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	<title>Comments on: Great Books??</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Gene Callahan</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11226</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Callahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 16:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I’m too lazy to link and Patrick is free to correct.&quot;

I&#039;m sorry, but this is pretty much the Web equivalent of a print essay that begins &quot;I was too lazy to hit the shift key or type in punctuation -- fill it in for yourself.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m too lazy to link and Patrick is free to correct.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but this is pretty much the Web equivalent of a print essay that begins &#8220;I was too lazy to hit the shift key or type in punctuation &#8212; fill it in for yourself.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: The End of an Era &#171; The Daily Bayonet</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11191</link>
		<dc:creator>The End of an Era &#171; The Daily Bayonet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 May 2010 14:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] of the Great Books philosophy that clash with genuine educational goals.  See Peter Lawler&#8217;s Great Books? and the discussion thereafter.  (I wrote a lesser post in response to Lawler&#8217;s great [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the Great Books philosophy that clash with genuine educational goals.  See Peter Lawler&#8217;s Great Books? and the discussion thereafter.  (I wrote a lesser post in response to Lawler&#8217;s great [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Strepsiades</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11111</link>
		<dc:creator>Strepsiades</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 16:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Prof. Lawler,

Thank you for your comment and your wit.  

I use &quot;degenerate age&quot; as shorthand for what you call &quot;the moral impotence and confusion of our time&quot; in point #2.  I quite agree that many of the great books were written in &quot;degenerate&quot; times and perhaps speak most forcefully to those living in such times.  Whether or not any particular teaching of the great books represents a cure--or should be taken up merely as a cure--for these diseases is another question, which does not go undebated within the canon itself, as everyone here well knows.  Yet another reason perhaps to read at least some of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Lawler,</p>
<p>Thank you for your comment and your wit.  </p>
<p>I use &#8220;degenerate age&#8221; as shorthand for what you call &#8220;the moral impotence and confusion of our time&#8221; in point #2.  I quite agree that many of the great books were written in &#8220;degenerate&#8221; times and perhaps speak most forcefully to those living in such times.  Whether or not any particular teaching of the great books represents a cure&#8211;or should be taken up merely as a cure&#8211;for these diseases is another question, which does not go undebated within the canon itself, as everyone here well knows.  Yet another reason perhaps to read at least some of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11110</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 15:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The teaching one approach well approach is also pushed by Charles Murray in REAL EDUCATION.  It&#039;s hard to agree with the &quot;it doesn&#039;t matter which approach&quot; thought, though.  A Straussian, though, might say that the best introduction to philosophy is really taking one&#039;s time with a single philosopher.  And from that view, Aristotle might the way to go, simply because it&#039;s not as necessary to know his relationship to his predecessors as it, say, for even Locke.  For Catholics, it might be best to go with Aristotle and thenThomas Aquinas&#039;s corrections of Aristotle, his tempering of magnanimity with humility etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The teaching one approach well approach is also pushed by Charles Murray in REAL EDUCATION.  It&#8217;s hard to agree with the &#8220;it doesn&#8217;t matter which approach&#8221; thought, though.  A Straussian, though, might say that the best introduction to philosophy is really taking one&#8217;s time with a single philosopher.  And from that view, Aristotle might the way to go, simply because it&#8217;s not as necessary to know his relationship to his predecessors as it, say, for even Locke.  For Catholics, it might be best to go with Aristotle and thenThomas Aquinas&#8217;s corrections of Aristotle, his tempering of magnanimity with humility etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Rasmusen</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11108</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Rasmusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 14:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good discussion! 

 Keep in mind a point that Richard Posner made: one reason why people with liberal arts educations don&#039;t seem to be all that virtuous may be that they merely have gained a bigger smorgasbord of rationalizations for their vices. &quot;The example of Alexander&#039;s chastity has not made so many continent as that of his drunkenness has made intemperate.&quot;(Pascal).  So there is a case for teaching one approach---Aquinas,  Plato,  Confucius, or whatever--and teaching it well. 

