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Azure on "Coming To Terms With Christianity"

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Azure on "Coming To Terms With Christianity"

Postby Spengler » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:34 pm

Azure on "Coming To Terms With Christianity" on the Spengler Blog


by David P. Goldman


The Jerusalem-based quarterly Azure (Techelet in Hebrew) has the unique virtue of appearing simultaneously in Hebrew and English. I have been a steady reader since its inception and strongly recommend it. In the Autumn 2009 issue, Azure's new editor-in-chief Assav Sagiv writes vividly about the need for Jews and Christians to cooperate on matters of urgent mutual concern. The magazine's website has a preview of Sagiv's editorial:
Pope Benedict XVI’s visit to Israel this past May is not likely to be remembered as a landmark event. Nor is it likely to be viewed as a turning point in the history of Jewish-Catholic relations. Sadly, however, it will be remembered as a decidedly less-than-pleasant affair. To be sure, feelings were tense from the outset, with Israeli politicians on both the right and the left openly expressing their dissatisfaction at the pope’s impending visit; Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin went so far as to boycott the official welcoming ceremony at Ben-Gurion Airport. The pope’s much-anticipated speech at Yad Vashem, Israel’s national Holocaust memorial, hardly improved matters, at least for those who sought an express apology for the Holocaust (and didn’t get one).

SNIP

What was overlooked amidst all this animosity and mistrust, however, is the fact that Benedict XVI—the former Joseph Ratzinger—is actually one of the best friends the Jewish people has ever had in Vatican City. On the eve of the pope’s visit, Aviad Kleinberg, a scholar of Christian history and a columnist for the Israeli daily Yediot Aharonot, attempted to remind his readers of this. Ratzinger, he explained,

"was the confidant of Pope John Paul II, and his immense theological authority was a critical aspect of the previous pope’s moves…. John Paul and Ratzinger buried once and for all not only the accusation of the Jews’ murdering the messiah, but the entire theological theory that the Christians replaced the Jews and are now the Chosen People and that the New Testament annuls the Old Testament. The Old Testament is still valid, declared the two, and the Jewish people is still God’s chosen and beloved people."

A few days later, in reaction to what he called an “embarrassing demonstration of tactless and boorish behavior” toward the pope, Kleinberg wrote, “It is particularly obtuse of us to demand of others what we would never demand of ourselves. Try suggesting to any of our rabbis that they should declare what John Paul II and Benedict XVI have declared. For example, that Christians are our young and beloved brethren and that their covenant with the Lord is also intact—‘Excuse me?’ you say. ‘Did we understand you correctly? Give us a break!’”

Indeed, while Catholic leaders of recent times have repeatedly expressed sorrow and even remorse for hundreds of years of antisemitism, the Jewish world has not yet shown a comparable willingness to reconsider its own perception of Christianity. No one, of course, has demanded this of Judaism, for understandable reasons. Ever since Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the fourth century c.e., it was the Jews, the so-called Christ-killers, who were persecuted by the Church, and not the other way around. Today, however, circumstances demand that all established religions reexamine their traditional attitudes toward each other. Christianity, in all of its various denominations, has generally risen to the occasion. Judaism, for its part, has not.

(Emphasis added)

In the Israeli national discourse, Sagiv's essay represents an extraordinary sort of tough-mindedness. Within the Jewish State, where the Catholic presence is tiny (a few hundred Israeli Catholics attend Hebrew-language Church services) and the Arab Christian posture tends towards the extreme fringe of anti-Zionism, self-righteous outrage over past Christian persecution is the path of least resistance. There is nothing to be gained tactically, moreover, by demanding that Jews acknowledge the good will of the Catholic Church, since the Vatican's Middle Eastern policy remains hostage to the small and vulnerable population of Lebanese Maronites. Encircled by Hizbollah, the much-diminished Maronites in communion with Rome could be wiped out any time Hizbollah's masters in Iran give the command. That makes Rome gunshy over the Iranian problem, which most Israelis view as the main existential threat to the State of Israel.

