Spengler on the Tea Parties

[Marcus]

CD,

Another possibility, check your area for a Farmer's Market and for the availability of locally-sponsored farm produce. Our daughter and son-in-law, who live in the Wasilla area, pay a local farmer something like $600 in the spring in return for weekly boxes of whatever's being harvested.

The farmer gets guaranteed income, the buyer gets locally-produced, organic vegetables, in-season. Quite the bargain for both, and a real start in the direction we need to go. You might also find locally produced meat and eggs. An area meat market here carries Alaskan grown, all natural elk, beef, and pork.

Good luck . . .

"We are going to have to gather up the fragments of knowledge and responsibilities that have been turned over to governments, corporations, and specialists, and put those fragments back together again in our own minds and in our families and household and neighborhoods."

— Wendell Berry

[Simple Minded]

This is nothing that a global depression and a world war won't fix.

I agree, unfortunately, it may be in the cards. Nothing like hard times to make one appreciate the simple aspects of life.

Fits in well with Neil Howe's theory of a four generation cycle (with one generation lasting approximately 20 years). Current events are similar to 80 years ago.... in many places.....

If true, the cycle length is approximately the same as a human lifespan, hmmmm.... lends it a little more credibility to my simple minded method of interpreting things....

[Michael]

CD

A poly tunnel can be a really good investment - Your own micro-climate and pretty well pest-proof, too, except for rodents, who can get through anything. The small ones are quite cheap

As you talk of irrigation (not a problem, here in the Waet of Scotland), it would pretty well eliminate evaporation.

[Michael]

. . The current deep recession caused by irresponsible hyperconsumption . .

. . Wherever I go, I hope to go as self-sufficient on food and energy as possible. What I don't need to spend on basic living expenses, I don't need to make. .

While probably most of us are guilty of irresponsible hyper-consumption, I'm not sure that's the root of the problem . . such indulgence is more likely the result of the problem. The real problem, at least as I see it, is the larceny in our hearts that makes inflation an expected and even welcome part of our social order. What home-buyer hasn't considered that, over time, his house payments will decrease as a result of inflation? Easy money in terms of inflation and usury are more the cause of our current condition, and I think we're all guilty. Over-indulgence is simply the result. Some obviously more guilty on that count than others.

Too, while simplification of one's lifestyle is a worthy goal, we all live at the end of a very long food chain, Self-sufficiency in any sense beyond growing a garden, doing with less, turning down the heat and such is pretty much an illusion. We're all in this boat together. Take it from one who has lived farther off the grid than most.
Part of the problem is that we are trying to make money do two things - act both as a medium of exchange and as a store of value. Are these compatible?

There are, it seems, two muses: the Muse of Inspiration, who gives us inarticulate visions and desires, and the Muse of Realization, who returns again and again to say "It is yet more difficult than you thought." This is the muse of form. It may be then that form serves us best when it works as an obstruction, to baffle us and deflect our intended course. It may be that when we no longer know what to do, we have come to our real work and when we no longer know which way to go, we have begun our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings.

— Wendell Berry

[Marcus]

Part of the problem is that we are trying to make money do two things - act both as a medium of exchange and as a store of value. Are these compatible?

It would seem to me that they are two sides of one coin—money has to be a store of value in order to be a medium of exchange.

[Simple Minded]

Part of the problem is that we are trying to make money do two things - act both as a medium of exchange and as a store of value. Are these compatible?

It would seem to me that they are two sides of one coin—money has to be a store of value in order to be a medium of exchange.

Very true Marcus!!! Money needs to be a medium of exchange, a store of value, and readily divisable.

[Simple Minded]

. . The current deep recession caused by irresponsible hyperconsumption . .

While probably most of us are guilty of irresponsible hyper-consumption, I'm not sure that's the root of the problem . . such indulgence is more likely the result of the problem. The real problem, at least as I see it, is the larceny in our hearts that makes inflation an expected and even welcome part of our social order. What home-buyer hasn't considered that, over time, his house payments will decrease as a result of inflation? Easy money in terms of inflation and usury are more the cause of our current condition, and I think we're all guilty. Over-indulgence is simply the result. Some obviously more guilty on that count than others.

Too, while simplification of one's lifestyle is a worthy goal, we all live at the end of a very long food chain, Self-sufficiency in any sense beyond growing a garden, doing with less, turning down the heat and such is pretty much an illusion. We're all in this boat together. Take it from one who has lived farther off the grid than most.
Part of the problem is that we are trying to make money do two things - act both as a medium of exchange and as a store of value. Are these compatible?

