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	<title>Comments on: Being Schooled in IR</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 17:19:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: djf</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32573</link>
		<dc:creator>djf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 01:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Bates,

The suicide bombing stopped because Israel massively cracked down on the terrorists in the West Bank, employed rigorous screening at border checkpoints (for which it was taken to task by such worthies as Condoleeza Rice), and built a security fence (the kind we are told will not work on the US/Mexico border).  Whatever funding Saddam Hussein was providing to the terrorist operations could readily be replaced, and probably was not needed in the first place (Saddam provided it for his own PR purposes).

I infer that you are probably a supporter of Israel.  Please be aware that attempting to justify the Iraq war as something the US did for Israel&#039;s sake is the last thing Israel needs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Bates,</p>
<p>The suicide bombing stopped because Israel massively cracked down on the terrorists in the West Bank, employed rigorous screening at border checkpoints (for which it was taken to task by such worthies as Condoleeza Rice), and built a security fence (the kind we are told will not work on the US/Mexico border).  Whatever funding Saddam Hussein was providing to the terrorist operations could readily be replaced, and probably was not needed in the first place (Saddam provided it for his own PR purposes).</p>
<p>I infer that you are probably a supporter of Israel.  Please be aware that attempting to justify the Iraq war as something the US did for Israel&#8217;s sake is the last thing Israel needs.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford Bates</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32571</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford Bates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter, the invasion of Iraq ended Saddam&#039;s funding the suicide bombing campaign that was going on Israel between 99-04!  People forget the plague of suicide-bombings that was hitting Israel hard and killing much more Israelis than are being killed by Hamas rockets today.  There is an interesting correlation between the invasion of Iraq (which ending the 30k$ being sent to the family of suicide bombers by Saddam) and the radical decline of suicide bombing in Israel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, the invasion of Iraq ended Saddam&#8217;s funding the suicide bombing campaign that was going on Israel between 99-04!  People forget the plague of suicide-bombings that was hitting Israel hard and killing much more Israelis than are being killed by Hamas rockets today.  There is an interesting correlation between the invasion of Iraq (which ending the 30k$ being sent to the family of suicide bombers by Saddam) and the radical decline of suicide bombing in Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Spiliakos</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32570</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Spiliakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[DJF,

&quot;according to some observers, the surge worked to the extent it did because we paid off the Sunni tribes that turned against Al Qaeda and other foreign jihadi elements.&quot;

From what I&#039;ve read, the Petraeus strategy also included use of American troops in counterinsurgency operations to prevent the Sunnis who were changing sides from being slaughtered by the initially better prepared al-Qaeda forces.  The Petraeus strategy was also dependent on the Sunnis being willing to be paid off.  I think it was in a Bing West book where I read about a Sunni tribal leader telling American troops that if Iraq&#039;s Sunnis came to America, they would take over.  I suspect that attitude was a lot less prevalent in January 2007 as the Sunnis faced defeat in civil war.  I&#039;d like to think that a counterinsurgency strategy would have yielded similar results if it had been adopted several years earlier, but I can&#039;t say I&#039;m very sure of that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DJF,</p>
<p>&#8220;according to some observers, the surge worked to the extent it did because we paid off the Sunni tribes that turned against Al Qaeda and other foreign jihadi elements.&#8221;</p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve read, the Petraeus strategy also included use of American troops in counterinsurgency operations to prevent the Sunnis who were changing sides from being slaughtered by the initially better prepared al-Qaeda forces.  The Petraeus strategy was also dependent on the Sunnis being willing to be paid off.  I think it was in a Bing West book where I read about a Sunni tribal leader telling American troops that if Iraq&#8217;s Sunnis came to America, they would take over.  I suspect that attitude was a lot less prevalent in January 2007 as the Sunnis faced defeat in civil war.  I&#8217;d like to think that a counterinsurgency strategy would have yielded similar results if it had been adopted several years earlier, but I can&#8217;t say I&#8217;m very sure of that.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32567</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[djf, 
Well, you say a lot in a few words.  I&#039;ve actually written an expanded version of this post for LAW AND LIBERTY and I would like to revise quickly by quoting or paraphrasing your points.  So if you would compromise yourself by giving me your REAL NAME--either here or email plawler@berry.edu--and permission to &quot;sample&quot; with attribution (or, if you prefer, without), I&#039;d appreciate it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>djf,<br />
Well, you say a lot in a few words.  I&#8217;ve actually written an expanded version of this post for LAW AND LIBERTY and I would like to revise quickly by quoting or paraphrasing your points.  So if you would compromise yourself by giving me your REAL NAME&#8211;either here or email <a href="mailto:plawler@berry.edu">plawler@berry.edu</a>&#8211;and permission to &#8220;sample&#8221; with attribution (or, if you prefer, without), I&#8217;d appreciate it.</p>
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		<title>By: djf</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32566</link>
		<dc:creator>djf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Prof Lawler,

