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	<title>Comments on: Conservatism and the Establishment</title>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10335</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well the thing, samuel goldman, is that deneen is right that we have lost so much and really are on the brink of destruction, especially considering the real fragility of our own &quot;systems&quot; that have brought in general level MUCH greater &quot;gems&quot; and we do have a meritocracy to thank for that.  So I understand Deneen&#039;s position to be the best well suited... Maybe it is existential obviously it is quite contrary to reality and also the byproduct of the idea that -- I can build this right -- through an allowance of consciousness to reign supreme as the greatest human virtues.  Though at the same time that seems contradictory as Rous said consciousness was our greatest weakness.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the thing, samuel goldman, is that deneen is right that we have lost so much and really are on the brink of destruction, especially considering the real fragility of our own &#8220;systems&#8221; that have brought in general level MUCH greater &#8220;gems&#8221; and we do have a meritocracy to thank for that.  So I understand Deneen&#8217;s position to be the best well suited&#8230; Maybe it is existential obviously it is quite contrary to reality and also the byproduct of the idea that &#8212; I can build this right &#8212; through an allowance of consciousness to reign supreme as the greatest human virtues.  Though at the same time that seems contradictory as Rous said consciousness was our greatest weakness.</p>
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		<title>By: Ignim Brites</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10319</link>
		<dc:creator>Ignim Brites</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is it possible that the meritocracy is just badly educated and therefore cannot receive a mandate of heaven?  Contrast say the elite education of John Kerry, George Bush or Barak Obama with the high school education of Harry Truman.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it possible that the meritocracy is just badly educated and therefore cannot receive a mandate of heaven?  Contrast say the elite education of John Kerry, George Bush or Barak Obama with the high school education of Harry Truman.</p>
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		<title>By: David G.</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10316</link>
		<dc:creator>David G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam,

So, I&#039;m late in joining this discussion... From a simple (perhaps simplistic) view, my sense is that the nature of the elite shifted in the Progressive Era, and what we got was a transition from Gilded Age elites to the responsible elites of the mid-20th C. What we&#039;ve seen in the last few decades is, as you say, a turnover of power from that old vanguard to a new, shifting elite, with none of the same sense of responsibility. But, if we cover, say, 1880 to 1980, we don&#039;t see a uniform decline in elite responsibility, but rather a bowed curve: gilded elites give way to the progressive era and depression/WWII era elites (who, I agree, were a good lot on the whole!) and then, via deregulation, turnover in the composition of the elite, financialization of the economy, etc., - in short, the current mess. Interestingly, the shifting nature of the elite corresponds to a much stronger grip of elites over general society than earlier - hence, we return to Gilded Age era levels of economic inequality, in contrast to much of the 20th C.

I can think of two general factors at least that might account for these changes. The first is geopolitical: 20th C. elites were hemmed in at home by a strong labor movement and abroad by Cold War geopolitics, and needed to show that the American system produced a better outcome, even for the little guy, than either outright Communism, or all the socialist variants then being tried in Europe, and proposed here. So there was a serious prudential need for constraint, and somehow the elites largely pulled off coordinating that restraint. There&#039;s no such need now. As vulgar and short-sighted as American elites are today, they are examples of virtue and modesty in comparison to the nouveaux riches of the Middle East, Russia, China, and India, alas.

But a second, perhaps even more important shift is generational. If the Gilded Age fortunes represented a disproportionate number of nouveaux riches - eager for more, eager for display, and insecure in their status - then perhaps their children and grandchildren grew up embarrassed by vulgar display, secure in status, and motivated by a broader sense of purpose (since Dad had already made the fortune, but was also a difficult bastard). If this is the case, perhaps we can hope that the children of today&#039;s reckless financiers will want to become decent professionals, mayors, doctors, academics, etc. and imbue those professions with internal codes of conduct that emphasize personal virtue, public good, and non-market discipline.

