Get out of Muni Bond Funds Now

[Marcus]

I'm not saying it would be a good outcome, its a terrible outcome, but the system is composed of entirely too much debt and the only thing that is being done the adding of more debt to the system. The more we walk on our current path the more we kick the can down the road the more likely is the outcome I suggested. The only way to circumvent that path is by digging deeply into old age pensions and medical care as well as military expenditures. The amount of debt racked up leaves us in a position where if we keep the pensions, we lose the currency--lose the pensions, keep the currency. We can either do this smart or we can do this ugly. Either way there will need to be a means of restoring confidence to the currency. Gold or some commodity basket will have to be the answer because it can't be printed at will.

Ehud,

I'm not contesting your estimation of the problem, and any rational solution at this point would be painful, but it must be seen and understood as painful across the board.

That said, recall:

"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities."

—Winston Churchill

[Ehud]

Marcus,

My calculus is based upon what will be the most politically expedient method for taking care of the problem. My guess is that politicians of either stripe will not have the balls to take this kind of proposal to the American people. If the Republicans did they would be savaged by Democrats saying that they want grandma to eat dog food. Instead, what you'll see is the Fed continuing to buy US Treasuries to fund expanding deficits until the world finally has enough. My guess is that the Social Security checks will keep coming in the form of confetti.

I have utterly no faith in our political system, nor is the American people's ability to accept sacrifice. I sacrificed 20% of my life to the US military after we were attacked while the country went shopping and the old people demanded free prescription drugs. The veterans of WWII came back and were set up with a GI bill and the world moved to give them opportunity. I fully expect my veterans benefits to be repealed like most other government liabilities and the elites like the gentlemen who talked above about the military being the 'lumpenproletariat' look at people like me as being part of the problem.

I don't understand where my country has gone.

I'm not saying it would be a good outcome, its a terrible outcome, but the system is composed of entirely too much debt and the only thing that is being done the adding of more debt to the system. The more we walk on our current path the more we kick the can down the road the more likely is the outcome I suggested. The only way to circumvent that path is by digging deeply into old age pensions and medical care as well as military expenditures. The amount of debt racked up leaves us in a position where if we keep the pensions, we lose the currency--lose the pensions, keep the currency. We can either do this smart or we can do this ugly. Either way there will need to be a means of restoring confidence to the currency. Gold or some commodity basket will have to be the answer because it can't be printed at will.

Ehud,

I'm not contesting your estimation of the problem, and any rational solution at this point would be painful, but it must be seen and understood as painful across the board.

That said, recall:

"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities."

—Winston Churchill

[Marcus]

Marcus,

My calculus is based upon what will be the most politically expedient method for taking care of the problem. My guess is that politicians of either stripe will not have the balls to take this kind of proposal to the American people. If the Republicans did they would be savaged by Democrats saying that they want grandma to eat dog food. Instead, what you'll see is the Fed continuing to buy US Treasuries to fund expanding deficits until the world finally has enough. My guess is that the Social Security checks will keep coming in the form of confetti.

I have utterly no faith in our political system, nor is the American people's ability to accept sacrifice. I sacrificed 20% of my life to the US military after we were attacked while the country went shopping and the old people demanded free prescription drugs. The veterans of WWII came back and were set up with a GI bill and the world moved to give them opportunity. I fully expect my veterans benefits to be repealed like most other government liabilities and the elites like the gentlemen who talked above about the military being the 'lumpenproletariat' look at people like me as being part of the problem.

I don't understand where my country has gone.

Nothing to disagree with there, Ehud, The country I was born into is gone.

[Simple Minded]

Marcus,

My calculus is based upon what will be the most politically expedient method for taking care of the problem. My guess is that politicians of either stripe will not have the balls to take this kind of proposal to the American people. If the Republicans did they would be savaged by Democrats saying that they want grandma to eat dog food. Instead, what you'll see is the Fed continuing to buy US Treasuries to fund expanding deficits until the world finally has enough. My guess is that the Social Security checks will keep coming in the form of confetti.

I have utterly no faith in our political system, nor is the American people's ability to accept sacrifice. I sacrificed 20% of my life to the US military after we were attacked while the country went shopping and the old people demanded free prescription drugs. The veterans of WWII came back and were set up with a GI bill and the world moved to give them opportunity. I fully expect my veterans benefits to be repealed like most other government liabilities and the elites like the gentlemen who talked above about the military being the 'lumpenproletariat' look at people like me as being part of the problem.

I don't understand where my country has gone.

Nothing to disagree with there, Ehud, The country I was born into is gone.

