Governed by a Ghost? Forbes Delves Into Obama's Mindset

[total issues]

Pastaneta used to be the bane of the ATOL forum, with crude ad hominems a plenty; to be fair, she seems to have toned down a bit here, and is posting some good stuff. Anyway, we French speakers have to stick together, given what Americans think of cheese eating surrender primates.

However her open racism is breathtaking in this day and age. Before emotionally rejecting it or asking Auerbach to censor it, let’s seriously consider the proposition that people of African descent are, on average, dimmer than other races. After all, it cannot be dismissed a priori. The only possible reasons I can think of are:

- Africans evolved earlier than other human races, and are thus more primitive
- Since the end of slavery, African Americans have done rather badly as a group compared to immigrants
- Alone of all the inhabited continents, except Australia, it has never produced a civilisation worthy of the name.

The first argument seems implausible. The differences between human races are skin deep, we can all interbreed, and more importantly the plasticity of the human brain means that culture is more important. Human beings evolved in the Ethiopian and Kenyan highlands and savannah, where the same hunting skills and need to survive leopards and hostile other tribes would have honed intelligence in exactly the same way as for hunter-gatherer ancestors in other continents (but not to pass modern IQ tests). It also simply does not gel with my personal experience of meeting lots of intelligent Africans, both within the continent and outside it : they needed their wits about them to survive the jungle that is Africa, the human jungle that is; the people were fine, the screwed up system and the hopeless kleptocratic so-called governments were the problem.

As for African-Americans, not to overdo the PC guilt but it is hardly fair to compare them to voluntary immigrants, especially those with a culture of education like Jews: the baleful legacy of slavery includes dysfunctional family structures, continued prejudice and lack of commitment to education. Compared to native Americans they have done rather well – yet the latter are genetically close to Chinese and Japanese, not to mention the builders of the Aztec and Inca civilisations. African immigrants like Uche do well, unlike native African-Americans.

The lack of a proper civilisation is the biggest argument. It is not entirely fair; there were kingdoms or more properly chiefdoms in West Africa with a high but still barbaric level: but Benin Bronzes aren’t Plato, Confucius or Deutoronomy, they are not even Technotitlan. Borrowing from Jared Diamond (who does not really do Africa) there is a simpler explanation: the hostile environment and lack of suitable crops/livestock. Africa is relentless, poor soil (the rainforest is lush, but not when cleared), crops from the Mediterranean will not grow, maize did not come in till the 16th century, and the tsetse fly limits where domesticated livestock can be grazed (that wealth of big game is a mark of pastoral failure, in every other continent they were exterminated long ago). Above all the bacteria, parasites and viruses: they co-evolved with humans in Africa, and are more numerous and hostile than anywhere else. Nearly all major disease vectors seem to have originated in Africa.

Now civilisation needs states bigger than chiefdoms, that is city states, kingdoms or empires –and these need armies of conquest. Disease was the bane of pre-modern armies, killing far more than the enemy did – in Africa, I submit that it was impossible. That is the main reason why Africa remained uncivilised, because large armies of conquest could not be assembled. After all, Roman armies could not even manage the more benign environment of north European forests – so my Anglo Saxon ancestors, and those of many others on this forum, were a lot less civilised in 500 AD than the average Congolese today. I doubt that they would have been much good at IQ tests, if they had been around.

[ellens]

"It is just a matter of time that you and the entourage from Tel Aviv or Jerusalem will be calling on Africa's doors for economic assistance and security guarantees. If I were you I will learn manners and learn to be polite because the future of Israel might very well depend on that."

Uche,

I for one hope that the Christian parts of Africa do develop, and partly because they would be the natural allies of Israel. Whether they will or not, nobody can predict. Right now, Ghana looks like the best prospect, if they can spend their modest oil bounty on useful development rather than wars and corruption.

