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	<title>Comments on: Back to a Tie</title>
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		<title>By: Diogeron</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29406</link>
		<dc:creator>Diogeron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2012 16:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[People, reality check. First, if Obama is up 3 in Oh and the margin of error is 3, that does NOT mean it a &quot;statistical tie&quot; as I heard CNN report. It COULD be a tie OR Obama could be up 6. That&#039;s why they say, &quot;plus or minus 3&quot; and not just &quot;minus 3.&quot; Journalists &amp; pundits should take at least one stat course if they are going to opine on it.

Finally, the trend is clear and Obama ie either ahead or within the MOE in almost all swing states. Unless ALL the polls are systematically biased (they&#039;re not), Obama will likely win. Anyone who denies that probability is simply deluding themselves. Could Mitt win. Sure, but it is far less likely than an Obama win.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People, reality check. First, if Obama is up 3 in Oh and the margin of error is 3, that does NOT mean it a &#8220;statistical tie&#8221; as I heard CNN report. It COULD be a tie OR Obama could be up 6. That&#8217;s why they say, &#8220;plus or minus 3&#8243; and not just &#8220;minus 3.&#8221; Journalists &amp; pundits should take at least one stat course if they are going to opine on it.</p>
<p>Finally, the trend is clear and Obama ie either ahead or within the MOE in almost all swing states. Unless ALL the polls are systematically biased (they&#8217;re not), Obama will likely win. Anyone who denies that probability is simply deluding themselves. Could Mitt win. Sure, but it is far less likely than an Obama win.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Eason</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29336</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Eason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2012 03:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29336</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[others will be clearly wrong. But it&#039;s very unlikely anyone will ever prove the others wrong on the meaning of our existence or on string theory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>others will be clearly wrong. But it&#8217;s very unlikely anyone will ever prove the others wrong on the meaning of our existence or on string theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Eason</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29335</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Eason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2012 03:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With a doctor of philosophy in physics and a pseudo-philosopher of metaphysics among us, presidential race polling seems so unworthy a discussion.

We should rather be exploring the cosmos, relativity of time, being, countin&#039; strings. 
The heck with polls. Six days from now someone will be clearly right and]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With a doctor of philosophy in physics and a pseudo-philosopher of metaphysics among us, presidential race polling seems so unworthy a discussion.</p>
<p>We should rather be exploring the cosmos, relativity of time, being, countin&#8217; strings.<br />
The heck with polls. Six days from now someone will be clearly right and</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Marshall</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29309</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nothing has changed.  I still enjoy reading the views of people here, even Brian&#039;s.  I prefer my prejudices sandpapered rather than curry combed.  But that doesn&#039;t mean that I&#039;ve ceased to be partisan or that I&#039;m no longer forthright about what I think to be nonsense.

I have not spoken my full mind about Mitt Romney because, even if he is elected President, he is a mere man and will pass from the scene in his own time and his own way.  As will you, as will I, and as will even Brian.

But ideas and collective habits of mind endure, and I have no hesitation about rebutting those I think are bad ideas and bad habits.  And I presume, since these comments are monitored, I have done so without excessive personal rancor to anyone.  If this is not the case, then I apologize to any who feel personally wounded or offended by any of my comments.

Beyond that, I try to think as clearly and write as well as I can, without making a parade of my credentials, since I think none are relevant except that of being a citizen of a free and open society.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing has changed.  I still enjoy reading the views of people here, even Brian&#8217;s.  I prefer my prejudices sandpapered rather than curry combed.  But that doesn&#8217;t mean that I&#8217;ve ceased to be partisan or that I&#8217;m no longer forthright about what I think to be nonsense.</p>
<p>I have not spoken my full mind about Mitt Romney because, even if he is elected President, he is a mere man and will pass from the scene in his own time and his own way.  As will you, as will I, and as will even Brian.</p>
<p>But ideas and collective habits of mind endure, and I have no hesitation about rebutting those I think are bad ideas and bad habits.  And I presume, since these comments are monitored, I have done so without excessive personal rancor to anyone.  If this is not the case, then I apologize to any who feel personally wounded or offended by any of my comments.</p>
<p>Beyond that, I try to think as clearly and write as well as I can, without making a parade of my credentials, since I think none are relevant except that of being a citizen of a free and open society.</p>
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		<title>By: Pseudoplotinus</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29288</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudoplotinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 21:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian, whenever I read those sorts of comments from Joseph&#039;s posts I always like to go back to his contibution on this thread:

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/09/27/my-take-on-the-polls/#comments

when he said that following:

&quot;I’m sure by now you’ve asked yourself, “Why is this Marshall character over here? He’s obviously a committed Liberal.” I’m here because most of you are intelligent Conservatives of the non-mouth frothing sort, who really ought to have an alternative to both what is in the Republican platform and the Democratic Party that they actually believe in. Probably you already do.

But I can tell you that it is so heavily encoded, self-referential, tied to an arcane set of books that no ordinary voter has read, and articulated in such vague and general terms that it is largely unintelligible outside of your closed circle.

