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Spengler Forum at First Things • View topic - "Salvation is of the Jews"

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"Salvation is of the Jews"

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"Salvation is of the Jews"

Postby Spengler » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:37 am

"Salvation is of the Jews" on the Spengler Blog


by David Layman



...the sad thing is that you cannot be a Christian and take the Jews seriously at the same time. Or, if you can, it is a very very difficult thing to do… (Not Even the Rain, on Spengler's Forum)




The spiritual man is able to endure a duplication in himself; by his understanding he is able to hold fast to the fact that something is contrary to the understanding, and then will it nevertheless; he is able to to hold fast with the understanding to the fact that something is an offense, and yet to will it nevertheless; that humanly speaking, something makes him unhappy, and yet to will it, etc. Kierkegaard, Attack Upon "Christendom"



Being a Christian and simultaneously taking Jews seriously is indeed a very difficult thing to do. How can one be a Christian, summon all near and far to honor the Lordship of Jesus Christ, Jesus the Messiah, and even so affirm that Jews who have not yet recognized this Messiah, do so rightly? Why "endure the duplication," the contradiction?



On the late afternoon of June 10, 1967, an ordinary boy was cleaning out the family van (It was something like this one; take his word for it: '60s vans were not near as "cool" as today's vans.) Fields on the south and west stretched in the distance. Some miles beyond would have been the Great Dismal Swamp, reputedly the only place in America where one could hunt bear inside of city limits. It must have been warm, it was, after all, summer in the flat tidewater lands of Virginia.  Some of the details are equally hazy--was he listening to a "transistor radio"? He must have been, he must have heard it on the 4 o'clock newscast: The Israeli army had captured Jerusalem! (The records say it happened on June 7. Remember, this is pre-internet America. News took a while to travel.)



Why would an country goy kid, who had never known a Jew in his life (outside the pages of the Bible) be elated over the return of the Jewish people to their holy city? It would be twenty years before he knew about and understood the implications of the cry of hope that ends every Passover Seder, and says goodbye to the sukkah: L'shanah haba'ah b'Yerushalayim! ("Next year in Jerusalem!") What investment did he have?



Because the country lane led to a straight road, and down that road, in a small white Christian meetinghouse that he attended at least three times a week (every night during revival meetings or vacation Bible school), he had been taught that "salvation is of the Jews." The Jews were God's people, God's plans for his people had not been annulled through long years of wandering, and God was yet at work in this fallen world. The goy kid exalted because the events had shown that the preachers in that meetinghouse had not lied. Inside the mysteries of history was gestating a greater mystery: "Your redemption draweth nigh!"



Why do Christians need Jews to assure themselves of the veracity of the promises of salvation? We have almost 2000 years of Christian history. However, already in Kierkegaard's Denmark of 1850, the 1800 years were getting stale. In a society where everyone was a Christian, no one needed to  become a Christian, which, Kierkegaard pointed out, was precisely the necessary thing as a Christian. "Christendom has done away with Christianity," was his pointed warning. Yet that is not our current situation. Christendom itself has vanished. Which means we are once again free to be Christians, to believe, to trust, to hope. Even so, we must not forget that hope seen is not hope, to be saved is to be saved in hope.



Almost a century ago, Franz Rosenzweig predicted that in a post-Christendom world, Christians would have to learn hope from the Jews. When Christians could no longer see the kingdom of God adumbrated in the kingdoms of this world, they would have to learn to look for the kingdom through the eyes of the Jews. Christians, stripped of the 1800 years of Christendom, would be free to see as Jews see. For their own 1800 years, Jews had to be faithful without the comforts of temporal power. Christians likewise must now recall what they should have always known: the kingdom is not of this world. And so it has turned out to be.



Of course, since that warm Saturday forty years ago, history has not been kinder to the hopes of the Jews than it has been to the hopes of ultramontane Catholics, ethnic Orthodox, or evangelicals who have identified the eschaton with the manifest destiny of the United States. The fulfillment of ancient longings is not the fulfillment of eternity. We still can only pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Yet it remains to be said: Christians pray because Jews pray. Christians pray in the name of Jesus Messiah; Jews pray in the hope of the Messiah they do not yet name. We have given the Messiah a name (we have been given his name), but that we hope for this Messiah, we owe to the Jews. Therefore, together we pray in hope.




