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	<title>Comments on: Two Concepts of Exceptionalism</title>
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		<title>By: Weekend Reading: Brief Excerpts from Around the Web &#124; Mere Orthodoxy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10356</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekend Reading: Brief Excerpts from Around the Web &#124; Mere Orthodoxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 04:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10356</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Articles of Interest &#124; 0 Comments`   The PoMoCons have been taking on the exceptionalism piece.  See Samuel Goldman&#8217;s piece here, and this from James Poulos: Arguing the merits of this case is important, but I’m more [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Articles of Interest | 0 Comments`   The PoMoCons have been taking on the exceptionalism piece.  See Samuel Goldman&#8217;s piece here, and this from James Poulos: Arguing the merits of this case is important, but I’m more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Root of Evangelical and Mormon Political Conflict? &#124; Article VI Blog &#124; John Schroeder</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10355</link>
		<dc:creator>A Root of Evangelical and Mormon Political Conflict? &#124; Article VI Blog &#124; John Schroeder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 04:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Samuel Goldman finds them imprecise: But the most serious problem is conceptual. Lowry and Ponnuru don’t distinguish between two ideas, one of which can be called American exceptionalism, the other American exclusivism. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Samuel Goldman finds them imprecise: But the most serious problem is conceptual. Lowry and Ponnuru don’t distinguish between two ideas, one of which can be called American exceptionalism, the other American exclusivism. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10352</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe the article overstates the role of military interventionism Americanism; but it really only treats this as a corrolary of American exceptionalism.  Their argument about what makes America exceptional, and the claim that Obama&#039;s domestic agenda threatens this, is worth considering.
&quot;American ideas are open to interpretation.&quot;  Certainly.  However, they are also open to rejection, and Ponnuru and Lowry claim that Obama draws on a strand of thought that consciously and coherently rejects them.  I don&#039;t think P and L&#039;s case rests on the idea that Obama is not a movement conservative.  Many people who were not movement conservatives rejected, for instance, FDR&#039;s court packing, Truman&#039;s claims of Presidential power in the steel seizure case.  Many people who are not movement conservatives, who recently were telling pollsters that they desired health care reform, and who would not mind tinkering with &quot;our particular blend of public subsidy and private profit,&quot; find themselves nevertheless strongly opposing Obamacare.  These include some on the left who dislike the corporatism involved in the individual mandate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the article overstates the role of military interventionism Americanism; but it really only treats this as a corrolary of American exceptionalism.  Their argument about what makes America exceptional, and the claim that Obama&#8217;s domestic agenda threatens this, is worth considering.<br />
&#8220;American ideas are open to interpretation.&#8221;  Certainly.  However, they are also open to rejection, and Ponnuru and Lowry claim that Obama draws on a strand of thought that consciously and coherently rejects them.  I don&#8217;t think P and L&#8217;s case rests on the idea that Obama is not a movement conservative.  Many people who were not movement conservatives rejected, for instance, FDR&#8217;s court packing, Truman&#8217;s claims of Presidential power in the steel seizure case.  Many people who are not movement conservatives, who recently were telling pollsters that they desired health care reform, and who would not mind tinkering with &#8220;our particular blend of public subsidy and private profit,&#8221; find themselves nevertheless strongly opposing Obamacare.  These include some on the left who dislike the corporatism involved in the individual mandate.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Spiliakos</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10351</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Spiliakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10351</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Goldman (or Samuel if that is not too bold), thank you for a civil reply to what might have been a dyspeptic comment by me.  I think it is true that there is probably a linkage between Wilson&#039;s domestic hyperactivity and foreign policy grandiosity, but I think it is very problematical to generalize from Wilson to other political actors and situations.  There are, after all, many countries that combine fewer foreign policy responsibilities and a smaller military than the US but who have a more statist domestic politics.  

There are mutliple points where the size of the US military and the scope and nature of US security commitments determine the statism of our domestic politics.  Our current military, and the commitments that go with it, would, by itself, make a return to a Jeffersonian-type federal state impossible.  But it doesn&#039;t really preclude a return to Jeffersonian small government, because even the complete abandonment of American collective security arrangements and the slashing of the defense budget by any amount you might choose won&#039;t bring about Jeffersonian small government and neither will anything else.  

