For discussion of David P. Goldman's writings
Hakeem wrote:I have some question and I don't know the answers.
How did the apostles of Jesus pray? Meaning what was the mode of prayer and what did they say in the prayers.
Did Jesus ever lead them in prayer and how? Did any of them ever lead others in prayers?
If Jesus was, say, a Jew, how did he pray to the almighty? Did he practice the Jewish form of prayer?
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
But you know what? Even if Jesus existed, he was a jewish preacher who had nothing to do with Paul's invention. He certainly was not "the Lord" and given that Paul's invention also plagiarized from ancient cults, what reason did jews at that time to believe in all that nonsense?
Pastaneta wrote:But you know what? Even if Jesus existed, he was a jewish preacher who had nothing to do with Paul's invention. He certainly was not "the Lord" and given that Paul's invention also plagiarized from ancient cults, what reason did jews at that time to believe in all that nonsense?
Agreed... But even his existence is doubtful. In this I take Josephus Flavius. From him we know that John the Baptist exists and we know about the Messiah claimants of his time in details. And Jesus was not mentioned. So Christians of later times who notices this discrepancy had to forge the Testimonium Flavianum...
Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Emperor Claudius in 49 CE] expelled them from Rome." (Claudius 5.25.4)
his most recent book, The Resurrection, is published this week.
The Resurrection is the final instalment of Vermes's Jesus trilogy, which began with The Passion and The Nativity. Vermes again adopts his trademark forensic textual analysis to separate fact from myth: "I wanted to explain exactly what the New Testament does tell us about the resurrection. People usually rely on others to interpret the gospels for them and St Paul's assertion of the physical resurrection has become a cornerstone of Christianity for many people. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then faith is rubbish.
"Yet if you look at what Jesus actually said, then you get a different picture. If he did talk about the resurrection, he forgot to write it down; so it's more likely he didn't. And if he did, then why did his resurrection come as such a surprise to the apostles? No one said, 'Of course, Jesus said it would be like this' when his tomb was found to be empty; even Mary Magdalene assumed that someone must have moved the body. Nobody's reactions correspond to the expectation of a resurrection."
Vermes goes on to argue that subsequent sightings of Jesus are best understood as visions in which the apostles felt his charisma working as it had done when he was alive. "Jesus had promised to be with them and he was," he argues. "It's a resurrection of the spirit in the hearts of believers. The idea of an afterlife predates the Christian era and the preaching of eternal life is well attested; a physical resurrection is not essential to a belief in spiritual survival."
This won't thrill the Christian traditionalists, but then Vermes has never been what one might call orthodox. He was born in 1924 in Mako, a small town 200km south-east of Budapest, where his father worked as a journalist, and seven years later his whole family converted to Catholicism.
He is one of the leading scholars in the field of the study of the historical Jesus (see Selected Publications, below) and together with Fergus Millar and Martin Goodman, Vermes was responsible for substantially revising Emil Schurer's three-volume work, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ, Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1973, ISBN 0-567-02242-0, 1979, ISBN 0-567-02243-9, 1986-87. ISBN 0-567-02244-7, ISBN 0-567-09373-5. His An Introduction to the Complete Dead Sea Scrolls, revised edition (2000), is a good study of the collection at Qumran.
He is now Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies and Emeritus Fellow of Wolfson College, Oxford but continues to teach at the Oriental Institute in Oxford. He has edited the Journal of Jewish Studies since 1971, and since 1991 he has been director of the Oxford Forum for Qumran Research at the Oxford Centre for Hebrew and Jewish Studies.
Professor Vermes is a Fellow of the British Academy; a Fellow of the European Academy of Arts, Sciences and Humanities; holder of an Oxford D. Litt. (1988) and of honorary doctorates from the University of Edinburgh (1989), University of Durham (1990), University of Sheffield (1994) and the Central European University of Budapest (2008). He was awarded the Wilhelm Bacher Memorial Medal by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences (1996), the Memorial Medal of the city of Makó, his place of birth (2008) and the keys of the cities of Monroe LA and Natchez MI (2009). He received a vote of congratulation from the U.S. House of Representatives, proposed by the Representative of Louisiana on September 17, 2009.
Vermes describes Jesus as a 1st-century Jewish holy man. Contrary to certain other scholars (such as E. P. Sanders), Vermes concludes that Jesus did not reach out to non-Jews. For example, he attributes positive references to Samaritans in the gospels not to Jesus himself but to early Christian editing. He suggests that, properly understood, the historical Jesus is a figure that Jews should find familiar and attractive. This historical Jesus, however, is so different from the Christ of faith that Christians, says Vermes, may well want to rethink the fundamentals of their faith.
Important works on this topic include Jesus the Jew (1983), which describes Jesus as a thoroughly Jewish Galilean charismatic, and The Gospel of Jesus the Jew (1981), which examines Jewish parallels to Jesus’ teaching.
oao wrote:... Paul's was the one that took for reasons that one can readily discern in his giving his gentile targets what they wanted to hear. ...
CognitiveDistoibance wrote:oao wrote:... Paul's was the one that took for reasons that one can readily discern in his giving his gentile targets what they wanted to hear. ...
Yeah. The gentiles wanted to hear that the Jewish God sent His Son, His Jewish Messiah, born a Jew, to the Jews, to fulfill the Jewish Law, and die a substutionary death for the salvation of all, the Jew first, then the gentile. Yup. Clearly tailored for gentile targets.
As to "objective purpose," there seems to be precious little of that from present day conjecturers, Ehrman included.
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