I'm not sure how old you two "old farts" are, but I am 51, my wife is 46, and we often say to people that we were raised on another planet.

I know one eventually reaches an age where "the past is a better country," but I thought that might be a couple more decades in the future.

For no better reason than my life long interest in linking effects to causes, I have been reading about how events unfold for more than 30 years. So, I can not say that anything that many things that have happened over the last 15 years have been much of a surprise.

Human nature seems pretty straightforward, but since a human lifespan is so short, timing events to within a few years is crucial. The bad news is human nature is not better, but at least it is consistent.

Neil Howe and Robert Prechter both seem to have pretty accurate reads on how human nature effects change.

[Ehud]

SM,

I have enjoyed Howe's books and I have only recently begun to engage Robert Prechter's work. Though I must say that I disagree with Prechter's view on gold. He views it as just another commodity whereas I view it as the core monetary asset that is reestablishing itself after a relatively short 40 year hiatus. The world is looking for an objective measure of value that paper currencies can no longer provide.

I should say that I'm not all doom and gloom. I think America has a bright future. I just think we will be going through some very rough spots. After going to Iraq I am not looking forward to seeing the worst in human nature again.

Marcus,

My calculus is based upon what will be the most politically expedient method for taking care of the problem. My guess is that politicians of either stripe will not have the balls to take this kind of proposal to the American people. If the Republicans did they would be savaged by Democrats saying that they want grandma to eat dog food. Instead, what you'll see is the Fed continuing to buy US Treasuries to fund expanding deficits until the world finally has enough. My guess is that the Social Security checks will keep coming in the form of confetti.

I have utterly no faith in our political system, nor is the American people's ability to accept sacrifice. I sacrificed 20% of my life to the US military after we were attacked while the country went shopping and the old people demanded free prescription drugs. The veterans of WWII came back and were set up with a GI bill and the world moved to give them opportunity. I fully expect my veterans benefits to be repealed like most other government liabilities and the elites like the gentlemen who talked above about the military being the 'lumpenproletariat' look at people like me as being part of the problem.

I don't understand where my country has gone.

Nothing to disagree with there, Ehud, The country I was born into is gone.

I'm not sure how old you two "old farts" are, but I am 51, my wife is 46, and we often say to people that we were raised on another planet.

I know one eventually reaches an age where "the past is a better country," but I thought that might be a couple more decades in the future.

For no better reason than my life long interest in linking effects to causes, I have been reading about how events unfold for more than 30 years. So, I can not say that anything that many things that have happened over the last 15 years have been much of a surprise.

Human nature seems pretty straightforward, but since a human lifespan is so short, timing events to within a few years is crucial. The bad news is human nature is not better, but at least it is consistent.

Neil Howe and Robert Prechter both seem to have pretty accurate reads on how human nature effects change.

[Marcus]

I'm not sure how old you two "old farts" are, but I am 51, my wife is 46, . .

I'm 70, SM, and my wife is 66.

[Ehud]

I'm afraid I'm only 36.

Marcus,

My calculus is based upon what will be the most politically expedient method for taking care of the problem. My guess is that politicians of either stripe will not have the balls to take this kind of proposal to the American people. If the Republicans did they would be savaged by Democrats saying that they want grandma to eat dog food. Instead, what you'll see is the Fed continuing to buy US Treasuries to fund expanding deficits until the world finally has enough. My guess is that the Social Security checks will keep coming in the form of confetti.

I have utterly no faith in our political system, nor is the American people's ability to accept sacrifice. I sacrificed 20% of my life to the US military after we were attacked while the country went shopping and the old people demanded free prescription drugs. The veterans of WWII came back and were set up with a GI bill and the world moved to give them opportunity. I fully expect my veterans benefits to be repealed like most other government liabilities and the elites like the gentlemen who talked above about the military being the 'lumpenproletariat' look at people like me as being part of the problem.

I don't understand where my country has gone.

Nothing to disagree with there, Ehud, The country I was born into is gone.

I'm not sure how old you two "old farts" are, but I am 51, my wife is 46, and we often say to people that we were raised on another planet.

I know one eventually reaches an age where "the past is a better country," but I thought that might be a couple more decades in the future.

For no better reason than my life long interest in linking effects to causes, I have been reading about how events unfold for more than 30 years. So, I can not say that anything that many things that have happened over the last 15 years have been much of a surprise.

Human nature seems pretty straightforward, but since a human lifespan is so short, timing events to within a few years is crucial. The bad news is human nature is not better, but at least it is consistent.

