Joseph Smith, as just a backwoods boy, age 14, the 3rd son of his parents, who had, at age 7, experienced almost losing a leg, and his life, with a boil that moved from his shoulder to his lower leg, which in turn infected the bone, causing portions of his leg bone to rot and die. Nathan Smith, a surgeon residing in Hanover, New Hampshire, 3 or so miles from Lebanon, where Joseph’s parents & their family resided, (co-founder of Yale Medical School – I believe), founder of Dartmouth Medical School (& one or two others during his lifetime), was THE pioneer in bone removal, such as was done on young Joseph Smith, in order to save his leg (which both he & his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, insisted upon).

Perhaps it was this life threatening experience that eventually led to Joseph Smith seeking to find out with which Christian church he should join. He said in his own account that by reason, he could not suppose that they (the Christian sects) were all God’s (is Christ divided)?

While praying, and this, audibly, he said, for the first time in his life, he says that a light appeared exactly above his head. In the light, he tells, were two personages, whom descended gradually until they were right above him, young Joseph claims, and he said they had a glory brighter than the noon day sun.”

First off, we must take note that his account, while extremely unique, at least in “our day”, is, nonetheless, fairly precise in its descriptions, it is, remarkably still, without conveys no attempt to exagerate.

Joseph relates in his own words the following—

“One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:17 – 20)

Note that Joseph said that Jesus Christ, (quoting, among other prophets, Isaiah), told him what he thought and felt and how he (Christ) regarded ALL relgions (& hence, one must suppose) religionists.

Here it is, once again—

“they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Now, as a father of nine children, seven of whom are girls, I have had many boys date my daughters. They, like many whom the Savior describes (again, using words Isaiah received undoubtedly from God) uses in regards to other religions, including sects of ‘traditional Christianity’.

Now, is there offense to take at this?

In my opinion, there is only offense to be taken if one is insufficiently humble to ever be corrected— and this, ESPECIALLY BY GOD!!!

Also, when traditional Christians say that we, the “odd folks out”, who disagree with them, to be sure, on certain KEY POINTS OF DOCTRINE, this is, I aver, where the ODD MAN OUT is ‘dead on’ correct, and the MANY, in this case, are in error!!!

One of you spoke at length on believing in the resurrection, first accomplished, we must be sure, by Jesus Christ himself.

That is all well and good, and comfortable to read about in the Bible in something that happened nearly two millennia past.

On the other hand, it is quite something else when HE WHO SELF-RESURRECTED descends again from heaven, and speaks again to man!

THERE, in denying not only that Joseph Smith had this experience, but generally denying that he or anyone ever could! THAT is where the truth is made bare in that “they deny the power thereof”

Furthermore, BIBLE scripture speaks of “the MOST HIGH GOD”. That comports perfectly with the Grand Council in Heaven Joseph Smith spoke of in the King Follett discourse (which also was General Conference of the Church that year), just a couple of months before Joseph Smith, with his brother Hyrum, sealed their testimonies of the doctrine they preached, and their testimonies of Christ which most ‘traditional Christians’ today STILL DENY! (i.e., will not accept).

Joseph Smith declared, “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:22 – 24)

Now, just as one would think that the sects of Judaism would have thrilled when the long awaited Messiah finally arrives (albeit in a much different manner than they anticipated), it is one of the saddest stories of mankind of how instead of welcoming the heir to the throne (as Jesus gave a parable that paralleled what would become of him), of the Great King (God) — horror of horrors, INSTEAD, they CRUCIFY the heir!!!

Now, fast forward around 18 centuries, and again, and most interestingly, under much of the same circumstances, and EVEN ON THE SAME TRUMPED UP CHARGE (“treason”), Joseph Smith TOO is killed by a mob of religionists who did all they could to stoke up heat and hate against this man whose crime was to declare that he had spoken to God, and he revealed the truths God revealed to him!!!

Interestingly enough, traditonal Christians on this forum choose not to judge Mormons on their fruits (their works), but rather on their words!!! Like the Jews at Christ’s trial, they (modern ‘traditional Christians’), much like their first century pharisaical and sadducceacal counterparts (and like Pilate & King Herod) come to agreement on one thing— Joseph Smith (like Christ) was correctly to be killed— and, furthermore, his followers (“Mormons” or “Latter-Day Saints”) are (in essence), like Joseph Smith, worthy also of DEATH for their HERESIES!!!

Today, as Mitt Romney’s run for the White House made quite clear (even I had some issues with Mitt), ANYONE can be President of the United States (even a first generation American of African descent), but NEVER, NO NEVER a MORMON!!! (Neo-Pharisees in Iowa, and neo-Sadducees in New Hampshire, crossed party lines to make sure of that — the latter state crossover vote explaining how Hillary really lost there)!

Joseph Smith, and Mormons today, teach as the Bible teaches—

God made man in his own image and likeness, and made them Male and Female.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct personages, but as Christ’s prayer (may they be one as we are one), baptism (And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased); at his resurrection (Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God); at the martyrdom of Stephen (he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God).

It is interesting, but not necessarily good, in my opinion, to see the growth and flourishing of neo-Pharisees and neo-Sadducees so much at this time. However, if one thing I take to heart, it is this. What Jesus said concerning those who find him truly—

“Broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: ….and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.”

