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	<title>Comments on: A Big Country Part II: A Country Class Revolt For The Whole County</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Pete Spiliakos</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/comment-page-1/#comment-33934</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Spiliakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10910#comment-33934</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kate, future retirees would not have &quot;paid all their working lives for the benefit.&quot;  They would have exchanged paying lower taxes during their working lives for somewhat lower (but not zero) benefits if they end up as high earners when their working lives are over.  What you describe would be a reasonable complaint from current retirees, but not in a phased-in system. 

&quot; In that case, people are not paying a contribution to fund their benefits&quot;

To some extent they surely are because:
 a) Nobody get zero who pays in - unless you die young of course.

b)  There is little guarantee that any particular person will be a high earner over the course of their working life as markets change and old skill become obsolete.

So you have a safety net program rather than one that overtaxes in order to overspend on people who don&#039;t actually need the money.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kate, future retirees would not have &#8220;paid all their working lives for the benefit.&#8221;  They would have exchanged paying lower taxes during their working lives for somewhat lower (but not zero) benefits if they end up as high earners when their working lives are over.  What you describe would be a reasonable complaint from current retirees, but not in a phased-in system. </p>
<p>&#8221; In that case, people are not paying a contribution to fund their benefits&#8221;</p>
<p>To some extent they surely are because:<br />
 a) Nobody get zero who pays in &#8211; unless you die young of course.</p>
<p>b)  There is little guarantee that any particular person will be a high earner over the course of their working life as markets change and old skill become obsolete.</p>
<p>So you have a safety net program rather than one that overtaxes in order to overspend on people who don&#8217;t actually need the money.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Pitrone</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/comment-page-1/#comment-33920</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Pitrone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10910#comment-33920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They paid all their working lives for the benefit.  As I said, what you are proposing is converting an entitlement program to a welfare program.  In that case, people are not paying a contribution to fund their benefits, but taxes to redistribute their proceeds of their productive lives.  I am not seeing in other people&#039;s arguments that this will happen to another generation, but that this must happen very soon, because there are too many draws on the current entitlement programs.  Did you know that in the case of a man who was married more than once (for more than X years - 14, maybe?) and dies then not only his eligible widow, but his former wives can claim half of his survivor benefits?  I am not even sure he has to die, now that I think about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They paid all their working lives for the benefit.  As I said, what you are proposing is converting an entitlement program to a welfare program.  In that case, people are not paying a contribution to fund their benefits, but taxes to redistribute their proceeds of their productive lives.  I am not seeing in other people&#8217;s arguments that this will happen to another generation, but that this must happen very soon, because there are too many draws on the current entitlement programs.  Did you know that in the case of a man who was married more than once (for more than X years &#8211; 14, maybe?) and dies then not only his eligible widow, but his former wives can claim half of his survivor benefits?  I am not even sure he has to die, now that I think about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Spiliakos</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/comment-page-1/#comment-33899</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Spiliakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2013 01:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10910#comment-33899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kate, plans differ but two points:

1) Life time high earners wouldn&#039;t get nothing.  Even high earners have things go wrong for them sometimes so they would be entitled to some benefit as an emergency measure.  They would just get somewhat less than those with lower life time earnings.

2) I picture these reforms being phased-in for future retirees (some plans include faster phase-ins.)  This would offer people a deal.  You can either pay a lot more taxes during your working life (when you might or might not be a life time high earner based on a lot of factors), and retire to an unreformed system in a poorer America, or you can pay lower taxes during your working life and if you make a lot of money during your working years you will get a somewhat lower benefits when you retire.  

This of course not getting into the idea that most people who make it to retirement will draw more in benefits than they pay in etc. since it wouldn&#039;t effect current retirees.  I have sympathy for current retirees who reject that argument for three reasons:

1. They did plan their retirements around the current system.

2. They feel like they can&#039;t go back to work and support themselves so that any argument that protects their benefits will do.  Who was it that said that you can&#039;t convince somebody when their paycheck depends on their not being convinced?

3.  They are trying to maintain a sense of dignity in the face of arguments than make them feel like moochers when they only spent their lives following the rules.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kate, plans differ but two points:</p>
<p>1) Life time high earners wouldn&#8217;t get nothing.  Even high earners have things go wrong for them sometimes so they would be entitled to some benefit as an emergency measure.  They would just get somewhat less than those with lower life time earnings.</p>
<p>2) I picture these reforms being phased-in for future retirees (some plans include faster phase-ins.)  This would offer people a deal.  You can either pay a lot more taxes during your working life (when you might or might not be a life time high earner based on a lot of factors), and retire to an unreformed system in a poorer America, or you can pay lower taxes during your working life and if you make a lot of money during your working years you will get a somewhat lower benefits when you retire.  </p>
<p>This of course not getting into the idea that most people who make it to retirement will draw more in benefits than they pay in etc. since it wouldn&#8217;t effect current retirees.  I have sympathy for current retirees who reject that argument for three reasons:</p>
<p>1. They did plan their retirements around the current system.</p>
<p>2. They feel like they can&#8217;t go back to work and support themselves so that any argument that protects their benefits will do.  Who was it that said that you can&#8217;t convince somebody when their paycheck depends on their not being convinced?</p>
<p>3.  They are trying to maintain a sense of dignity in the face of arguments than make them feel like moochers when they only spent their lives following the rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Pitrone</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/comment-page-1/#comment-33890</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Pitrone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10910#comment-33890</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pete, isn&#039;t the problem with cutting off old-age benefits for high earners is that they paid for them?  Social Security and Medicaid are true entitlements, in that they are what what one paid for and is therefore entitled to as a right.  Much of what we term entitlements are welfare payments.  That Americans feel entitled to them is absurd in comparison.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, isn&#8217;t the problem with cutting off old-age benefits for high earners is that they paid for them?  Social Security and Medicaid are true entitlements, in that they are what what one paid for and is therefore entitled to as a right.  Much of what we term entitlements are welfare payments.  That Americans feel entitled to them is absurd in comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/comment-page-1/#comment-33862</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2013 02:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10910#comment-33862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A prime example of the idiocy of the DC GOP is their prioritization of opposition to the new cabinet appointees.  Sure, they&#039;ve made it quite clear that the new Defense Secretary is a subliterate moron, but as far as the public knows, it&#039;s just the GOP being mad at someone in their party who opposed the Iraq War.  Yeah, it&#039;s important to oppose a Jew-hating buffoon for a major government position, but this fight was never going to be victorious, and is only reinforcing hugely negative party baggage.