      Keep in mind, too, that students need to learn orderly thinking, which may require courses with problem sets of some kind, whether in logic, geometry, economics, or chemistry.  Or even law--- law schools do a great job of  introducing mushminds to verbal logical thinking in a single year.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good discussion! </p>
<p> Keep in mind a point that Richard Posner made: one reason why people with liberal arts educations don&#8217;t seem to be all that virtuous may be that they merely have gained a bigger smorgasbord of rationalizations for their vices. &#8220;The example of Alexander&#8217;s chastity has not made so many continent as that of his drunkenness has made intemperate.&#8221;(Pascal).  So there is a case for teaching one approach&#8212;Aquinas,  Plato,  Confucius, or whatever&#8211;and teaching it well. </p>
<p>      Keep in mind, too, that students need to learn orderly thinking, which may require courses with problem sets of some kind, whether in logic, geometry, economics, or chemistry.  Or even law&#8212; law schools do a great job of  introducing mushminds to verbal logical thinking in a single year.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11106</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 14:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, Strepsiades, you&#039;re as eloquent as your namesake is inarticulate.  And I agree with you that the Locke, Tocqueville reninforcing the current regime strategy is lamer than its adherents think.  But I can&#039;t quite trust anyone who is so proudly contemptuous of his degenerate times.  For one thing, &quot;Great Books&quot; education may find its most natural home in degenerate times, for much the same reason that the open-minded discussion of THE REPUBLIC takes place in a decadent democracy. And, as Nietzsche says, one dimension of the problem of Socrates is that he had no solution to the problem of Athens.  That&#039;s one reason that your namesake finally had no use use for him and he became a &quot;born again Zeus believer.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Strepsiades, you&#8217;re as eloquent as your namesake is inarticulate.  And I agree with you that the Locke, Tocqueville reninforcing the current regime strategy is lamer than its adherents think.  But I can&#8217;t quite trust anyone who is so proudly contemptuous of his degenerate times.  For one thing, &#8220;Great Books&#8221; education may find its most natural home in degenerate times, for much the same reason that the open-minded discussion of THE REPUBLIC takes place in a decadent democracy. And, as Nietzsche says, one dimension of the problem of Socrates is that he had no solution to the problem of Athens.  That&#8217;s one reason that your namesake finally had no use use for him and he became a &#8220;born again Zeus believer.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Strepsiades</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11102</link>
		<dc:creator>Strepsiades</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 05:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This Deneen fellow, if he has read the great books, has surely not understood them.  Anyone who has read the great authors cannot but see the continuity between them--the canon is certainly not one large mishmash from which a reader may choose whatever they like.  Nietzsche comments on Hegel who comments on Kant who comments on Rousseau and all to some extent contemplate the entire tradition.  Moreover, any serious student would not simply agree with any particular author and throw out all the rest.  The great books are great because they each command a lifetime of appreciation and study.  One does not reach a particular author, declare the end of philosophy, and stop thinking (one might declare the end of philosophy and start thinking, but I digress). 

And this approach is not equivalent with relativism in the sense that everyone agrees that Plato and Nietzsche and the like are far superior to mediocrities like Deneen.  This sort of &#039;promiscuous&#039; respect for greatness is precisely all that one needs, and if we had it, this conversation would not be taking place.  The &quot;problem&quot; with our postmodern society is not the epic battles between devoted Lockeans and dedicated Rousseauians or Hobbesians or Nietzscheans or whatever.  The &quot;problem&quot; is not even nihilism properly speaking but the prevalence of degenerate social theory, barren Enlightenment economics and natural science, and hypocritical Sunday school cant (or Kant).  

Of course, there will inevitably be some students who will not approach the great books with the seriousness or intelligence required.  Very well--at least they were exposed to great thinkers and still better that they run off misquoting Locke or Nietzsche than having been intoduced only to the nonsensical musings of some tenured moron.

