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Spengler Forum at First Things • View topic - Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

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Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Discussion on Spengler's blog postings and essays.

Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Spengler » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:24 am

Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory on the Spengler Blog


by David P. Goldman


Daniel Pipes, the brilliant and tenacious analyst of Middle East strategy, has just published an important essay, "Peace Process or War Process?" In good Clausewitzian terms, Pipes argues that peace will come to the Middle East only through victory. The Palestinians first must feel defeated in order to make peace. He concludes,
Israel's win, ironically, would be the best thing that ever happened to the Palestinians. Compelling them finally to give up on their irredentist dream would liberate them to focus on their own polity, economy, society, and culture. Palestinians need to experience the crucible of defeat to become a normal people — one whose parents stop celebrating their children becoming suicide terrorists, whose obsession with Zionist rejectionism collapses. There is no shortcut.

On the positive side, the U. S. administration should work with Israel, the Arab states, and others to induce the Palestinians to accept Israel's existence by convincing them that they have lost. This means impressing on the Israeli government the need not just to defend itself but to take steps to demonstrate to Palestinians the hopelessness of their cause. That requires not episodic shows of force (such as the 2008-09 war against Hamas in Gaza) but a sustained and systematic effort to deflate a bellicose mentality....

Diplomacy aiming to shut down the Arab-Israeli conflict is premature until Palestinians give up their anti-Zionism. When that happy moment arrives, negotiations can re-open and take up anew the Oslo issues — borders, resources, armaments, sanctities, residential rights. But that is years or decades away. In the meantime, an ally needs to win.

What Pipes does not spell out is what victory would look like. Just what would Israel have to do in order to persuade the Palestinians they have lost? To persuade the Serbs they had lost in the First World War, Austria killed in battle half the country's military-age men. Rather than accept defeat Serbia moved a large part of its civilian population over the mountains in mid-winter to Greece. To persuade the South that it had lost the American Civil War, the Union killed nearly 30% of its military-age men, and even afterward Gen. Robert E. Lee had difficulty persuading his officers to surrender rather than commence guerrila warfare.

Sometimes people would rather die than accept the available terms of surrender, and wars continue until all those who wish to fight to the death have had the opportunity to do so. Sometimes wars continue until the present generation gets too old to fight.

In a recent "Spengler" essay for Asia Times, I characterized the Palestine problem as "hopeless, but not serious." Subsidies give the Palestinians a living standard double that of Egypt and much higher than Jordan or Syria, paying perhaps a quarter of young Palestinian men to carry guns. Persuading them to give up the guns and take a pay cut is not an easy task, particularly if it involves the destruction of cherished illusions about throwing the Jews into the sea. The United Nations relief agencies have created a new sort of people with whom it is extremely difficult, and probably impossible, to have a peace.

To paraphrase Bertolt Brecht, the right thing to do is for the government to dismiss the people and elect another -- except he meant it ironically, and I mean it in dead seriousness. This can occur through 1) immigration, 2) attrition in war, or 3) aging. One has to find a Palestinian people that is content to find employment in a Holy Land theme park for Christian tourists, for example.

Because Palestinian gunmen hide amongst civilians, unlike the Confederate Army of 1861-1865, attrition is too messy a prospect. Immigration is proceeding apace but it creates adverse selection, for those who can leave, do, depleting the skills of the population and leaving in place those who have no other profession but the gun. The best thing to do would be to ignore the situation. That's right: simply announce that it is not a priority for diplomacy. Drastically reduce funding for the Palestine Authority (the easiest way is to insist on a fair census and adjust for the 1.1 million non-existent residents for whom the PA is receiving aid).

As I wrote in the cited Asia Times essay, and reiterated in another way in an article for the Public Square portion of this website yesterday, there is no demographic "time bomb." Arab (and more generally Muslim) fertility is plunging at an astonishing rate, except in Pakistan). In a generation the present cohort of young people will be approaching retirement, and the generation that replaces them will be far smaller in relative terms. Aging societies are more placid.

Annoying as it is, Hamas is not going to develop a nuclear bomb; the attentions of the US should be concentrated on countries that well might develop nuclear bombs.

Patience, patience. Israel is relatively safe behind its security barrier and booming economically (as well as demographically). Let the Palestinians sit there and wonder what will happen next. If other Arab countries complain about the position of the Palestinians, Washington should say: "If you don't like it, you go talk to the Israelis."

