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Spengler Forum at First Things • View topic - Practical Theology

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Practical Theology

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Practical Theology

Postby Spengler » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Practical Theology on the Spengler Blog


by David P. Goldman


Theologians for the most part are a placid and contemplative tribe. That is a shame, for practical theology can be exhilirating. No-one allow me into a PhD program in theology, one academic friend warns, much less give me a teaching position at any reputable (or even disreputable) institution of higher learning. That's probably for the best. I probably would do things like this:

"Class, your final assignment for the semester is: Devise a heresy for someone else's religion."

In today's Spengler essay at Asia Times Online, I suggest -- just for purposes of argument, mind you -- that certain intelligence services might have an interest in devising Islamic heresies.
Asymmetrical warfare was supposed to benefit the insurgents. For the price of a few flying lessons a gang of jihadis brought down the World Trade Center, a terrorist with a bottle of hydrogen peroxide and powdered Tang can blow up an airplane, and a few pounds of plutonium can cripple a major city.

Meet the Reverend Terry Jones, asymmetrical warrior. It appears that pinpricks can produce chain reactions in the Islamic world. The threat may be termed asymmetrical because Islam is more vulnerable to theological war than Christianity (or for that matter Judaism). 
 [snip]

Instead of trying to stabilize the Islamic world, suppose - just for the sake of argument - that one or two world powers set out to throw it into chaos. I am not advocating such a strategy, only evaluating its effectiveness.
[snip]

I cite a few candidate for instigators (including Russia and Turkey) and offer some examples of prospective heresies.

Not that I am actually proposing to do this -- as Richard Nixon said to the tape recorder, "We could do this, but it would be wrong."

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Re: Practical Theology

Postby Walter Sobchak » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:11 pm

Good Thought. How about funding some Baha'is to do missionary work in Iran. Or Zoroastrians. They are both native Iranian religions. Baha'i in particular is an Islamic heresy so you don't have to invent it.
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby lzzrdgrrl » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:10 pm

"......Meet the Reverend Terry Jones, asymmetrical warrior. It appears that pinpricks can produce chain reactions in the Islamic world. The threat may be termed asymmetrical because Islam is more vulnerable to theological war than Christianity (or for that matter Judaism). ......."


The Christian and Judaic Faiths have been on the receiving end of asymmetric warfare for at least a couple of centuries and is battle-hardened by it.......

Every day, it's another affront, another brickbat. One day, it's Jesus riding dinosaurs, another, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, another, the DaVinci Code, another, the choirboy paedo sex-rings. It never stops and yet there is no pseudo-apocalyptic meltdown. If any of these pinpricks can bring down the islamic world, the Christian-inspired western world can survive a cannon blast. All the West need do is to acknowledge a lil' something :wink: .......
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby Richard Greene » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:21 am

Spengler wrote:Practical Theology on the Spengler Blog
by David P. Goldman

. . .
Some future American administration, though, might throw up its hands in frustration, and a future intelligence chief might whisper to the president, "If they want to kill each other, why not help them?" That was America's stance during the Iran-Iraq War.
. . .


The good old days...The longest conventional war of the 20th Century was the Iran-Iraq War, a " Sunni-Shi'a sectarian war cast in national terms", per Vali Nasr. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HJ28Ak01.html
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby JimD'Troy » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:57 am

I suspect all a nation like Russia need do to instigate significant chaos between Sunni and Shia is back anyone claiming to be the Madhi and ride that horse until it's time to switch to another. Timothy Furnish might have a better idea of the potential suspects out there.

http://www.mahdiwatch.org/
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:44 am

I clicked on the "Spengler Essay at Asia Times Online" link in Spengler's post and was sent here:

https://www.cia.gov/careers/opportuniti ... index.html

Obviously Big Brother is watching this forum......... or maybe it is just me......
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby ellens » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:52 am

I have always thought that the real "solution" to the Middle East conflict involving Arabs and Israelis involves precisely this idea of permanent chaos in the Islamic world. Trotsky had his theory of permanent revolution in which you could keep the communist world permanently energized and mobilized by having it engaged in continuous external wars with capitalist societies. The other advantage of permanent revolution was that if you keep the capitalists occupied with fighting wars, the relative advantage of capitalism over socialism (greater productivity) is nullified.

Using this sort of thinking, permanent chaos in the Islamic world with Muslim occupied mainly with fighting other Muslims, totally nullifies the demographic advantage of the Muslims over the Jews, which would otherwise be quite overwhelming. It also demoralizes the Muslims, as they see that what is bringing them down is not perfidious Zionism, imperialism or American influence, but their own drive for conquest being turned against other members of the House of Islam instead of those in the House of War. The only way a Muslim army can win a war these days is to fight against another Muslim army. Incompetence and corruption can only win over another force that is even more incompetent and corrupt.

Let them have a go at each other for another 30 years while Israel builds itself into a regional power and America regenerates itself internally.
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby Pastaneta » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:00 am

Ellens:

the problem is that there is already complete chaos in the Islamic world. Without adhering to any conspiracy theory, I am quite certain that we don't hear about thousand of violent incidents there. There has been chaos more or less since Muhammad and probably before.

Muslims have been trying to reconcile this by finding devilish enemies who provoke the chaos. They do not like the test of the mirror.
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby Spengler » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:05 am

I was intentionally vague about details of Operation Tohu v'Bohu. If you have any really good suggestions, save them up for when I get to run the Directorate of Operations.
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby Michael » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:39 am

In the Asia Times article, Spengler wrote:
Divide-and-conquer served the British well; that is how they managed to rule India with only 3,000 regular army officers, most of whom spoke local dialects and donned local dress.

