<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: “Gay” Marriage and the End of Conservative Lockeanism (Part 1 of 3)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 17:01:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford Bates</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33122</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford Bates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Ivan Kenneally last post nicely summaries the Ancient/Christian/Modern political problem and Locke&#039;s/Hobbes&#039; role in it.  I think Hobbes&#039;s consent as the solution to the problem of justice--the problem that lays at the heart of classical natural right--puts an end to the question with his definitive answer. Hobbes definitive answer is the nail in the coffin to classical natural right and classical political theory in a way Machaivelli did not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Ivan Kenneally last post nicely summaries the Ancient/Christian/Modern political problem and Locke&#8217;s/Hobbes&#8217; role in it.  I think Hobbes&#8217;s consent as the solution to the problem of justice&#8211;the problem that lays at the heart of classical natural right&#8211;puts an end to the question with his definitive answer. Hobbes definitive answer is the nail in the coffin to classical natural right and classical political theory in a way Machaivelli did not.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pseudoplotinus</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33099</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudoplotinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 04:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The person is not by nature or in truth part of some political whole. Lockean “regime” isn’t quite an oxymoron I guess, but the idea of being regime-dependent deep down doesn’t express the truth about who each of us.&quot;

I wonder if instead of &quot;Lockerstotle&quot; a more productive direction would be &quot;Lockestine&quot; - Lockean Augustine - inasmuch as mankinds predilection for political communities and relationships may find a better explanation as a fallen attempt to cobble together in the City of Man some vestige of what our natures (absent special revelation) recall of the City of God. 

But then that would cut against the whole point of the enlightenment which was to extricate western society&#039;s foundations from sectarianism.

On the otherhand, maybe that&#039;s the problem...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The person is not by nature or in truth part of some political whole. Lockean “regime” isn’t quite an oxymoron I guess, but the idea of being regime-dependent deep down doesn’t express the truth about who each of us.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder if instead of &#8220;Lockerstotle&#8221; a more productive direction would be &#8220;Lockestine&#8221; &#8211; Lockean Augustine &#8211; inasmuch as mankinds predilection for political communities and relationships may find a better explanation as a fallen attempt to cobble together in the City of Man some vestige of what our natures (absent special revelation) recall of the City of God. </p>
<p>But then that would cut against the whole point of the enlightenment which was to extricate western society&#8217;s foundations from sectarianism.</p>
<p>On the otherhand, maybe that&#8217;s the problem&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33086</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 05:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So I will get to Ivan&#039;s dense and smart comment soon.  Timothy,  You&#039;re right about Locke being overly optimistic about our freedom because he misunderstands or seems to misunderstand the indispensable relational conditions of human freedom--not only does he slight or deny sin but he fails to see what sin is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I will get to Ivan&#8217;s dense and smart comment soon.  Timothy,  You&#8217;re right about Locke being overly optimistic about our freedom because he misunderstands or seems to misunderstand the indispensable relational conditions of human freedom&#8211;not only does he slight or deny sin but he fails to see what sin is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ivan Kenneally</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33085</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Kenneally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 04:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33085</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, the move to government by consent versus government by nature is both a critique of Aristotle and of civil theology. In a very paradoxical way Locke radicalizes the Augustinian critique of classical philosophy by radicalizing a strain within classical philosophy itself: the ancient tension between eros and law or justice, which required a philosophic account of transcendence, gets repeated and expanded in modernity as the universalization of every individual&#039;s transcendence via the popularization of enlightenment and the rights of man. The ancient view of the liberation of man through philosophy is replaced by the political liberation of man via natural rights and rational liberation by science. And the family turns out to be a complex and important problem for Locke for several reasons, not the least of which is the combination of nature and convention in marriage (repeated by a child&#039;s free decision to grant or deny honor to parents). It complicates family even more that, in its XN expression, it is traditionally understood sub specie aeternitatis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the move to government by consent versus government by nature is both a critique of Aristotle and of civil theology. In a very paradoxical way Locke radicalizes the Augustinian critique of classical philosophy by radicalizing a strain within classical philosophy itself: the ancient tension between eros and law or justice, which required a philosophic account of transcendence, gets repeated and expanded in modernity as the universalization of every individual&#8217;s transcendence via the popularization of enlightenment and the rights of man. The ancient view of the liberation of man through philosophy is replaced by the political liberation of man via natural rights and rational liberation by science. And the family turns out to be a complex and important problem for Locke for several reasons, not the least of which is the combination of nature and convention in marriage (repeated by a child&#8217;s free decision to grant or deny honor to parents). It complicates family even more that, in its XN expression, it is traditionally understood sub specie aeternitatis.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Timothy Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33083</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 03:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33083</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The person is  not by nature or in truth part of some political whole...&quot;  So there is something of the person that is pre-political?  There is also something &quot;fallen&quot; about the human person that is often understood &quot;weakly&quot; in Locke and much of political theory and philosophy, hence leading to an overly optimistic view of human freedom.  Oops, maybe too Lutheran in my thinking?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The person is  not by nature or in truth part of some political whole&#8230;&#8221;  So there is something of the person that is pre-political?  There is also something &#8220;fallen&#8221; about the human person that is often understood &#8220;weakly&#8221; in Locke and much of political theory and philosophy, hence leading to an overly optimistic view of human freedom.  Oops, maybe too Lutheran in my thinking?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33078</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So I enjoyed the comments above:  But part of Locke is a criticism of &quot;civil theology,&quot; taken over from Christianity.  The person is not by nature or in truth part of some political whole.  Lockean &quot;regime&quot; isn&#039;t quite an oxymoron I guess, but the idea of being regime-dependent deep down doesn&#039;t express the truth about who each of us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I enjoyed the comments above:  But part of Locke is a criticism of &#8220;civil theology,&#8221; taken over from Christianity.  The person is not by nature or in truth part of some political whole.  Lockean &#8220;regime&#8221; isn&#8217;t quite an oxymoron I guess, but the idea of being regime-dependent deep down doesn&#8217;t express the truth about who each of us.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ivan Kenneally</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33077</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Kenneally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33077</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So that got sent without my full consent. Here is the rest:

