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Spengler Forum at First Things • View topic - Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

For discussion of David P. Goldman's writings

Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Discussion on Spengler's blog postings and essays.

Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby Spengler » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:11 am

Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place on the Spengler Blog


by David P. Goldman


The purpose of organizations and associations is to protect insiders from the consequences of incompetence, which is why socialism is worse than big business, and the one-party system is worse than the two-party system. One of the drawbacks of the two-party system, though, is that once one of the parties commits itself to defending obvious stupidity, it cannot back itself out of the trap without sacrificing the reputation of some prominent members. It took the Republicans twenty years to recover from their commitment to Herbert Hoover's stupid economics, and it took the Democrats twelve years to recover from Jimmy Carter's defeatism.

The obvious, stupid error from which the Republicans cannot recover is the presumption that America could determine the political evolution of Iraq. Now that the Iranian-backed Sadrists have pushed their way into the Maliki government, American influence has fallen to a seven-year nadir. My friends at the National Review are alarmed at this, and want to blame the Obama administration for failing to take advantage of the wonderful position established by the last administration. It's the sort of bloviating that the late William F. Buckley used to puncture with one pointed word.

NRO writes today:
If President Obama is “out of Afghanistan psychologically,” as Bob Woodward reports in his new book, one can only imagine how thoroughly detached he is from Iraq.

He should start paying some attention. The news last week that the Sadrists have thrown their weight behind Iraqi prime minister Nouri al-Maliki, putting him on the verge of securing a governing coalition, isclose to the worst possible outcome of the Iraqi election and the aftermath.

First, it would marginalize Iraqiya, the party that won a plurality and has the most appeal to the Sunnis we want to feel vested in the new Iraqi state, lest they return to insurgency and al-Qaeda. Worse, it would do it on the strength of the support of Moqtada al-Sadr, a rabidly anti-American cleric closely allied with Iran, whose price for supporting Maliki is likely to include control of key ministries in the next government. The last time the Sadrists were given a measure of control over the instruments of state, they transformed them into tools to wage sectarian war against the Sunnis.

"There are obviously limits to our control of Iraqi politics," NRO's editors concede,  "but we should be using every possible instrument of persuasion to forestall the creation of a government that could be the predicate for renewed ethnic conflict."

I began writing the "Spengler" columns at Asia Times Online because my conservative friends were locked into a sort of right-wing social engineering, and authentically believed that Iraq could be transformed into a pro-American democracy. After a trillion dollars and 4,000 lives, it is difficult for conservatives to concede that the whole exercise was ill-advised to begin with. Better, they believe, to blame the outcome on Obama, on whose watch the ugly denouement will proceed. I doubt the voters will take this seriously; they voted for Obama in the first place in part because they didn't believe in the Bush administration's effort.

As my friend Daniel Pipes has argued for years, the best approach to contentious and threatening Muslim countries is containment. Shut them off. Control the movement of goods, money and people carefully (with a fraction of the resources required for occupation) and if they do something truly threatening, use military power--but without taking ownership of their political mess.




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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby kurt9 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:00 pm

Good point.

The neo-conservatives are better described as neo-jacobins.
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby frank » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:33 pm

i love your insight;
your last sentences are a valuable program, but for us in europe it seems more difficult,
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby total issues » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:57 pm

Well, yes, Spengler but did you think at the time of the invasion, that it was a bad idea? 20/20 hindsight is always wonderful.
History does not repeat, but it rhymes
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby Richard Greene » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:20 pm

total issues wrote:Well, yes, Spengler but did you think at the time of the invasion, that it was a bad idea? 20/20 hindsight is always wonderful.

ti:

There is a huge difference between the quickie invasion of Iraq and the toppling of the Hussein regime vs. the years-long American occupation of Iraq and the bankrupt ab initio Neocon policy of nationbuilding/democratization/social engineering in an Arabo-Muslim land. Daniel Pipes long ago advocated putting in a pro-American "strongman" shortly after Saddam Hussein was removed from power.
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby thenachash » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:28 am

God bless u for saying this Spengler! The knee jerk reaction of Republicans when faced with the disastrous reality of the Iraq war is to start a litany of name calling and cursing those critics as "Obama Lovers". Of all the people who have the "street cred" to NOT blame Obama for something it is u. Ur CLASSIC comments about his mother "going native" and his sociopathic narcissism have been the most brutal and accurate I have seen. For u to put the blame for this quagmire on Bush and let Obama off the hook on this one really means a lot as i dont think anyone will ever call u an Obama lover. But just curious if u have taken any abuse for ur stance.