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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Ysais » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:27 am

Some people walk in life for the right reasons and with the right motives. If I ask myself what motivates people, I may reply that hope, fear, love and hatred are four of the main "motivators" for people. Those who hope and love are getting motivated for the right reasons but those who fear and hate are just digging deeper into the abyss of their disgrace. This is the case of the Palestinians. Their hatred towards Israel blinds their reasoning and keep them going deeper and deeper into the abyss of their ignorance, poverty, and lack of adaptability to modern times. Why do the Palestinians refuse to accept the State of Israel to a extent that they rather be a "bucket" of refugees rather than a state? The answer is simple: Hate! Hate for life, hate for success, hate for openness, and hate for the Jews.

I don't want to be a pessimist but the Palestinians are really far from accepting the Jewish State. Spengler has written before how Hamas loves death and I add that Hamas loves to hate! Death and hate are the opposite to love and life. So we have the Jews who love life and we have the Palestinians who love death. the Palestinians also remind me of Puerto Rico. Some groups in Puerto Rico want Puerto Rico to be independent from the USA on the surface. But deep inside those groups would sell Puerto Rico again and again if they could. I am almost sure that most Palestinians don't want a two state solution but rather continue in their current status. It's more profitable, and it feeds their hatred. If Palestine had its own state then Who is Hamas going to hate? Remember, the enemies of Israel are fueled through hatred. Hatred is their food and drink. If the subject of their hatred disappears then their existence would make no sense! So in order to continue finding reason to its existence Hamas needs Israel and Hamas need no independent Palestine. This way they will keep their hatred in their hearts, motivating their miserable lives.
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby cassowary » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:58 am

Its their religion that makes them hate. Jews are portrayed in Islam as God's eternal enemies destined to be massacred before Judegement Day can come.
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. - Winston Churchill
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Alexis » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:26 pm

Spengler wrote:Just what would Israel have to do in order to persuade the Palestinians they have lost? To persuade the Serbs they had lost in the First World War, Austria killed in battle half the country's military-age men. Rather than accept defeat Serbia moved a large part of its civilian population over the mountains in mid-winter to Greece. To persuade the South that it had lost the American Civil War, the Union killed nearly 30% of its military-age men, and even afterward Gen. Robert E. Lee had difficulty persuading his officers to surrender rather than commence guerrila warfare.

Sometimes people would rather die than accept the available terms of surrender, and wars continue until all those who wish to fight to the death have had the opportunity to do so. Sometimes wars continue until the present generation gets too old to fight.


Regarding the part which I put in red, it's notable that Serbs were quite right not to be persuaded that they were defeated. Because the fact is that they were not defeated, and Serbia was victorious in the end.

For details, please ask Louis:
Between September 15–29, 1918 General Franchet d'Espèrey, in command of a large army of Greeks (9 divisions), French (6 divisions), Serbs (6 divisions), British (4 divisions) and Italians (1 division) - staged a successful offensive in Macedonia that knocked Bulgaria out of the war. General Franchet d'Espèrey followed up this victory by overrunning much of the Balkans and by the war's end, his troops had penetrated well into Hungary.


At the end of the Serb ordeal, Serbia was free and the Austrian-Hungarian empire was history.


As I wrote in the cited Asia Times essay, and reiterated in another way in an article for the Public Square portion of this website yesterday, there is no demographic "time bomb." Arab (and more generally Muslim) fertility is plunging at an astonishing rate, except in Pakistan). In a generation the present cohort of young people will be approaching retirement, and the generation that replaces them will be far smaller in relative terms. Aging societies are more placid.


Speaking of the Arab and Muslim world in general, that is very right. Countries like Algeria, Tunisia, Turkey or Iran are already at or below replacement fertility. However, it is not true of a certain subset of the Arab world, namely the Palestinian people.

Checking the latest population data about the West Bank and the Gaza strip yields total Palestinian population in these two territories at 4,0 million and average fertility at 3,9 child/woman (higher in Gaza, lower in the WB), a full child above Israeli fertility, not exactly depopulation levels... :D

More to the point, the Palestinian people has a fertility just as much out of the norm with regard to other Arab people than the Israeli fertility is out of the norm with regard to other advanced Western countries. Two very remarkable, indeed unique phenomena, among two peoples who happen to live a few kilometers from one another...

This strongly suggests that we are not looking at two independent variables, but that the two are linked, that this is fact one single phenomenom: Israeli fertility is high because Palestinian fertility is high, and the reverse is true also.

As to the mechanism linking those starkly out of norm fertilities... Well, what is it that links those two peoples together, like two strugglers, like two enemy brothers?

That's right, WAR.

