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	<title>Comments on: More on the (Protestant) Christian View of Marriage</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Curtas sobre Família – 02 &#124; Humanitatis &#8211; a internet para o homem</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32965</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtas sobre Família – 02 &#124; Humanitatis &#8211; a internet para o homem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 03:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 3. Articulista protestante critica o modo desacralizado de tratar o matrimônio, especialmente entre.... Segundo o autor, Peter Lawler, os protestantes americanos compraram a crítica de John Locke ao matrimônio natural, que deriva da crítica à lei natural. O resultado é a redução do matrimônio ao estatuto civil. Dessacralizar a instituição matrimonial é o início da crise religiosa dos protestantes e (por que não?) dos cristãos em geral. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 3. Articulista protestante critica o modo desacralizado de tratar o matrimônio, especialmente entre&#8230;. Segundo o autor, Peter Lawler, os protestantes americanos compraram a crítica de John Locke ao matrimônio natural, que deriva da crítica à lei natural. O resultado é a redução do matrimônio ao estatuto civil. Dessacralizar a instituição matrimonial é o início da crise religiosa dos protestantes e (por que não?) dos cristãos em geral. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Pitrone</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32343</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Pitrone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 16:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am in one of those unorganized non-denominational Protestant churches.  Heretical, probably, although everyone can agree on the basic creeds and our &quot;doxy&quot; is pretty &quot;ortho&quot;, but also very simple, even simplistic.  One of the few organizing principles is of the idea of marriage as a covenant between God, man and woman.  Procreation is assumed as part of marriage and most of the church consists of large families now into a second generation.  

Locke -- I thought he assumed a social compact which might limit government, but not social ties.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in one of those unorganized non-denominational Protestant churches.  Heretical, probably, although everyone can agree on the basic creeds and our &#8220;doxy&#8221; is pretty &#8220;ortho&#8221;, but also very simple, even simplistic.  One of the few organizing principles is of the idea of marriage as a covenant between God, man and woman.  Procreation is assumed as part of marriage and most of the church consists of large families now into a second generation.  </p>
<p>Locke &#8212; I thought he assumed a social compact which might limit government, but not social ties.</p>
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		<title>By: Mick Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32342</link>
		<dc:creator>Mick Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Lawler:  I am puzzled with your comments.  As a Lutheran, I have to wonder if you have been present for sermons on marriage in the Lutheran Church or have read Luther&#039;s comments concerning marriage--or for that matter the nearly 500 years of Lutheran writings on marriage.  I believe you might find that the Lutheran view of marriage is quite a bit more elevated than you have given it credit.  

Perhaps confusion stems from a misunderstanding of the Lutheran distinction between what is a sacrament and what is &quot;sacramental&quot;.  All sacraments are sacramental--but not all that is sacramental is a sacrament.  In Lutheran theology, to be a sacrament three things must be present:  1.) That there is a Biblical command.  2.)  There is a Biblical promise of grace.  And 3.) An earthly element.

Jesus issued no command to marry nor did He give a promise of grace through marriage.  The crux of the matter is that marriage does not deliver forgiveness of sins--which in the Lutheran view is the very essence of a sacrament.

But marriage can be sacramental.  Blessings can and will flow.  That God is the third partner in the marriage between a man and a woman and marriage is a prefigurement of the world to come have long been themes in Lutheran preaching.  At least in every Lutheran wedding I have been to (and reflected in the marriage liturgy to be found in Lutheran hymnals), prayers for the blessing of children to the couple are ever present.

It seems to be a common trope among Catholics commentators that with Luther everything started to fall apart in Western Civilization.  The truth is Luther never wanted to leave the Catholic Church--he sought its restoration.  It was the foolishness of the Pope to have kicked Luther and his followers out of the Church.  With a more deft and patient hand on the part of the Church, much if not most of the reformers would have remained in the fold.

