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	<title>Comments on: Marilynne Robinson vs. Alasdair MacIntyre</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Peter Wicks</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-19662</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Wicks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 01:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-19662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HT,

MacIntyre is extremely interested in Wittgenstein, but much of Wittgenstein&#039;s influence is somewhat below the surface in his best known writings. To see an explicit discussion of the relationship between Wittgenstein&#039;s thought and MacIntyre&#039;s project, I&#039;d recommend MacIntyre&#039;s essay &quot;Colors, Cultures, and Practices,&quot; in Midwest Studies in Philosophy, Volume 17 (1992), 1-23.

As for MacIntyre&#039;s estimation of Wittgenstein&#039;s importance, here&#039;s a clear statement from an interview that he did for Kinesis in the 90s: 

&quot;It seems to me that Wittgenstein is unquestionably the great philosopher of the twentieth century. I do not of course mean by this that everything that the later Wittgenstein asserts is true. Far from it. What I mean when I speak of Wittgenstein as a great philosopher is that there is no way to do good philosophy any more which does not involve coming to terms, insofar as one can, with what he said.&quot;

I&#039;d be inclined to defend MacIntyre against Robinson&#039;s charges - at least in the form in which they&#039;ve been reported - but since I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any way to do so briefly I won&#039;t even attempt to here. I&#039;ll just say that whatever shortcomings his work may have, I don&#039;t think they can plausibly be attributed to a lack of interest in Wittgenstein.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HT,</p>
<p>MacIntyre is extremely interested in Wittgenstein, but much of Wittgenstein&#8217;s influence is somewhat below the surface in his best known writings. To see an explicit discussion of the relationship between Wittgenstein&#8217;s thought and MacIntyre&#8217;s project, I&#8217;d recommend MacIntyre&#8217;s essay &#8220;Colors, Cultures, and Practices,&#8221; in Midwest Studies in Philosophy, Volume 17 (1992), 1-23.</p>
<p>As for MacIntyre&#8217;s estimation of Wittgenstein&#8217;s importance, here&#8217;s a clear statement from an interview that he did for Kinesis in the 90s: </p>
<p>&#8220;It seems to me that Wittgenstein is unquestionably the great philosopher of the twentieth century. I do not of course mean by this that everything that the later Wittgenstein asserts is true. Far from it. What I mean when I speak of Wittgenstein as a great philosopher is that there is no way to do good philosophy any more which does not involve coming to terms, insofar as one can, with what he said.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be inclined to defend MacIntyre against Robinson&#8217;s charges &#8211; at least in the form in which they&#8217;ve been reported &#8211; but since I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any way to do so briefly I won&#8217;t even attempt to here. I&#8217;ll just say that whatever shortcomings his work may have, I don&#8217;t think they can plausibly be attributed to a lack of interest in Wittgenstein.</p>
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		<title>By: CJ Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17237</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ Wolfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 00:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17237</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with everything you say, HT. In addition, Anscombe&#039;s 1958 &quot;Modern Moral Philosophy&quot; article really crushed emotivism, and is a major basis of MacIntyre&#039;s chapter on &quot;Aristotle or Nietzsche.&quot; 

There needs to be an article written distinguishing New Natural Law from Virtue Ethics, because my colleagues at the politics dpt. continually talk about them as if they&#039;re the same, but they&#039;re not. 

As far as I&#039;m concerned, John Finnis and Germain Grisez were writing in response to Rawls but retain many of his neo-Kantian presuppositions. Virtue ethics is focused on the agent, it is not deontological. There&#039;s also no teleology in New Natural Law.The style of Rawls, Finnis, and Anscombe is all logically rigorous, so people conflate them by calling them &quot;analytic.&quot; But &quot;analytic&quot; is just a style, not a set of presuppositions. I&#039;ve seen articles where Finnis will write directly against Anscombe, such as on the Thomistic topic of &quot;double effect.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with everything you say, HT. In addition, Anscombe&#8217;s 1958 &#8220;Modern Moral Philosophy&#8221; article really crushed emotivism, and is a major basis of MacIntyre&#8217;s chapter on &#8220;Aristotle or Nietzsche.&#8221; </p>
<p>There needs to be an article written distinguishing New Natural Law from Virtue Ethics, because my colleagues at the politics dpt. continually talk about them as if they&#8217;re the same, but they&#8217;re not. </p>
<p>As far as I&#8217;m concerned, John Finnis and Germain Grisez were writing in response to Rawls but retain many of his neo-Kantian presuppositions. Virtue ethics is focused on the agent, it is not deontological. There&#8217;s also no teleology in New Natural Law.The style of Rawls, Finnis, and Anscombe is all logically rigorous, so people conflate them by calling them &#8220;analytic.&#8221; But &#8220;analytic&#8221; is just a style, not a set of presuppositions. I&#8217;ve seen articles where Finnis will write directly against Anscombe, such as on the Thomistic topic of &#8220;double effect.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Eric Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17235</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Eric Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, that Schulman piece is cool--brilliant quotes from Marilynne Robinson!  

