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Spengler Forum at First Things • View topic - Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

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Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

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Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Spengler » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:05 am

Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus? on the Spengler Blog


by David P. Goldman


Burning the Koran (or any book) is a bad thing, and the Rev. Terry Jones of something called the Dove World Outreach Center will violate basic standards of decency when he sets fire to the Muslim holy book on Sept. 11. But it is Constitutionally-protected free speech. Last year a North Carolina church observed Halloween by burning Bible translations it considered heretical, to nary a peep from the national media. Blasphemous treatment of Christian religious symbols is commonplace, from Andre Serrano's crucifix-in-urine construction to Chris Ofili's elephant dung Madonna.

Where does Gen. David Petraeus get off telling American civilians how to express their opinions? Serving American military officers are not supposed to poke their noses into such matters. Petraeus well may be correct that "extremists" will use the burning of the Koran to stir up anti-American sentiments. If an American commander finds it inconvenient when Americans express antipathy towards Islam, where will it end?

If the obnoxious and misguided Rev. Jones can be bullied into silence, who else will be told to shut up? "Extremists" well may express outrage when an American writer cites the opinion of the great German-Jewish theologian Franz Rosenzweig concerning Islam, namely that it is a "parody" of Judaism and Christianity, a "monistic paganism" in which Allah represents "the whole colorful panlopy of Olympus rolled up into one."

Petraeus says that the planned Koran-burning "is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems -- not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community." What about Americans who don't believe that the US should be "engaged with the Islamic community?" What about the Rev. Pat Robertson, who has said for years that Allah is a pagan moon-god? Will Petraeus demand that he shut up?

Petraeus this year addressed the annual dinners of the American Enterprise Institute, Commentary Magazine, and the Hudson Institute. Are these organizations planning to suppress negative comments about Islam?

Unlike some of my conservative colleagues, I take a skeptical view of Petraeus success in the 2008 "surge" in Iraq.  As I wrote last April in the Tablet webzine, the Potemkin village of stability in Iraq required a hands-off policy towards Iran, which had the capability all along to make a dog's breakfast of American efforts to stabilize the situation on the ground:
Iran has gained political ascendancy in Iraq through intensive subversion efforts. According to senior military sources cited by Washington Post columnist David Ignatius on February 25, “The Iranians allegedly are pumping $9 million a month in covert aid to the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, a Shiite party that has the most seats in the Iraqi parliament, and $8 million a month to the militant Shiite movement headed by Moqtada al-Sadr.”

Petraeus’s opinions about the Middle East carry less weight than those of his boss, Joint Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen, who has been warning against an Israeli strike against Iran’s nuclear capability for the past year. In a March 16, 2009, interview with Charlie Rose, Mullen said: “What I worry about in terms of an attack on Iran is, in addition to the immediate effect, the effect of the attack, it’s the unintended consequences. It’s the further destabilization in the region. It’s how they would respond. We have lots of Americans who live in that region who are under the threat envelope right now [because of the] capability that Iran has across the Gulf. So, I worry about their responses and I worry about it escalating in ways that we couldn’t predict.”

A rough translation of Mullen’s remarks into civilian political language is that the quixotic notion of building democracy in the Middle East led the United States into an Iranian trap.

Petraeus put about 100,000 Sunni fighters on the payroll of the American army, a good way to postpone sectarian conflict until American troops are gone. His supposed "success" sets up a prospective Thirty Years War in the region.

Whatever criticisms I might have of Petraeus' actions as a serving officer are beside the point, though. His intervention into civilian issues of free speech is outrageous. Islam does not demand equal treatment with other religions, which had to take their share of lumps from a hostile secular environment. Muslims are demanding special treatment. They have no right to do so, and Petraeus has no business demanding that Americans give special treatment to Muslims.

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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Ysais » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:42 pm

General Petraeus is just paving his way into the 2012 elections. This guy talks like a politically correct, beaten into submission, defeated, ill-intended politician --He is not talking like a warrior. Specially one who is in charge of fighting such a fierce enemy in such a difficult battlefield. This is just another step backwards in our dialogue about freedom of speech and Americans' perceptions of Islam. The media is doing a superb job siding with Petraeus... and thinking that this is the same man that they mercilessly criticized during the Bush era...
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby charleston » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:13 pm

exactly
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Pastaneta » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:25 pm

While burning the Koran is probably stupid, it is protected speech. I guess generals do not have to know the Constitution!
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby charleston » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:38 pm

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/eisenhower-der-fuhrers-face-song-could-endanger-troops----no-wait.html


The idea that in wartime one should be careful not to do anything that the enemy is likely to respond to with irrational and even murderous anger may seem tactically wise at first glance, but ultimately it is a recipe for surrender. One is already accepting the enemy's worldview and perspective, and working to accommodate it, instead of working on various fronts, not just the military one, to show why it is wrong and should be opposed.
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Arguing Against Determined Hardness - Folly of

Postby Whitehall » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:43 pm

Western civilization continues its age-old competition with Islam. Oft times this competition has been violent, other times not so. Certain factions in Islam, the Islamists, have recently turned to violence.

