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	<title>Comments on: What we have in common</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/</link>
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		<title>By: Dwight Lindley</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17840</link>
		<dc:creator>Dwight Lindley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t it a little too easy to throw medieval Catholic political philosophy in with the Ancients? This does make it simpler to respond to Deneen, but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s what he was asserting. Deneen did seem to be connecting Catholicism with a holistic approach, but the medievals are just too different from the ancients to accept the paint-by-numbers Straussian claim that it&#039;s all as simple as A or B, whole or parts, Ancients or Moderns. 

Remi Brague shows why in all his books about the medieval synthesis, as it developed out of the ancients and made way for the moderns. I think Brague would be somewhere between Deneen&#039;s hard anti-liberalism and the rapprochement position you are trying to work out, Jason: his thesis is that modernity&#039;s great contributions (the individual, natural rights, etc., etc.) do come out of the Catholic middle ages, but that modernity has appropriated them by means that are more Muslim than Christian. Modernity has done to late medieval Catholic political philosophy what the Muslims did to the ancient world: it has assimilated key Catholic insights, even as it has made a show of total repudiation, leaving no traces behind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it a little too easy to throw medieval Catholic political philosophy in with the Ancients? This does make it simpler to respond to Deneen, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s what he was asserting. Deneen did seem to be connecting Catholicism with a holistic approach, but the medievals are just too different from the ancients to accept the paint-by-numbers Straussian claim that it&#8217;s all as simple as A or B, whole or parts, Ancients or Moderns. </p>
<p>Remi Brague shows why in all his books about the medieval synthesis, as it developed out of the ancients and made way for the moderns. I think Brague would be somewhere between Deneen&#8217;s hard anti-liberalism and the rapprochement position you are trying to work out, Jason: his thesis is that modernity&#8217;s great contributions (the individual, natural rights, etc., etc.) do come out of the Catholic middle ages, but that modernity has appropriated them by means that are more Muslim than Christian. Modernity has done to late medieval Catholic political philosophy what the Muslims did to the ancient world: it has assimilated key Catholic insights, even as it has made a show of total repudiation, leaving no traces behind.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Cain</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17837</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Cain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the way, I had not yet read your revisiting of this question, when I posted this, Peter.

I see you hedge on what Zuckert means too - interesting.  You should say more some day (or have you elsewhere?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I had not yet read your revisiting of this question, when I posted this, Peter.</p>
<p>I see you hedge on what Zuckert means too &#8211; interesting.  You should say more some day (or have you elsewhere?)</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Cain</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17834</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Cain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I could say a lot more, but doing so would greatly increase risk not being right. . . .

 But I am tempted enough to point out that Socrates  did not consider himself simply a part of the regime.  We might even be hard pressed to find a better example of an &quot;individual&quot;.  Insofar as we mean his example as ancient political thought, it is hard for to see how that thought emphasizes the common good over and against the individual.  Athens certainly didn&#039;t think so anyway.

I also do not think there is much in common between Modern individual autonomy and Catholic individual dignity.  As Hobbes shows, the claim of the former entails no duty to respect the latter.  I know that Zuckert appears to claim to overcome this problem in his reading of Locke, but I think his argument does not quite do what he seems to claim it does (as I think he well knows).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could say a lot more, but doing so would greatly increase risk not being right. . . .</p>
<p> But I am tempted enough to point out that Socrates  did not consider himself simply a part of the regime.  We might even be hard pressed to find a better example of an &#8220;individual&#8221;.  Insofar as we mean his example as ancient political thought, it is hard for to see how that thought emphasizes the common good over and against the individual.  Athens certainly didn&#8217;t think so anyway.</p>
<p>I also do not think there is much in common between Modern individual autonomy and Catholic individual dignity.  As Hobbes shows, the claim of the former entails no duty to respect the latter.  I know that Zuckert appears to claim to overcome this problem in his reading of Locke, but I think his argument does not quite do what he seems to claim it does (as I think he well knows).</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Eric Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17833</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Eric Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And Patrick Cain, a lot will depend on which &quot;ancients&quot; we mean.  I.e., the statesmen from Livy or Plutarch generally will exhort you to be city fodder, albeit at the highest level--nor does it seem that Livy or Plutarch disagree with such exhortation.  Plato and Xenophon teach something else, most quickly represented by the fate of the patriotic man displayed in the Republic at 553b, and by the strategy the philosophic man adopts at 496d of &quot;standing aside under a little wall.&quot;  And the trick is to see that whatever Aristotle elaborates about what is the best and most just that can be done with a  polis, on the core issue he ultimately joins Plato and Xenophon.  