I think people in Israel would be happy to have allies in Africa, especially as you point out, as the youthful and enthusiastic African Christian population could someday provide a counterforce to the decaying Arab/Islamic countries of North Africa and the Near East. I think there will be a lot of chaos in the Muslim world before things stabilize, and the developed countries do not have the manpower or the willpower to recruit armies and militias to do the necessary military intervention. All concerned may find well-trained African Christian militias to be the handiest allies, along with the Indian army, in providing outside interventionist forces, once the US army mostly withdraws.

[Pastaneta]

Pastaneta used to be the bane of the ATOL forum, with crude ad hominems a plenty; to be fair, she seems to have toned down a bit here, and is posting some good stuff. Anyway, we French speakers have to stick together, given what Americans think of cheese eating surrender primates.

However her open racism is breathtaking in this day and age. Before emotionally rejecting it or asking Auerbach to censor it, let’s seriously consider the proposition that people of African descent are, on average, dimmer than other races. After all, it cannot be dismissed a priori. The only possible reasons I can think of are:

I see that without any background in science you are trying to go against Dr Lahn's results. Which prove his point on the politicization of science.

I have seen it time and again. people don't want to accept scientific results because they are emotionally attached to the contrary. Well I couldn't care less about the PC police.

I accept evolution and I accept the fact that the brain and intelligence have a genetic component.

We have already seen in Nicolas Wade's book that the often said sentence that races are a sociological concept is false. In 95% of the cases, a geneticist can tell you the race of the person whose genes he is given.

Dr Lahn has found genes that determine brain capacity. If there is a link to intelligence, well you better accept the results.

As for African-Americans, not to overdo the PC guilt but it is hardly fair to compare them to voluntary immigrants, especially those with a culture of education like Jews:

Again you try to lie about the evidence. Dr Lahn has examined the genes in Africa, not in America or Australia. Good example of trying to build a straw man.

[hoosiernorm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG7U1QsUd1g

How the hell you do fix this?

[Pastaneta]

How the hell you do fix this?

It will fix itself... Nobody can "fix" it.

I wonder what would be the results in say China.. Or sub-Saharan Africa...

[Simple Minded]

Anyway, we French speakers have to stick together, given what Americans think of cheese eating surrender primates.

While not authorized to speak for all of America, not even black America, nor even white America, nor even smart America, I for one like most of the cheese eating surrender primates I have met. I like them even more that most of the cheese I have met during my brief visits to France.

As for African-Americans, not to overdo the PC guilt but it is hardly fair to compare them to voluntary immigrants, especially those with a culture of education like Jews: the baleful legacy of slavery includes dysfunctional family structures, continued prejudice and lack of commitment to education.

I am assuming that most agree that culture is something that is learned, not a product of genetics. The question remains what are the results of culture, both one's own and the outside cultures, and what are the results of perverse incentives?

The data I have seen on illegitmacy in the US, is that illegitmacy among blacks have been very comparable to illegitmacy among whites thruout US history. After the New Deal, illegitmacy in both demographic groups skyrocketed.

Was the increase in illegitmacy the result of perverse welfare incentives available to all, the result of the 60's free love culture, breakdown in the influence of religion, reduction in the concept of personal responsibility, or something else?

My guess is that if one tracked illegitmacy by region, rather than by race, the results would be much more apparent. I think the results would show small areas of high illegitmacy rates, and large areas of of normal illegitmacy.

I shall pass on all the applicable jokes regarding West Virginia and Arkansas at this time.

[Simple Minded]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG7U1QsUd1g

How the hell you do fix this?

Would be interesting to see all the data associated with this presentation.

My gues is ten minutes spent with the parents of these children would be enlightening.

[Michael]

Pastaneta used to be the bane of the ATOL forum, with crude ad hominems a plenty; to be fair, she seems to have toned down a bit here, and is posting some good stuff. Anyway, we French speakers have to stick together, given what Americans think of cheese eating surrender primates.

As a Scottish, anglophone, Catholic, I enjoy both your contributions enormously. I also know France well enough to appreciate the view that regards conversation as a competitive sport, something shared by the Scots

[total issues]

I see that without any background in science you are trying to go against Dr Lahn's results.

Well I have a degree in natural sciences as well as economics, but will let that pass. OK, let's look at some of Lahn's evidence.

