<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Christian (Catholic?) View on Heaven, Marriage, and Celibacy.  (Or the Good News is That Even Christian Marriage is Temporary?)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 20 Jun 2013 00:28:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mrsschiavolin</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30235</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrsschiavolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 22:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If grounding is not the right word, what I mean to say is that generation is the starting point, not working backward from the Trinitarian analogy.  The erotic dimension supports our bodily and social union with one another (man cleaves to woman all the more seeing his reflection in her, and stays with her for life, unlike other animals). Of course ultimately for Thomas it signifies Christ &amp; the Church/bride. 

What I don&#039;t see is a strong notion that sex difference enhances rationality, more that it frees us up for contemplation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If grounding is not the right word, what I mean to say is that generation is the starting point, not working backward from the Trinitarian analogy.  The erotic dimension supports our bodily and social union with one another (man cleaves to woman all the more seeing his reflection in her, and stays with her for life, unlike other animals). Of course ultimately for Thomas it signifies Christ &amp; the Church/bride. </p>
<p>What I don&#8217;t see is a strong notion that sex difference enhances rationality, more that it frees us up for contemplation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom H</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30219</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mrsschiavolin: What you say about Aquinas may be true, but we should be careful when we talk about &quot;grounding.&quot;  Even the biological realities of human life are at the service of the higher powers of the soul for Aquinas.  I suspect there&#039;s less difference here between Aquinas and, say, Gregory of Nyssa (to take maybe the strongest contrast) than is apparent at first glance.  Besides, let&#039;s remember that when Aquinas talks about the way in which the human being is made happy in the beatific vision, it is primarily through the intellect through the light of glory, and the rest of the man is made happy by a kind of overflow from the unity of the intellect with the divine essence.

Paul: well said.  I don&#039;t mean to speak for the entire Christian tradition, only to try to explain what those Fathers might have been getting at whom Peter alluded to in his talk.  There are obviously major voices in the tradition who sound different notes.  And the principle that when we&#039;re saved, nothing that makes us fundamentally who we are is left out, is exactly right.  I might quibble with you that exclusivity in loving is one of those things (if that is what you mean to say).  It does seem to me that the perfection of the mystical body of Christ in heaven, with its bringing together of the many into one, means that whatever perfection there is in exclusive loving will be extended to all by virtue of membership in the one body of Christ.  Hopefully that&#039;s sufficiently corporeal to exonerate from the charge of angelism.  Like you, I&#039;m pretty baffled as to what that will look like.  