.....ground in that it explores the possibility that marriage (and even family as a whole) is reduced to consent but he also chastens that radicalness by showing the somewhat horrible consequences. There&#039;s a lot of rhetorical hyperbole there that both sells and subsequently limits the scope of individual autonomy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So that got sent without my full consent. Here is the rest:</p>
<p>&#8230;..ground in that it explores the possibility that marriage (and even family as a whole) is reduced to consent but he also chastens that radicalness by showing the somewhat horrible consequences. There&#8217;s a lot of rhetorical hyperbole there that both sells and subsequently limits the scope of individual autonomy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ivan Kenneally</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33076</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Kenneally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33076</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Part of what seems to complicate the Lockean account of marriage is the political context of the argument: weakening an understanding of government on the model of family/paternity but strengthening the significance of consent. One way to do that is to assimilate familial bonds into contractual agreement. Overall, Locke&#039;s position seems to stake out pretty radical]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of what seems to complicate the Lockean account of marriage is the political context of the argument: weakening an understanding of government on the model of family/paternity but strengthening the significance of consent. One way to do that is to assimilate familial bonds into contractual agreement. Overall, Locke&#8217;s position seems to stake out pretty radical</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Lawler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33072</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33072</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So Locke&#039;s liberationism is chastened but not really compromised by a kind of sociobiological faith that understands human marriage on the model of that of the other animals (who don&#039;t stay together after the children are grown).  Nature, when it comes to marriage, doesn&#039;t speak specifically to our species--and so it doesn&#039;t depend on love or a relational bond stronger than that associated with chimp pair-bonding.  But human marriage is also a free contract between individuals--the content of which is determined wholly by the free consent of two independent wills....  What&#039;s missing is an understanding of marriage rooted in friendship or distinctively human EROS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Locke&#8217;s liberationism is chastened but not really compromised by a kind of sociobiological faith that understands human marriage on the model of that of the other animals (who don&#8217;t stay together after the children are grown).  Nature, when it comes to marriage, doesn&#8217;t speak specifically to our species&#8211;and so it doesn&#8217;t depend on love or a relational bond stronger than that associated with chimp pair-bonding.  But human marriage is also a free contract between individuals&#8211;the content of which is determined wholly by the free consent of two independent wills&#8230;.  What&#8217;s missing is an understanding of marriage rooted in friendship or distinctively human EROS.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cole Simmons</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/01/29/gay-marriage-and-the-end-of-conservative-lockeanism-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-33071</link>
		<dc:creator>Cole Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10514#comment-33071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The natural rights theory of Locke is: First, the recognition that the &quot;good&quot; (it might be better to say &quot;noble&quot;) without any support in nature is only dubiously good, and Second, is an attempt to find a point of intersection between them. Locke attempts to find a natural justification of placing the polity before yourself.