Benedict's unprecedented efforts to draw near to Judaism as a religion were summarized by the Bonn University theologian Karl-Heinz Menke, who argues that His Holiness is the first pope since St. Peter to read the whole of the Gospels as a Jewish work. From a theological standpoint, the Jewish people have had no better friend in the Vatican since the founding of Christianity. There is quite gap between Benedict's theological labors, though, and his inability to get Vatican foreign policy out of a rut.

What shines through the fog of peace--if that is the right phrase--is Benedict's whole-hearted embrace of the continuing Election of Israel. Christians who agree that we still are God's people, whatever our theological differences, are our friends, whatever other issues may arise. My views on the subject run parallel to Assaf Sagiv's, with some differences in emphasis--but to explain these, I would have to present material reserved for Azure subscribers.

Rather than nitpick Sagiv's presentation, I recommend that anyone concerned with the great issues of our time subscribe to his excellent quarterly.

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Re: Azure on

Postby ellens » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:42 pm

Thanks for raising this important issue. The problem, for Jews, in rethinking the nature of the religious relationship between Judaism and Christianity, is like that of a person who lives in a house with a leaky roof. When it is raining, you can't fix the roof, and it is more satisfying, as a palliative, to curse your misfortune. When it is sunny out, other more pressing concerns crowd your mind and you forget the matter until the next rainy day, when you are pleased to curse your misfortune, once again.

Sociologically, there are additional reasons why Jewish-Christian dialogue never seems to go beyond mutual condemnations of past antiSemitism carried out by various churches. The type of Jews who are likely to meet socially - and even marry Christians (or gentiles) - are liberal Jews whose explicit goal is to marginalize the role of religion in contemporary society, and who know and observe next to nothing of their own religion. Nothing they say would have any weight historically or have any religious authenticity, since it would never be recognized by the Orthodox Jewish world. Orthodox Judaism today is increasingly strong and more diverse in its views, than any time in the last 200 years, but has remained for the most part, highly insular and socially unconnected to any Christian interlocutors that matter on these issues.

Because of this unfortunate situation on the Jewish side, especially in Israel, matters move at best, at a snail's pace. I am glad, therefore, to see that David Goldman will be contributing to Azure magazine and writing on this issue for them, as he does for First Things. I don't see any other Jewish writer who has the knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity that is deep enough to handle this sensitive subject, AND the chutzpah to tackle a 2000 year old subject which will define the core elements of the legacy of Western civilization moving forward.
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Re: Azure on

Postby rhapsody » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:22 pm

Indeed it is much better to be friends. But you have to be friends first, and only after that a Christian, a Jew, a Muslem, an Atheist an American, an Israeli, an Iranian, a German and so forth.

Although Pope Benedict made a sweet move, he first is a Pope, then a Catholic, then a Christian, then a German and then finally, somewhere hovering on the event horizon, I'm sure he is a friend too.

A worthy and particularly useful site and in line with Jesus' teaching, ie to 'be as children':

http://www.firstfriends.com

"Christians" and "Jews" as of innocent age can meet anew, unburdened by 2000 years of condensed painful history.

Image

First friends
Friends first.
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Re: Azure on

Postby Ibrahim » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:24 pm

Christianity and Judaism are not theologically compatible, and so much sleight of hand is required to argue otherwise that both religions are neutered in the process.


What this leaves us with, and what isn't unprecedented or unique at all, is cooperation between Christian states and the Jewish state on matters of national interest, or between Christians and Jews on matters of general political interest. The Pope can be friendly toward the Jews not because Christianity and Judaism are somehow compatible as religions, but because they share the same enemies.
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Re: Azure on

Postby Victor » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:55 pm

Ibrahim said,
The Pope can be friendly toward the Jews not because Christianity and Judaism are somehow compatible as religions, but because they share the same enemies.


