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	<title>Comments on: The Death of Modesty</title>
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		<title>By: AFF Doublethink Online &#187; Game Over</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10886</link>
		<dc:creator>AFF Doublethink Online &#187; Game Over</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Apr 2010 02:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10886</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Commenting on the Postmodern Conservative blog, Samuel Goldman writes: [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Commenting on the Postmodern Conservative blog, Samuel Goldman writes: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Presnall</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10330</link>
		<dc:creator>John Presnall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10330</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The rock band Sonic Youth has an album called Confusion Is Sex. That statement is probably truer than most are willing to admit these days--even though the record came out nearly 25 years ago.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The rock band Sonic Youth has an album called Confusion Is Sex. That statement is probably truer than most are willing to admit these days&#8211;even though the record came out nearly 25 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10293</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, I think the real problem, at least for most people, is more confusion than depravity. Lack of standards and cues, etc. Also, the young often take their bearings by extreme cases, which seem more exciting and authentic. So in that respect, bad examples like those Allen reports are significant even if not exactly representative. 

The other important fact, which Allen mentions, is that the  upper classes nevertheless get married and have children at something resembling 1950s rates. So where&#039;s their virtue coming from? On the other hand, it&#039;s the middle class and the poor whose sexual/family structures have collapsed. Which suggests that there&#039;s more to the problem than &quot;culture&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the real problem, at least for most people, is more confusion than depravity. Lack of standards and cues, etc. Also, the young often take their bearings by extreme cases, which seem more exciting and authentic. So in that respect, bad examples like those Allen reports are significant even if not exactly representative. </p>
<p>The other important fact, which Allen mentions, is that the  upper classes nevertheless get married and have children at something resembling 1950s rates. So where&#8217;s their virtue coming from? On the other hand, it&#8217;s the middle class and the poor whose sexual/family structures have collapsed. Which suggests that there&#8217;s more to the problem than &#8220;culture&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralph Hancock</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10291</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralph Hancock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 04:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m glad I&#039;m not the only one who was &quot;shocked&quot; by CA&#039;s article -- and living here in my still pretty chaste religious enclave, I was glad to hear some of you &quot;say it ain&#039;t so.&quot;  It can&#039;t be as bad as what Allen portrays, I suppose.  But even if the utterly thoughtless promiscuity remains very much the exception, is it not undeniable that &quot;the dating game&quot; has broken down to a critical degree, that men and women no longer know what to ask of each other and thus how to educate each other in manhood and womanhood?  Even among very chaste and very traditional youth, the negotiation between the sexes has become so wide open that the chances of finding even a somewhat harmonious accommodation have become more and more remote.  And the separation of child-bearing from marriage is deeply alarming. I remember a conversation some good religious young women let me overhear at a conference, in which they deplored the sexual economy in which the availability of promiscuous girls  made it very difficult for good girls to retain the interest of boys and induce them to become men.  So we may not have descended to the Cro-Magnon, but something is deeply awry.  I wonder if we&#039;ve crossed a point of no return as concerns transmitting a minimal degree of virtue to the next generation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;m not the only one who was &#8220;shocked&#8221; by CA&#8217;s article &#8212; and living here in my still pretty chaste religious enclave, I was glad to hear some of you &#8220;say it ain&#8217;t so.&#8221;  It can&#8217;t be as bad as what Allen portrays, I suppose.  But even if the utterly thoughtless promiscuity remains very much the exception, is it not undeniable that &#8220;the dating game&#8221; has broken down to a critical degree, that men and women no longer know what to ask of each other and thus how to educate each other in manhood and womanhood?  Even among very chaste and very traditional youth, the negotiation between the sexes has become so wide open that the chances of finding even a somewhat harmonious accommodation have become more and more remote.  And the separation of child-bearing from marriage is deeply alarming. I remember a conversation some good religious young women let me overhear at a conference, in which they deplored the sexual economy in which the availability of promiscuous girls  made it very difficult for good girls to retain the interest of boys and induce them to become men.  So we may not have descended to the Cro-Magnon, but something is deeply awry.  I wonder if we&#8217;ve crossed a point of no return as concerns transmitting a minimal degree of virtue to the next generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Alias Clio</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10288</link>
		<dc:creator>Alias Clio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Commentators here appear to have missed, not the point, but the essence, of Ms Allen&#039;s article. 

