Cardinal Koch: "Israel Remains the Chosen People"

[oao]

Hakeem,

Meaning, is it recorded how they performed their prayers? Were these prayer sessions in groups, or were these individually performed? Did Jesus team them how to pray and is it recorded?

As mentioned above, there is no record of Jesus's life outside the gospels. And the gospels are not historical records, but theological tools to preach the religion which are unreliable for more than one reason. Again, see Ehrman.

The message is the same for all the mankind, brought to this world by different messengers. And when the messengers have done what God has commanded them to do, they do not stand between man and the almighty.

Nice. But factually wrong.

There ARE different messengers and different messages, often inconsistent, even within one faith. Peoples fought and killed over those differences and still do. Now, given these differences, who decides which messenger/message is correct, on what grounds. Do those interpreters presume to know the mind of god?

One also must ponder an universal, omnipotent, moral god who either sends man diverging/inconsistent messages, or some fake messengers to confuse them, resulting in wars and mass killings.

[CognitiveDistoibance]

Michael and Jeffrey333,

I did not get the answers I was looking for. Perhaps I could elaborate on the questions further.

You realize that there are multitudes of books on christian prayer, right? Hard to boil down the answer to a brief post.

Jesus prayed. Jesus taught the disciples to pray (when asked). The discples prayed. Some of these prayers and instructions are recorded. Most are not, and just refer to prayer. You can browse these verses if you wish to explore this directly:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=pray+OR+prayed+OR+praying+OR+prays+OR+prayer+OR+prayers&t=KJV&csr=9

Is there a reason for your question? Again, if you are truly curious, there is the Bible and tons of books on the subject...

[Michael]

In his 1998 article in Communio “Interreligious Dialogue and Jewish-Christian Relations,” Cardinal Ratzinger, as he then was, called on Chrisitans

to acknowledge the decree of God, who has obviously entrusted Israel with a distinctive mission in the “time of the Gentiles.” The Fathers define this mission in the following way: the Jews must remain as the first
proprietors of Holy Scripture with respect to us, in order to establish a testimony to the world.

Elsewhere, in commenting on the following passage from the Catechism

The Magi's coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations. Their coming means that the pagans can discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and saviour of the world only by turning toward the Jews and receiving from them the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament. The Epiphany shows that the "full number of the nations" now takes its "place in the family of the patriarchs," and acquires "Israelitica dignitas" (are made "worthy of the heritage of Israel").(CCC 528)

He observes

What does all this mean? The mission of Jesus consists in leading the histories of the nations in the community of the history of Abraham, in the history of Israel. His mission is unification, reconciliation, as the Letter to the Ephesians (2:18-22) will then present it. The history of Israel should become the history of all, Abraham's sonship become extended to the 'many.' This course of events has two aspects to it: The nations can enter into the community of the promises of Israel in entering into the community of the one God who now becomes and must become the way of all because there is only one God and because his will is therefore truth for all. Conversely, this means that all nations, without the abolishment of the special mission of Israel, become brothers and receivers of the promises of the chosen people; they become people of God with Israel through adherence to the will of God and through acceptance of the Davidic kingdom.

[Michael]

Hakeem,

Meaning, is it recorded how they performed their prayers? Were these prayer sessions in groups, or were these individually performed? Did Jesus team them how to pray and is it recorded?

As mentioned above, there is no record of Jesus's life outside the gospels. And the gospels are not historical records, but theological tools to preach the religion which are unreliable for more than one reason. Again, see Ehrman.

The message is the same for all the mankind, brought to this world by different messengers. And when the messengers have done what God has commanded them to do, they do not stand between man and the almighty.

Nice. But factually wrong.

There ARE different messengers and different messages, often inconsistent, even within one faith. Peoples fought and killed over those differences and still do. Now, given these differences, who decides which messenger/message is correct, on what grounds. Do those interpreters presume to know the mind of god?

One also must ponder an universal, omnipotent, moral god who either sends man diverging/inconsistent messages, or some fake messengers to confuse them, resulting in wars and mass killings.

Christians have always understood this.

In the controversy between St Gregory of Nyssa and Eunomius. Eunomius, in fact, asserted that, because of revelation, God could be fully grasped in concepts. By contrast, Gregory interprets Trinitarian theology and Christology as mystical theology, as an invitation to an infinite path into the always infinitely greater God. As a matter of fact, Trinitarian theology is apophatic, for it cancels the simple concept of person derived from human experience and, while affirming the divine Logos, at the same time preserves the greater silence from which the Logos comes and to which the Logos refers us.

A thousand years later, in the 15th century, Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa wrote

In the teachings of the wise you do not find diverse faiths, but all have one and the same belief. God as Creator, is triune and one; as infinite, he is neither triune, nor one, nor anything that can be said. For the names that are ascribed to God come from creatures, whereas he himself is ineffable and exalted above everything that can be named and predicated

[oao]

You continue to refer to INTERPRETATIONS and assume that some of those are the "right" ones. Therefore, you ignored the problematics of such a position that I pointed out.

[oao]

You realize that there are multitudes of books on christian prayer, right? Hard to boil down the answer to a brief post.

And how exactly does that answer the question how JESUS prayed? Or are you ASSUMING that those books reflect how he prayed? If so, you can't be serious.

Jesus prayed. Jesus taught the disciples to pray (when asked). The discples prayed. Some of these prayers and instructions are recorded. Most are not, and just refer to prayer.