Be that as it may, I believe that on further investigation you will find Lutheran teaching is far closer to Catholic instruction than perhaps you may believe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Lawler:  I am puzzled with your comments.  As a Lutheran, I have to wonder if you have been present for sermons on marriage in the Lutheran Church or have read Luther&#8217;s comments concerning marriage&#8211;or for that matter the nearly 500 years of Lutheran writings on marriage.  I believe you might find that the Lutheran view of marriage is quite a bit more elevated than you have given it credit.  </p>
<p>Perhaps confusion stems from a misunderstanding of the Lutheran distinction between what is a sacrament and what is &#8220;sacramental&#8221;.  All sacraments are sacramental&#8211;but not all that is sacramental is a sacrament.  In Lutheran theology, to be a sacrament three things must be present:  1.) That there is a Biblical command.  2.)  There is a Biblical promise of grace.  And 3.) An earthly element.</p>
<p>Jesus issued no command to marry nor did He give a promise of grace through marriage.  The crux of the matter is that marriage does not deliver forgiveness of sins&#8211;which in the Lutheran view is the very essence of a sacrament.</p>
<p>But marriage can be sacramental.  Blessings can and will flow.  That God is the third partner in the marriage between a man and a woman and marriage is a prefigurement of the world to come have long been themes in Lutheran preaching.  At least in every Lutheran wedding I have been to (and reflected in the marriage liturgy to be found in Lutheran hymnals), prayers for the blessing of children to the couple are ever present.</p>
<p>It seems to be a common trope among Catholics commentators that with Luther everything started to fall apart in Western Civilization.  The truth is Luther never wanted to leave the Catholic Church&#8211;he sought its restoration.  It was the foolishness of the Pope to have kicked Luther and his followers out of the Church.  With a more deft and patient hand on the part of the Church, much if not most of the reformers would have remained in the fold.</p>
<p>Be that as it may, I believe that on further investigation you will find Lutheran teaching is far closer to Catholic instruction than perhaps you may believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Corey</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32331</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 06:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A good, theologically serious, protestant account of marriage and sex can be found in three of Tim Keller&#039;s sermons (he&#039;s PCA, but what he had to say sounded right to me as a Southern Baptist as well). He&#039;s also written a book on marriage called, &quot;The Meaning of Marriage.&quot; Not that any of my Catholic friends need one, but these are a good primer on what most protestants think on marriage. 

Conveniently, you can download some of his sermons from itunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/timothy-keller-podcast/id352660924). The sermon titles are: &quot;Marriage as Commitment and Priority;&quot; &quot;Sexuality and Christian Hope;&quot; and &quot;Love and Lust.&quot; 

I suspect you won&#039;t hear much that&#039;s new, but you may be surprised by just how &quot;sacramental&quot; a view of marriage it is, and also by the non-abandonment of celibacy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good, theologically serious, protestant account of marriage and sex can be found in three of Tim Keller&#8217;s sermons (he&#8217;s PCA, but what he had to say sounded right to me as a Southern Baptist as well). He&#8217;s also written a book on marriage called, &#8220;The Meaning of Marriage.&#8221; Not that any of my Catholic friends need one, but these are a good primer on what most protestants think on marriage. </p>
<p>Conveniently, you can download some of his sermons from itunes (<a href="https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/timothy-keller-podcast/id352660924" rel="nofollow">https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/timothy-keller-podcast/id352660924</a>). The sermon titles are: &#8220;Marriage as Commitment and Priority;&#8221; &#8220;Sexuality and Christian Hope;&#8221; and &#8220;Love and Lust.&#8221; </p>
<p>I suspect you won&#8217;t hear much that&#8217;s new, but you may be surprised by just how &#8220;sacramental&#8221; a view of marriage it is, and also by the non-abandonment of celibacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32321</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2013 20:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While Mormons allow for divorce, the Mormon ideal is &quot;celestial [heavenly] marriage&quot;, marriage that will continue through eternity, and not end with the death of one of the spouses.  It is an ordinance that can only be conducted by a specially ordained priest within a specially dedicated temple.  Mormons marry the person they plan to be resurrected with.  