An ancestor of mine, Lt-Col William Linnaeus Gardner (b. 1770) in 1809 raised, at Farrukhabad and Mainpuri, the famous cavalry corps known as "Gardner's Horse.” In 1796, he married by Muslim rites, Nawab Mah Manzilunnissa Begum Dehlivi, aged 13, a princess of Cambay, afterwards adopted as daughter by her uncle, Padshah Akbar Shah, Emperor of Delhi. Such an inter-racial marriage was no new thing in the Gardner family; he was descended from Col Jonathan Gale of Fullerswood, Parish of St Elizabeth, Jamaica, who, in 1699, had married a West African slave, Eleanor.

Gardner’s granddaughter, Susan Gardner [Sabia Begum], married Mirza Anjan Shikoh, son of Shahzada Mirza Suleiman Shikoh of the Delhi Imperial Family. He was the grandson of Padshah-e Hind (Emperor of India) Jalal ad-Din Abu´l Mozaffar Mohammad Ali Gauhar Shah Alam II (1759/1788).

Such family connections were quite common in the days of the old East India Company, right up until the Indian Mutiny of 1857.

On a personal note, as a direct descendant of Sabia Begum, I must have any number of Muslim ancestors of varying degrees of orthodoxy and observance from the first Mughal Emperor, Zahir ud-Din Mohammad (Babur) onwards. Of course, it also makes me a lineal descendant of Genghis Khan, with whom I share a love of horses, a simplicity of tastes and (according to my friends) a certain acerbity of manner.
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby ellens » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:59 am

Michael wrote:In the Asia Times article, Spengler wrote:
Divide-and-conquer served the British well; that is how they managed to rule India with only 3,000 regular army officers, most of whom spoke local dialects and donned local dress.

An ancestor of mine, Lt-Col William Linnaeus Gardner (b. 1770) in 1809 raised, at Farrukhabad and Mainpuri, the famous cavalry corps known as "Gardner's Horse.” In 1796, he married by Muslim rites, Nawab Mah Manzilunnissa Begum Dehlivi, aged 13, a princess of Cambay, afterwards adopted as daughter by her uncle, Padshah Akbar Shah, Emperor of Delhi. Such an inter-racial marriage was no new thing in the Gardner family; he was descended from Col Jonathan Gale of Fullerswood, Parish of St Elizabeth, Jamaica, who, in 1699, had married a West African slave, Eleanor.

Gardner’s granddaughter, Susan Gardner [Sabia Begum], married Mirza Anjan Shikoh, son of Shahzada Mirza Suleiman Shikoh of the Delhi Imperial Family. He was the grandson of Padshah-e Hind (Emperor of India) Jalal ad-Din Abu´l Mozaffar Mohammad Ali Gauhar Shah Alam II (1759/1788).


Such family connections were quite common in the days of the old East India Company, right up until the Indian Mutiny of 1857.

On a personal note, as a direct descendant of Sabia Begum, I must have any number of Muslim ancestors of varying degrees of orthodoxy and observance from the first Mughal Emperor, Zahir ud-Din Mohammad (Babur) onwards. Of course, it also makes me a lineal descendant of Genghis Khan, with whom I share a love of horses, a simplicity of tastes and (according to my friends) a certain acerbity of manner.



Well, at least you didn't submit large swaths of Asia to the sword. Write that on your resume as proof of good character, with such dubious antecedents.
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby CognitiveDistoibance » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:33 am

Michael wrote:... Of course, it also makes me a lineal descendant of Genghis Khan, with whom I share a love of horses, a simplicity of tastes and (according to my friends) a certain acerbity of manner.

Somehow, sir, I find the last element rather doubtful...
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby Michael » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

CognitiveDistoibance wrote:
Michael wrote:... Of course, it also makes me a lineal descendant of Genghis Khan, with whom I share a love of horses, a simplicity of tastes and (according to my friends) a certain acerbity of manner.

Somehow, sir, I find the last element rather doubtful...

Well, let us say that, like Dr Johnson, I have principles that I do not suffer tamely to be contradicted
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Re: Practical Theology

Postby BWoB » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:18 pm

Pastaneta wrote:Ellens:

the problem is that there is already complete chaos in the Islamic world. Without adhering to any conspiracy theory, I am quite certain that we don't hear about thousand of violent incidents there. There has been chaos more or less since Muhammad and probably before.

Muslims have been trying to reconcile this by finding devilish enemies who provoke the chaos. They do not like the test of the mirror.


So what we need to do is organize the Chaos, in spirit of the computer programming maxim about how "the generation of random numbers is far too important to be left to chance." Then, with luck, both sides can lose, or better yet, win.
"That's what we all are. Amateurs. We don't live long enough to be anything else." - Charlie Chaplin
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Practical Disorder

Postby Whitehall » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:06 pm

For a status quo state like the US, which strives to sponsor the rule of law and promotes global free trade as necessary for its own prosperity, the downside is that such a tactic might succeed all too well. Even the Iran-Iraq war spilled over into the Gulf and hazarded the West's oil shipping lanes, requiring intervention by the US Navy.

Religion is sometimes likened to a mental virus. To create and distribute another virulent religous germ is akin to engaging in biological warfare. Spreading a wheat rust on your enemy risks a mutation that wipes out one's own corn.

Still, I hope the US is the world expert at it, if not an active practitioner.

But what are th defenses?
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