But this is a real problem for the Republicans. Until they own up to this fiasco and put it behind they cant move on with any agenda. the Republican party needs a regime change. Personally I am disgusted with them just as much as the Democrats. Well maybe a little less. But not wanting to take their lumps for their stupidity and incompetence is a MAJOR threat to this country. And it ruins there credibility on other matters. And i should add that some of the WORST offenders in this idiotic support for the war and Bush comes from Republican Jews. These people have a blind love for Bush, no doubt because of his iron clad support for israel. These people believe that all Israel needs is the US on its side and all will be well. I have REPEATEDLY tried explaining to these people that the biggest threat to Israel is a weak US. Bushs war will ultimately put Israel in a horrible position due to the destruction Americas power, economy and standing.

I should add that I was one of those idiots who thought iraqis would welcome the chance to be free and would seize the opportunity presented by the US invasion to build a nation. My opinion was skewed by my observation of American Muslims and Arabs who in general r high achievers. But now i understand clearly..thats why they r here in the first place! Orianna Falacci was right...they dont deserve freedom.

The REAL problem is that there STILL seems to be this idiotic neocon belief that we can indeed recreate the world in the image of the US. This needs to be stopped. And anyone who points out the folly of our efforts is immediately snuffed out. Try telling any of the AM talk radio guys that our Iraqi adventure was a failure and see what responses u elicit. How can we get the word out?
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby Richard Greene » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:48 pm

thenachash wrote:Try telling any of the AM talk radio guys that our Iraqi adventure was a failure and see what responses u elicit. How can we get the word out?


About 2-3 years ago, on a lark, I called up John Gibson's radio talk-show to explain that the US would be better off leaving the Iraqis to their own civil/splinter war devices, and Gibson immediately tried to paint me as a wimpy peacenik. Diana West — who shares the Spenglerian point of view — has gotten similar treatment by the conservative talk-radio pundits.

Spengler is in a lonely world out there.
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby thenachash » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:03 am

RG,

The problem is that its not just talk radio idiots. Otherwise intelligent people r completely blind to the fact that this is a failure. Its like a person who buys a stock on a "hot tip" thinking he is gonna make a quick buck. Then as soon as he buys the shares it loses half its value. Then he suddenly goes from "quick buck" to LONG TERM INVESTOR. Its similar situation in Iraq. When I ask these people what we accomplished in Iraq when we r paying 3 dollars for gas, our currency is crap and we r having trouble recruiting people for the military and Iraq is STILL a mess, they say...well we will see in the FUTURE, maybe Iraq will be ok. yeah sure, and maybe it will become an Iranian client state! Its really insanity. And the problem is that it has implications for other things completely unrelated to Iraq and undermines the credibility of those responsible.

Im sympathetic to those people like Bush who think we can recreate the world in America's image and that is what EVERYONE in the world wants. I was one of these people! Thats what they taught me in school form Kindergarten. I studied engineering at university, so I wasnt exposed to these left wing radicals on a daily basis and missed out on what my rabbi would call APICOURSES! It should be obvious that if so many people in the west hate our system, why should we expect a bunch of poor, illiterate, inbred, fanatical fascists to wanna be like America. I guess i can eat crow without any repurcussions. But it really is time someone stepped up and laid the cards on the table and acknowledged the failure of the Iraqi adventure, and come up w/a plan to extricate ourselves from the problem with as little damage as possible. Refusing to lose when the game is over is what the palestinains have been doing these past 60 years. Lets take the loss and regroup and move on
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby Darryl Harb » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:30 pm

At the time, I assumed that the Wilsonian rationale for the Iraq invasion was largely a ruse to elicit support from domestic liberals who might otherwise balk, and enable supportive European governments to sell it there. Perhaps it became an actual (if dubious) goal when the cold calculus of simply abandoning the Iraqis after neutralizing Saddam began to look both morally troubling and politically risky. Easier, in some ways, simply to convince oneself that it could work.