The fact is that fewer people marry today than was typical during earlier periods in American history, and they have fewer children. Upper-middle-class women enjoy a period of sowing wild oats before marriage, and the kind of men they choose during this phase of their lives are usually not the ones likely to make good husbands. 

That is where Game comes in. Men find that they need to develop a certain kind of manner - let&#039;s call it cocky indifference rather than talking about alphas here - in order to sell themselves in this sexual market. Those who fail to do so become spiteful and frustrated; those who succeed become cynical about female nature. This trend is as yet too recent to have had much impact on marriage patterns - the urban middle classes still get married eventually, and their divorce rates are actually down - but that may change. 

As for people outside the big cities, they may have fewer sexual partners than in NYC, but that doesn&#039;t mean that women in smaller or less sophisticated communities aren&#039;t choosing exciting men over good husband material, while their male counterparts choose &quot;Girls Gone Wild&quot; over women who could make good wives. Worse, their children, especially at lower social levels, are more likely to be born out of wedlock. So it&#039;s quite possible that here, too, the &quot;alpha&quot; male is the more sexually successful, even if these women have 3.3 sexual partners rather than 20 over the course of a lifetime. 

The social, economic, and even spiritual implications of these facts are not good. 

Full disclosure: Charlotte Allen cites me in her article.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commentators here appear to have missed, not the point, but the essence, of Ms Allen&#8217;s article. </p>
<p>The fact is that fewer people marry today than was typical during earlier periods in American history, and they have fewer children. Upper-middle-class women enjoy a period of sowing wild oats before marriage, and the kind of men they choose during this phase of their lives are usually not the ones likely to make good husbands. </p>
<p>That is where Game comes in. Men find that they need to develop a certain kind of manner &#8211; let&#8217;s call it cocky indifference rather than talking about alphas here &#8211; in order to sell themselves in this sexual market. Those who fail to do so become spiteful and frustrated; those who succeed become cynical about female nature. This trend is as yet too recent to have had much impact on marriage patterns &#8211; the urban middle classes still get married eventually, and their divorce rates are actually down &#8211; but that may change. </p>
<p>As for people outside the big cities, they may have fewer sexual partners than in NYC, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that women in smaller or less sophisticated communities aren&#8217;t choosing exciting men over good husband material, while their male counterparts choose &#8220;Girls Gone Wild&#8221; over women who could make good wives. Worse, their children, especially at lower social levels, are more likely to be born out of wedlock. So it&#8217;s quite possible that here, too, the &#8220;alpha&#8221; male is the more sexually successful, even if these women have 3.3 sexual partners rather than 20 over the course of a lifetime. </p>
<p>The social, economic, and even spiritual implications of these facts are not good. </p>
<p>Full disclosure: Charlotte Allen cites me in her article.</p>
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		<title>By: Thursday</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10287</link>
		<dc:creator>Thursday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the links aren&#039;t coming up, my blog is at:
manwhoisthursday.blogspot.com
The article is:
How Social Conservatives and Traditionalists Got It Wrong About Female Sexuality

Slumlord is at:
socialpathology.blogspot.com
His article is:
Traditionalism and Female Sexuality]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the links aren&#8217;t coming up, my blog is at:<br />
manwhoisthursday.blogspot.com<br />
The article is:<br />
How Social Conservatives and Traditionalists Got It Wrong About Female Sexuality</p>
<p>Slumlord is at:<br />
socialpathology.blogspot.com<br />
His article is:<br />
Traditionalism and Female Sexuality</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10286</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve kept an eye on the sites she mentions recently, ones associated with the HBD/Sailer/Mangan crowd. I&#039;m 24, recently out of college, and, though I can&#039;t compare to the Disco era, the article&#039;s portrayal does seem more accurate than not in urban anonymity, certainly the bar scene. I&#039;ve lived in LA, where it&#039;s quite evident, and Houston, where it&#039;s tamer but noticeable. And those from small towns usually find no problems fitting in. Obviously our inherent temptations are the same as before, only now, and from an early age, it&#039;s assumed, even encouraged, that they&#039;re &quot;perfectly normal, natural and healthy,&quot; w/restraint being repressively naive. Christian churchgoers usually assume the same attitude, maybe drawing the line at intercourse or insisting it&#039;s long-term. (Of two female youth ministers I know, one&#039;s very promiscuous, the other - the most devout - doing &quot;everything but.&quot;) And their rationale is almost always rooted in the merely practical, eg: reputation. I&#039;ve not met one person opposed to contraception.