There are, it seems, two muses: the Muse of Inspiration, who gives us inarticulate visions and desires, and the Muse of Realization, who returns again and again to say "It is yet more difficult than you thought." This is the muse of form. It may be then that form serves us best when it works as an obstruction, to baffle us and deflect our intended course. It may be that when we no longer know what to do, we have come to our real work and when we no longer know which way to go, we have begun our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. LOVE IT!!!-SM The impeded stream is the one that sings.

— Wendell Berry

Fascinating to see how these threads evolve. Great points one and all. CD, if I may use one of your phrases, in response to Marcus’ comments on cause and effect. Unwarranted optimism is the cause (optimism and pessimism are the exact terms used for the primary psychology causes of human behavior in Elliott Wave Theory).

As someone once stated “Savings are unconsumed production.” Excessive optimism leads one to not save, and to consume more than one produces. In other words, to live beyond one’s means. Whether the one is an individual, a family, a business, a town, a state, or a nation, is only a matter of magnitude. The underlying psychological cause (willful? or unconscious? self-deception) is the same. Beware the over reaction, unwarranted pessimism which leads to panic and more herding.

As someone else once said “People are often right about the trend, but wrong at both ends!” That may be the best definition of human herding I have yet…… heard (sorry).

Not that I disagree with many of the assessments here, I do think very tough times are coming. Conditions will vary wildly from region to region. I would encourage CD to look at quality of community more than mere isolation or low property cost.

Does not take a psychologist to realize that areas of high population density, where there is large disparity of wealth, and where the have-nots have been encouraged/bribed to adopt the mentality of entitlement and dependency will be very volatile regions.

Perhaps Obama is currently the ultimate leading indicator……. look at the vitriolic attacks he has endured in the last few days from his (former?) friends and allies. Messiah to pariah in a few short years.......

He tossed more than a few friends/allies/Democrats under the bus in the last 3 years (I include the campaign), they now seem eager to return the favor.

As the old saying goes “Be nice to the people you screw on the way up the ladder, cause you’re going to meet the same people on the way back down.”

More than a few people saw this inevitable reaction coming, I wonder if Obama himself saw it coming?

[Marcus]

A couple books:

The Roots of Inflation by R. J. Rushdoony

The Roots of Inflation by R.J. Rushdoony, published by Ross House Books, 96 pages (1982). Recently republished as Larceny of the Heart by R.J. Rushdoony, Ross House Books, 144 pages with Index.

I first read this book in 1997. It's a wonderful treatise on the core issue in economics: Thou shalt not covet. It is our lust for our neighbour's goods and lifestyle that leads us to devise schemes whereby we can obtain more today with the promise to pay tomorrow. Since it is, in fact, paying for goods today with money that doesn't yet exist, the cost of the good has been deferred while the relative value of your money has decreased. This is inflation.

Sure, governments create it as they devalue our money supply. But what kind of government would do such a thing? One that we elected. God created every thing out of nothing, and now, in his quest to be as God, man makes money the same way.

The root of inflation is the larceny in our own hearts. We need to stop looking for places to fix the blame. We are the cause of our own economic demise.

Usury, destroyer of nations by S. C. Mooney

Reader Review

This is one of the most thought-provoking books any Christian who takes the Bible seriously as a guide to all of life can read on the subject of interest-taking or usury. Gary North has interacted with this book somewhat and rejects the author's thesis, which I think can be summarized as "interest-taking (i.e., usury) is only to be used as a means of subjugating the borrower, and thus must be rejected by Christians in their dealings with other Christians." I put that in quotation marks but it is NOT a direct quote from the book, which I don't have in my possession at the moment, and my apologies to the author if I have not summarized his thinking fairly, but in any case that's at least close to what his position is. Many Bible-believing Christians take the position that the biblical prohibition is actually only against the taking of interest on CHARITABLE loans, but the taking of interest on business loans is legitimate, even if both parties are Christians. Mooney looks at the Bible and concludes that the Bible in fact denies the legitimacy of charging interest to fellow believers under any circumstances.

(And furthermore he seems to apply this concept to rent, as well, although that aspect is not dealt with extensively in this book.)

In modern society, these are very hard words to hear, and I have really struggled with (or perhaps against) the book's thesis. However, the more I keep coming back to this in my mind, the harder I am finding it to continue rejecting the author's conclusions. A great deal of the argument on both sides comes down to how Jesus' parable of the talents is to be understood. Is that parable affirming the legitimacy of taking interest, or denying it? For a long time I thought that the parable was affirming the legitimacy of taking interest, but after considering the author's arguments, I am inclined to think he is right -- the parable is rejecting the legitimacy of interest-taking. Of course, if one assumes that it all came from one Author, the parable cannot be considered in isolation and needs to be considered together with everything else in the Bible.