I would entertain the possibility of choosing to teach only great books that reinforce a current regime.  Thus Locke and Toqueville, etc. in America.  The curious students will see clearly that they need to look further.  Those who do not do so can carry on with an admirable if slightly complacent civic spirit.  But in our degenerate age, I&#039;m not sure such precautions would amount to much anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Deneen fellow, if he has read the great books, has surely not understood them.  Anyone who has read the great authors cannot but see the continuity between them&#8211;the canon is certainly not one large mishmash from which a reader may choose whatever they like.  Nietzsche comments on Hegel who comments on Kant who comments on Rousseau and all to some extent contemplate the entire tradition.  Moreover, any serious student would not simply agree with any particular author and throw out all the rest.  The great books are great because they each command a lifetime of appreciation and study.  One does not reach a particular author, declare the end of philosophy, and stop thinking (one might declare the end of philosophy and start thinking, but I digress). </p>
<p>And this approach is not equivalent with relativism in the sense that everyone agrees that Plato and Nietzsche and the like are far superior to mediocrities like Deneen.  This sort of &#8216;promiscuous&#8217; respect for greatness is precisely all that one needs, and if we had it, this conversation would not be taking place.  The &#8220;problem&#8221; with our postmodern society is not the epic battles between devoted Lockeans and dedicated Rousseauians or Hobbesians or Nietzscheans or whatever.  The &#8220;problem&#8221; is not even nihilism properly speaking but the prevalence of degenerate social theory, barren Enlightenment economics and natural science, and hypocritical Sunday school cant (or Kant).  </p>
<p>Of course, there will inevitably be some students who will not approach the great books with the seriousness or intelligence required.  Very well&#8211;at least they were exposed to great thinkers and still better that they run off misquoting Locke or Nietzsche than having been intoduced only to the nonsensical musings of some tenured moron.</p>
<p>I would entertain the possibility of choosing to teach only great books that reinforce a current regime.  Thus Locke and Toqueville, etc. in America.  The curious students will see clearly that they need to look further.  Those who do not do so can carry on with an admirable if slightly complacent civic spirit.  But in our degenerate age, I&#8217;m not sure such precautions would amount to much anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Great Books? Great Scott! &#171;</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11087</link>
		<dc:creator>Great Books? Great Scott! &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 May 2010 17:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] book, and of chronological progess, with the last books seeming to be the most advanced arguments. Dr. Peter Lawler adds a further dimension to this problem: “But said student also learns that he or she is much dumber [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] book, and of chronological progess, with the last books seeming to be the most advanced arguments. Dr. Peter Lawler adds a further dimension to this problem: “But said student also learns that he or she is much dumber [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11086</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 May 2010 06:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Patrick Deneen... One more thing.  If you cared to read Nietzsche instead of relying on poor sources which attempt to guide his thought in a certain direction -- you would realize that bloom with in fact a nietzschian.  His lectures on Nietzsche show a real depth and care that reflects real rumination.  A fact that is sorely lost by your extreme position you take on Nietzsche.  In fact in On Truth and Lies, followed up by The Gay Science he expounds upon the morality of greatness of which transcends explaination or as Wittgenstein said cannot be told only shown.  With the logical conclusion that it manifests itself in us our greatness manifested in eternal becoming.  His critique of the bible or &quot;great books&quot; is similar to yours in that interpretation does not adequitely shine forth in a slave morality of being which posits equality of self.  Of course under good... The goodness as Ralph says is really boring hell as lawler puts it.  Becoming or a state of self conscious skeptism is truly enriched and powerful in it&#039;s overcoming of being and all it&#039;s putrid vestiages thAt have dragged us down such as relativism which was fought and hated by bloom.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick Deneen&#8230; One more thing.  If you cared to read Nietzsche instead of relying on poor sources which attempt to guide his thought in a certain direction &#8212; you would realize that bloom with in fact a nietzschian.  His lectures on Nietzsche show a real depth and care that reflects real rumination.  A fact that is sorely lost by your extreme position you take on Nietzsche.  In fact in On Truth and Lies, followed up by The Gay Science he expounds upon the morality of greatness of which transcends explaination or as Wittgenstein said cannot be told only shown.  With the logical conclusion that it manifests itself in us our greatness manifested in eternal becoming.  His critique of the bible or &#8220;great books&#8221; is similar to yours in that interpretation does not adequitely shine forth in a slave morality of being which posits equality of self.  Of course under good&#8230; The goodness as Ralph says is really boring hell as lawler puts it.  Becoming or a state of self conscious skeptism is truly enriched and powerful in it&#8217;s overcoming of being and all it&#8217;s putrid vestiages thAt have dragged us down such as relativism which was fought and hated by bloom.</p>
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		<title>By: Irish Cicero</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2010/05/05/great-books/comment-page-1/#comment-11056</link>
		<dc:creator>Irish Cicero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 03:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=2155#comment-11056</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent!

I posted my own commentary on the same, though my remarks were not so learned as the ones left above.  I thank you all.

http://washingtonrebel.typepad.com/washington_rebel/2010/05/no-book-on-the-great-books.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent!</p>
<p>I posted my own commentary on the same, though my remarks were not so learned as the ones left above.  I thank you all.</p>
<p><a href="http://washingtonrebel.typepad.com/washington_rebel/2010/05/no-book-on-the-great-books.html" rel="nofollow">http://washingtonrebel.typepad.com/washington_rebel/2010/05/no-book-on-the-great-books.html</a></p>
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