Most &quot;gamers&quot; use evolutionary psychology and tend to reduce everyone to his animal nature by suggestion. For these materialist reductionists, to understand a woman&#039;s instinctual (fallen) bio nature is tantamount to understanding women per se. Transcendence is eliminated from the start, so their cynicism merits no surprise. Many complain of being lied to about female sexuality, probably when their virgin/whore dualism is invalidated.

Inevitably, you get hedonistic nihilism, and &quot;let&#039;s manipulate nature toward our own ends.&quot; It works, because of either widespread materialism or dualism. The latter especially embraces a distinction made between Alpha and Beta, both corresponding to a woman&#039;s dualistic attractions, which are viewed as contradictory. A girl goes for a Beta possibly only in a purely mental (thus non-existent or weakened) manner; she only truly wants the Alpha, since her strictly instinctual sexuality must be running the show. Most guys then believe they must be one of two exclusive disjuncts (obvious choice for secularists: moral-free, weak, approval-seeking kindness or loud, proud, pleasurable disrespect; either/or despair for Christians: neutered egalitarianism or &quot;misogynistic&quot; promiscuity). Allegedly, the girl confusedly tries to use an alpha for a beta&#039;s job or else lets the government replace beta. Liberal feminists help her.

The Game Movement is viewed as a counter-attack on feminists, who essentially attempt to deny natural biological reality, or separate the rational and the natural to reform the second with their own ideas in the first. (Re-)formalists v. materialists, rationalists v. empiricists. Game is more like a radical, reductionist refutation of rationalists.