I also find Lewis&#039; image of the artist compelling, as well.  After all, the body of Christ is still a body with members, which means it&#039;s differentiated.  So my own distinctiveness will not only be preserved, but even accentuated by full incorporation into the mystical body.  So whatever I am on earth, I will be moreso in heaven.  My personhood will be brought into its complete perfection.  As Lewis points out, it&#039;s the saints who are the most distinctive characters we know of.  And heaven will be populated only with saints.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mrsschiavolin: What you say about Aquinas may be true, but we should be careful when we talk about &#8220;grounding.&#8221;  Even the biological realities of human life are at the service of the higher powers of the soul for Aquinas.  I suspect there&#8217;s less difference here between Aquinas and, say, Gregory of Nyssa (to take maybe the strongest contrast) than is apparent at first glance.  Besides, let&#8217;s remember that when Aquinas talks about the way in which the human being is made happy in the beatific vision, it is primarily through the intellect through the light of glory, and the rest of the man is made happy by a kind of overflow from the unity of the intellect with the divine essence.</p>
<p>Paul: well said.  I don&#8217;t mean to speak for the entire Christian tradition, only to try to explain what those Fathers might have been getting at whom Peter alluded to in his talk.  There are obviously major voices in the tradition who sound different notes.  And the principle that when we&#8217;re saved, nothing that makes us fundamentally who we are is left out, is exactly right.  I might quibble with you that exclusivity in loving is one of those things (if that is what you mean to say).  It does seem to me that the perfection of the mystical body of Christ in heaven, with its bringing together of the many into one, means that whatever perfection there is in exclusive loving will be extended to all by virtue of membership in the one body of Christ.  Hopefully that&#8217;s sufficiently corporeal to exonerate from the charge of angelism.  Like you, I&#8217;m pretty baffled as to what that will look like.  </p>
<p>I also find Lewis&#8217; image of the artist compelling, as well.  After all, the body of Christ is still a body with members, which means it&#8217;s differentiated.  So my own distinctiveness will not only be preserved, but even accentuated by full incorporation into the mystical body.  So whatever I am on earth, I will be moreso in heaven.  My personhood will be brought into its complete perfection.  As Lewis points out, it&#8217;s the saints who are the most distinctive characters we know of.  And heaven will be populated only with saints.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30206</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30206</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[bryan, thanks!  paul, the big question is what does salvation (perpetuation) of &quot;me&quot; mean, and you&#039;re right to say that we&#039;re stuck with somewhat incoherent to me.  Like you, I think most of the speculation is too &quot;angelic.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bryan, thanks!  paul, the big question is what does salvation (perpetuation) of &#8220;me&#8221; mean, and you&#8217;re right to say that we&#8217;re stuck with somewhat incoherent to me.  Like you, I think most of the speculation is too &#8220;angelic.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30184</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 05:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30184</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually the question posed to Jesus regarding the seven brothers and the bride, as stated clearly in Mark 12:18, was intended to elicit Jesus&#039; ruling on resurrection.  Note that they deferentially address him as &quot;teacher&quot; even as they seek to test him.

The seven brothers refer to the seven Jewish patriarchs:  Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and Solomon.  Stephen summarizes this in Chapter 7 of Acts of the Apostles, and even to this day Orthodox Jews teach about the seven patriarchs.

Asking to whom will the bride belong refers to the Jewish doctrine of &quot;gilgul hanefesh,&quot; and was either a way for the Sadducees to determine which of those seven souls would be incarnated as the Messiah, or perhaps a cynical ploy to trick Jesus into claiming to be an incarnation of one of the patriarchs (even today some Orthodox Rabbis claim to be reincarnated prophets) in order to turn popular opinion against him. 

Jesus&#039; response was basically a legal, inoffensive way to stake his claim as a &quot;homo novus,&quot; stating that he was not an incarnation of one of the patriarchs but a new soul sent for a new age of deliverance of G-d&#039;s chosen people.

Almost everything in the Greek testament is reflected from the Hebrew testament, and there are several references in the Tanakh to G-d&#039;s chosen people being the &quot;bride&quot; of the one true G-d of Abraham.  

The particular tribe or leadership role changed at various times even throughout the &quot;Old Testament,&quot; hence the question from the Sadducees who were, like all the Judeans under pagan Roman rule, living through a particularly excruciating period of persecution, bereft of spiritual authority and leadership.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually the question posed to Jesus regarding the seven brothers and the bride, as stated clearly in Mark 12:18, was intended to elicit Jesus&#8217; ruling on resurrection.  Note that they deferentially address him as &#8220;teacher&#8221; even as they seek to test him.</p>
<p>The seven brothers refer to the seven Jewish patriarchs:  Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and Solomon.  Stephen summarizes this in Chapter 7 of Acts of the Apostles, and even to this day Orthodox Jews teach about the seven patriarchs.</p>
<p>Asking to whom will the bride belong refers to the Jewish doctrine of &#8220;gilgul hanefesh,&#8221; and was either a way for the Sadducees to determine which of those seven souls would be incarnated as the Messiah, or perhaps a cynical ploy to trick Jesus into claiming to be an incarnation of one of the patriarchs (even today some Orthodox Rabbis claim to be reincarnated prophets) in order to turn popular opinion against him. </p>
<p>Jesus&#8217; response was basically a legal, inoffensive way to stake his claim as a &#8220;homo novus,&#8221; stating that he was not an incarnation of one of the patriarchs but a new soul sent for a new age of deliverance of G-d&#8217;s chosen people.</p>
<p>Almost everything in the Greek testament is reflected from the Hebrew testament, and there are several references in the Tanakh to G-d&#8217;s chosen people being the &#8220;bride&#8221; of the one true G-d of Abraham.  </p>
<p>The particular tribe or leadership role changed at various times even throughout the &#8220;Old Testament,&#8221; hence the question from the Sadducees who were, like all the Judeans under pagan Roman rule, living through a particularly excruciating period of persecution, bereft of spiritual authority and leadership.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: paul seaton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30181</link>
		<dc:creator>paul seaton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 03:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30181</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom H. &amp; Mrsschiavolin are reproducing the argument presented by Christopher Roberts in one of the books we discussed at the BYU conference.  Absolute bottom line?   The &quot;Christian tradition&quot; is far from having one voice or position on these complex matters.   