BTW, his piece is careful about delineating what Robinson gets wrong about MacIntyre.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, that Schulman piece is cool&#8211;brilliant quotes from Marilynne Robinson!  </p>
<p>BTW, his piece is careful about delineating what Robinson gets wrong about MacIntyre.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17232</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HT, lots of great points.  More soon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HT, lots of great points.  More soon.</p>
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		<title>By: HT</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17231</link>
		<dc:creator>HT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:14:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not sure what you mean by &quot;rising out&quot; of the analytic world, Peter.  Absorbing some of its typical virtues/vices, or putatively transcending them?  Everyone I mentioned above is generally considered part of the analytic world (moreso than MacIntyre is), and they&#039;ve all moved forward our understanding of virtue ethics.  None of them subscribes to the sort of views that CJ Wolfe mentions above; Anscombe indeed has produced the only rigorous refutation of the is/ought separation that I&#039;ve seen, in her delightfully brief paper On Brute Facts, and Geach undermined any variety of emotivism by pointing out the &quot;Frege/Geach problem&quot;.  I don&#039;t know of anyone in any other philosophical &quot;school&quot; (e.g. neo-Thomist, phenomenological) who&#039;s done anything remotely as good (traditional neo-Thomism is basically hermetic babble anyway).  The New Natural Law guys seem to ignore the New Analytic Aristotelianism; don&#039;t know why.  Finnis seems to possess some originality; George doesn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure what you mean by &#8220;rising out&#8221; of the analytic world, Peter.  Absorbing some of its typical virtues/vices, or putatively transcending them?  Everyone I mentioned above is generally considered part of the analytic world (moreso than MacIntyre is), and they&#8217;ve all moved forward our understanding of virtue ethics.  None of them subscribes to the sort of views that CJ Wolfe mentions above; Anscombe indeed has produced the only rigorous refutation of the is/ought separation that I&#8217;ve seen, in her delightfully brief paper On Brute Facts, and Geach undermined any variety of emotivism by pointing out the &#8220;Frege/Geach problem&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t know of anyone in any other philosophical &#8220;school&#8221; (e.g. neo-Thomist, phenomenological) who&#8217;s done anything remotely as good (traditional neo-Thomism is basically hermetic babble anyway).  The New Natural Law guys seem to ignore the New Analytic Aristotelianism; don&#8217;t know why.  Finnis seems to possess some originality; George doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Anymouse</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17230</link>
		<dc:creator>Anymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do think that many of us are losing sight of reality here.

We know that Japan had no legal abortion before 1900, and does have legal abortion today. We know that the Faroe Islands has large healthy families and a high right of adoption, while Denmark and many parts of the U.S. have neither.

That should suggest that a lifestyle that resembles that of the Faroe Islands or Imperial Japan is more likely to lead to virtue than the Hyper Modern societies we see today. That leads me to embrace traditional societies and reject modernity.

Any serious conservatism needs to grapple with these facts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do think that many of us are losing sight of reality here.</p>
<p>We know that Japan had no legal abortion before 1900, and does have legal abortion today. We know that the Faroe Islands has large healthy families and a high right of adoption, while Denmark and many parts of the U.S. have neither.</p>
<p>That should suggest that a lifestyle that resembles that of the Faroe Islands or Imperial Japan is more likely to lead to virtue than the Hyper Modern societies we see today. That leads me to embrace traditional societies and reject modernity.</p>
<p>Any serious conservatism needs to grapple with these facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17228</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting issues:

