I used to be a supporter of a Canadian style single payer health care plan for the USA. Then, I began spending time in Canadia and found out it doesn’t work well at all. This ad is effective, because from what I have seen, it is true.
The woman’s name is Shona Holmes. She is suing Canada for the cost of receiving health care here. She was not paid to do the ad except reimbursement of expenses.
July 22nd, 2009 | 2:58 pm
Not that I’m a huge fan of statistics, but why does it seem like most of the criticisms of Canada’s system are anecdotal? I can come up with plenty of damaging anecdotes about the USA system all by myself. Google “health insurance horror stories” if you want.
You had some interesting statistics about cancer survival in USA vs. Canada, but again that was about the quality of our health care, not our method of paying for it. Most of the research that leads to those cancer survival rates comes out of NIH and NCI, not MediCare.
I’ve known Canadians who were fine with their health system, including one who lived in Windsor and commuted to Detroit largely so he could use the Canadian health system. (Yeah, yeah, I know… Detroit.) Also, there are plenty of other systems besides Canada (Germany, France, Norway, etc). Why are you locked in on Canada? Just an easy target?
I’ve got to think that our 40-odd million uninsureds would rather have Canada’s “flawed” system than what they have now.
July 22nd, 2009 | 3:07 pm
Powerful, Weseley.
July 22nd, 2009 | 3:16 pm
It’s hardly just anecdotal. It has been reported in the news about women flown to the USA while in labor to give birth, of the long delays for tests, of people who can afford it flying in droves to the USA for treatment, of Canadians by the millions unable to get their own doctor even though they are guaranteed care. I began to change my mind on this when the Globe and Mail ran a front page story of 900,000 Ontarians unable to get their own doctor. I pointed out our better cancer treatment statistics.
Indeed, the political argument in Canada is to introduce free market reforms.
July 22nd, 2009 | 3:30 pm
Oh, come on Wesley. Let’s have some objectivity here, instead of shilling for an organization like PatientsUnitedNow. The following excerpt is provided for those unfamiliar with this so-called “grassroots” organization:
“Now, operating under the name Patients United Now, Americans for Prosperity — which is mostly funded by large multinational corporations — is masquerading as an organic grassroots movement outraged over the Presidents health care proposals.
“After orchestrating and funding the so-called Tea Parties movement, Americans for Prosperity — a nationwide front group founded and funded by the right-wing polluter Koch Industries — is launching an ad campaign characterizing President Obama’s effort to reform the health care system as a government take-over that will ration care and care and deny treatments.
“Americans for Prosperity is notorious for its fake grassroots efforts, funneling millions of dollars into conservative campaigns designed to undermine Democratic initiatives. As Lee Fang put it, ‘AFP is a professional AstroTurf machine’:
- Hosted ‘Drill Baby, Drill’ rallies around the country.
- Financed Joe the Plumber’s tour against the Employees’ Free Choice Act and other anti-EFCA rallies.
- Started NoStimulus.com, ‘a grassroots website that we hope will be a focal point for the widespread frustration ordinary Americans feel at the runaway government growth that we see during good economic times and bad.’ ”
Anyone with the stomach to read the entire article from which this was excerpted can do so by visiting: http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/05/27/pun /
July 22nd, 2009 | 4:39 pm
Wesley,
I don’t think that Paddraig’s comments and questions were fairly answered. I am not saying that what you replied with is not true but that it sidetracks what the comments were. I live here in the U.S. and am one of the fortunate ones to have pretty good insurance and that is only because I work for a county in the state of Ohio. If I worked for a private company I would fair much worse. My brother in law has a child with asthma and can not afford to buy the medicine his son needs and since he has his own business they can only afford catastrophic insurance which probably cost more than $400 a month, leaving little left over for medicine. Also they make too much for any kind of assistance but not enough to pay out of pocket for what they need. This would never happen in Sweden, where I lived for 4 and a half years. I have never heard one negative story about the health care system there. Also the treatment of people with developmental and/or physical disabilities is light years ahead of what we have here. I find this significant! since I work with this population here in the U.S. and my wife worked in this Field in Sweden. I have first hand experience about what I am talking about here and this is not something that I assume or read in an article. I could give many examples of my experiences if need be. I am not sure if you are arguing that the health care sytem works here, because in my opinion it does not, although it does personally work for me. But I try and think outside of what is best for myself alone. I would like to hear what you would propose doing to make the system work better for everyone if not socializing it. I am yet to hear of any practical solutions that would work on a large scale. I am open. Anyway I do like the work that you are doing and enjoyed the pod cast that was on Ancient Faith Radio a while back. Thanks, Stephen
July 22nd, 2009 | 10:36 pm
I live in rural Canada,and things are bad here. I recently moved to a new area, and cannot get a primary care doctor because there are none in this area taking new patients. When you call and ask, they just tell you to go to the ER- and our ER has turned into a walk in clinic which a) costs way too much and b) takes away from those who truly need ER care
The area I live in closed its maternity unit at the hospital- women who want to give birth now have to travel an hour away. The government promised they’d have a new maternity doctor right away, but its been 6 months, with no doctor in sight.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/story_print.html?id=1774029&sponsor=
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/07/09/calgary-brooks-pregnant-mothers.html
I’m not saying the American system is perfect, but you certainly don’t want to move to Canadian style healthcare.