And they anticipate that their children will continue to be their sons and daughters throughout eternity as well.  Combined with the belief that children lived with God before birth, the value of each child is infinitely multiplied in this view, and so Mormons have more children than their neighbors, even though they are not barred from using contraceptives.  Based on my own observations, even today the median Mormon family has about five children.  The anticipated state of mankind in the resurrection is that each person will be eternally &quot;sealed&quot; to her parents and ancestors, and to her children and descendants, in a great web of everlasting loving relationships.  That valuation of the holiness and permanency of our family relationships leads us to be more willing to invest in them in the here and now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While Mormons allow for divorce, the Mormon ideal is &#8220;celestial [heavenly] marriage&#8221;, marriage that will continue through eternity, and not end with the death of one of the spouses.  It is an ordinance that can only be conducted by a specially ordained priest within a specially dedicated temple.  Mormons marry the person they plan to be resurrected with.  </p>
<p>And they anticipate that their children will continue to be their sons and daughters throughout eternity as well.  Combined with the belief that children lived with God before birth, the value of each child is infinitely multiplied in this view, and so Mormons have more children than their neighbors, even though they are not barred from using contraceptives.  Based on my own observations, even today the median Mormon family has about five children.  The anticipated state of mankind in the resurrection is that each person will be eternally &#8220;sealed&#8221; to her parents and ancestors, and to her children and descendants, in a great web of everlasting loving relationships.  That valuation of the holiness and permanency of our family relationships leads us to be more willing to invest in them in the here and now.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32312</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2013 11:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32312</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Protestant marriage also weakened when its meaning was separated from procreation. Catholic wedding ceremonies must always mention children; Protestant weddings often do not mention children and the mentioning is optional. So marriage becomes a matter of romantic love and friendship --which can wax and wane --leading to what marriage is today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Protestant marriage also weakened when its meaning was separated from procreation. Catholic wedding ceremonies must always mention children; Protestant weddings often do not mention children and the mentioning is optional. So marriage becomes a matter of romantic love and friendship &#8211;which can wax and wane &#8211;leading to what marriage is today.</p>
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		<title>By: John Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32311</link>
		<dc:creator>John Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2013 11:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The great and unlooked for discoveries that have taken place of late years in postmodern conservative philosophy, the increasing diffusion of general knowledge from the extension of the art of blogging, the ardent and unshackled spirit of inquiry that prevails throughout the lettered and even unlettered world, the new and extraordinary lights that have been thrown on political subjects which dazzle and astonish the
understanding, and particularly that tremendous phenomenon in the political horizon, the Arab Spring, which, like a blazing comet, seems destined either to inspire with fresh life and vigour, or to scorch up and destroy the shrinking inhabitants of the earth, have all concurred to lead many able men into the opinion that we were touching on a period big with the most important changes, changes that would in
some measure be decisive of the future fate of mankind.

Thus actually begins, or close enough to get me in trouble for plagerism in the right venue, an essay on Population by a Rev. in the Anglican Church who might perchance slightly dispute Fr. Gardner&#039;s characterization, circa (1798). 

Of course he tended to believe that God made man, man. Silly Malthus! &quot;as we have not hitherto seen any alteration in them, we have no right to conclude that they will ever cease to be what they now are, without an immediate act of power in that Being who first arranged the system of the universe, and for the advantage of his creatures, still executes, according to fixed laws, all its various operations.&quot;

Thus he eroneously claimed that: &quot;I think it will be allowed, that no state has hitherto existed (at least that we have any
account of) where the manners were so pure and simple, and the means of subsistence so abundant, that no check whatever has existed to early marriages, among the lower classes, from a fear of not providing well for their families, or among the higher classes, from a fear of lowering their condition in life.&quot;

But Malthus while starting with the example of America forgot our foundational Article I Section 8, clause 8 American Exceptionalism!  In terms of copyright, well everyone likes to tell a brighter story about themselves and what they believe, this in turn leads to an improvement in Servicemark or self-pride, thus neglecting not only american exceptionalism, but also Anglican and Catholic Exceptionalism.  I have no nature created by God, I am a Catholic!  Oh yeah, my Baptist church also recognizes the Sacrament, and we pray directly to God, so I am going to prove it to you with my WWJD bracelet.  In addition Malthus&#039;s Island probably really missed the boat on Monsanto (patent). 

Malthus (Copyright Pwned, Trademark Pwned, Patent Pwned) but essentially not altogether irrelevant. 