1. MacIntyre&#039;s virtues and vices are connected to his rising out of the analytic world.  
2. The same with Finnis/Robby George.
3. Yet Robby and his people seem distant from MacIntyre and his medieval village people.
4. The virtue of the neo-Puritanical tradition--which is basically Marilynne Robinson--is that it, with Tocqueville, sees the modern idea of equality as largely Christian. And so there&#039;s a lot of liberal American progress that Christians, in justice, should affirm.  Not of course everything, as our president insists on reminding us right now.
5. I&#039;m inclined to give Locke about 1.5 cheers, because modern liberty in a distorted, abstractly unrelational sense remains personal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting issues:</p>
<p>1. MacIntyre&#8217;s virtues and vices are connected to his rising out of the analytic world.<br />
2. The same with Finnis/Robby George.<br />
3. Yet Robby and his people seem distant from MacIntyre and his medieval village people.<br />
4. The virtue of the neo-Puritanical tradition&#8211;which is basically Marilynne Robinson&#8211;is that it, with Tocqueville, sees the modern idea of equality as largely Christian. And so there&#8217;s a lot of liberal American progress that Christians, in justice, should affirm.  Not of course everything, as our president insists on reminding us right now.<br />
5. I&#8217;m inclined to give Locke about 1.5 cheers, because modern liberty in a distorted, abstractly unrelational sense remains personal.</p>
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		<title>By: Anymouse</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17226</link>
		<dc:creator>Anymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Her criticism comes from a distinctly liberal point of view. Given that we see liberal society in a period of extensive degeneracy, why should we listen to what she has to say? As an example look at the following statement:
&quot;there are countless examples of people acting in a way that would so qualify as “virtuous” but that are obviously morally wrong — particularly since so many social roles have been defined by their subjugation of less privileged people&quot;
She simply presupposes that it is morally wrong to rule over someone who is defined as inferior. I do not see that to always be the case. Parents rule over children, and teachers over students, so if we are going to argue that social roles defined by subjugation to be inherently evil we will have to reject the traditional family and traditional education. And that does not help us conserve our society in the slightest.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Her criticism comes from a distinctly liberal point of view. Given that we see liberal society in a period of extensive degeneracy, why should we listen to what she has to say? As an example look at the following statement:<br />
&#8220;there are countless examples of people acting in a way that would so qualify as “virtuous” but that are obviously morally wrong — particularly since so many social roles have been defined by their subjugation of less privileged people&#8221;<br />
She simply presupposes that it is morally wrong to rule over someone who is defined as inferior. I do not see that to always be the case. Parents rule over children, and teachers over students, so if we are going to argue that social roles defined by subjugation to be inherently evil we will have to reject the traditional family and traditional education. And that does not help us conserve our society in the slightest.</p>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17224</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Given its contribution to political liberalism, I don&#039;t know why MacIntyre shouldn&#039;t be grateful for the Reformation, which helped make such biographies as his possible. 

Seriously, it&#039;s just too much illiberalism and anti-modernism (see the Schulman analysis). Modernity deserves at least two cheers--though some of us might be inclined to give it more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given its contribution to political liberalism, I don&#8217;t know why MacIntyre shouldn&#8217;t be grateful for the Reformation, which helped make such biographies as his possible. </p>
<p>Seriously, it&#8217;s just too much illiberalism and anti-modernism (see the Schulman analysis). Modernity deserves at least two cheers&#8211;though some of us might be inclined to give it more.</p>
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		<title>By: HT</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/02/14/marilynne-robinson-vs-alasdair-macintyre/comment-page-1/#comment-17218</link>
		<dc:creator>HT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6034#comment-17218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A lot of important recent work has been done in virtue ethics (and relatedly, human intentional action, i.e. the will) both before and after &quot;After Virtue&quot;, mostly by people influenced both by Aristotle and Wittgenstein: Anscombe, Geach, Kenny, Foot, Hursthouse, Thompson, Teichmann.  I&#039;m not widely read in MacIntyre, but maybe his lack of interest in Wittgenstein has something to do with some of his shortcomings, and maybe Robinson&#039;s lack of familiarity with this work has something to do with her misunderstanding of what a virtue could be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of important recent work has been done in virtue ethics (and relatedly, human intentional action, i.e. the will) both before and after &#8220;After Virtue&#8221;, mostly by people influenced both by Aristotle and Wittgenstein: Anscombe, Geach, Kenny, Foot, Hursthouse, Thompson, Teichmann.  I&#8217;m not widely read in MacIntyre, but maybe his lack of interest in Wittgenstein has something to do with some of his shortcomings, and maybe Robinson&#8217;s lack of familiarity with this work has something to do with her misunderstanding of what a virtue could be.</p>
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