A final point about the ethnic composition of the elite: the Gilded Age folks were just as WASP as their 20th C. successors; so WASP virtue isn&#039;t necessarily - or just - WASP per se. After all, the mid-20th C. elite had large numbers of German Jews, who worked alongside (and often intermarried) with WASPs, and had the same sense of restraint and public purpose. Of course, in many cases, WASPs and non-WASPs alike were educated at the same boarding schools and elite universities that emphasized a certain esprit de corps and made general abstention a virtue. At elite schools today, of course, the virtue of abstention - of modesty, of holding back, of civility - is largely missing, and students are taught to promote themselves ruthlessly in order to get ahead. Which has, as you say, produced a very different America...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>So, I&#8217;m late in joining this discussion&#8230; From a simple (perhaps simplistic) view, my sense is that the nature of the elite shifted in the Progressive Era, and what we got was a transition from Gilded Age elites to the responsible elites of the mid-20th C. What we&#8217;ve seen in the last few decades is, as you say, a turnover of power from that old vanguard to a new, shifting elite, with none of the same sense of responsibility. But, if we cover, say, 1880 to 1980, we don&#8217;t see a uniform decline in elite responsibility, but rather a bowed curve: gilded elites give way to the progressive era and depression/WWII era elites (who, I agree, were a good lot on the whole!) and then, via deregulation, turnover in the composition of the elite, financialization of the economy, etc., &#8211; in short, the current mess. Interestingly, the shifting nature of the elite corresponds to a much stronger grip of elites over general society than earlier &#8211; hence, we return to Gilded Age era levels of economic inequality, in contrast to much of the 20th C.</p>
<p>I can think of two general factors at least that might account for these changes. The first is geopolitical: 20th C. elites were hemmed in at home by a strong labor movement and abroad by Cold War geopolitics, and needed to show that the American system produced a better outcome, even for the little guy, than either outright Communism, or all the socialist variants then being tried in Europe, and proposed here. So there was a serious prudential need for constraint, and somehow the elites largely pulled off coordinating that restraint. There&#8217;s no such need now. As vulgar and short-sighted as American elites are today, they are examples of virtue and modesty in comparison to the nouveaux riches of the Middle East, Russia, China, and India, alas.</p>
<p>But a second, perhaps even more important shift is generational. If the Gilded Age fortunes represented a disproportionate number of nouveaux riches &#8211; eager for more, eager for display, and insecure in their status &#8211; then perhaps their children and grandchildren grew up embarrassed by vulgar display, secure in status, and motivated by a broader sense of purpose (since Dad had already made the fortune, but was also a difficult bastard). If this is the case, perhaps we can hope that the children of today&#8217;s reckless financiers will want to become decent professionals, mayors, doctors, academics, etc. and imbue those professions with internal codes of conduct that emphasize personal virtue, public good, and non-market discipline.</p>
<p>A final point about the ethnic composition of the elite: the Gilded Age folks were just as WASP as their 20th C. successors; so WASP virtue isn&#8217;t necessarily &#8211; or just &#8211; WASP per se. After all, the mid-20th C. elite had large numbers of German Jews, who worked alongside (and often intermarried) with WASPs, and had the same sense of restraint and public purpose. Of course, in many cases, WASPs and non-WASPs alike were educated at the same boarding schools and elite universities that emphasized a certain esprit de corps and made general abstention a virtue. At elite schools today, of course, the virtue of abstention &#8211; of modesty, of holding back, of civility &#8211; is largely missing, and students are taught to promote themselves ruthlessly in order to get ahead. Which has, as you say, produced a very different America&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10315</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Bob--I wish I knew exactly why the establishment collapsed. Probably a lot of reasons, of which the biggest may have been the democratizing trend introduced by World War II. Also, of course, the revolt of The Youf in the &#039;60s. One of the big differences between the New Left and liberals who become the original neo-conservatives (whom I admire very much) was that the latter wanted to open up the establishment to talent, the former to destroy it. In any case, it&#039;s gone, and replaced, as you observe, by a cruder, richer, more venal meritocracy. There&#039;s probably not much we can do about this, which is why my feelings about &quot;populism&quot; are so mixed.

@Whipper Snapper--You may be right about the ratio of gems to crap. But would you argue that the general level is higher today? 

@Greg--This may not be the kind of premise that can be &quot;established&quot;. As our own Peter Lawler might say, things used to be both better and worse. Better, perhaps, in the spirit of public service or noblesse oblige. Worse in the injustice involved in any stable ruling class.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bob&#8211;I wish I knew exactly why the establishment collapsed. Probably a lot of reasons, of which the biggest may have been the democratizing trend introduced by World War II. Also, of course, the revolt of The Youf in the &#8217;60s. One of the big differences between the New Left and liberals who become the original neo-conservatives (whom I admire very much) was that the latter wanted to open up the establishment to talent, the former to destroy it. In any case, it&#8217;s gone, and replaced, as you observe, by a cruder, richer, more venal meritocracy. There&#8217;s probably not much we can do about this, which is why my feelings about &#8220;populism&#8221; are so mixed.</p>
<p>@Whipper Snapper&#8211;You may be right about the ratio of gems to crap. But would you argue that the general level is higher today? </p>
<p>@Greg&#8211;This may not be the kind of premise that can be &#8220;established&#8221;. As our own Peter Lawler might say, things used to be both better and worse. Better, perhaps, in the spirit of public service or noblesse oblige. Worse in the injustice involved in any stable ruling class.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Marquez</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10314</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Marquez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 04:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know you guys are all the smart guys and usins is just a bunch of dummies, but it seems to me that youins have failed to establish your premise which seems like it kinda shoulda be that things were never worse than they are now back when all those white guys were runnin things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know you guys are all the smart guys and usins is just a bunch of dummies, but it seems to me that youins have failed to establish your premise which seems like it kinda shoulda be that things were never worse than they are now back when all those white guys were runnin things.</p>
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		<title>By: Whipper Snapper 4891</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10313</link>
		<dc:creator>Whipper Snapper 4891</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 21:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Elitism just brought us a smaller output. It didn&#039;t bring us any better output. 