Neil Howe and Robert Prechter both seem to have pretty accurate reads on how human nature effects change.

[Michael]

Marcus,

I fully expect my veterans benefits to be repealed like most other government liabilities and the elites like the gentlemen who talked above about the military being the 'lumpenproletariat' look at people like me as being part of the problem.

I don't understand where my country has gone.

On the contrary, as I tried to explain, the military could be part of the solution, if politicians had the vigour and self-confidence to use them.

If the US had a citizen army, raised by universal conscription, for one or two year's service, the critical mass of the army would consist of "workers in uniform," proleterians with a strong sense of solidarity and class-consciousness, forged by organized labour unions in their former work-places &c, who would see any breakdown of public order as the prelude to shooting their officers, establishing soldiers and workers' councils, seizing the means of production, distribution and exchange, liquidating the bougeoisie &c - Everyone knows the scenario.

The Lumpen Proleteriat, by definition has no class-consciousness, no political organization and no sense of workers' solidarity. When they bcome professional soldiers, their loyalty is to their immediate comrades, their commanders and the flag, under which they serve, pretty well in that order. One can see, at once, that, properly led, they would readily support a Party of Order and would fire on command on looters, saboteurs and rioters. They would never see disorder as a political opportunity for the working class, or identify themselves with it. Both Napoléon I and Napoléon III realised this, which is why they allowed the system of substitution, where conscripts could avoid service, by finding someone else to take their place, thus producing, in effect, a professional army. That is why the police, too, are invariably recruited from this class.

In this, the lumpen proleteriat resembles my own class of peasant proprietors, who also lack political organization and are notoriously difficult to collectivise. One Scottish Labour party politician said, many years ago, that collectivising Scottish farmers would be like putting a saddle on a pig. My other job is as an advocate (trial lawyer and consultant), a bunch of people so independent-minded that we are not allowed to form partnerships, or work for a firm - every man for himself, living, quite literally, by his wits.

[Marcus]

The Lumpen Proleteriat, by definition has no class-consciousness, no political organization and no sense of workers' solidarity. As professional soldiers, their loyalty is to their immediate comrades, their commanders and the flag, under which they serve, pretty well in that order. One can see, at once, that, properly led, they would readily support a Party of Order and would fire on command on looters, saboteurs and rioters. They would never see disorder as a political opportunity for the working class, or identify themselves with it. . .

Good point and, if true, pretty damn' scary. Be nice at this point to hear from any now in or recently discharged from our armed forces.

Would love to see this discussed over at Tinker's as well.

[Michael]

The Lumpen Proleteriat, by definition has no class-consciousness, no political organization and no sense of workers' solidarity. As professional soldiers, their loyalty is to their immediate comrades, their commanders and the flag, under which they serve, pretty well in that order. One can see, at once, that, properly led, they would readily support a Party of Order and would fire on command on looters, saboteurs and rioters. They would never see disorder as a political opportunity for the working class, or identify themselves with it. . .

Good point and, if true, pretty damn' scary. Be nice at this point to hear from any now in or recently discharged from our armed forces.

Would love to see this discussed over at Tinker's as well.

Interesting. I never thought of you, as one of the Revolutionary intelligensia.

I wouldn't worry though. No American government is going to declare a state of seige and suspend the Constitutional guarantees any time soon

[Marcus]

Interesting. I never thought of you, as one of the Revolutionary intelligensia.

I wouldn't worry though. No American government is going to declare a state of seige and suspend the Constitutional guarantees any time soon

What can I say, Michael . . I read Wendell Berry.

I'm going to cut-and-paste your comments above, without credit or source unless you wish otherwise, for discussion in another place. Very good point . . thank you.

Check your PM box.

[Simple Minded]

SM,

I have enjoyed Howe's books and I have only recently begun to engage Robert Prechter's work. Though I must say that I disagree with Prechter's view on gold. He views it as just another commodity whereas I view it as the core monetary asset that is reestablishing itself after a relatively short 40 year hiatus. The world is looking for an objective measure of value that paper currencies can no longer provide.

I find it very easy to agree with that view. The problem today is one of trust, not only between people and governments, but between governments, between corporations, etc. In a world of fiat currencies, a commodity that is not easily manufactured should function as a stable quantity and thus a store of value. Gold contracts may come back in vogue.

I like Prechter's view on human behavior en masse, in general, regarding financial matters, he is more questionable.

One my favorite quotes from Howe: "Successive generations tend to over-correct the excesses of previous generations."

I should say that I'm not all doom and gloom. I think America has a bright future. I just think we will be going through some very rough spots. After going to Iraq I am not looking forward to seeing the worst in human nature again.