I know there are American’s that don’t have health insurance, but at least you have the option to buy it- the only good thing about Canada is that its equal- rich or poor you don’t get treatment fast at a Canadian facility.
July 23rd, 2009 | 10:52 am
Nobody in our Congress or our President is proposing single-payer. Nobody is trying to get rid of any current health providers.
We could end up with what amounts to single-payer for the currently uninsured. I’d like to see that. “May I see your insurance info?” “I don’t have any.” “Fine, we’ll treat you as we would a MedicAid patient.” Not great, but better than nothing, which is what they have now.
Sarah, not that it helps you, but there are similar difficulties here in America in rural areas and (much worse) in inner cities. Don’t break your leg in East St. Louis.
Also, another Canadian once tried to explain to me that there were “tiers” or levels of health care, that he could pay extra and essentially get better treatment (aka “supplemental coverage”). Is this true in your experience?
July 23rd, 2009 | 11:43 am
Padraig,
The tiers thing is something that’s fought about all the time- most people consider tiers to be “american healthcare” and so its a gray area. In some major cities there are a few private healthcare facilities- but they do simple procedures- ie hip replacements,cateracts, MRI’s etc and you do have to pay for those- the public system doesn’t cover them at all and as far as I know you can’t get insurance coverage for those because the Canada Health Act doesn’t allow insurance for services covered by the public system- if you want to not wait for these procedures you pay the entire cost yourself.
You can buy insurance coverage for yourself and your family, but its only for things the public system doesn’t pay for- ie dental and vision care, prescriptions etc.
July 23rd, 2009 | 12:42 pm
I’m a Canadian now living in Southern Ontario, and I can state categorically, “Everyone’s got one of these horror stories.” e.g. a family friend was suffering blindingly painful headaches that were causing her to pass out. She had a six month wait for an MRI because her condition was not deemed ‘life threatening’. She did get in after six weeks. Why? Contacts, working the system, knowing the right people… her mother just happened to know someone of influence who did the family a favour. So, in our glorious single-payer system, it’s who you know in the health care bureaucracy.
In my own case, I am blessed with reasonably good health, and so, the system’s is ‘fine’. However, my family moved recently to Hamilton, Ontario — hardly the middle of nowhere, and we were months finding a doctor; and we “took” the first one available with no sense of whether he’s a quack or not (so far he’s been alright). God knows if we’d have a doctor now if we passed on this fellow. Previously, we lived up the Ottawa Valley and did not have a family physician for five and a half years. I had to drive my daughter 2 1/2 hours each way to Ottawa to see her pediatrician because we couldn’t get one where we were, and it was hardly the middle of nowhere — there is a major military base (CFB Petawawa) and Canada’s principal nuclear research facility (Chalk River) in the area.
Really, the U.S.’s evil private system is this country’s safety valve. The one reason I don’t want you to socialize your insurance scheme is that it will likely cripple Canada’s already screwed up system that also fails to deal with rising costs.
July 23rd, 2009 | 12:44 pm
Powerful, HW, powerful. Quote from an extremely far out leftist source to characterize a more right leaning group with which you disagree. Maybe YOU should bring some objectivity to your criticisms instead of repeatedly affirming your obvious partisanship.
July 23rd, 2009 | 2:42 pm
Well it looks like there are many people who are dissatisfied with the health care system in Canada but is this because it is socialized or because it is managed extremely poor? To me it does not matter what you call it as long as it is run properly and is able to treat all people effectively and efficiently regardless of their economic status.