(Although it is more or less outside the scope of this book, I am LESS convinced that the same prohibition applies by logical extension to rent. However, at least concerning the charging of interest on money-lending, the author's arguments deserve a serious hearing among all Bible-believing Christians.)

Part of the reason I came around to being more sympathetic to the author's views is my gradual development of appreciation for the fact that in the modern world, MONEY IS DEBT. (Do a Google search on the phrase "Money as Debt" to find a short film by Paul Grignon that explains this in an easy-to-understand manner. That film's proposals for a solution are in error, but its explanation of what is wrong with the modern monetary system is very good.) The world is a closed system, and as all money is created by bankers from debt -- meaning it accrues interest -- the only way to pay off the principal and the interest in entirely is to create more money. But the creation of more money necessarily means the creation of more interest-bearing debt, and the vicious cycle never ends. As time goes by, the insane "logic" of this approach moves inexorably toward the totally absurd conclusion that eventually, ownership of the entire world must be transferred to the bankers. Now the world is a closed system but it is also a very large system -- large and still immature. So it takes a long time (many generations) for these implications to be fully worked out. But worked out they shall be, eventually. So when we see the absurdity and the evil of the ultimate conclusion -- that everyone in the world should be reduced to serfs working on the bankers' plantations, it makes it a lot easier to go back to the biblical text and see why God prohibits usury.

I am still not 100% certain as to whether I want to embrace Mooney's essential thesis, but I am strongly inclined to think he is probably correct. The question then arises, "Is it workable?" I think the answer to that is yes, it can be done. However, if this is what God is commanding at this point, obeying God in this matter would completely transform modern culture into something very different from what it is now. And perhaps that is exactly the point! This is "just one commandment" but it is one that would radically transform the modern world if it was obeyed (assuming, of course, that Mooney is correct). Christians must not shy away from careful consideration of this subject. It would NOT be adequate to obey God on everything else (not that we do so, of course) but then to fail to obey God on this one point. After all, as the Scripture tells us, the law of God is a unified whole and it is not possible to abrogate it at one point without abrogating the whole.

I'm very grateful to the author for this extremely thought-provoking work and I recommend it, and indeed all of his writings relevant to this topic, to Bible-believing Christians and to anyone else who wants to study what the Bible teaches on this subject. At the time of this writing, the book is no longer in print; however, unused copies may still be available and one way to find them may be to go to the various blogs where C.S. Mooney's writings are discussed and inquire with the blog author as to whether he knows where Mooney's books can be obtained.

For what it's worth, I work in the real estate securitization department of one of Japan's largest securities companies. (Believe me, I feel the irony every day.)

A final thought: Biblical "slavery," as opposed to the chattel slavery practiced in the Ante-Bellum South, was more like what we understand as "servitude." The Old Testament slave-holder owned property in the labor of his "slave" but did not own the slave's person. If the borrower is slave or servant to the lender, and if servitude consists of someone else owning property in one's labor, what then is debt except voluntary servitude?

But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master . . and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

—from Exodus 21

[CognitiveDistoibance]

CD

A poly tunnel can be a really good investment - Your own micro-climate and pretty well pest-proof, too, except for rodents, who can get through anything. The small ones are quite cheap

As you talk of irrigation (not a problem, here in the Waet of Scotland), it would pretty well eliminate evaporation.

Where I'm thinking of doing this is directly beside my house, the southern exposure. Slightly visible from the road, and would be more so if I did the poly tunnel thing--probably in a bad way . If my pilot garden goes well enough however, I would seriously consider putting a greenhouse enclosure attached to the house that would not detract from the general appearance of the neighborhood.

We get plenty of rain here overall, but its often boom or bust. Extended, seemingly random dry spells occur during the summer. When that happens, the city slaps on water use restrictions--just when you need it most.

Part of the problem is that we are trying to make money do two things - act both as a medium of exchange and as a store of value. Are these compatible?

It would seem to me that they are two sides of one coin—money has to be a store of value in order to be a medium of exchange.

I tend to think they are different. Take a hyper-inflationary period for example, where people want to be paid twice a day because of the rapidly diminishing value of the money. In any given short period of exchange, the money does function as a medium of exchange, but it hardly functions as a store of value. Under that scenario the store of value is the hard assets being bought and sold.

Not that I disagree with many of the assessments here, I do think very tough times are coming. Conditions will vary wildly from region to region. I would encourage CD to look at quality of community more than mere isolation or low property cost.

Does not take a psychologist to realize that areas of high population density, where there is large disparity of wealth, and where the have-nots have been encouraged/bribed to adopt the mentality of entitlement and dependency will be very volatile regions.