Rosenzweig made another prediction: the new age of hope would not need a new church, but live inside the old churches. Again, so it is: even though our old churches too often intimate a stink of death, we live in hope. Praying the old prayers--Veni, Creator Spiritus--we await new life.



That's why I--a country goy who heard the stories about God's chosen people among the Virginia pines--take Jews seriously.



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Re:

Postby Marcus » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:47 am

Why is it hard to take the Jews seriously? The Jews remain chosen in God's purposes, and one should not take the callings of God lightly.

Second, Christians by no means need to learn hope from the Jews or from anyone else for that matter. While Christians have reason for hope in this world, Christians have always known their citizenship is elsewhere.

Nor do Christians pray because Jews—or anyone else for that matter—pray. Christians pray simply to talk to God. Believers have been praying since Adam and continue to do so. Too, the promise of Messiah far predates the Jews.

I think a great deal of—probably most and perhaps rightly so—Christian fascination with the Jews and Israel is the product of Dispensationalism and a pre-millennial eschatology. Maybe those folks have it right, maybe not. In either case, the Jews remain chosen as St. Paul makes abundantly clear, and Christians would do well to pray for the Jews and for the peace of Jerusalem. Anything more is, well, maybe a bridge too far?
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Re: Salvation is of the Jews

Postby splendid » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:02 pm

I just happened to be reading Salvation is from the Jews by Roy Schoeman which I commend to you. Schoeman who grew up in a fairly religious Jewish family, was mentored by some extraordinary rabbis, went on to MIT where he lost his faith, then to Harvard for his MBA, and on graduation was invited to teach at the B school. But he had become overwhelmed by the meaningless he felt in life when he had a vision on a Cape Cod beach that changed his life. It took several years and a lot of false starts before he was baptized Catholic, a Jewish Catholic

His book subtitled The Role of Judaism in Salvation History from Abraham to the Second Coming examines the unique and central role Judaism plays in the destiny of the world. He writes of biblical prophecies, the Holocaust, the ideological foundations of Nazism, the Second Coming and the Return of the Jews.

I highly recommend it
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Re:

Postby Pastaneta » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:51 pm

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Re:

Postby ellens » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:56 pm

Thank you Pastaneta, for the nice video of the liberation of Jerusalem.
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Re:

Postby Richard Greene » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:18 pm

Two years ago on Yom Kippur, the rabbi made the following point from the beemah (pulpit):

"When the messiah comes, we Jews will greet him as follows: "Welcome!"

Should the messiah turn out to be Jesus, we'll welcome him thusly: "Welcome back!"

As I recall, the 500+ reform congregation laughed uproariously for over half a minute.
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Re:

Postby 49erDweet » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:21 pm

Christians pray for the Jews because Revalations tell us of certain events Jews will accomplish prior to the [second] coming of the Messiah. What's not to pray for? Shouldn't we all want that?

Now it's true some so-called "Christians" don't understand this, and an unknown number are antisemitic. That speaks more to their own personal lack of spiritual or moral intellect, imo, than that of "Christians" in general. The old saw is all too true: "You can pick your nose; you can pick your seat; but you can't pick your relatives". So believers are brothers and sisters in spite of their varying intellects. And our kinship includes "G-d's chosen people".

Good topic, DL.
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Re:

Postby Wolfie » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:38 pm

Two verses come to mind, all too often forgotten by many christians:

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 11:17-18
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
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Re: "Salvation is of the Jews"

Postby Victor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:47 pm

Any good "country boy" deserves a comment from me on an interesting post and I'll try not to boast while I'm writing "IT"

Like many others I've thought often about "Salvation is of the Jews" and "IT" really is not hard to understand and believe because they are God's people but having said that, we are all God's Children and dare I say that He Loves every one of our cells and if they give HIM a chance, He will show each one of them during Eternity that HIS LOVE is Endless.