It seems every time you divorce the rational from the material, the irrational material wins, getting all the cheapened belongings of the now seemingly useless rational-formal. (Hm, apparently the sexes follow respectively.) As always, we need more Aristotle and Thomas to help bridge the &quot;gap&quot; and solve the problem of male/female interaction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve kept an eye on the sites she mentions recently, ones associated with the HBD/Sailer/Mangan crowd. I&#8217;m 24, recently out of college, and, though I can&#8217;t compare to the Disco era, the article&#8217;s portrayal does seem more accurate than not in urban anonymity, certainly the bar scene. I&#8217;ve lived in LA, where it&#8217;s quite evident, and Houston, where it&#8217;s tamer but noticeable. And those from small towns usually find no problems fitting in. Obviously our inherent temptations are the same as before, only now, and from an early age, it&#8217;s assumed, even encouraged, that they&#8217;re &#8220;perfectly normal, natural and healthy,&#8221; w/restraint being repressively naive. Christian churchgoers usually assume the same attitude, maybe drawing the line at intercourse or insisting it&#8217;s long-term. (Of two female youth ministers I know, one&#8217;s very promiscuous, the other &#8211; the most devout &#8211; doing &#8220;everything but.&#8221;) And their rationale is almost always rooted in the merely practical, eg: reputation. I&#8217;ve not met one person opposed to contraception.</p>
<p>Most &#8220;gamers&#8221; use evolutionary psychology and tend to reduce everyone to his animal nature by suggestion. For these materialist reductionists, to understand a woman&#8217;s instinctual (fallen) bio nature is tantamount to understanding women per se. Transcendence is eliminated from the start, so their cynicism merits no surprise. Many complain of being lied to about female sexuality, probably when their virgin/whore dualism is invalidated.</p>
<p>Inevitably, you get hedonistic nihilism, and &#8220;let&#8217;s manipulate nature toward our own ends.&#8221; It works, because of either widespread materialism or dualism. The latter especially embraces a distinction made between Alpha and Beta, both corresponding to a woman&#8217;s dualistic attractions, which are viewed as contradictory. A girl goes for a Beta possibly only in a purely mental (thus non-existent or weakened) manner; she only truly wants the Alpha, since her strictly instinctual sexuality must be running the show. Most guys then believe they must be one of two exclusive disjuncts (obvious choice for secularists: moral-free, weak, approval-seeking kindness or loud, proud, pleasurable disrespect; either/or despair for Christians: neutered egalitarianism or &#8220;misogynistic&#8221; promiscuity). Allegedly, the girl confusedly tries to use an alpha for a beta&#8217;s job or else lets the government replace beta. Liberal feminists help her.</p>
<p>The Game Movement is viewed as a counter-attack on feminists, who essentially attempt to deny natural biological reality, or separate the rational and the natural to reform the second with their own ideas in the first. (Re-)formalists v. materialists, rationalists v. empiricists. Game is more like a radical, reductionist refutation of rationalists.</p>
<p>It seems every time you divorce the rational from the material, the irrational material wins, getting all the cheapened belongings of the now seemingly useless rational-formal. (Hm, apparently the sexes follow respectively.) As always, we need more Aristotle and Thomas to help bridge the &#8220;gap&#8221; and solve the problem of male/female interaction.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Cheeks</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10285</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Cheeks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter,...oh! You know I&#039;m always on guard to defend the beloved South, warts and all!
Re: Dr. Ceaser&#039;s blog, you make a good point of foreground/background. I just wonder about the pernicious effects of the &#039;women&#039;s lib&#039; movement, the acceptance of abortion, and the effort to eclipse the differences between little boys and little girls e.g. the idiot Left in general. 
Philosopher&#039;s in general have let us down in the past fifty years or so, but not you and your colleagues writing here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,&#8230;oh! You know I&#8217;m always on guard to defend the beloved South, warts and all!<br />
Re: Dr. Ceaser&#8217;s blog, you make a good point of foreground/background. I just wonder about the pernicious effects of the &#8216;women&#8217;s lib&#8217; movement, the acceptance of abortion, and the effort to eclipse the differences between little boys and little girls e.g. the idiot Left in general.<br />
Philosopher&#8217;s in general have let us down in the past fifty years or so, but not you and your colleagues writing here.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10284</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bob, I thought I was praising the stoic southerners while acknowledging that their fatalistic acceptance of slavery and later segregation was unjust.
I also agree that young people sound coarser but maybe don&#039;t act that much differently than the decadent Disco days of Stillman.  But it&#039;s still really bad that what used to be background has become foreground, and was used to be subtext has become really gross text.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, I thought I was praising the stoic southerners while acknowledging that their fatalistic acceptance of slavery and later segregation was unjust.<br />
I also agree that young people sound coarser but maybe don&#8217;t act that much differently than the decadent Disco days of Stillman.  But it&#8217;s still really bad that what used to be background has become foreground, and was used to be subtext has become really gross text.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Cheeks</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/17/the-death-of-modesty/comment-page-1/#comment-10282</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Cheeks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1870#comment-10282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Where I dissent from the Porchers in some measure, I guess, is by remembering that manners are always somewhat ARISTOCRATIC, and our stoic southerners did provide us manners and morals, if also injustice (as did the old WASP ESTABLISHMENT).&quot;
Well, Peter, I darn near choked on my peanut butter and jelly sammich. Those &quot;stoic southerners&quot; did pretty darn well considering the cultural milieu and acceptance of the status of African chattel slavery.
RE: the question, I&#039;m not sure about how sexually active kids are today. You&#039;d think given the proclivity of STD&#039;s, pregnancy, and what&#039;s left of our cultural prohibitions that teen (or younger) sexual activity would be in decline. Then there&#039;s the NEW goodnight kiss!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Where I dissent from the Porchers in some measure, I guess, is by remembering that manners are always somewhat ARISTOCRATIC, and our stoic southerners did provide us manners and morals, if also injustice (as did the old WASP ESTABLISHMENT).&#8221;<br />
Well, Peter, I darn near choked on my peanut butter and jelly sammich. Those &#8220;stoic southerners&#8221; did pretty darn well considering the cultural milieu and acceptance of the status of African chattel slavery.<br />
RE: the question, I&#8217;m not sure about how sexually active kids are today. You&#8217;d think given the proclivity of STD&#8217;s, pregnancy, and what&#8217;s left of our cultural prohibitions that teen (or younger) sexual activity would be in decline. Then there&#8217;s the NEW goodnight kiss!</p>
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