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	<title>Comments on: The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/</link>
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		<title>By: CJ Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30840</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ Wolfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had a specific quote from Douglas&#039; opinion in mind, Brad. I don&#039;t buy what he says for a second (this is the same womanizing Justice Douglas who had already been married 3 times), but this is what he says:

&quot;Would we allow the police to search the sacred precincts of marital bedrooms for telltale signs of the use of contraceptives? The very idea is repulsive to the notions of privacy surrounding the marriage relationship. We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights -- older than our political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to the degree of being sacred.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a specific quote from Douglas&#8217; opinion in mind, Brad. I don&#8217;t buy what he says for a second (this is the same womanizing Justice Douglas who had already been married 3 times), but this is what he says:</p>
<p>&#8220;Would we allow the police to search the sacred precincts of marital bedrooms for telltale signs of the use of contraceptives? The very idea is repulsive to the notions of privacy surrounding the marriage relationship. We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights &#8212; older than our political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to the degree of being sacred.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30830</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30830</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CJ, are you saying with Douglas that the penumbras and emanations of the BOR recognize/provide constitutional protection for something more &quot;sacred&quot; or &quot;noble&quot; than the Court-created right of individual autonomy? Tough argument for an originalist to make i take it, but one worth considering.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CJ, are you saying with Douglas that the penumbras and emanations of the BOR recognize/provide constitutional protection for something more &#8220;sacred&#8221; or &#8220;noble&#8221; than the Court-created right of individual autonomy? Tough argument for an originalist to make i take it, but one worth considering.</p>
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		<title>By: MONDAY MORNING GOD &#38; CAESAR EDITION &#124; Big Pulpit</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30814</link>
		<dc:creator>MONDAY MORNING GOD &#38; CAESAR EDITION &#124; Big Pulpit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30814</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Heretical View of Modern Marriage &#8211; Peter Lawler, PoMoCon [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Heretical View of Modern Marriage &#8211; Peter Lawler, PoMoCon [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog)</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30789</link>
		<dc:creator>The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 03:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30789</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern MarriageFirst Things (blog)So Protestants in their ways degraded marriage by depriving it of sacramental status as a manifestation of the divine personal logos in the world. Marriage became predominately natural but still holy and Christian. It wasn&#039;t rechained to the paganism &#8230; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern MarriageFirst Things (blog)So Protestants in their ways degraded marriage by depriving it of sacramental status as a manifestation of the divine personal logos in the world. Marriage became predominately natural but still holy and Christian. It wasn&#039;t rechained to the paganism &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8230; &#124; Love Advice</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30785</link>
		<dc:creator>The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8230; &#124; Love Advice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 03:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Marriage is a contract to have regular access to one &#8230; &#8230;   Here is the original post: The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8230;      &#8592; My Parents Divorced, Will My Marriage Fail Too? &#124; Care2 Healthy [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Marriage is a contract to have regular access to one &#8230; &#8230;   Here is the original post: The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8230;      &#8592; My Parents Divorced, Will My Marriage Fail Too? | Care2 Healthy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: William Harper</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30781</link>
		<dc:creator>William Harper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 01:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30781</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could you connect the particular criticisms of Locke you have to the opening thoughts that suggest that Protestants are responsible for marriage degradation?  Is Protestantism inherently Lockean?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could you connect the particular criticisms of Locke you have to the opening thoughts that suggest that Protestants are responsible for marriage degradation?  Is Protestantism inherently Lockean?</p>
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		<title>By: John Presnall</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30780</link>
		<dc:creator>John Presnall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 01:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So the question I have is--Why did this Lockean understanding of the sacrament of marriage become paramount today? Apart from court decisions, the decision for the Constitution itself led to certain nationalizing tendencies (say, with regard to state establishments of religion) by the 1830s, let alone to the later incorporation of the the Bill of Rights vis a vis the 14th amendment, strongly read.

But this is a legalistic argument, so it seems to go back to Lockean arguments which must have superseded more traditional arguments.

This reminds me of Thomas Pangle&#039;s argument in The Spirit of Modern Republicanism in his chapter on the &quot;rational family.&quot; Such ideas of contracts between free and equal human beings somehow become paramount based on the overwhelming influence of Locke--which cannot be denied--but whose work is done through the courts, as well as through predominant modes of discourse in the media and in academia (those who educate the teachers, as Marx would have it).

So we are now suffering through the unintended consequences of the &quot;rational family,&quot; i.e., what to do with those elders who keep on living beyond expectations of mortality, but to whom the younger generation in its claim for free self-determination finds overly burdensome. Has freedom for the youth become slavery for their elders as the youth enter their majority?

Somehow the familial contract was a rational utilitarian calculation that went something as follows (borrowing from an insight of Machiavelli about the solidity of a son calculating his own obligations): the parents would demand certain things from children while they were vulnerable, but once they achieved majority they would be free to pursue their own ambitions. However, children might be rationally disposed to assist elderly parents in their dotage as long as there was an estate to be inherited.

Longevity of life and the immense costs of healthcare in old age seem to call this &quot;rationality&quot; into question. 

Your account of the family calls all of this calculus into question too (but on deeper grounds), and I agree with your take. But what to do with the effectual truth that Lockeanism made popular has had on today&#039;s families?