I could go on and on but I will simply try to close this by saying that Jesus was truly The Only Begotten Son of Our Heavenly Father or else I say with all the respect which I've mustard during these 63 years out of my mother's uterus that if He lied just once then HE is the biggest liar who ever walked this earth.

Don't take my word for "IT" just let one of your cells ask HIM for yourselves with a sincere heart because as far as I am concerned when Jesus said that He did not lose "ONE," He was not just talking about His Apostles, He was talking about each and every one of humanities cells. The way I see "IT" is that "ONE" of Jesus's spiritual cell is given to (US) usual sinner when baptized and........

What is "IT" sinner vic?

That's enough Victor because the last thing we want is for any body to believe any of "IT" cause that means less for us.

Really? In that case all I'm going to say is! Do we need to ear anymore? Therefore, let's together with all our cells continue to pray in hope and Worship "The Blessed Trinity".

God Bless,

Peace
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Re: salvation is of the Jews

Postby reader » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:12 am

I attended a synagogue service by invitation. We prayed the psalms together as one people, Israel. This is a great mystery.
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Re:

Postby Not Even The Rain » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:13 pm

Spengler wrote:"Salvation is of the Jews" on the Spengler Blog
by David Layman

...the sad thing is that you cannot be a Christian and take the Jews seriously at the same time. Or, if you can, it is a very very difficult thing to do… (Not Even the Rain, on Spengler's Forum)


The spiritual man is able to endure a duplication in himself; by his understanding he is able to hold fast to the fact that something is contrary to the understanding, and then will it nevertheless; he is able to to hold fast with the understanding to the fact that something is an offense, and yet to will it nevertheless; that humanly speaking, something makes him unhappy, and yet to will it, etc. Kierkegaard, Attack Upon "Christendom"

Being a Christian and simultaneously taking Jews seriously is indeed a very difficult thing to do. How can one be a Christian, summon all near and far to honor the Lordship of Jesus Christ, Jesus the Messiah, and even so affirm that Jews who have not yet recognized this Messiah, do so rightly? Why "endure the duplication," the contradiction?

On the late afternoon of June 10, 1967, an ordinary boy was cleaning out the family van (It was something like this one; take his word for it: '60s vans were not near as "cool" as today's vans.) Fields on the south and west stretched in the distance. Some miles beyond would have been the Great Dismal Swamp, reputedly the only place in America where one could hunt bear inside of city limits. It must have been warm, it was, after all, summer in the flat tidewater lands of Virginia.  Some of the details are equally hazy--was he listening to a "transistor radio"? He must have been, he must have heard it on the 4 o'clock newscast: The Israeli army had captured Jerusalem! (The records say it happened on June 7. Remember, this is pre-internet America. News took a while to travel.)

Why would an country goy kid, who had never known a Jew in his life (outside the pages of the Bible) be elated over the return of the Jewish people to their holy city? It would be twenty years before he knew about and understood the implications of the cry of hope that ends every Passover Seder, and says goodbye to the sukkah: L'shanah haba'ah b'Yerushalayim! ("Next year in Jerusalem!") What investment did he have?

Because the country lane led to a straight road, and down that road, in a small white Christian meetinghouse that he attended at least three times a week (every night during revival meetings or vacation Bible school), he had been taught that "salvation is of the Jews." The Jews were God's people, God's plans for his people had not been annulled through long years of wandering, and God was yet at work in this fallen world. The goy kid exalted because the events had shown that the preachers in that meetinghouse had not lied. Inside the mysteries of history was gestating a greater mystery: "Your redemption draweth nigh!"

Why do Christians need Jews to assure themselves of the veracity of the promises of salvation? We have almost 2000 years of Christian history. However, already in Kierkegaard's Denmark of 1850, the 1800 years were getting stale. In a society where everyone was a Christian, no one needed to  become a Christian, which, Kierkegaard pointed out, was precisely the necessary thing as a Christian. "Christendom has done away with Christianity," was his pointed warning. Yet that is not our current situation. Christendom itself has vanished. Which means we are once again free to be Christians, to believe, to trust, to hope. Even so, we must not forget that hope seen is not hope, to be saved is to be saved in hope.