Lahn's thesis:

Dr. Lahn’s researchers examined the DNA of 1,184 people around the world — though not in racially mixed areas like North America, Russia and Australia. They estimated that one undamaged variation, microcephalin haplogroup D (let us call it variation one, or V1) first appeared around 40,000 BC and has since spread to some 70 percent of humans. It is more common in Europe, Asia, South America and Latin America than in black Africa. At three percent, it is especially infrequent in Congo pygmies, whom black Africans commonly regard as inferior.

A second variant of the gene, abnormal spindle-like microcephaly-associatedhaplogroup D (let us call it V2), arrived more recently, around 6,000 BC, and has since spread to 30 percent of humans. It is most common in Europe and the Middle East, somewhat less common in Asia, and distinctly rare in black Africa.

Dr. Lahn and colleagues noted that the arrival of V1 coincided roughly with the first signs of human habitation and agriculture; V2 appeared about the time of the first cities and the development of written language. The Chicago team believes these new alleles gave rise to these important developments, and that their possessors reproduced quickly by occupying the new niches offered by agriculture and written language.

- the IQ gap of 15 points between American whites and blacks is well attested - for men. The gap is narrower for women, and black women generally do better than their men socially. There is no genetic explanation (there is no such gender difference in whites, or in Africa), but a clear social one : Afro-American society is matriarchal.
- there is clear evidence that lower status groups across the world score lower on IQ tests than higher status, even if the genetic inheritance is the same. This could be because the dimmer sink to the bottom, although there is a well supported "reversion to the mean" over generations. This however can be ruled out when groups do not intermarry. Interestingly, the IQ gap seems to be 10-15 points, similar to the US situation. It applies to Indian castes, although lower and upper castes will have one or both allelles; it applies to Catholics relative to Protestants in northern Ireland, but not to people of Irish descent in the US. Most interestingly, it applies to the Korean minority in Japan, where they are treated as a lower caste, while Koreans in Korea or the US score above average on IQ.
- most amusingly for this forum: I have always been bemused by "Polack" jokes in the US. Nobody in Europe considers Poles as particularly dim. A century ago a flood of Polish immigrants got that reputation, as new and lowly immigrants. A lot of them were Jewish. We are talking dim Ashkenazi Jews, for goodness sake: I doubt they score below average now.
- east Asians have only one of the two alleles, yet score higher than whites on IQ tests. They seem to have created civilisations perfectly well without the second allele.
- Australian aborigines seem to have one of the alleles, yet score rock bottom (average IQ 62)
- native Americans score closer to blacks than whites, yet are genetically close to east Asians
- the Flynn effect, well attested that IQs have been rising in the past two generations, by some 10-20 points compared fifty years ago. It is evident in all developed countries, including both blacks and whites in the US. There is clearly no genetic explanation. There are some clear social hypotheses: more mental stimulation (television, computer games) and the fact that a modicum of education is needed even for lowly jobs. It does not apply to poor countries: Indian average IQs are apparently around 80 on a standardised scale, though genetically Indians hardly differ from whites or Middle Easterners. Of course, it does not apply to Africa either.
- there is hardly any difference between American whites and blacks at early ages (5-7) but the gap appears later, especially with boys.

I could go on. It does not matter that Lahn is politically incorrect, but it does matter that he does sloppy science.

[Pastaneta]

the IQ gap of 15 points between American whites and blacks is well attested

American blacks are not good subject as the vast majority are mixed race.

So you seem to engage in sloppy science.

As I said, I would like more studies of this subject. I am convinced there is a genetic component to intelligence, and I believe that in maybe 30 years when all this PC correctness of Disney 2it's a small world" will pass, there will be more of them.

[Pastaneta]

Oh... And I don't buy the explanation of Africa backwardness as all the soil isn't poor.

[Simple Minded]

the IQ gap of 15 points between American whites and blacks is well attested

American blacks are not good subject as the vast majority are mixed race.

So you seem to engage in sloppy science.