I have confidence that after an extended period of tough times, the younger generations will become more sensible than many of the Baby Boomers & Gen Xers. Adversity tends to instill personal responsibility.

It thrills me to hear my Liberal friends (translate as statist), who are parents, describe with shock how conservative their teenagers are becoming. Ayn Rand is also becoming popular with high school students.

Thank you for your service to our country!!

[Michael]

Simple Minded

You are right, when you speak of a breakdown of trust, particularly with politicians and the political process, but no tinkering with the currency will heal that wound in the body politic.

What began in Argentina, with ¡Que Se Vayan Todos! [They must all go], is a spectre that haunts the ruling classes.

Now a petty bourgeoisie , economically insecure, disillusioned with parliamentary politics, but hating and fearing socialism, is the natural constituency for a Party of Order; the sort of people who formed the backbone of the Gaullist party in France. Tea Party, anyone? However – based, of course, on what the media tells us Europeans about America – I do not see anyone with the moral stature of a De Gaulle, from outside traditional politics, who could lead such a party. De Gaulle signed the death warrant of the Fourth Republic, by standing on the tribune of the Assembly and appealing for trust with his « Français, Française, aidez-moi » – with one eye firmly fixed on La grande muette [The Great Silent One – The army] which had begun to murmur in its sleep.

If what is needed is to dismantle the Welfare State and a bloated and pampered civil service, which may well be forced on all the Western Democracies, then this is something that cannot be done piecemeal; it would require the cooperation of a veritable army of bureaucrats, whose interest would demand that they frustrate the process. The government would face “a revolution of folded arms” from its own officials.

As for me, my Old Age Pension would not pay my farrier's bill, so I can view these things, with a certain detachment. If my sheep stop lambing, we are hit with a potato blight or the trees wither in the orchard, then I shall worry.

[CognitiveDistoibance]

...Now a petty bourgeoisie , economically insecure, disillusioned with parliamentary politics, but hating and fearing socialism, is the natural constituency for a Party of Order; the sort of people who formed the backbone of the Gaullist party in France. Tea Party, anyone? ...

"Tea Party, anyone?" well, let's check:

• "economically insecure" ... check.
• "disillusioned with parliamentary politics" ... check.
• "hating and fearing socialism" ... check.
  but...
• "the natural constituency for a Party of Order" ... uh... no.

At least in my view. I don't think most TP folk are insecure nor disillusioned enough to try to buy security and illusions with any governmental solution (socialism or Party of Order).

Insofar as I am exposed to it, the "Don't tread on me" flag captures the sentiment of the TP crowd. I don't see them falling all over themselves rallying to a Part of Order. They mainly want ... to be left alone.

That sentiment still runs deep in certain segments of the American populace. I am not aware of a comparable element in the European environs. If the context is Europe, what you say makes perfect sense. And it certainly applies to a swath of folk here in the U.S. (Parts of the GOP, IMHO.) Just not the bulk of the Tea Party.

[Michael]

...Now a petty bourgeoisie , economically insecure, disillusioned with parliamentary politics, but hating and fearing socialism, is the natural constituency for a Party of Order; the sort of people who formed the backbone of the Gaullist party in France. Tea Party, anyone? ...

"Tea Party, anyone?" well, let's check:

• "economically insecure" ... check.
• "disillusioned with parliamentary politics" ... check.
• "hating and fearing socialism" ... check.
  but...
• "the natural constituency for a Party of Order" ... uh... no.

At least in my view. I don't think most TP folk are insecure nor disillusioned enough to try to buy security and illusions with any governmental solution (socialism or Party of Order).

Insofar as I am exposed to it, the "Don't tread on me" flag captures the sentiment of the TP crowd. I don't see them falling all over themselves rallying to a Part of Order. They mainly want ... to be left alone.

That sentiment still runs deep in certain segments of the American populace. I am not aware of a comparable element in the European environs. If the context is Europe, what you say makes perfect sense. And it certainly applies to a swath of folk here in the U.S. (Parts of the GOP, IMHO.) Just not the bulk of the Tea Party.

Right enough, but my argument was predicated on a government making sweeping cuts in public welfare, a policy they would support, and a widepread breeakdoen of public order, especially in the inner cities, as a result. That is when I see the TP supporting "firm measures," all in the name of "ordered liberty," of course.

Remember, as I noted earlier on this thread, it was the closure of les ateliers nationaux [National Worshops - the equivalent of Welfare to Work] in 1848 that led to a workers' uprising.