Most Israelis and Palestinians are probably not conscious of the reasons of their choice for a much higher fertility than, say, Americans or Dutch (for the Israelis), or Algerians or Turks (for the Palestinians) But the most probable reason is: to gain or to maintain supremacy over the dreaded Other, by raising more sons and warriors.


I don't think the solution that David Goldman proposes to the Israeli-Palestinian problem would work, namely that the Israelis just forget about it. If it was possible to just ignore it, to say "I am indifferent to you", would the Israelis react with so remarkable a behaviour as a fertility one third higher than America's, twice Germany's?

On the other hand, that Gordian knot is so tighted that it's probably impossible to just cut it, like some Palestinians and a few Israelis probably still fantasy. Nobody will throw the Jews into the sea nor will Israelis decimate and ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Neither will Israelis leave en masse to America or Europe, nor will Palestinians accept as final borders anything less than the whole of the territories they lost in 1967.

This issue may well be with us indefinitly. "Until Kingdom comes"... maybe quite litterally.
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Wellington » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:02 pm

The middle-eastern conflict will never be over until the Islamic-oriented leadership (government, religious, tribal et al) stops fanning the flames of hatred and virulent anti-Semitism. Yes, the Palestinian people hate Israel and their hatred seems to grow by the generation, not dissipate. But if their leadership would stop fomenting troubles- the people would stop. It may take a generation or even two but it would stop. As much as the Palestinian people are full of hatred, they're easily manipulated by the leadership and will pretty much do what they're told. And their leadership can be bought, just like in the early 1900s.

Cash-or-equivalent offers by Israel and the West to buy off the leadership would work - just like resolving North American aboriginal treaties that are hundreds of years old and cause significant distress - the solution is cash and a new contract. Since we're talking life-and-death sorts of issues, on national levels, an appropriate difference might be offers the Palestinians can't refuse:

Option #1: Cash

or

Option #2: Mossad-visit-in-the-night
"Honi soit qui mal y pense"
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby kurt9 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:45 pm

Another nice analysis from Goldman. Every Arab I've known personally has overstated their population numbers. My best friend from college is a Shia Lebonese guy and he once claimed to me that there were 300 million people in Central Asia (this is right before the USSR folded). In reality, there are around 80 million people there. Also, their birthrates are not much higher than that of the Russians. It is no surprise to me that the Muslims would overestimate the population and the birthrate of the Palestinians.

Israel is making the right choice in opening itself up to foreign investment (as well as converting over to a free market economy). Israel has the population half way between that of Singapore and Hong Kong. For purposes of population and geographical size, Israel is essentially a city-state. City-states such as Hong Kong and Singapore have become successful based on manufacturing (especially technology manufacturing) and free market policies involving entrepreneurship and trading with the rest of the world. It has always been a mystery to me why Israel has taken so long to emulate these patterns of the other successful city-states. I have even heard that Israel clung to a socialistic economic model, even long after such models were obviously obsolete. I always thought this irrational. Certainly Israel has the human capital to emulate the successes of Hong Kong and Singapore. All of the Israeli entrepreneurs I have met at places like the semicon trade shows in Japan and China have agreed with me on these points. However, their opinions do not seem to be the norm among Israelis. This is quite irrational to me.

The previous aversion to foreign investment is irrational as well. The best way to get the rest of the world to defend a city-state is to give it a vested interest in doing so. Direct foreign investment is a good way to do this.
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Victor » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:56 pm


Alexis
This issue may well be with us indefinitely. "Until Kingdom comes"... maybe quite laterally.


I hear ya sinner vic! Alex is right! :mrgreen:

There's a comedian everywhere and I apologize for your punt sinner vic but I’m sorry no body knows God’s Thoughts, not even Victor! :?
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Spengler » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:46 pm

The Palestinian population data are completely phony. There aren't 3.5 million people under the PA, only 2.4.
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Dan Kurt » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:16 pm

re: Israel needs to become more free market an economy to succeed.

George Gilder has written a new book on this topic: The Israel Test (ISBN-10: 0980076358) 320 pages;
Publisher: Richard Vigilante Books; 1 edition (July 22, 2009).

This book should not be missed.

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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Richard Greene » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:02 pm

Dan Kurt wrote:re: Israel needs to become more free market an economy to succeed.

George Gilder has written a new book on this topic: The Israel Test (ISBN-10: 0980076358) 320 pages;
Publisher: Richard Vigilante Books; 1 edition (July 22, 2009).

This book should not be missed.