But while we're on the subject, how do we evaluate the many other questionable military commitments we have, notably Kosovo?
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby cassowary » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:38 pm

I don't agree with your analysis, Spengler. Obuma's haste to depart has made failure more likely. He has cut US troops, thereby weakening US influence This is a bad signal to send to your friends. It tells them that they cannot rely on the US. Should or when US forces leave, they will be at the mercy of Moqtada al Sadr. So the normal reaction is to make a deal with the bad guys now.
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. - Winston Churchill
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby Richard Greene » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:02 pm

thenachash wrote:RG,
When I ask these people what we accomplished in Iraq when we r paying 3 dollars for gas, our currency is crap and we r having trouble recruiting people for the military and Iraq is STILL a mess, they say...well we will see in the FUTURE, maybe Iraq will be ok.

Had the US invested the one trillion dollars blown on Iraq into finding a substitute for oil as an energy source for our cars, we'd be filling up with our garden hoses today.

In the past, once super-valuable commodities became worthless overnight due to technological innovation. When Napoleon sought a substitute for salt as a food presevative via a national competition for a reward, the winner came up with ...canning! The next day the price of salt (from which the word salary comes, as Roman Centurions were paid with bags of salt) took a dive.
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby thenachash » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:34 pm

For a trillion we could have just bought all of Saddams oil from him and called it a day. BTW, its more like 2 trillion when u consider all the soft costs. Not to mention what it has done to the cost of oil.
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby cassowary » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:34 pm

Richard Greene wrote:
thenachash wrote:RG,
When I ask these people what we accomplished in Iraq when we r paying 3 dollars for gas, our currency is crap and we r having trouble recruiting people for the military and Iraq is STILL a mess, they say...well we will see in the FUTURE, maybe Iraq will be ok.

Had the US invested the one trillion dollars blown on Iraq into finding a substitute for oil as an energy source for our cars, we'd be filling up with our garden hoses today.

In the past, once super-valuable commodities became worthless overnight due to technological innovation. When Napoleon sought a substitute for salt as a food presevative via a national competition for a reward, the winner came up with ...canning! The next day the price of salt (from which the word salary comes, as Roman Centurions were paid with bags of salt) took a dive.


I do agree with this. Bush should have done more to lessen the US dependence on foreign oil and come up with alternative energy sources. Without oil, the Saudis cannot promote their Wahabbi version of Islam. Iran would also become a basket case. Iraq was already a basket case with the sanciton on. But that does not stop Iran or Iraq from pursuing nukes.

At that time, most people thought that Saddam was secretly pursuing nukes. Otherwise, why did he kick out the UN inspectors in 1998? Now, with hindsight we know he had no wmd program at the time of the Iraqi invasion. But that does not mean that he would not find ways to restart it if we leave him alone, especially if he hears that Iran is forging ahead with its nuke program.

But would $1 trillion be enough to come up with an alternative energy source to replace oil? I doubt it. What would he spend that money on? Solar? Fuel cells? Wind? All these are not cheap compared to oil. So is he going to subsidize these expensive sources of energy with that $1 trillion? The money would go off very fast.

Research to make them cheaper? Can $1 trillion worth of reseach find a cheaper source of alternative energy? I don't know. Why doesn't Obuma, Bush's successor spend his trillion $ 'stimulus' money on making America more energy independent and finding alternatives to oil?
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. - Winston Churchill
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby Yab Yum » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:14 am

cassowary wrote:Why doesn't Obuma, Bush's successor spend his trillion $ 'stimulus' money on making America more energy independent and finding alternatives to oil?

Because if the patient who is currently in ICU doesn't recover there won't be anything left to find alternatives for?

:?
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Re: Who Lost Iraq? We Never Had It In the FIrst Place

Postby cassowary » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:13 pm

Because if the patient who is currently in ICU doesn't recover there won't be anything left to find alternatives for?


The stimulus has failed to revive the patient. Unemployment is still at 10%. So he is still in ICU. Spending the money to make America more energy independent would be a better use of the money. But I doubt it will be enough to make America energy independent any more than it could bring down unemployment. Its just that it would be less wasteful.
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