A poignant take on problems of the issue of the &quot;rational family&quot; as it shows itself through generations is Olivier Assayas&#039;s film Summer Hours.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0836700/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the question I have is&#8211;Why did this Lockean understanding of the sacrament of marriage become paramount today? Apart from court decisions, the decision for the Constitution itself led to certain nationalizing tendencies (say, with regard to state establishments of religion) by the 1830s, let alone to the later incorporation of the the Bill of Rights vis a vis the 14th amendment, strongly read.</p>
<p>But this is a legalistic argument, so it seems to go back to Lockean arguments which must have superseded more traditional arguments.</p>
<p>This reminds me of Thomas Pangle&#8217;s argument in The Spirit of Modern Republicanism in his chapter on the &#8220;rational family.&#8221; Such ideas of contracts between free and equal human beings somehow become paramount based on the overwhelming influence of Locke&#8211;which cannot be denied&#8211;but whose work is done through the courts, as well as through predominant modes of discourse in the media and in academia (those who educate the teachers, as Marx would have it).</p>
<p>So we are now suffering through the unintended consequences of the &#8220;rational family,&#8221; i.e., what to do with those elders who keep on living beyond expectations of mortality, but to whom the younger generation in its claim for free self-determination finds overly burdensome. Has freedom for the youth become slavery for their elders as the youth enter their majority?</p>
<p>Somehow the familial contract was a rational utilitarian calculation that went something as follows (borrowing from an insight of Machiavelli about the solidity of a son calculating his own obligations): the parents would demand certain things from children while they were vulnerable, but once they achieved majority they would be free to pursue their own ambitions. However, children might be rationally disposed to assist elderly parents in their dotage as long as there was an estate to be inherited.</p>
<p>Longevity of life and the immense costs of healthcare in old age seem to call this &#8220;rationality&#8221; into question. </p>
<p>Your account of the family calls all of this calculus into question too (but on deeper grounds), and I agree with your take. But what to do with the effectual truth that Lockeanism made popular has had on today&#8217;s families?</p>
<p>A poignant take on problems of the issue of the &#8220;rational family&#8221; as it shows itself through generations is Olivier Assayas&#8217;s film Summer Hours.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0836700/" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0836700/</a></p>
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		<title>By: CJ Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30779</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ Wolfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2012 23:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great stuff Peter, keep these marriage articles coming. Marriage is an extremely written-about topic these days in all sorts of Conservative media, but you&#039;re coming at it from an interesting angle. 

Two points: With regard to the Court, don&#039;t forget the old &quot;Griswold v. Connecticut&quot; line of argument (ironically) put forward by Justice Douglas about the &quot;sacredness&quot; of the marriage chamber. By focusing on the PLACE where marital action occurs Douglas appealed in a way to the property right notion that &quot;Man&#039;s home is his castle.&quot; The court quickly dumped this appeal in &quot;Eisenstadt v. Baird,&quot; rooting privacy (and access to contraceptives) to a right over one&#039;s own body and person.

Two: Your discusions of Christian Heresy have a very good test case in Jefferson, of course. That&#039;s who I was thinking of when you wrote:
&quot;Locke’s intention is sometimes said to be anti-Christian, but he actually wanted to reform Christianity to tell the whole truth about the free person the early Christians discovered.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great stuff Peter, keep these marriage articles coming. Marriage is an extremely written-about topic these days in all sorts of Conservative media, but you&#8217;re coming at it from an interesting angle. </p>
<p>Two points: With regard to the Court, don&#8217;t forget the old &#8220;Griswold v. Connecticut&#8221; line of argument (ironically) put forward by Justice Douglas about the &#8220;sacredness&#8221; of the marriage chamber. By focusing on the PLACE where marital action occurs Douglas appealed in a way to the property right notion that &#8220;Man&#8217;s home is his castle.&#8221; The court quickly dumped this appeal in &#8220;Eisenstadt v. Baird,&#8221; rooting privacy (and access to contraceptives) to a right over one&#8217;s own body and person.</p>
<p>Two: Your discusions of Christian Heresy have a very good test case in Jefferson, of course. That&#8217;s who I was thinking of when you wrote:<br />
&#8220;Locke’s intention is sometimes said to be anti-Christian, but he actually wanted to reform Christianity to tell the whole truth about the free person the early Christians discovered.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog)</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2012/11/25/the-heretical-or-christian-influenced-view-of-modern-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-30778</link>
		<dc:creator>The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2012 23:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=9699#comment-30778</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern MarriageFirst Things (blog)So now it&#039;s time for me to add the almost final section of my endless talk at BYU. It repeats, you&#039;ll complain, themes I&#039;ve shared with you in the past about the dominant American heresy–Lockeanism. But because, amazingly enough, my view of Locke as &#8230; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Heretical (or Christian-Influenced) View of Modern MarriageFirst Things (blog)So now it&#039;s time for me to add the almost final section of my endless talk at BYU. It repeats, you&#039;ll complain, themes I&#039;ve shared with you in the past about the dominant American heresy–Lockeanism. But because, amazingly enough, my view of Locke as &#8230; [...]</p>
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