I agree that rain falls on all of us even if we might think that our Religion is number "ONE" which I believe is not a good excuse to be fighting although "IT" is always easier said than done and we have plenty of evidence of that.

I know that Children of God don't always agree but let's try to follow The Commandment that Our Heavenly Father gave His Children. If we're going to live forever and ever, what's a few millennium years in God's Eyes?

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Re: Azure on

Postby charleston » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:58 pm

Ibrahim wrote:Christianity and Judaism are not theologically compatible, and so much sleight of hand is required to argue otherwise that both religions are neutered in the process.


What this leaves us with, and what isn't unprecedented or unique at all, is cooperation between Christian states and the Jewish state on matters of national interest, or between Christians and Jews on matters of general political interest. The Pope can be friendly toward the Jews not because Christianity and Judaism are somehow compatible as religions, but because they share the same enemies.


Judaism does not require someone become a Jew in order to find salvation or in order for people to please G-d

these are the behaviors (Jews believe) which G-d requires of humankind

Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not worship false gods.
Do not be sexually immoral.
Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
Do not curse God.
Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Judaism HAS NO PROBLEM with other religions....other religions, who believe in aggressive missionary work or dawah, and believe others MUST believe as they do, or must submit

those 'religions' are the problem, and have the problem
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Re: Azure on

Postby PatrickMurphy » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:02 pm

Thank you, David. And thanks, too, to ellens, for your wonderfully insightful response (hopefully, I'll be able to express something you did not already get across).

Over my long absorption in Spengleriana, until the mask came off, I gradually came to the conclusion that Spengler was an English Catholic, essentially Chesterton reincarnated. Imagine my surprise (I know you can) when he turned out to be a New York Jew--Wall Street, to boot!

Still, David is Chesterton for our times. His insight is as helpful to us as GK's was to thoughtful people a century ago (not to mention, for all time).

Christianity and Judaism are like siamese twins that have trouble tolerating each other. The fact that one is 5,000 years old and the other only 2,000, adds to the problem: they did not grow up together. One was old when the other sprouted out of his neck, and the new one feels like he's there to replace his archaic brother. The older one, though, refused to die, or even to acknowledge the legitimacy of the kid now sharing his shoulders. They still have not stopped wrangling over who controls the body.

Who can say anything new about this ancient sibling rivalry? David Goldman does not claim to do so, but he certainly is deft in addressing the inner reality of the thing, and in helping steer the way to a genuine insight that we can all share. This brief article reinforces my confidence in Spengler's enduring role in our lives, and the value we derive from what he shares of his thought life.

Happy Thanksgiving (belated), to all of you. I am truly thankful for this forum. What a gift!
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Re: Azure on

Postby Pastaneta » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:03 pm

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... co_en.html

At the end of this exposition, necessarily all too brief, the main conclusion to be drawn is that the Jewish people and their Sacred Scriptures occupy a very important place in the Christian Bible. Indeed, the Jewish Sacred Scriptures constitute an essential part of the Christian Bible and are present, in a variety of ways, in the other part of the Christian Bible as well. Without the Old Testament, the New Testament would be an incomprehensible book, a plant deprived of its roots and destined to dry up and wither.

The New Testament recognises the divine authority of the Jewish Scriptures and supports itself on this authority. When the New Testament speaks of the “Scriptures” and refers to “that which is written”, it is to the Jewish Scriptures that it refers. It affirms that these Scriptures must of necessity be fulfilled, since they define God's plan which cannot fail to be realised, notwithstanding the obstacles encountered and the human resistance opposing it. To that the New Testament adds that these Scriptures are indeed fulfilled in the life of Jesus, his Passion and resurrection, as well as in the foundation of the Church that is open to all the nations. All of these bind Christians and Jews closely together, for the foremost aspect of scriptural fulfilment is that of accord and continuity. This is fundamental. Inevitably, fulfilment brings discontinuity on certain points, because without it there can be no progress. This discontinuity is a source of disagreements between Christians and Jews, no purpose is served by hiding the fact. But it was wrong, in times past, to unilaterally insist on it to the extent of taking no account of the fundamental continuity.