Abstractly, and beyond my own partisanship, I think this is a shame. By definition, a democratic society needs a clear articulation of every point of view in order for the People to make an intelligent choice. The lack of one erodes the intelligence of even your opponents and is objectively bad for everybody.

And encourage you, even for my sake, to start doing the thinking you need to do to talk about the alternative you believe in clearly to everybody else.&quot;


I do wonder what&#039;s changed since that post. Perhaps Romney&#039;s prospects? Perhaps, Mr. Marshall? Regardless, I&#039;m sure he&#039;ll be back to his good graces post Nov 6.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, whenever I read those sorts of comments from Joseph&#8217;s posts I always like to go back to his contibution on this thread:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/09/27/my-take-on-the-polls/#comments" rel="nofollow">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/09/27/my-take-on-the-polls/#comments</a></p>
<p>when he said that following:</p>
<p>&#8220;I’m sure by now you’ve asked yourself, “Why is this Marshall character over here? He’s obviously a committed Liberal.” I’m here because most of you are intelligent Conservatives of the non-mouth frothing sort, who really ought to have an alternative to both what is in the Republican platform and the Democratic Party that they actually believe in. Probably you already do.</p>
<p>But I can tell you that it is so heavily encoded, self-referential, tied to an arcane set of books that no ordinary voter has read, and articulated in such vague and general terms that it is largely unintelligible outside of your closed circle.</p>
<p>Abstractly, and beyond my own partisanship, I think this is a shame. By definition, a democratic society needs a clear articulation of every point of view in order for the People to make an intelligent choice. The lack of one erodes the intelligence of even your opponents and is objectively bad for everybody.</p>
<p>And encourage you, even for my sake, to start doing the thinking you need to do to talk about the alternative you believe in clearly to everybody else.&#8221;</p>
<p>I do wonder what&#8217;s changed since that post. Perhaps Romney&#8217;s prospects? Perhaps, Mr. Marshall? Regardless, I&#8217;m sure he&#8217;ll be back to his good graces post Nov 6.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29284</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joseph Marshall in the last few days has written stuff like this:  &quot;Conservatives can draw such grand and final conclusions from admitting that they know nothing whatever about the subject being discussed...Of all the things most annoying about the Conservative mindset, one of the worst is this rhetorical habit of raising questions that could be easily answered by a little reading on the part of the questioner...The amount of sheer willful ignorance in venues like this of what happens when people are polled is both overwhelming and appalling...It is also one of the reasons that I call most Conservatives “fact challenged”&quot;

Anyone who comes to a conservative site and writes this sort of nonsense first better bother get his own stuff straight, which apparently was beyond you, and second certainly can&#039;t whine about someone &quot;calling me names.&quot;  Your sudden sensitivity is just too precious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph Marshall in the last few days has written stuff like this:  &#8220;Conservatives can draw such grand and final conclusions from admitting that they know nothing whatever about the subject being discussed&#8230;Of all the things most annoying about the Conservative mindset, one of the worst is this rhetorical habit of raising questions that could be easily answered by a little reading on the part of the questioner&#8230;The amount of sheer willful ignorance in venues like this of what happens when people are polled is both overwhelming and appalling&#8230;It is also one of the reasons that I call most Conservatives “fact challenged”&#8221;</p>
<p>Anyone who comes to a conservative site and writes this sort of nonsense first better bother get his own stuff straight, which apparently was beyond you, and second certainly can&#8217;t whine about someone &#8220;calling me names.&#8221;  Your sudden sensitivity is just too precious.</p>
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		<title>By: Vijay</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29259</link>
		<dc:creator>Vijay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 22:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry for the stat-nerdy post to follow, but I feel as though there are wide-spread misunderstandings of polling results. Let&#039;s take an example - suppose a particular poll of likely voters in OH has a margin of error (MOE) of +/- 2 pts and shows Obama 50, Romney 46. This does not mean that the race is a statistical tie because Obama&#039;s lead is within the MOE. The 50/46 result is the mean (or the top tip) of a normally distributed bell-curve of probabilities.  The MOE simply puts bounds around the confidence interval (CI) of the poll - most polls use a 95% CI. The lowest end of the CI is a 48/48 tie, and the highest end of the CI is an Obama lead of 52/46. The takeaway of this poll is that we can say with 95% certainty that Obama is leading. There is only a 5% probability that the race is Romney is tied/ ahead OR that Obama is ahead by more than 6. 

Of course the poll itself is subject to sampling error, i.e. its assumptions on likely voters is inaccurate. This is why different polls give us different results. However, if a poll shows even a 1 pt. lead for a candidate, then there is a higher than 50% probability of that candidate being ahead among those that the pollster considers likely voters - the true probability can be calculated based on its MOE and CI. 