True enough on both points. All else equal, however, the more rural the folk, the more self-sufficient and conservative. (Perhaps even Tea-Partiers? ) I mean, if things get tough, and you could choose to live around tea partiers or nanny staters, it isn't a particularly difficult choice. But I've spent enough time growing up in rural PA to know that rural != panacea.

Just for fun, this is pretty cool. Poultry, eggs, fish and veggies, all home grown.

[Marcus]

. . money has to be a store of value in order to be a medium of exchange.

I tend to think they are different. Take a hyper-inflationary period for example, where people want to be paid twice a day because of the rapidly diminishing value of the money. In any given short period of exchange, the money does function as a medium of exchange, but it hardly functions as a store of value. Under that scenario the store of value is the hard assets being bought and sold.

As soon as whatever a social order is using as "money" loses its ability to reasonably predestine the future as a store of value, it ceases to be "money," the social order is increasingly reduced to barter, and something else is used as a "store of value" but with decreased ability to serve as a medium of exchange.

[Marcus]

The problem is, people who behave responsibly get dragged down by the ones who behaved irresponsibly. The current deep recession caused by irresponsible hyperconsumption perhaps is a "punishment that fits the crime" (another Gilbert and Sullivan ditty) but it seems to me, the investment bankers and mortgage brokers who engineered this mess still laugh all the way to the bank.

Somewhere, in a galaxy far, far away, I just read this:

Notion Obama had or has anything to do with economy is rubbish ..

American presidents have no power influencing American economy ..

Biggest power American Presidents have is nominating supreme court judges ..

Neither Bush nor Clinton destroyed American economy .. American people themselves believing in Santa Claus did it .. Santa Claus was the main culprit .

So true . . .

[charleston]

Notion Obama had or has anything to do with economy is rubbish ..

American presidents have no power influencing American economy ..

Biggest power American Presidents have is nominating supreme court judges ..

Neither Bush nor Clinton destroyed American economy .. American people themselves believing in Santa Claus did it .. Santa Claus was the main culprit .

So true . . .

The Dems, especially Barney Franks and Chris Dodd, convinced people who could not afford home ownership, that it was their RIGHT to own a house, and banks were forced to extend credit to people who could not afford credit.

People were manipulated -promised the golden fleece and what they got was repossession when the bubble broke.

[rhapsody]

http://fora.tv/2010/02/22/Joseph_Stiglitz_Freefall#fullprogram

I think Stiglitz nails it all.

[CognitiveDistoibance]

http://fora.tv/2010/02/22/Joseph_Stiglitz_Freefall#fullprogram

I think Stiglitz nails it all.

Sorry, I couldn't endure through the first part of the smug intro...

[Simple Minded]

Not that I disagree with many of the assessments here, I do think very tough times are coming. Conditions will vary wildly from region to region. I would encourage CD to look at quality of community more than mere isolation or low property cost.

Does not take a psychologist to realize that areas of high population density, where there is large disparity of wealth, and where the have-nots have been encouraged/bribed to adopt the mentality of entitlement and dependency will be very volatile regions.

True enough on both points. All else equal, however, the more rural the folk, the more self-sufficient and conservative. (Perhaps even Tea-Partiers? ) I mean, if things get tough, and you could choose to live around tea partiers or nanny staters, it isn't a particularly difficult choice. But I've spent enough time growing up in rural PA to know that rural != panacea.

Just for fun, this is pretty cool. Poultry, eggs, fish and veggies, all home grown.

hey Bro, the point I was trying to make was that unless you have the right kind of neighbors, you will probably be better off without a garden that is visable, but not secure.

Do you really want the hungary scavengers (both two legged and four) to know that you have food?
Are you willing and able to stand armed guard 24/7 for the last few weeks while your crops ripen? A dog will keep the four leggers at bay. Just don't plant any hamburgers...

Granted it is a long way from gardening for recreation and improving the quality of the food you eat.... and a Mad Max scenario. When the Mad Max era gets here, I'd rather have canned food, MRE's, and freezed dried food stored out of sight. As Marcus pointed out, at that point, goods, services and bartering will be the rule of the day.

Who knows, maybe once we are past the bling obsession phase, we might find we are more civilized than we now know.

Assuming one can net $10 an hour from working, $500 of canned goods, or MRE's compares pretty well with what 50 hours of labor would get you from a garden....don't forget the additonal labor & cost of canning/freezing.

In fact, I would not be surprised if money came into existance because it was easier to store than food.....

We had a garden well over a quarter acre (50' x 300') when I was a youngun, it still provided at best 1/2 of our suppers, less of our lunches, and almost none of our breakfasts. Since we did not can much, it was of course seasonal. But it did give our father a venue to channel the excess energy of his sons into something more productive than what we would have chosen to do on our own........