Far better would be to focus all attention on the new Treasury Secretary, and make it clear that no one with such a resume based on pure cronyism and the Wall Street-DC axis will be tolerated for such a position.  Now THAT&#039;S a battle that might be winnable, and even if they didn&#039;t prevail, some points might be scored.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A prime example of the idiocy of the DC GOP is their prioritization of opposition to the new cabinet appointees.  Sure, they&#8217;ve made it quite clear that the new Defense Secretary is a subliterate moron, but as far as the public knows, it&#8217;s just the GOP being mad at someone in their party who opposed the Iraq War.  Yeah, it&#8217;s important to oppose a Jew-hating buffoon for a major government position, but this fight was never going to be victorious, and is only reinforcing hugely negative party baggage.</p>
<p>Far better would be to focus all attention on the new Treasury Secretary, and make it clear that no one with such a resume based on pure cronyism and the Wall Street-DC axis will be tolerated for such a position.  Now THAT&#8217;S a battle that might be winnable, and even if they didn&#8217;t prevail, some points might be scored.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/comment-page-1/#comment-33855</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2013 02:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10910#comment-33855</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[None of the boring proposals you mention come close to being enough.  Until and unless the GOP gets seriously, intelligently &quot;populist&quot; anti-crony-capitalism and is able to present why TARP and the whole TBTF notion flow naturally from the very worst sort of Big Government-Big Business incest, they aren&#039;t going to be able to attract any Dem voters.  You seem to have either missed this critical part of the linked essay, or to be massively underestimating its importance.  The Dems and the MSM have done too good a job painting the 2008 meltdown as the result of the &quot;unregulated free market&quot; (HA! times a million) and that we were &quot;saved&quot; by Obama&#039;s policies (I honestly don&#039;t know whether to put HA! times a billion here, or SOB! times a billion), and nothing you write even attempts to set the record straight.

The country-club GOP is massively implicated in all of this, of course.  Romney personified the worst possible image the GOP could have put forward.  Yeah, all the other candidates running against him were jokes, but man, oh man, was he a terrible, terrible, terrible candidate, as I said over and over last year.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None of the boring proposals you mention come close to being enough.  Until and unless the GOP gets seriously, intelligently &#8220;populist&#8221; anti-crony-capitalism and is able to present why TARP and the whole TBTF notion flow naturally from the very worst sort of Big Government-Big Business incest, they aren&#8217;t going to be able to attract any Dem voters.  You seem to have either missed this critical part of the linked essay, or to be massively underestimating its importance.  The Dems and the MSM have done too good a job painting the 2008 meltdown as the result of the &#8220;unregulated free market&#8221; (HA! times a million) and that we were &#8220;saved&#8221; by Obama&#8217;s policies (I honestly don&#8217;t know whether to put HA! times a billion here, or SOB! times a billion), and nothing you write even attempts to set the record straight.</p>
<p>The country-club GOP is massively implicated in all of this, of course.  Romney personified the worst possible image the GOP could have put forward.  Yeah, all the other candidates running against him were jokes, but man, oh man, was he a terrible, terrible, terrible candidate, as I said over and over last year.</p>
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		<title>By: A Big Country Part II: A Country Class Revolt For The Whole County &#124; CATHOLIC FEAST</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/2013/02/24/a-big-country-part-ii-a-country-class-revolt-for-the-whole-county/comment-page-1/#comment-33853</link>
		<dc:creator>A Big Country Part II: A Country Class Revolt For The Whole County &#124; CATHOLIC FEAST</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/postmodernconservative/?p=10910#comment-33853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Angelo Codevilla described the revolt of the Republican &#8220;country class&#8221; in which Goldwater won the Republican presidential nomination and Ronald Reagan eventually won the presidency. Codevilla traces the divisions within the Republican party to the New Deal where the Bob Taft wing opposed big government while the Rockefeller wing wanted Source: Postmodern Conservative&#160;&#160; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Angelo Codevilla described the revolt of the Republican &#8220;country class&#8221; in which Goldwater won the Republican presidential nomination and Ronald Reagan eventually won the presidency. Codevilla traces the divisions within the Republican party to the New Deal where the Bob Taft wing opposed big government while the Rockefeller wing wanted Source: Postmodern Conservative&nbsp;&nbsp; [...]</p>
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