Since it is close to what I might believe, just how heretical is this?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The great and unlooked for discoveries that have taken place of late years in postmodern conservative philosophy, the increasing diffusion of general knowledge from the extension of the art of blogging, the ardent and unshackled spirit of inquiry that prevails throughout the lettered and even unlettered world, the new and extraordinary lights that have been thrown on political subjects which dazzle and astonish the<br />
understanding, and particularly that tremendous phenomenon in the political horizon, the Arab Spring, which, like a blazing comet, seems destined either to inspire with fresh life and vigour, or to scorch up and destroy the shrinking inhabitants of the earth, have all concurred to lead many able men into the opinion that we were touching on a period big with the most important changes, changes that would in<br />
some measure be decisive of the future fate of mankind.</p>
<p>Thus actually begins, or close enough to get me in trouble for plagerism in the right venue, an essay on Population by a Rev. in the Anglican Church who might perchance slightly dispute Fr. Gardner&#8217;s characterization, circa (1798). </p>
<p>Of course he tended to believe that God made man, man. Silly Malthus! &#8220;as we have not hitherto seen any alteration in them, we have no right to conclude that they will ever cease to be what they now are, without an immediate act of power in that Being who first arranged the system of the universe, and for the advantage of his creatures, still executes, according to fixed laws, all its various operations.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thus he eroneously claimed that: &#8220;I think it will be allowed, that no state has hitherto existed (at least that we have any<br />
account of) where the manners were so pure and simple, and the means of subsistence so abundant, that no check whatever has existed to early marriages, among the lower classes, from a fear of not providing well for their families, or among the higher classes, from a fear of lowering their condition in life.&#8221;</p>
<p>But Malthus while starting with the example of America forgot our foundational Article I Section 8, clause 8 American Exceptionalism!  In terms of copyright, well everyone likes to tell a brighter story about themselves and what they believe, this in turn leads to an improvement in Servicemark or self-pride, thus neglecting not only american exceptionalism, but also Anglican and Catholic Exceptionalism.  I have no nature created by God, I am a Catholic!  Oh yeah, my Baptist church also recognizes the Sacrament, and we pray directly to God, so I am going to prove it to you with my WWJD bracelet.  In addition Malthus&#8217;s Island probably really missed the boat on Monsanto (patent). </p>
<p>Malthus (Copyright Pwned, Trademark Pwned, Patent Pwned) but essentially not altogether irrelevant. </p>
<p>Since it is close to what I might believe, just how heretical is this?</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. W. M. Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32299</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. W. M. Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 21:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is an interesting point: that perhaps the abandonment of celibacy contributed to the eventual desacralization of marriage.
I wonder if this same desacralization of marriage (of marriage being less sacramental)led to an earlier decline in fertility among Protestants, who among their founders were very solicitous about fruitfulness in marriage.  Meanwhile, this same phenomenon of declining fertility is rapidly taking hold among Catholics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is an interesting point: that perhaps the abandonment of celibacy contributed to the eventual desacralization of marriage.<br />
I wonder if this same desacralization of marriage (of marriage being less sacramental)led to an earlier decline in fertility among Protestants, who among their founders were very solicitous about fruitfulness in marriage.  Meanwhile, this same phenomenon of declining fertility is rapidly taking hold among Catholics.</p>
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		<title>By: More on the (Protestant) Christian View of Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog) &#124; Christian News</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32297</link>
		<dc:creator>More on the (Protestant) Christian View of Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog) &#124; Christian News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 20:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Christian News Source- news.google.com [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Christian News Source- news.google.com [...]</p>
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		<title>By: More on the (Protestant) Christian View of Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog)</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/01/more-on-the-protestant-christian-view-of-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-32294</link>
		<dc:creator>More on the (Protestant) Christian View of Marriage &#8211; First Things (blog)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 19:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10101#comment-32294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] More on the (Protestant) Christian View of MarriageFirst Things (blog)So Protestants in their way degraded marriage by depriving it of sacramental status as a manifestation of the divine personal logos in this world. Marriage became predominately natural but still somewhat Christian. It wasn&#039;t rechained to the paganism &#8230; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] More on the (Protestant) Christian View of MarriageFirst Things (blog)So Protestants in their way degraded marriage by depriving it of sacramental status as a manifestation of the divine personal logos in this world. Marriage became predominately natural but still somewhat Christian. It wasn&#039;t rechained to the paganism &#8230; [...]</p>
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