July 23rd, 2009 | 3:23 pm
“but is this because it is socialized or because it is managed extremely poor?”
The two are one and the same.
July 23rd, 2009 | 4:42 pm
I was attempting to make the observation that whether or not the health care system is privatized or socialized may be secondary to how it is run and by whom. I have lived in both types of systems in two different countries and did not have very many negative experiences in either place, although I have seen much more arrogance and greed with doctors here. Sometimes I get the feeling that certain doctors offices have deals with other companies and products. For example a dentist recently tried to refer my daughter to another dentist- a pediatric dentist- for services that she did not need. Similar things keep happening so that it is hard not to take notice. Insurance companies are another issue.
July 23rd, 2009 | 9:28 pm
SafePres: Do you deny the background of the organization, or that they have an agenda? Yes or no?
July 23rd, 2009 | 11:38 pm
Everyone has an agenda, HW. What matters is whether or not what they say about this particular issue is true. In this commercial, they are telling the truth. You have an agenda, which is why you cited a far left source to refute this woman’s argument. Why should we give an organization with your agenda any more credence than one with another agenda? You can hack all day about agendas to distract people from the problem at hand, but that doesn’t solve the health care problems, and makes you look boorish and close minded.
July 24th, 2009 | 10:56 am
As a Canadian living in Toronto, I concur with the “it’s who you know” comments.
If a service (e.g., treatment for broken leg) is government authorized service then a doctor cannot charge privately for the treatment (illegal), but must work through the government payment scheme. Which led to the brilliant thinking a couple of decades ago by bureacrats: “costs to the system come from doctor’s billings, so let’s reduce the billings by reducing the number of doctors!”. So the government restricted enrollments for a number of years at Canadian medical schols. And, surprise, now we have a shortage of doctors. That’s the sort of brilliance one gets when the health care system is controlled (dictated to) by one organization and that single organization is the government.
It’s also not accurate to speak of our system as “insurance”, and better to speak of it as “single payer”. Authorized services (there is a government controlled list) are paid for by the government out of current revenues as provided for in that year’s provincial government budget. The federal government minimum standards, but the provinces pay for it and each province controls its own list of authorized services (“authorized” in the sense of the government will pay for it). We have a system of transfer payments whereby the federal government sends wads of federal tax dollars to provinces according to a negotiated scheme. Rich provinces get nothing (e.g. Alberta, and until recently Ontario) while “poor” provinces (e.g. Nova Scotia) get lots. Theoretically, it’s supposed to lead to more equivalent levels of services and development across the country and teh money is given essentially without strings attached so that provinces can use it on what they want, including health care.
The government also claws back doctors wages from billings to our health plan. If a doctor bills more than a certain amount in a year, he/she just won’t get paid.
If a health service is not on the list, then one has to pay for it privately, out of one’s pocket. So, for example, doctor’s notes to employers are not covered, drugs are not covered (unless you are in the hospital, or are a senior), plastic surgery is not covered, PET scans are covered only in certain limited situations, etc.
Private insurance is available for services not covered by the government plan, and so for those services we are in the same situation as Americans (lose your job and you are SOL).
One bright spot is our constitution. A Quebecois (person from Quebec) couldn’t get public health care quick enough and so brought a constitutional challenge to permit private care. He won.
regards,
John
July 24th, 2009 | 12:06 pm
Boorish and close-minded perhaps, but not stupid like ….
July 24th, 2009 | 4:49 pm
Obama. LOL
July 24th, 2009 | 4:50 pm
I don’t think Obama is stupid, but that must be who you were referring to, HW, since you couldn’t possibly be referring to me….
July 24th, 2009 | 5:50 pm
Here’s the latest survey of Canadians’ views on their health-care system:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/canadians-happy-with-primary-health-care-study-says/article1229169/
It includes the following: “Canadians – except those living in Nunavut – have excellent access to primary health care: 85 per cent of people aged 12 and older have a regular doctor, and two thirds have been seeing the same doctor for five years or more, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) study, released yesterday.”
“The study found that 95 per cent of Canadians with chronic health conditions had a regular place of care, either a family doctor, or community health centre.”
Also: “Dr. Johnston said she was heartened by the study’s many optimistic findings, including the relatively short wait times. Eighty-five per cent of adults requiring immediate care for a minor problem were seen within a day.”
July 25th, 2009 | 8:59 pm
[History Writer: Play nice. Thank you. SafePres. Give me a call when you make Harvard Law Review. [Content deleted]
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