As I said, I would like more studies of this subject. I am convinced there is a genetic component to intelligence, and I believe that in maybe 30 years when all this PC correctness of Disney 2it's a small world" will pass, there will be more of them.

Based on my own experience, I think the results of IQ tests are extremely questionable. Give me one day with anyone taking an IQ test, and I bet I can show them a few simple tricks of geometry, symmetry, and pattern recognition that will increase their IQ score by 15-20 points. Blows me away that society places value on these tests.

Much as I enjoy it when Pastaneta, Charleston, and Uche take off their kid gloves, I'm not sure Pastaneta made any points with the above statement. True enough that "blacks" in America are of mixed race, pretty sure the same is true for "whites" in America.

No doubt there are genetic differences between individuals and races, otherwise we would all be clones. But if the difference measured in whatever standard one chooses, between two individuals is X, IMO at most, 5-10% of X is genetic, and at least 50% of X is due to attitude, the adoption or avoidance of personal responsibility, parents, environment, technology, nutrition, bias on the part of the 'social scientists," past experience, etc. As for the remaining 40-45% of X, we are talking about individuals, so there are an infinite number of factors/variables to consider.

Due to the infinite number of factors/variables between individuals, IMO, all studies comparing groups are flawed from the start, and the conclusion of such studies are meaningless. Makes for great arguments, and political causes however.

Theodore Dalrymple’s book: Life at the Bottom, The Worldview that Makes the Underclass makes an excellent case that the self-destructiveness of an individual is the result of a self-defeating mindset and an antisocial attitude on the part of that individual, rather than a genetic trait shared by demographic groups. Nor a permanent condition imposed upon an individual by external forces.

However, this viewpoint does not play well among those who choose self-pity and inferiority as their sense of identity, nor as a rallying call to gain political power, $$$, or privilege.

My opinion is not based on my lack of expertise as a "social scientist," but simply years of watching people distort even hard uncorruptable mechanical data in an attempt to fit their needs.

Remember, man made global warming.......

[Simple Minded]

- most amusingly for this forum: I have always been bemused by "Polack" jokes in the US. Nobody in Europe considers Poles as particularly dim. A century ago a flood of Polish immigrants got that reputation, as new and lowly immigrants. A lot of them were Jewish. We are talking dim Ashkenazi Jews, for goodness sake: I doubt they score below average now.

IMO, A lot of ethnic jokes are regional in the US, depending upon the nationality of prevalent surnames in the area. Everybody loves to laugh at their own.

For example, French jokes in Maine and Louisiana, Italian and Irish and German jokes in upstate New York state, German jokes in Wisconsin, Nowegian and Swedish jokes in Minnesota, Jewish jokes in NYC and Long Island, Polish jokes in central Pennsylvania, redneck jokes below the Mason-Dixon line, Yankee jokes above it, etc.

So when traveling in the US, pick up a local phone book and skim it for nationality of surnames, then modify your jokes accordingly. Americans will love ya!

[CognitiveDistoibance]

... Polish jokes in central Pennsylvania, ...

Funny you should mention that...

I mostly grew up in central PA (Centre County, to be exact!) and such jokes were legion.

In Penn State University's main campus, there is "Pollock Road." It was (when I was there--my Dad worked on that campus) pronounced locally as "Paul - luck" and if anyone pronounces it otherwise, they were derided mercilessly of being of Polish extraction.

[Simple Minded]

... Polish jokes in central Pennsylvania, ...

Funny you should mention that...

I mostly grew up in central PA (Centre County, to be exact!) and such jokes were legion.

In Penn State University's main campus, there is "Pollock Road." It was (when I was there--my Dad worked on that campus) pronounced locally as "Paul - luck" and if anyone pronounces it otherwise, they were derided mercilessly of being of Polish extraction.

LOL.. In upstate NY, that person would have been refferred to as a Pennsylvania Pollack... not sure if that is better or worse than the garden variety.

After I moved to Virginia, I noticed the big difference between southern rednecks and northern rednecks, in the north it was taken as a slightly demeaning, but good humored comment, similar to numbskull, in the south, it was taken as a compliment and a sign of male bonding and pride.