No kidding? And how do you know this based on anything other than the gospels? And even if you knew, how does that answer the HOW question?

[Karl Fred of Brunswick]

I recall some debates on the old forum centered around the factual truth of some of the old testament, specifically the Exodus, but I don't recall any of those distinguished minds ever doubting that a man by the name of Jesus existed. I've always seen the fact taken for granted even by "unbelievers".

This makes me wonder if this strain of thought isn't marginal.

[Pastaneta]

from The Westminster Confession of Faith 1649

And why do you think that I, a Jew care for that?

Michael has quoted what the Vatican says now... And I don't see any replacement there...

This makes me wonder if this strain of thought isn't marginal.

Well Jews really couldn't care less whether a man named Jesus existed or no... Actually in the Talmud there are some anti-Christian parts where he existed and was a kind of Elmer Gantry... A confidence trickster. But this was written about 1400 years after the fact and after some nasty persecutions...

As I said before what is crucial for Christians couldn't be less important for Jews as Jesus isn't anything to them...

here it is...
http://jewishchristianlit.com//Topics/J ... edoth.html

[CognitiveDistoibance]

You realize that there are multitudes of books on christian prayer, right? Hard to boil down the answer to a brief post.

And how exactly does that answer the question how JESUS prayed?

Hakeem asked much more than just how Jesus prayed. His questions were exceedingly broad, too broad to answer whilst standing on one foot. Ergo, my answer was essentially "Go and learn it."

Or are you ASSUMING that those books reflect how he prayed? If so, you can't be serious.

Yes, I can.

Jesus prayed. Jesus taught the disciples to pray (when asked). The discples prayed. Some of these prayers and instructions are recorded. Most are not, and just refer to prayer.

No kidding? And how do you know this based on anything other than the gospels?

I don't besides the NT. Neither do you, or Erhman. If all historical documents subject to any conjectured agenda bias are to be rejected, well then, you just erased pretty much all of written human history. You're welcome to that...

And even if you knew, how does that answer the HOW question?

Again, the original questions were rather broad. But, just for fun, if I narrow it down to "how JESUS prayed" one must consider:

John 11:41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 “I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.”

This is interesting to me, because while Jesus is formally, publicly and audibly praying in front of other people, the implication is that such formality is not required, and perhaps not the norm for Jesus. (And perhaps, or perhaps not, the norm for christians.)

[CognitiveDistoibance]

...
Well Jews really couldn't care less whether a man named Jesus existed or no... Actually in the Talmud there are some anti-Christian parts where he existed and was a kind of Elmer Gantry... A confidence trickster. But this was written about 1400 years after the fact and after some nasty persecutions...
...

Well, it would seem that a number of folks (not necessarily Jewish) have an inordinant interest in the "or no" fork. Kinda strikes me in the "Methinks [...] doth protest too much" vein.

[Pastaneta]

Well, it would seem that a number of folks (not necessarily Jewish) have an inordinant interest in the "or no" fork. Kinda strikes me in the "Methinks [...] doth protest too much" vein.

Today most Jews couldn't care less. But in the past it was a question of life and death...

[Marcus]

from The Westminster Confession of Faith 1649

And why do you think that I, a Jew care for that?
. . Jews really couldn't care less whether a man named Jesus existed or no...
As I said before what is crucial for Christians couldn't be less important for Jews as Jesus isn't anything to them...

Hey,Pasta, but of course you care . . that's the topic of this entire thread, and don't complain . . you're the one always whining about supersessionism . . I was just trying to let everyone else know what you were whining about.

Too, it must be imagined that more than Jews and Zionists post on this forum.

Lighten up . .

[Pastaneta]

Well I agreed with a poster... I only care about the supercessionist stupidity because it has been the source of mass murder of my people over 2000 years. As simple as that...

[Marcus]

. . I only care about the supercessionist stupidity because it has been the source of mass murder of my people over 2000 years. . .

The victim card is wore out, Pasta . . get a new deck . .

[Jeffrey555]

Hello, Hakeem,
Any response I would write to your questions would be quotations from the New Testament or words based on ideas presented in the New Testament. The New Testament is the best available record we have of Jesus and the activities of the apostles so I suggest you read through it carefully to have your questions answered as best they may two thousand years later. A accessible and accurate translation is the New Kings James Version or the New American Standard. The Reliability of the New Testament by F.F. Bruce presents arguments that what we have in the New Testament is what was written originally with few discrepancies from the original manuscripts and those discrepancies not affecting any key teachings of the New Testament, it also presents arguments that the documents we have were written in the lifetimes of the apostles, are historically accurate, and written by the authors they are ascribed to. I have a very rough paraphrase of something Marin Luther said - "Reason and Logic are whores, they will serve any master", ask the God who created you to lead you to the truth.
Best Wishes

A side note, for those who reject the "penal substitute theory" - a crabbed and limited term for a deep and rich gift - I can only think once you realize the reality of sin in your life, then the thought of Jesus dying for your sin, "being bruised for our transgressions" with "the chastisement for our peace (being) upon him - Isaiah 53 - would make your feet dance and your heart sing. The blood of Christ is not primitive, it is primal and primary for access to God. I am with the the Brazilian voodoo priestess who said "I once worshipped the devil with the blood of chickens and goats, now I worship God with the blood of His Son." The wrath of God is a very real, it being unfashionable and unseemly to modern minds doesn't negate the fact we need the blood of the Lamb for the angel of death to pass over us.