Many years ago I gave a commencement speech at a seminary graduation:  I used C. S. Lewis&#039;s The Great Divorce to put some flesh and bones on the notion of heaven.   My guiding proposition:  our salvation and perfection must be our perfection and salvation as we really and truly are.  The latter includes our bodies, our habits, our memories, our personal identities.   I was a serious tennis player at the time; would I be &quot;perfected&quot; if my tennis playing abilities were rendered moot in heaven?   Lewis nicely presented the artist, with his particular talent, pointing out to us less-gifted blessed, the glories of God&#039;s creation by way of his expert eye and his deft hand.  Any notion of heavenly perfection that bleaches us of the foregoing would be a salvation that doesn&#039;t really save &quot;me/&quot;us.   Any notion of &quot;the beatific vision&quot; that is so overwhelming that we denigrate the aforementioned parts of our being seems incarnationally suspect to me.  The Catholic both-and seems to demand as much.   I grant that what this conjugation of &quot;totally improved-but-still-recognizable-Paul&quot; is, is quite mysterious:  &quot;Eye has not seen etc.&quot;.  But I find the &quot;we&#039;re still married but not (in some sense) exclusively-in-love and bodily-affectionate&quot;  position too angelic.   But what do I know?   I hope to find out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom H. &amp; Mrsschiavolin are reproducing the argument presented by Christopher Roberts in one of the books we discussed at the BYU conference.  Absolute bottom line?   The &#8220;Christian tradition&#8221; is far from having one voice or position on these complex matters.   </p>
<p>Many years ago I gave a commencement speech at a seminary graduation:  I used C. S. Lewis&#8217;s The Great Divorce to put some flesh and bones on the notion of heaven.   My guiding proposition:  our salvation and perfection must be our perfection and salvation as we really and truly are.  The latter includes our bodies, our habits, our memories, our personal identities.   I was a serious tennis player at the time; would I be &#8220;perfected&#8221; if my tennis playing abilities were rendered moot in heaven?   Lewis nicely presented the artist, with his particular talent, pointing out to us less-gifted blessed, the glories of God&#8217;s creation by way of his expert eye and his deft hand.  Any notion of heavenly perfection that bleaches us of the foregoing would be a salvation that doesn&#8217;t really save &#8220;me/&#8221;us.   Any notion of &#8220;the beatific vision&#8221; that is so overwhelming that we denigrate the aforementioned parts of our being seems incarnationally suspect to me.  The Catholic both-and seems to demand as much.   I grant that what this conjugation of &#8220;totally improved-but-still-recognizable-Paul&#8221; is, is quite mysterious:  &#8220;Eye has not seen etc.&#8221;.  But I find the &#8220;we&#8217;re still married but not (in some sense) exclusively-in-love and bodily-affectionate&#8221;  position too angelic.   But what do I know?   I hope to find out.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mrsschiavolin</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30178</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrsschiavolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 02:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30178</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom H, I don&#039;t see that distinction in Aquinas. He squarely puts woman as the necessary helpmate in the work of generation and childrearing. Sex difference is more pronounced in animals with higher operations. Since &quot;homo&quot; is called to &quot;intellegere,&quot; it is fitting that the lower operation of generation is carried out by the occasional union of complementary sexes (unlike plants, where both sexes may be found in one individual).