At the other extreme, a WWII-style mobilization would also call into being a much larger and more controlling domestic state.  Let us pray (and for many reasons) that such a thing is both never again needed and never happens.  But within the current parameters of American politics, the current size of the military and the scope of our security arrangements neither helps nor hinders either those who seek to expand the size and scope of the state, nor those who seek to limit the state.  When it comes to controlling entitlement costs, reforming health care along either state-run or more free market lines, producing a more corporatist or competetive economy, or fostering a more or less technocratic political culture, abanonment of collective security (to either a smaller or greater degree) and cutting the military will not be central to the outcome of those struggles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Goldman (or Samuel if that is not too bold), thank you for a civil reply to what might have been a dyspeptic comment by me.  I think it is true that there is probably a linkage between Wilson&#8217;s domestic hyperactivity and foreign policy grandiosity, but I think it is very problematical to generalize from Wilson to other political actors and situations.  There are, after all, many countries that combine fewer foreign policy responsibilities and a smaller military than the US but who have a more statist domestic politics.  </p>
<p>There are mutliple points where the size of the US military and the scope and nature of US security commitments determine the statism of our domestic politics.  Our current military, and the commitments that go with it, would, by itself, make a return to a Jeffersonian-type federal state impossible.  But it doesn&#8217;t really preclude a return to Jeffersonian small government, because even the complete abandonment of American collective security arrangements and the slashing of the defense budget by any amount you might choose won&#8217;t bring about Jeffersonian small government and neither will anything else.  </p>
<p>At the other extreme, a WWII-style mobilization would also call into being a much larger and more controlling domestic state.  Let us pray (and for many reasons) that such a thing is both never again needed and never happens.  But within the current parameters of American politics, the current size of the military and the scope of our security arrangements neither helps nor hinders either those who seek to expand the size and scope of the state, nor those who seek to limit the state.  When it comes to controlling entitlement costs, reforming health care along either state-run or more free market lines, producing a more corporatist or competetive economy, or fostering a more or less technocratic political culture, abanonment of collective security (to either a smaller or greater degree) and cutting the military will not be central to the outcome of those struggles.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10344</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pete, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Your reading of the piece is more charitable than mine. I think you&#039;re right to point out conservatives&#039; schizophrenia re: Wilson. The Goldberg types seem unable to understand the integral relation between the Wilsonian conception of foreign policy and the Wilsonian/corporatist conception of the domestic state. This was pointed by Robert Nisbet a long time ago.

I also appreciate the distinction between America being in the wrong and being wrong. I&#039;m certainly not defending the Zinn/Chomsky view that America is exceptionally evil.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Your reading of the piece is more charitable than mine. I think you&#8217;re right to point out conservatives&#8217; schizophrenia re: Wilson. The Goldberg types seem unable to understand the integral relation between the Wilsonian conception of foreign policy and the Wilsonian/corporatist conception of the domestic state. This was pointed by Robert Nisbet a long time ago.</p>
<p>I also appreciate the distinction between America being in the wrong and being wrong. I&#8217;m certainly not defending the Zinn/Chomsky view that America is exceptionally evil.</p>
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		<title>By: My, That Is An Exceptional 6 Train &#171; Around The Sphere</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10342</link>
		<dc:creator>My, That Is An Exceptional 6 Train &#171; Around The Sphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Samuel Goldman at PomoCon [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Samuel Goldman at PomoCon [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Note On Exceptionalism &#187; Postmodern Conservative &#124; A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10341</link>
		<dc:creator>Note On Exceptionalism &#187; Postmodern Conservative &#124; A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10341</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Review and Weekly Standard wings of the Republican Party. It is not enough &#8212; and I think Lowry and Ponnuru recognize this &#8212; for the United States to be possessed of a unique character in the world, or [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Review and Weekly Standard wings of the Republican Party. It is not enough &#8212; and I think Lowry and Ponnuru recognize this &#8212; for the United States to be possessed of a unique character in the world, or [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Spiliakos</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/02/26/two-concepts-of-exceptionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-10339</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Spiliakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=1901#comment-10339</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Goldman, several points

1.  Many of the examples of distinct American political culture (as distinct from Wesetern Europe) that Lowry and Ponnuru cite are pre-Reaganite.  This is especially true of American attitudes toward the state.  These distinctions might be figments of the imagination, but they are not figments of conservative imagination.  Richard Hofstadter might have written many of the same things when it came to the role of the state in America though with a different spirit.

2.  I&#039;m not sure what fraction of conservative thinkers find Woodrow Wilson to be holy.  In the 1980s, George Will could compare Reagan to Wilson, mean it as high praise, and it seemd to cause little stir that I could tell.  Now, thanks largely to the work of the Claremont folks and Jonah Goldberg, I think conservative writers are more likely to see Wilson as a German-inspired enemy of American exceptionalism.  I think Wilson looms much larger in the imaginations of those on the Right who are much more suspicious of collective security arrangements and American military involvements than as an inspiration to the Lowrys and Ponnurus of the world.