The birth and rearing of children is not only beneficial to the polity (strictly &quot;utilitarian&quot;), it is forced upon people by nature. If human beings, by Nature and Nature&#039;s God, have a certain nature, it can be only right - if anything is right - to answer to that nature.

Now, I&#039;m not of the opinion that Locke accomplishes this for the following reason: When you look at the other two natural duties Locke supplies, they truthfully boil down to the preservation of self. Those duties are: First, respect the equal station of other human beings and Second, preserve your life. Why do you respect the equal stature of other humans? To preserve your life. You don&#039;t want to make them angry, because when there is an abundance of goods (which there is in Locke’s S.o.N.) it is a needless endangerment (a vainglorious one) to oneself. Revisiting the Third duty, why are human beings called to bear and rear children? It has to do with women (remember, this is in the S.o.N.) attempting to secure the male for her and her progeny&#039;s preservation, and manipulating the male sex drive to accomplish that end. (I am fully aware that this is a rosy view, but we do see such things in the animal kingdom.)

In sum: Locke makes duties to others out of the desire for self-preservation. He accomplishes this by placing natural man in a condition of material abundance - which therefore makes it unreasonable to do things that seem malicious to other human beings, there being no need. (And dangerous to needlessly withhold aid to others, which would view this as malicious.) These duties break down once a condition of scarcity develops, wherein the right of self-preservation asserts itself over any and all duties to others. And when, in such a state, men find themselves with no common judge, when political leaders find themselves in such a state with no common judge, this scarcity might even be used to justify the enslavement of other human beings.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The natural rights theory of Locke is: First, the recognition that the &#8220;good&#8221; (it might be better to say &#8220;noble&#8221;) without any support in nature is only dubiously good, and Second, is an attempt to find a point of intersection between them. Locke attempts to find a natural justification of placing the polity before yourself.</p>
<p>The birth and rearing of children is not only beneficial to the polity (strictly &#8220;utilitarian&#8221;), it is forced upon people by nature. If human beings, by Nature and Nature&#8217;s God, have a certain nature, it can be only right &#8211; if anything is right &#8211; to answer to that nature.</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m not of the opinion that Locke accomplishes this for the following reason: When you look at the other two natural duties Locke supplies, they truthfully boil down to the preservation of self. Those duties are: First, respect the equal station of other human beings and Second, preserve your life. Why do you respect the equal stature of other humans? To preserve your life. You don&#8217;t want to make them angry, because when there is an abundance of goods (which there is in Locke’s S.o.N.) it is a needless endangerment (a vainglorious one) to oneself. Revisiting the Third duty, why are human beings called to bear and rear children? It has to do with women (remember, this is in the S.o.N.) attempting to secure the male for her and her progeny&#8217;s preservation, and manipulating the male sex drive to accomplish that end. (I am fully aware that this is a rosy view, but we do see such things in the animal kingdom.)</p>
<p>In sum: Locke makes duties to others out of the desire for self-preservation. He accomplishes this by placing natural man in a condition of material abundance &#8211; which therefore makes it unreasonable to do things that seem malicious to other human beings, there being no need. (And dangerous to needlessly withhold aid to others, which would view this as malicious.) These duties break down once a condition of scarcity develops, wherein the right of self-preservation asserts itself over any and all duties to others. And when, in such a state, men find themselves with no common judge, when political leaders find themselves in such a state with no common judge, this scarcity might even be used to justify the enslavement of other human beings.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