I would say that great minds work the same way, but - alas - neither McCain nor myself fall in that category.  ;-)

Bush&#039;s biggest failure in deciding to invade (besides underestimating the difficulty and cost of achieving an acceptable result) was, IMHO, in failing to perceive how fragile and unstable the domestic consensus in favor of the war was, and how devastating the effect of the collapse of that consensus would be to the country&#039;s ability to prudently advance its interests and principles abroad.  And how the collapse of the pro-war consensus would be exploited by the Democrats to achieve their domestic ambitions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof Lawler,</p>
<p>I would say that great minds work the same way, but &#8211; alas &#8211; neither McCain nor myself fall in that category.  ;-)</p>
<p>Bush&#8217;s biggest failure in deciding to invade (besides underestimating the difficulty and cost of achieving an acceptable result) was, IMHO, in failing to perceive how fragile and unstable the domestic consensus in favor of the war was, and how devastating the effect of the collapse of that consensus would be to the country&#8217;s ability to prudently advance its interests and principles abroad.  And how the collapse of the pro-war consensus would be exploited by the Democrats to achieve their domestic ambitions.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32564</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[djf--Your last sentence was McCain&#039;s actual position in 2008.  I heard him say that let&#039;s not talk about whether we should have invaded, but whether the surge was the right thing to do at the time.  Well, it was.  All honor to Bush for having done it.  But that ambiguous success that may or may not endure can&#039;t justify the decision to invade, which is still judged not by Bush&#039;s intentions or by the reasonableness of the decision in view of what seemed to be the facts before his eyes but by the war&#039;s effects (in terms of blood and treasure and American morale domestically and within the military and American influence in the region and the world).  And then of course there&#039;s the effect on the Iraqis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>djf&#8211;Your last sentence was McCain&#8217;s actual position in 2008.  I heard him say that let&#8217;s not talk about whether we should have invaded, but whether the surge was the right thing to do at the time.  Well, it was.  All honor to Bush for having done it.  But that ambiguous success that may or may not endure can&#8217;t justify the decision to invade, which is still judged not by Bush&#8217;s intentions or by the reasonableness of the decision in view of what seemed to be the facts before his eyes but by the war&#8217;s effects (in terms of blood and treasure and American morale domestically and within the military and American influence in the region and the world).  And then of course there&#8217;s the effect on the Iraqis.</p>
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		<title>By: djf</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32558</link>
		<dc:creator>djf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 05:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pete, according to some observers, the surge worked to the extent it did because we paid off the Sunni tribes that turned against Al Qaeda and other foreign jihadi elements.  Perhaps the surge was the best option Bush had in 2006, but its extremely qualified success cannot retroactively justify the decision to invade.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, according to some observers, the surge worked to the extent it did because we paid off the Sunni tribes that turned against Al Qaeda and other foreign jihadi elements.  Perhaps the surge was the best option Bush had in 2006, but its extremely qualified success cannot retroactively justify the decision to invade.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32557</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 04:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lots of good points.  Wars are always judged by armchair quarterbacks.  Wars are always judged by their effects.  When the effects are bad, people seek scapegoats.  So sure Bush was scapegoated, to an extent.  But that still means it&#039;s a failure problem, not a media problem.  It would have happened to Lincoln had Lee won at Antietam or had Johnston manned up and kept Sherman away from Atlanta.  Even with the victory in the CW, Lincoln had to acknowledge that nobody could have guessed how bloody and horrible it would be.  And much of the progressive movement (and its evildoing) was based on the premise that the CW founded in high principle just wasn&#039;t worth it.  The tough question of whether that war of successful liberation was worth it doesn&#039;t grab Americans anymore only because there&#039;s nobody left who actually felt its effects.

So it&#039;s easy to see why Bush&#039;s performance evaluation plunged the more he seemed clueless about the war.  And even with the surge and all that it&#039;s not so convincing to say it was all worth it. 