I.e. the &quot;one&#039;s life ought not be city fodder&quot; of ancient natural right really means:

 &quot;as only the truly philosophic can know, one&#039;s life ought not be city fodder.&quot;   

P.S. Great post, Jason.  The other Patrick should respond; perhaps Matt will prod him to.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Patrick Cain, a lot will depend on which &#8220;ancients&#8221; we mean.  I.e., the statesmen from Livy or Plutarch generally will exhort you to be city fodder, albeit at the highest level&#8211;nor does it seem that Livy or Plutarch disagree with such exhortation.  Plato and Xenophon teach something else, most quickly represented by the fate of the patriotic man displayed in the Republic at 553b, and by the strategy the philosophic man adopts at 496d of &#8220;standing aside under a little wall.&#8221;  And the trick is to see that whatever Aristotle elaborates about what is the best and most just that can be done with a  polis, on the core issue he ultimately joins Plato and Xenophon.  </p>
<p>I.e. the &#8220;one&#8217;s life ought not be city fodder&#8221; of ancient natural right really means:</p>
<p> &#8220;as only the truly philosophic can know, one&#8217;s life ought not be city fodder.&#8221;   </p>
<p>P.S. Great post, Jason.  The other Patrick should respond; perhaps Matt will prod him to.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17830</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17830</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Patrick,
You gotta say more, because you might be right.
Peter]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick,<br />
You gotta say more, because you might be right.<br />
Peter</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Cain</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17826</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Cain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your last paragraph does not seem to recognize the importance of ancient natural right : it seems to me that the ancients emphasized the idea that one&#039;s life ought not to be be city fodder (even if some people&#039;s lives are such fodder).

On the other side, Hobbes account of our right to everything, is hard to call even a thin endorsement of human dignity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your last paragraph does not seem to recognize the importance of ancient natural right : it seems to me that the ancients emphasized the idea that one&#8217;s life ought not to be be city fodder (even if some people&#8217;s lives are such fodder).</p>
<p>On the other side, Hobbes account of our right to everything, is hard to call even a thin endorsement of human dignity.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Shadle</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17811</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Shadle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 05:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a similar point to what I was trying to say about Aquinas and conscience in the comments to Deneen&#039;s post. I believe that Deneen&#039;s focus on the common good was too one-sided an interpretation of the Christian tradition, that needs to be balanced by the person, as you suggest.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a similar point to what I was trying to say about Aquinas and conscience in the comments to Deneen&#8217;s post. I believe that Deneen&#8217;s focus on the common good was too one-sided an interpretation of the Christian tradition, that needs to be balanced by the person, as you suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Cheeks</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/03/05/what-we-have-in-common/comment-page-1/#comment-17805</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Cheeks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=6277#comment-17805</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The eschaton has long been immanentized, thus the tension of human existence, in modernity, has been corrupted. As an example, the Democrat is a citizen who is a member of a political party that supports/condones the systematic slaughter of human infants. Both logically and morally there can be no relationship between the Christian (Catholic) and the registered Democrat. A Christian Democrat is oxymoronic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The eschaton has long been immanentized, thus the tension of human existence, in modernity, has been corrupted. As an example, the Democrat is a citizen who is a member of a political party that supports/condones the systematic slaughter of human infants. Both logically and morally there can be no relationship between the Christian (Catholic) and the registered Democrat. A Christian Democrat is oxymoronic.</p>
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