Dan Kurt

Dan:

My copy arrived from Amazon a few days ago. Interestingly, Gilder is not Jewish. World class entrepreneurs have a saying: "If you want to have a nice ski-vacation, go to Europe; if you want to partake of the hi-tech future, build a factory in Israel."
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Richard Greene » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:42 am

kurt9 wrote: I have even heard that Israel clung to a socialistic economic model, even long after such models were obviously obsolete. I always thought this irrational. Certainly Israel has the human capital to emulate the successes of Hong Kong and Singapore.

Jews have always most keenly felt the struggle between tzedakah/social justice and mammon. Communism and Socialism were founded and spread by Jews, namely Karl Marx and Leon Trotsky, and one of the intellectual founding fathers of modern capitalism was a Sephardic Jew, David Ricardo.

The first prime minister of Singapore, David Marshall, Esq., a Baghdadian Jew*, had a 40-year-long running argument with Lee Kuan Yew re the primacy of Western norms emphasizing "individual rights" vs. Chinese Confucian norms emphasizing communal well-being.

* ...the story of David Marshall is one of several epochs. He was born into an Orthodox Jewish family of Iraqi ancestry in turn-of-the-century Singapore. The eldest son of six children, he became profoundly influenced by Judaism's stress on social justice and quickly acquired the qualities that were to be his abiding hallmarks: humanitarianism, compassion and generosity. http://ourstory.asia1.com.sg/independen ... david.html
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Michael » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:37 am

Richard Greene wrote:
kurt9 wrote: I have even heard that Israel clung to a socialistic economic model, even long after such models were obviously obsolete. I always thought this irrational. Certainly Israel has the human capital to emulate the successes of Hong Kong and Singapore.

Jews have always most keenly felt the struggle between tzedakah/social justice and mammon. Communism and Socialism were founded and spread by Jews, namely Karl Marx and Leon Trotsky, and one of the intellectual founding fathers of modern capitalism was a Sephardic Jew, David Ricardo.

The first prime minister of Singapore, David Marshall, Esq., a Baghdadian Jew*, had a 40-year-long running argument with Lee Kuan Yew re the primacy of Western norms emphasizing "individual rights" vs. Chinese Confucian norms emphasizing communal well-being.

* ...the story of David Marshall is one of several epochs. He was born into an Orthodox Jewish family of Iraqi ancestry in turn-of-the-century Singapore. The eldest son of six children, he became profoundly influenced by Judaism's stress on social justice and quickly acquired the qualities that were to be his abiding hallmarks: humanitarianism, compassion and generosity. http://ourstory.asia1.com.sg/independen ... david.html


Christian theologians have traditionally categorized four sins as "crying to Heaven for vengence." They are all from the Pentateuch and two of them are directly concerned with social justice.

Murder

And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.” (Gn 4:10)

Sodomy

Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry which has come to me.” (Gn 18:20-21)

Oppressing Widows & Orphans

“You shall not afflict any widow or orphan. If you do afflict them, and they cry out to me, I will surely hear their cry.” (Ex 21-23)

Defrauding Labourers of their Due

“You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your brethren or one of the sojourners who are in your land within your towns; you shall give him his hire on the day he earns it, before the sun goes down (for he is poor, and sets his heart upon it); lest he cry against you to the Lord, and it be a sin in you.” (Dt 24:14-15)


Jewish concern with social justice is clearly well-rooted in Scripture.
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Spengler » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:14 am

Michael,
Thanks for that note.

There is a debate among orthodox Jews as to obligations towards Gentiles. In the "text and texture" blog produced by the Orthodox Union, there is an excellent recent discussion of this:
http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=284
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby mencken » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:46 am

:twisted: Sorry to interrupt this Zionist wankfest, but your wishful thinking will not make the Palestinians go away. It hasn't happened and won't. Each succeeding generation is just as intent as the previous one on having a homeland. Israel is not a light unto the nations but is simply a warmed-over colonial enterprise based on a devotion to "blood and soil" that would have made any 19th century German romantic philosopher happy. It'll be interesting when Netanyahu's government fails and someone like Moshe Feiglin takes power. Will the US citizenry forever put up with propping up Israel? Probably not. And when that day comes, Israel will have to choose between its irredentist fantasies and becoming a law-abiding citizen of the world.
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Re: Hopeless, but Not Serious: Pipes on Victory

Postby Spengler » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:12 am

Mencken reminds me why we are not going to have peace any time soon. I should point out that if Zionism were a colonialist enterprise, the Zionist Organization would have accepted Britain's offer of Uganda or the Kimberly rather insisting on Eretz Yisrael. Given that Israel is sounder demographically and economically, pound for pound, than any other country in the world, it seems churlish to refer to this discussion as a "wankfest."
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