We have more crap but we have more gems today.

So yes, we are better informed and better entertained that ever before. There greater access to information and media and greater ability to produce it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elitism just brought us a smaller output. It didn&#8217;t bring us any better output. </p>
<p>We have more crap but we have more gems today.</p>
<p>So yes, we are better informed and better entertained that ever before. There greater access to information and media and greater ability to produce it.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Cheeks</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10312</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Cheeks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 21:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10312</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam, I&#039;m less concerned about the goals and make up of the TPers than I am by the elitist collapse. 
I think without a proper aristocracy, in a Jeffersonian sense, we&#039;re in serious trouble.
I would really like your blogged opinion, from the bricked walk ways of Harvard Yard, as to the specifics of why this phenomenon has occurred, the potential effect (I don&#039;t think we&#039;ve experienced that yet), and how as a polity we might address the problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, I&#8217;m less concerned about the goals and make up of the TPers than I am by the elitist collapse.<br />
I think without a proper aristocracy, in a Jeffersonian sense, we&#8217;re in serious trouble.<br />
I would really like your blogged opinion, from the bricked walk ways of Harvard Yard, as to the specifics of why this phenomenon has occurred, the potential effect (I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;ve experienced that yet), and how as a polity we might address the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10309</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Experience in public affairs may also be called &quot;selling out.&quot;  Where, after all, do you get this experience?  So lack of it may indeed be regarded as a virtue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Experience in public affairs may also be called &#8220;selling out.&#8221;  Where, after all, do you get this experience?  So lack of it may indeed be regarded as a virtue.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10308</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bob: I agree with you that people have good reason to be angry. Moreover, I think they&#039;re right to blame short-sighted CEOs, feckless politicians, etc. The point I was trying to make is that these are the results of the new &quot;meritocratic&quot; elite that replaced the old establishment. And I&#039;m not certain that was a good thing. 

Carl:I didn&#039;t bring up the neocon connection. But if it makes you happier to say interventionists (a category that includes many Democrats and liberals), fine. We can talk about Washington another day. Of course his foreign policy views were complicated--but really not that complicated, I think.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob: I agree with you that people have good reason to be angry. Moreover, I think they&#8217;re right to blame short-sighted CEOs, feckless politicians, etc. The point I was trying to make is that these are the results of the new &#8220;meritocratic&#8221; elite that replaced the old establishment. And I&#8217;m not certain that was a good thing. </p>
<p>Carl:I didn&#8217;t bring up the neocon connection. But if it makes you happier to say interventionists (a category that includes many Democrats and liberals), fine. We can talk about Washington another day. Of course his foreign policy views were complicated&#8211;but really not that complicated, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/19/conservatism-and-the-establishment/comment-page-1/#comment-10307</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1877#comment-10307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A fine post and a worthy discussion.  I&#039;m pretty much with Bob, who recognizes that the Teaparty movement is as conservative as it is populist.  I would add that it is a) middle-class, b) more educationally diverse than you&#039;d think, and c) that &quot;what it is&quot; is (within certain limits) pretty much up for grabs, so that the &quot;teaparty&quot; will likely be soon dividing into various factions claiming that they represent the true doctrine.  

Oh, and it&#039;s not very important here, but Samuel seems to have a simplistic view of what &quot;neocons&quot; are and what Washington&#039;s foreign policy approach was.  Which isn&#039;t to say that a teaparty adoption of a foreign-policy approach defined by an opposite-of-Obama aggressiveness wouldn&#039;t be a very much more simplistic and dangerous thing.  Then again, my impression is that the teapartiers aren&#039;t staking claim to a definite foreign policy stance, so as to allow their members to unite on domestic concerns.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fine post and a worthy discussion.  I&#8217;m pretty much with Bob, who recognizes that the Teaparty movement is as conservative as it is populist.  I would add that it is a) middle-class, b) more educationally diverse than you&#8217;d think, and c) that &#8220;what it is&#8221; is (within certain limits) pretty much up for grabs, so that the &#8220;teaparty&#8221; will likely be soon dividing into various factions claiming that they represent the true doctrine.  </p>
<p>Oh, and it&#8217;s not very important here, but Samuel seems to have a simplistic view of what &#8220;neocons&#8221; are and what Washington&#8217;s foreign policy approach was.  Which isn&#8217;t to say that a teaparty adoption of a foreign-policy approach defined by an opposite-of-Obama aggressiveness wouldn&#8217;t be a very much more simplistic and dangerous thing.  Then again, my impression is that the teapartiers aren&#8217;t staking claim to a definite foreign policy stance, so as to allow their members to unite on domestic concerns.</p>
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