Even 14 million Mormons in a world of 6+ billion people, a billion or two of them traditional Christian, is a FEW versus the MANY!

“Bruce D. Porter and Gerald R. McDermott’s dual analysis (“Is Mormonism Christian?” October 2008) provides us with a type of exchange that is far too infrequent. However, there is a long way to go in reaching a meeting of the minds in this endeavor. Unlike other ecumenical exchanges, a dialogue with our Mormon friends contains a peculiar communication problem.

When speaking with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, many of us find great difficulty establishing shared and consistent definitions of important words such as God, universe, salvation, and the like. (McDermott omits the Mormon doctrine of “eternal progression,” which illuminates their definitions of grace and salvation.)

This nebulosity can give the appearance of concurrence where none exists. McDermott refers to the term God in his discourse on the nature of the Trinity, which inherently contains an understanding of monotheism, omnipotence, and Christian metaphysics. This commendably goes to the heart of the matter, but it is most likely to go untouched in conversations between Christian and Mormon laity. Next time an LDS member knocks on my door, I shall ask him, “What did God worship before he became God, and why don’t we worship that?” Which brings us to the important issue of apostatizing.

When I, as a Lutheran pastor, encounter a Catholic, a Southern Baptist, or a Methodist, I happily encourage them to worship at their respective churches.

This behavior demonstrates that I regard our denominations, despite their differences, as all under the name Christian. However, when a Mormon elder visits a member of my flock, he systematically and aggressively works to divorce said member from my church. This behavior demonstrates that, however the important words are defined, Mormons regard us and our beliefs as sufficiently unchristian as to warrant the need for conversion, rebaptism, and a radical separation from the catholic Church. Through our behavior, we make our words incarnate and, in doing so, give them clarity. If Mormons are truly to regard the rest of us as Christians, they must restrict their evangelism to non-Christians.”

I know of none who have been faithful Mormon Christians who have then left over archaeological issues, just as I know of no Christians who have rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior because of disparities between accounts in the Gospels. I do know of many who have lost their faith through the normal means — sin and weakness — who have pointed to archaeological issues and interpretations in their after-the-fact justification. Just as no one gains their real faith in Christ through apologetics, no one loses it through “disapologetics.”

And I find it odd that whenever someone disputes LDS concepts of deity as being non-Biblical, they have to resort to non-Biblical formulations — e.g., “Unmoved Mover” — to define those Biblical tenets.

The King Follett Discourse is *not* “doctrinal in the LDS Church”. In fact, I’ve known plenty of Mormons who reject it openly enough and are never disciplined because of it. I would add that I find it odd that you first say that for Mormons (not Mormans) doctrine is subjective and unimportant and then you drag out an issue of doctrine. Which is it? Please actually become informed about things before you start presenting yourself as knowledgeable.

Indeed. As George Fox said c. 1652:

“The scriptures were the prophets’ words, and Christ’s and the apostles’ words, and what, as they spoke, they enjoyed and possessed, and had it from the Lord…Then what [have] any to do with the scriptures, but as they [come] to the Spirit that gave them forth? You will say, ‘Christ saith this, and the apostles say this;’ but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of the Light, and hast thou walked in the Light, and what thou speakest, is it inwardly from God?”

I think it it’s clear you’ve thought about a lot and looked into the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints.

But please consider that your conclusions are simply that. Yours. And they aren’t really descriptive of the LDS you’re trying to describe. So you might want to consider why you hold to in inaccurate description.

I don’t have a divide between faith and reason. I have very clear reasons for my faith.

I think it’s clear from your writing that that your concerned how the world generally sees faith as “unreasonable” and you feel it is not true and I agree.

But hammer on the Mormons for this isn’t really going to change anything. With or without the Mormons the world will still try to look at religion via the scientific method and look for proof.

We all have proofs. But they are personal and individual. My reason is personal. I can share them with you, and you can share yours with me, but you can’t own my faith. I can’t force you to acquire mine.

But we can clearly demonstrate that if you have 4 cookies and share one with me, now you have 3. That’s the empirical reason the world is looking for when it comes to religion, and getting bothered by the Mormons won’t change it.

I would also add that I, and my church, feels it is very important to get spiritual things right. It’s not just a “if you’re a good person everything will be ok”, because the way is indeed narrow and straight. But that does not disqualify good people from receiving blessings from our Heavenly Father simply because they are in error on doctrinal matters, or because they never even heard them.

I sometimes think other react so strongly against Mormons because of the strength of our position among beliefs. Yes, there is no silver bullet for Hebrews in the Americas. But of course there wouldn’t be. There will always be ambiguity with that, and I would expect there must be. To claim otherwise would suggest we have to do away with Faith. If God came down tomorrow and handed us the golden plates and said, “Here you go, it’s all true.” that would tend to thwart his plan. If some archeologist found a Nephite or Laminate city with unequivocal evidence for its origin, it would be similar.

Validating that there is historical evidence for a man named Jesus around 2000 years ago that caused a commotion is not the same as validating historical evidence that he was the Son of God (or God the Father Himself as I understand you believe). But finding the golden plates with Egyptian engravings buried in a hill in Mexico would validate -everything- the Book of Mormon says and what Joseph Smith Testified.

It’s a pretty simple point to understand, I wonder why some who are so committed to “exposing” LDS don’t realize the undisputed-archeological-evidence argument is not a very sophisticated one.