Aquinas seems more grounded in the biological reality (from which he moves higher into morality and sacramental signification) than the Fathers you mention.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom H, I don&#8217;t see that distinction in Aquinas. He squarely puts woman as the necessary helpmate in the work of generation and childrearing. Sex difference is more pronounced in animals with higher operations. Since &#8220;homo&#8221; is called to &#8220;intellegere,&#8221; it is fitting that the lower operation of generation is carried out by the occasional union of complementary sexes (unlike plants, where both sexes may be found in one individual).</p>
<p>Aquinas seems more grounded in the biological reality (from which he moves higher into morality and sacramental signification) than the Fathers you mention.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate Pitrone</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30173</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Pitrone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What about the Church as the Bride of Christ?  Aren&#039;t we supposed to assume a level of intimacy in that, an eternal union, that is 1) reflected somehow in the Adam and Eve relationship 2) a reunion of body and spirit 3) making singular a multiplicity in the Church and in the Trinity that is reconciled by and in God in ways the human mind might not ever be able to grasp?  If God took Eve out of Adam then marriage means a semi-reunion of the parts of the image of God that Adam originally was.  

This is my speculation and not my church&#039;s theology, which may consign all of this to mystery.  That might be wiser than speculation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the Church as the Bride of Christ?  Aren&#8217;t we supposed to assume a level of intimacy in that, an eternal union, that is 1) reflected somehow in the Adam and Eve relationship 2) a reunion of body and spirit 3) making singular a multiplicity in the Church and in the Trinity that is reconciled by and in God in ways the human mind might not ever be able to grasp?  If God took Eve out of Adam then marriage means a semi-reunion of the parts of the image of God that Adam originally was.  </p>
<p>This is my speculation and not my church&#8217;s theology, which may consign all of this to mystery.  That might be wiser than speculation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom H</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30165</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30165</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good question, Peter.  I&#039;m not entirely sure.  Although I think maybe that erotic love will be perfected in heaven in charity.  After all, eros is a movement of the will to obtain a good it lacks.  But there is no lack in the beatific vision, since the man or woman will be in possession of the infinite good, God (or, the infinite good, God, will possess the man or woman).  So what eros aims at will be perfectly attained, allowing eros to give way to agape.  So here&#039;s where GeoSmiley&#039;s point comes back.  Just as Christ says he fulfills the law, not abolishes; just so, the beatific vision fulfills eros, not abolishes it.

And, of course, we both know that, if I know anything, it&#039;s mostly because of our mutual friend, anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question, Peter.  I&#8217;m not entirely sure.  Although I think maybe that erotic love will be perfected in heaven in charity.  After all, eros is a movement of the will to obtain a good it lacks.  But there is no lack in the beatific vision, since the man or woman will be in possession of the infinite good, God (or, the infinite good, God, will possess the man or woman).  So what eros aims at will be perfectly attained, allowing eros to give way to agape.  So here&#8217;s where GeoSmiley&#8217;s point comes back.  Just as Christ says he fulfills the law, not abolishes; just so, the beatific vision fulfills eros, not abolishes it.</p>
<p>And, of course, we both know that, if I know anything, it&#8217;s mostly because of our mutual friend, anyway.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30164</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And we could ask Larry David whether celibate forever is better or worse than married FOREVER?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And we could ask Larry David whether celibate forever is better or worse than married FOREVER?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/15/the-christian-catholic-view-on-heaven-marriage-and-celibacy-or-the-good-news-is-that-even-christian-marriage-is-temporary/comment-page-1/#comment-30163</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9593#comment-30163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom H, we may to reevaluate this greatest theologian thing.  So does is erotic love in heaven--freed once again from death and so the necessity of procreation--still depend in some way on sexual differentiation?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom H, we may to reevaluate this greatest theologian thing.  So does is erotic love in heaven&#8211;freed once again from death and so the necessity of procreation&#8211;still depend in some way on sexual differentiation?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