We shouldn&#039;t let that failure distort what we do know when it comes to Israel, Iraq etc.  But it will to some extent, and we just have to hope not to a fatal extent. The example from the movie on being spooked by uncertain intelligence on Saddam is good. In any case, &quot;Iraq&quot; will haunt us for a while.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of good points.  Wars are always judged by armchair quarterbacks.  Wars are always judged by their effects.  When the effects are bad, people seek scapegoats.  So sure Bush was scapegoated, to an extent.  But that still means it&#8217;s a failure problem, not a media problem.  It would have happened to Lincoln had Lee won at Antietam or had Johnston manned up and kept Sherman away from Atlanta.  Even with the victory in the CW, Lincoln had to acknowledge that nobody could have guessed how bloody and horrible it would be.  And much of the progressive movement (and its evildoing) was based on the premise that the CW founded in high principle just wasn&#8217;t worth it.  The tough question of whether that war of successful liberation was worth it doesn&#8217;t grab Americans anymore only because there&#8217;s nobody left who actually felt its effects.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s easy to see why Bush&#8217;s performance evaluation plunged the more he seemed clueless about the war.  And even with the surge and all that it&#8217;s not so convincing to say it was all worth it. </p>
<p>We shouldn&#8217;t let that failure distort what we do know when it comes to Israel, Iraq etc.  But it will to some extent, and we just have to hope not to a fatal extent. The example from the movie on being spooked by uncertain intelligence on Saddam is good. In any case, &#8220;Iraq&#8221; will haunt us for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Spiliakos</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32556</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Spiliakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 02:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter is absolutely right that the Bush administration did not primarily face a media problem.  They faced a failure problem from Summer 2003 to the end of 2006.  You had a situation where, by the Summer of 2006, al-Qaeda had established bases in many Sunni areas, Iran-backed militias had taken control of the street in lots of places and were targeting American troops, the Iraqi government outside the Kurdish areas was virtually helpless, much of the Iraqi security services were either ineffective or compromised by the enemy, and the US had committed neither the resources nor committed to the strategy for dealing with the various elements of the insurgency and establishing public order while taking over eight hundred dead a year for over three straight years on top of thousands and thousands wounded.  No conceivable media strategy could have changed or obscured all that.  John McCain and Norman Schwarzkopf had noted the need to increase the American troop presence to maintain public order (which implied a counterinsurgency strategy) as early as late 2004 so it wasn&#039;t like the problem was invisible.  

That doesn&#039;t mean that dumping Rumsfeld and switching to counterinsurgency in early 2005 would have yielded the same successes it did in 2007.  We can&#039;t know.  Maybe the Sunnis weren&#039;t ready to really deal until they had more experience with the jihadists and were face-to-face with the destruction of the Sunni enclaves in the Baghdad area.  One lesson to draw is that societies are really complicated and the ability of the US to intervene decisively will often come at great cost in human resources, human lives, and time and that the end result might still be ambiguous and fragile.  Maybe it might end up being easier and the outcome happier than all that, but it is very unwise to build plans on such assumptions.  I think a Republican who can say all that would, along with being right, get a lot of public sympathy

Bush deserves enormous credit for the adopting the Petraeus strategy and the combination of that strategy and the Sunni Awakening really did isolate and weaken al-Qaeda, restore a measure of public order and allow Iraqi politics to evolve in a more consensual direction (at least as compared to what was happening from 2004-2006.)  That is actually a lot though it is up to the Iraqis as to how much of those gains last.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter is absolutely right that the Bush administration did not primarily face a media problem.  They faced a failure problem from Summer 2003 to the end of 2006.  You had a situation where, by the Summer of 2006, al-Qaeda had established bases in many Sunni areas, Iran-backed militias had taken control of the street in lots of places and were targeting American troops, the Iraqi government outside the Kurdish areas was virtually helpless, much of the Iraqi security services were either ineffective or compromised by the enemy, and the US had committed neither the resources nor committed to the strategy for dealing with the various elements of the insurgency and establishing public order while taking over eight hundred dead a year for over three straight years on top of thousands and thousands wounded.  No conceivable media strategy could have changed or obscured all that.  John McCain and Norman Schwarzkopf had noted the need to increase the American troop presence to maintain public order (which implied a counterinsurgency strategy) as early as late 2004 so it wasn&#8217;t like the problem was invisible.  </p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean that dumping Rumsfeld and switching to counterinsurgency in early 2005 would have yielded the same successes it did in 2007.  We can&#8217;t know.  Maybe the Sunnis weren&#8217;t ready to really deal until they had more experience with the jihadists and were face-to-face with the destruction of the Sunni enclaves in the Baghdad area.  One lesson to draw is that societies are really complicated and the ability of the US to intervene decisively will often come at great cost in human resources, human lives, and time and that the end result might still be ambiguous and fragile.  Maybe it might end up being easier and the outcome happier than all that, but it is very unwise to build plans on such assumptions.  I think a Republican who can say all that would, along with being right, get a lot of public sympathy</p>
<p>Bush deserves enormous credit for the adopting the Petraeus strategy and the combination of that strategy and the Sunni Awakening really did isolate and weaken al-Qaeda, restore a measure of public order and allow Iraqi politics to evolve in a more consensual direction (at least as compared to what was happening from 2004-2006.)  That is actually a lot though it is up to the Iraqis as to how much of those gains last.</p>
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		<title>By: djf</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/11/being-schooled-in-ir/comment-page-1/#comment-32555</link>
		<dc:creator>djf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2013 19:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10236#comment-32555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To the foregoing, I would add that, while cuts to Defense are needed and inevitable, Hagel is the wrong man to direct them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the foregoing, I would add that, while cuts to Defense are needed and inevitable, Hagel is the wrong man to direct them.</p>
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