Sites like RCP, Nate Silver&#039;s fivethirtyeight.com, the Princeton Election Consortium, etc. help filter out the noise of sampling error to project true probabilities by state. I think it is pretty likely that these two sites will not be off by more than a few EVs. Silver thinks Obama is a better than 7-to-3 favorite and Princeton thinks that Obama is a better-than 9-to-1 favorite to win. It seems to me that you&#039;d be getting pretty good odds by betting on the President on Intrade today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the stat-nerdy post to follow, but I feel as though there are wide-spread misunderstandings of polling results. Let&#8217;s take an example &#8211; suppose a particular poll of likely voters in OH has a margin of error (MOE) of +/- 2 pts and shows Obama 50, Romney 46. This does not mean that the race is a statistical tie because Obama&#8217;s lead is within the MOE. The 50/46 result is the mean (or the top tip) of a normally distributed bell-curve of probabilities.  The MOE simply puts bounds around the confidence interval (CI) of the poll &#8211; most polls use a 95% CI. The lowest end of the CI is a 48/48 tie, and the highest end of the CI is an Obama lead of 52/46. The takeaway of this poll is that we can say with 95% certainty that Obama is leading. There is only a 5% probability that the race is Romney is tied/ ahead OR that Obama is ahead by more than 6. </p>
<p>Of course the poll itself is subject to sampling error, i.e. its assumptions on likely voters is inaccurate. This is why different polls give us different results. However, if a poll shows even a 1 pt. lead for a candidate, then there is a higher than 50% probability of that candidate being ahead among those that the pollster considers likely voters &#8211; the true probability can be calculated based on its MOE and CI. </p>
<p>Sites like RCP, Nate Silver&#8217;s fivethirtyeight.com, the Princeton Election Consortium, etc. help filter out the noise of sampling error to project true probabilities by state. I think it is pretty likely that these two sites will not be off by more than a few EVs. Silver thinks Obama is a better than 7-to-3 favorite and Princeton thinks that Obama is a better-than 9-to-1 favorite to win. It seems to me that you&#8217;d be getting pretty good odds by betting on the President on Intrade today.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Marshall</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29258</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 22:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29258</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, if all you intended to do is correct my diction and call me names, you&#039;re certainly welcome to. Anyone who writes is under obligation to write as well as he can and should be prepared to evaluate and make use of serious criticism from anyone.  So, point noted.

As to calling me names, I&#039;m not unfamiliar with the experience, but after 60 years I&#039;m rather deadened to it. My grade school playground days were long ago, and responding in kind is simply a bore.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if all you intended to do is correct my diction and call me names, you&#8217;re certainly welcome to. Anyone who writes is under obligation to write as well as he can and should be prepared to evaluate and make use of serious criticism from anyone.  So, point noted.</p>
<p>As to calling me names, I&#8217;m not unfamiliar with the experience, but after 60 years I&#8217;m rather deadened to it. My grade school playground days were long ago, and responding in kind is simply a bore.</p>
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		<title>By: carol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29257</link>
		<dc:creator>carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29257</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually predicting presidental elections is quite easy.  I have predicted..exactly the last two.  Each state has its own history and story..making the electoral college fascinating.  2012.........obama 237 guaranteed romney 206...florida(29) romney by 3. fla has a obama distast
e..virginia(13) romney by 1.5 va trending obama with sou. Va more enthused..colorado(9) romney by 1.5 olmpic job well known in colo...obama 237 romney 257. Iowa(6) obama by 2. Obama mania 2008 started here..nevada(6) romney by 1.5. High mormon vote plus bad econ. New hamp(4) romney by 1.5.  Mitt home . independents and nascar vote. Wisc
onsin(10) romn
ey by 2.5  vote.  Dem walkout and
 republin enthusiasm.  Ohio(18) obama by 2 auto bailout. Final romney 276 obama 261]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually predicting presidental elections is quite easy.  I have predicted..exactly the last two.  Each state has its own history and story..making the electoral college fascinating.  2012&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;obama 237 guaranteed romney 206&#8230;florida(29) romney by 3. fla has a obama distast<br />
e..virginia(13) romney by 1.5 va trending obama with sou. Va more enthused..colorado(9) romney by 1.5 olmpic job well known in colo&#8230;obama 237 romney 257. Iowa(6) obama by 2. Obama mania 2008 started here..nevada(6) romney by 1.5. High mormon vote plus bad econ. New hamp(4) romney by 1.5.  Mitt home . independents and nascar vote. Wisc<br />
onsin(10) romn<br />
ey by 2.5  vote.  Dem walkout and<br />
 republin enthusiasm.  Ohio(18) obama by 2 auto bailout. Final romney 276 obama 261</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/10/29/back-to-a-tie/comment-page-1/#comment-29256</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9284#comment-29256</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian,

I think Joseph Marshall meant &quot;extrapolate&quot; (not &quot;interpolate&quot;).  Aside from that, everything he stated made sense to me.

For someone who supposedly has a PhD in physics, your argument and counter contain very little substance.

Sorry for the late response, I just found this site.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>I think Joseph Marshall meant &#8220;extrapolate&#8221; (not &#8220;interpolate&#8221;).  Aside from that, everything he stated made sense to me.</p>
<p>For someone who supposedly has a PhD in physics, your argument and counter contain very little substance.</p>
<p>Sorry for the late response, I just found this site.</p>
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