This continuity has deep roots and manifests itself at many levels. That is why in Christianity the link between Scripture and Tradition is similar to that in Judaism. Jewish methods of exegesis are frequently employed in the New Testament. The Christian canon of the Old Testament owes its formation to the first century Jewish Scriptures. To properly interpret the New Testament, knowledge of the Judaism of this period is often necessary....

Israel's election is made concrete and specific in the Sinai covenant and by the institutions based on it, especially the Law and the Temple. The New Testament is in continuity with this covenant and its institutions. The new covenant foretold by Jeremiah and established in the blood of Jesus has come through the covenant between God and Israel, surpassing the Sinai covenant by a new gift of the Lord that completes and carries forward the original gift. Likewise, “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” (Rm 8:2), which gives an interior dynamism, remedies the weakness (8:3) of the Sinai Law and renders believers capable of living a disinterested love that is the “fulfilment of the Law” (Rm 13:10). As regards the earthly Temple, the New Testament, borrowing terms prepared by the Old Testament, relativises the adequacy of a material edifice as a dwelling place of God (Ac 7:48), and points to a relationship with God where the emphasis is on interiority. In this point, as in many others, it is obvious that the continuity is based on the prophetic movement of the Old Testament.

In the past, the break between the Jewish people and the Church of Christ Jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete. In the light of the Scriptures, this should never have occurred. For a complete break between Church and Synagogue contradicts Sacred Scripture.



If we let the Church speak, I believe the theological affirmations of Ibrahim are shown to be just crass ignorance and prejudice.
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Re: Azure on

Postby Pastaneta » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:02 am

mean that the metaphysical basis of Judaism and Christianity (and Islam) are different. This is what truly separates these religions, not the many laws and concepts that follow as a consequence.


True as Christianity and Judaism are on one side and Islam on another. Christianity and Judaism have one ethic for all, a universal golden rule, while Islam has a dual one: in Christianity and Judaism the whole world is equal... Islam has a dual ethic. Treat the believers as your brothers and the rest as slaves to be exploited. No universal golden rule in Islam...

THis is why the God of Islam isn't the God of the OT and the NT... To quote Spengler

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL02Aa01.html

Allah merely is the apotheosized image of an Oriental despot, emphatically not the Judeo-Christian God of love. Rosenzweig altogether repudiates the notion of Islamic culture. As a caricature, Islam is entirely sterile: "Islam never created an Islamic art, but rather took into its service pre-Islamic art ... The pre-Islamic state, namely the Oriental state in its Byzantine form, made Islam into its state religion; the pre-Islamic spirit of the Koran adopted either pre-Islamic rationalism or mysticism and orthodoxy. In Europe, by contrast, in Christian Europe, there arose something new: Christian art, and a Christian state."...

"the God of Mohammed is a creator who well might not have bothered to create. He displays his power like an Oriental potentate who rules by violence, not by acting according to necessity, not by authorizing the enactment of the law, but rather in his freedom to act arbitrarily. By contrast, it is most characteristic of rabbinic theology that it formulates our concept of the divine power to create in the question as to whether God created the world out of love or out of righteousness."

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Re: Azure on

Postby Ibrahim » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:06 am

Pastaneta wrote:
mean that the metaphysical basis of Judaism and Christianity (and Islam) are different. This is what truly separates these religions, not the many laws and concepts that follow as a consequence.


True as Christianity and Judaism are on one side and Islam on another. Christianity and Judaism have one ethic for all, a universal golden rule, while Islam has a dual one: in Christianity and Judaism the whole world is equal... Islam has a dual ethic. Treat the believers as your brothers and the rest as slaves to be exploited. No universal golden rule in Islam...