3.  Lowry&#039;s and Ponnuru&#039;s are of course only one way to define an Ameican exceptionalism.  One could define it by an unwillingness o engage in collective security arrangements and international organizations outside of the Western Hemisphere, a far greater localism in our politics than we currently practice and other ways.  Each of these might make us exceptional from the perspective of Western Europe, but each would also have to be defended on their merits.

4. Lowry and Ponnuru never asserted that the US represented the only significant values or that all meaningful values are lost to the outside world .  I don&#039;t take them to deny the value of hope, faith and charity or that the Pope lacks any of those.  They seem to have asserted that there are certain distinct and desirable elments of American political culture that they would prefer to see preserved.

5.  I don&#039;t think that they argue that Obama is un-America, though no doubt other, cruder conservative writers will do just that.  One can believe that certain distinct elements of American political culture are detrimental, seek to change them, and still be American, love the USA and be willing to die for one&#039;s country.  Jim Crow might be said to have made America distinct from Norway.  We are certainly better off to not have Jim Crow and, in that one limited sense, be less distinct.  It again comes down to the merts of the distinctions that Lowry and Ponnuru draw.

6.  I don&#039;t take their general defense of American political culture and their generally positive view of the effect of American foreign policy on the world to imply either a junkyard dog defense of every American foreign involvement or to deny that American domestic political culture might have tolerated significant injustices in the past (slavery) or the present (Ponnuru wrote a book on that).  In that sense, the article certainly does not exclude the possibility that the US could both be doing wrong and being in the wrong.  To the extent that it denies the idea of the America BEING wrong in the Howard Zinn sense, then damn right.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Goldman, several points</p>
<p>1.  Many of the examples of distinct American political culture (as distinct from Wesetern Europe) that Lowry and Ponnuru cite are pre-Reaganite.  This is especially true of American attitudes toward the state.  These distinctions might be figments of the imagination, but they are not figments of conservative imagination.  Richard Hofstadter might have written many of the same things when it came to the role of the state in America though with a different spirit.</p>
<p>2.  I&#8217;m not sure what fraction of conservative thinkers find Woodrow Wilson to be holy.  In the 1980s, George Will could compare Reagan to Wilson, mean it as high praise, and it seemd to cause little stir that I could tell.  Now, thanks largely to the work of the Claremont folks and Jonah Goldberg, I think conservative writers are more likely to see Wilson as a German-inspired enemy of American exceptionalism.  I think Wilson looms much larger in the imaginations of those on the Right who are much more suspicious of collective security arrangements and American military involvements than as an inspiration to the Lowrys and Ponnurus of the world.</p>
<p>3.  Lowry&#8217;s and Ponnuru&#8217;s are of course only one way to define an Ameican exceptionalism.  One could define it by an unwillingness o engage in collective security arrangements and international organizations outside of the Western Hemisphere, a far greater localism in our politics than we currently practice and other ways.  Each of these might make us exceptional from the perspective of Western Europe, but each would also have to be defended on their merits.</p>
<p>4. Lowry and Ponnuru never asserted that the US represented the only significant values or that all meaningful values are lost to the outside world .  I don&#8217;t take them to deny the value of hope, faith and charity or that the Pope lacks any of those.  They seem to have asserted that there are certain distinct and desirable elments of American political culture that they would prefer to see preserved.</p>
<p>5.  I don&#8217;t think that they argue that Obama is un-America, though no doubt other, cruder conservative writers will do just that.  One can believe that certain distinct elements of American political culture are detrimental, seek to change them, and still be American, love the USA and be willing to die for one&#8217;s country.  Jim Crow might be said to have made America distinct from Norway.  We are certainly better off to not have Jim Crow and, in that one limited sense, be less distinct.  It again comes down to the merts of the distinctions that Lowry and Ponnuru draw.</p>
<p>6.  I don&#8217;t take their general defense of American political culture and their generally positive view of the effect of American foreign policy on the world to imply either a junkyard dog defense of every American foreign involvement or to deny that American domestic political culture might have tolerated significant injustices in the past (slavery) or the present (Ponnuru wrote a book on that).  In that sense, the article certainly does not exclude the possibility that the US could both be doing wrong and being in the wrong.  To the extent that it denies the idea of the America BEING wrong in the Howard Zinn sense, then damn right.</p>
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