Our government's policy since Bush has been to divide the Islamists from the rest of the followers of Islam. However, the American public has not accepted this strategy and rightly considers all Islam as the cultural enemy.

Our generals are following civilian policy and these recent statements are clearly correct from the point of view of a commander on the ground. Yet they highlight the divide between government policy and public perception. Government policy is still "Be nice to the Muslims so they won't hurt us again."

Thomas Paine wrote in "The Crisis," early in the American Revolution:

"Yet it is folly to argue against determined hardness; eloquence may strike the ear, and the language of sorrow draw forth the tear of compassion, but nothing can reach the heart that is steeled with prejudice."

General Petraeus, remember that your job is not to argue against determined hardness, but to smash it, overcome it, reduce it to impotence. Yes, your job will be made more difficult by this burning of the Koran, which is a tacky thing to do, but it is NOT your job to judge the political/cultural actions of citizens.

A related question, why is the US admitting so many people from Muslim countries into the US as permanent residents? This is just asking for trouble.
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Frodo » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:50 pm

Pastaneta wrote:While burning the Koran is probably stupid, it is protected speech. I guess generals do not have to know the Constitution!

Petraeus isn't violating the Constitution. He isn't saying that the church should be forced not to burn the Koran, he is merely expressing his opinion that burning the Koran would have very bad consequences for the troops and is requesting that they not burn it for that reason. The troops' safety is a valid concern of the general.

If you think that General Petraeus is violating the First Amendment, you haven't a clue about the First Amendment.
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Frodo » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:56 pm

charleston wrote:http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/eisenhower-der-fuhrers-face-song-could-endanger-troops----no-wait.html


The idea that in wartime one should be careful not to do anything that the enemy is likely to respond to with irrational and even murderous anger may seem tactically wise at first glance, but ultimately it is a recipe for surrender. One is already accepting the enemy's worldview and perspective, and working to accommodate it, instead of working on various fronts, not just the military one, to show why it is wrong and should be opposed.

There's a huge difference between making fun of the Fuhrer and buring the Koran. All those that followed Hitler were our enemies, while not everyone who values the Koran is our enemy. We're spending blood and treasure helping our Muslim allies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Burning the Koran puts this huge investment at risk.
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Pastaneta » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:59 pm

That's the real question. The Koran is antithetical to all we believe in. So to say that not all followers of the Koran are our enemies is to indulge in make belief! Or PC discourse.
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Frodo » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:05 pm

Pastaneta wrote:That's the real question. The Koran is antithetical to all we believe in. So to say that not all followers of the Koran are our enemies is to indulge in make belief! Or PC discourse.

So we should be burning the Koran while we're training Iraqi and Afghani soldiers and police?
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Pastaneta » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:09 pm

First what the "we" is for the troops. The pastor has the right to do whatever he wants. He doesn't train any troop.

In my opinion, the whole training won't help in Afghanistan. They'll stay stuck in the 13th century CE. In Iraq, maybe. But we don't have to admire their religion.
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Pastaneta » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:10 pm

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/004826.html

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.…A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities ... but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome. [The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pp. 248-50.]


Churchill knew what he was talking about... Maybe the reason Hussein Obama sent back his bust to England.
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby Wellington » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:29 pm

Pastaneta wrote:That's the real question. The Koran is antithetical to all we believe in. So to say that not all followers of the Koran are our enemies is to indulge in make belief! Or PC discourse.


It's not even whether they are all enemies or not - and antithetical beliefs or not, it's about how many of them actually care enough now to make trouble for non-Muslims in the world at large vs how many more (thousands? hundreds of thousands? millions?) of those relatively laissez-faire benign Muslims will be turned to the Islamist cause because of what they see as a deliberate and purely gratuitous act of hatred, blasphemy, insult and provocation.

You persist in seeing everything through your own lens; try the mind-expanding perspective of the other guy's lens.
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Re: Where Does It Stop, Gen. Petraeus?

Postby PaulR » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:06 pm

300 Million Americans - and 5 or 10 unknown crackpots in Florida wanting to burn Korans elicits immediate and strident remarks from not only Petreus, but Holder and Obama and their lap-dogs in parts of the media?

This is just a desperate Administration knowing it got its butt-kicked on the Ground Zero Mosque issue, trying to change the public debate, and countering with just more racial/cultural reminders to the American people.
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Re: Arguing Against Determined Hardness - Folly of

Postby DodgerUSA » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:20 pm

Whitehall wrote:
A related question, why is the US admitting so many people from Muslim countries into the US as permanent residents? This is just asking for trouble.


Bingo! This is the million dollar question! Why are we letting these Muslims in the country? Why is this guy Rauf an American citizen? Do we need him? There should be some kind of test that these guys have to take before they are allowed in the country. You think the U.S. is the root of evil? Out. You think Israel has no right to exist? Out. You think Sharia Law is okay? Gone.

Isn't this the lesson from the Ground Zero Mosque... why are we allowing these people into the U.S.? Our kids will pay for this.
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