THis is why the God of Islam isn't the God of the OT and the NT... To quote Spengler




Your statement in this regard, and Spengler's essay, are obviously wrong. All three religions have a dual ethic separating believers and unbelievers. Jewish law does not apply to Gentiles, and Christian law doesn't apply to non-Christians. Throughout Christian history non-Christians have been killed and enslaved on the basis of not being Christian, and the Jewish people, in the ancient period in which they had their own nation, committed genocide and slavery against other peoples.

So this argument doesn't stand on theology or history, and can be easily dismissed.
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Re: Azure on

Postby G.B. Vico » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:37 am

Ibrahim:

are you serious? have your read any Christian literature? Can you give me any example of dual ethics from the Gospels, or St. Paul or the fathers of the Church or the councils or the Scholastics or the Popes or... anybody?

The fact that many Christians behaved unethically does not mean that Christian ethic is dualistic. See for example, on slavery,
Rodney Stark in http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... -53.0.html.

On the other hand, in the Koran and the Hadith you can find plenty of dualistic ethical statements, to the effects that Muslims and non-Muslims should be treated differently. Indeed, Mohamed himself captured and owned slaves, Jesus, if anything, died like one.
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Re: Azure on

Postby Ibrahim » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:05 pm

G.B. Vico wrote:Ibrahim:

are you serious? have your read any Christian literature? Can you give me any example of dual ethics from the Gospels, or St. Paul or the fathers of the Church or the councils or the Scholastics or the Popes or... anybody?


I was speaking primarily of Christian actions, rather than Christian theology. Though off the top of my head I can think of several examples of important Christian leaders or theologians talking about the different status of non-Christians, though usually only in the sense that they need to be killed. Martin Luther's famous antisemitic writings spring to mind, or the many Popes who advocated crusades against various non-Christians, or Christian sects like the famous Albighensians. What is interesting about crusader theology is that is stated that killing non-Christians was not only not a sin, it was an act which guaranteed salvation.

There is also the long tradition of inter-Christian warfare and killings over heresy, in which one party is claimed to not be real Christians, and wiped out.



On the other hand, in the Koran and the Hadith you can find plenty of dualistic ethical statements, to the effects that Muslims and non-Muslims should be treated differently. Indeed, Mohamed himself captured and owned slaves, Jesus, if anything, died like one.


Christians owned slaves for some 1800 years after the death of Jesus, often justifying slavery on the grounds that the enslaved weren't Christians. The Bible not only permits slavery, but provides ruled for how to take and keep slaves. As does the Quran. Slavery is a part of human history in all religions. The Torah specifically contains more in the way of dualistic ethics than the Christian scriptures, but they are in the same Bible are they not? The ancient Jews made war, committed genocide, and took slaves at God's command, yet their internal law was "thou shalt not kill." It was a common theme of ancient warfare that the laws of the tribe (in this case the Jewish tribes) do not apply to other peoples, hence they could be killed or enslaved at will.
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Re: Azure on

Postby G.B. Vico » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:18 pm

The Vatican? Oh, I am sure you remember "Sublimis Deus" (1537):

The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God's word of Salvation to the people: he inspired his satellites who, to please him, have not hesitated to publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith. We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.
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Re: Azure on

Postby Ibrahim » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:52 pm

G.B. Vico wrote:The Vatican? Oh, I am sure you remember "Sublimis Deus" (1537):

The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God's word of Salvation to the people: he inspired his satellites who, to please him, have not hesitated to publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith. We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.


Unfortunately that is not what actually happened in the Americas. The Indian civilizations were wiped out, the people decimated, and black slaves from African imported as laborers in their place.
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Re: Azure on

Postby G.B. Vico » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:59 pm

Of course, but the point is that happened because Christians blithely ignored the demands of Christian ethics, not because the Gospel commanded (or even allowed) to fight the unbelievers and enslave them.
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