Almost a century ago, Franz Rosenzweig predicted that in a post-Christendom world, Christians would have to learn hope from the Jews. When Christians could no longer see the kingdom of God adumbrated in the kingdoms of this world, they would have to learn to look for the kingdom through the eyes of the Jews. Christians, stripped of the 1800 years of Christendom, would be free to see as Jews see. For their own 1800 years, Jews had to be faithful without the comforts of temporal power. Christians likewise must now recall what they should have always known: the kingdom is not of this world. And so it has turned out to be.

Of course, since that warm Saturday forty years ago, history has not been kinder to the hopes of the Jews than it has been to the hopes of ultramontane Catholics, ethnic Orthodox, or evangelicals who have identified the eschaton with the manifest destiny of the United States. The fulfillment of ancient longings is not the fulfillment of eternity. We still can only pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Yet it remains to be said: Christians pray because Jews pray. Christians pray in the name of Jesus Messiah; Jews pray in the hope of the Messiah they do not yet name. We have given the Messiah a name (we have been given his name), but that we hope for this Messiah, we owe to the Jews. Therefore, together we pray in hope.


Rosenzweig made another prediction: the new age of hope would not need a new church, but live inside the old churches. Again, so it is: even though our old churches too often intimate a stink of death, we live in hope. Praying the old prayers--Veni, Creator Spiritus--we await new life.

That's why I--a country goy who heard the stories about God's chosen people among the Virginia pines--take Jews seriously.


Who are you, David Layman? (sorry, my time is so limited...I didn't quite notice the change from Gold to Lay)
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Re: Re:

Postby David Layman » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:48 pm

Not Even The Rain wrote:
Who are you, David Layman? (sorry, my time is so limited...I didn't quite notice the change from Gold to Lay)


Not Even the Rain:

check your PM

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Re: Salvation is of the Jews

Postby Collingwood » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:00 pm

Spengler wrote:In a society where everyone was a Christian, no one needed to  become a Christian, which, Kierkegaard pointed out, was precisely the necessary thing as a Christian. "Christendom has done away with Christianity," was his pointed warning. Yet that is not our current situation. Christendom itself has vanished. Which means we are once again free to be Christians, to believe, to trust, to hope. Even so, we must not forget that hope seen is not hope, to be saved is to be saved in hope.

Almost a century ago, Franz Rosenzweig predicted that in a post-Christendom world, Christians would have to learn hope from the Jews. When Christians could no longer see the kingdom of God adumbrated in the kingdoms of this world, they would have to learn to look for the kingdom through the eyes of the Jews. Christians, stripped of the 1800 years of Christendom, would be free to see as Jews see. For their own 1800 years, Jews had to be faithful without the comforts of temporal power. Christians likewise must now recall what they should have always known: the kingdom is not of this world. And so it has turned out to be.

David,

Fascinating train of thought. I long wondered whether diaspora was not part of the external mission to the Gentiles ... to demonstrate that faith need not be based either on temporal power or on geographical homogeneity in order to survive. Prior to reading your essay, however, I had not revisited that thought in context of Kierkegaard.

To attempt to divine the stratagems of Providence is perilous, but unavoidable ... One wonders whether diaspora may have ended in part because it outlived its necessity -- because the lesson had been taught. Perhaps further reading in the history of Christian Zionism in this light might be warranted. Perhaps a good biography of Balfour ...
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Re: Re:

Postby charleston » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:00 pm

Pastaneta wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6r9-FNWjpE


the good thing about this video, is no Moishe Dayan
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Re:

Postby Spengler » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:15 am

Collingwood,
Missed your Aug. 4 post: pardon the late reply. I am extremely reluctant to guess at why things happened except to note on occasion that some things happened against odds so great that the word "miracle" is admissible as a point of discussion. Rev. John Hagee got into awful trouble for attributing too much specific intervention to God. The Dispensationalists still believe they have access to prophecy. I am convinced by the rabbis that prophecy is gone from Israel.
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