In 2005 I accepted a position at CURE International, an evangelical mission organization. Today I serve as CURE’s director of government and foundation relations. At first blush, my story appears unexceptional—until I add that I am a Catholic. CURE’s motto is “Healing changes everything,” and the organization is devoted to overcoming brokenness on many levels. Although I did ponder the implications of accepting such a position, I must admit I was in no way prepared for the ramifications this job would have on my life. My experience at CURE clearly demonstrates that a shared commitment to seeking God trumps the need for a shared theology. To focus on differences can only cause us to get lost among the weeds.
I grew up during the great Kumbaya revolution in Catholicism that grew out of the Second Vatican Council. My background kept me sheltered from the deep mistrust that existed among some Christian denominations, and especially between some Catholics and evangelicals. Ironically, I finally became aware of these divisions through global humanitarian outreach.
Shortly after I joined CURE, I made my first trip to Africa. This trip included CURE’s annual meeting, a gathering of colleagues from around the world. After a few days I mentioned to some colleagues from Uganda that I was Catholic. I can’t recall why the subject even came up. I will never forget the stunned look in my fellow workers’ eyes. I was told that I couldn’t be Catholic because I was clearly a Christian. Now it was my turn to be stunned! Thus began a conversation that continues to this day—a conversation that has changed our views of one another and strengthened our faith.
My African coworkers asked me about my faith. I quickly realized that as a token Catholic at CURE (there are more of us now), I was not in the best position to correct the false images they had of Catholics. In Uganda I was told that Catholics believe we have to earn our salvation through works. That was news to me because my parents had drilled it into me that I was loved by God before I was born and that I was saved by Christ at Baptism through no actions of my own. Grace is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul states, in Ephesians 2:8, that “by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God.”
Mary and the saints were another contentious topic for my African colleagues. I was told that Catholics worship idols. Another stunned look (mine) and more questions followed. What idols? (Visions of golden calves popped into my head.) Wait, were they talking about Mary and the saints? For the record, Catholics believe that Christ is our only path to the Father. A direct and narrow way leads through the Son to the Father. Even as a child I was taught that Mary and the saints do not offer us a bypass. Mary is a role model. She was chosen before the Word became flesh—chosen by the Father to serve the Son. As the mother of Jesus, she is the spiritual mother of all the faithful. Thus, she should be a unifying figure in Christianity, not a dividing one. In one of the few times Mary’s words are recorded in Scripture, she offers the servants at Cana a simple yet profound path of action: “Do whatever he tells you” (John 2:5).
The misunderstanding about Catholics and their relationship with Mary is unfortunate because Mary as model offers much to the women CURE serves—women often gravely oppressed by cultural norms. Mary’s world, like theirs, was one ruled by men; she was defined by her relationship with her father or husband. Mary was a lowly servant, not just before God, but in her society. Her radical behavior demonstrates that our Christian faith is a call to be radical.
Every day, women in the developing world defy their communities and bring their children to CURE for help. These are mothers who have been told by village leaders that their disabled children are cursed and therefore to be feared. The mothers of such children are encouraged to kill their cursed infants. If they do not, they may be shunned by their villages and divorced by their husbands. These women travel long distances in search of help. These are radical women—women whose lives would be easier if they listened to their communities and abandoned or killed their disabled children. Because of their mothers’ hope, these children are offered hope through healing at CURE.
Is Mary not a role model—maybe even the role model—for these women? Mary and the saints offer us a wide range of examples of how to live a life of faith. To seek the intercession of the saints is not to place faith in them. It is to place faith in the power of prayer to the Father through the Son while recognizing the power of the communion of saints—a communion that includes all Christians, living and dead—to offer prayers to God on our behalf.
I grew up in a liberal Catholic family and was raised on the New Testament. At CURE I have gained a greater appreciation for the Old Testament. I never knew the richness of Isaiah; now I turn to it often. At CURE headquarters our director of spiritual ministries has a vast library of Old Testament resources. I have used it frequently and have widened my horizons accordingly. I have felt particularly inadequate when my evangelical colleagues have questioned the lack of attention given to Bible study in the lives of most Catholics. This I have found hard to refute, as I can’t really say that it is a misconception. Bible study in a formal sense was not part of my religious experience. I do not have the knowledge of Scripture and Biblical history that my evangelical colleagues have. I also think that my experience mirrors that of most Catholics. Our exposure to the Bible outside of Mass, and particularly our exposure to the Old Testament, is limited. Today, many Catholic parishes in the United States have introduced Bible study classes, in part because of motivation from our Protestant brothers and sisters. One hopes that my generation and those that have followed are taking advantage of these parish Scripture classes.
My CURE family in Africa also was concerned because Catholics do the same thing every Sunday. It is true that Catholics have a standard liturgy and ritual. Catholic liturgy is not mere rote, however. There is more change from Mass to Mass than may at first meet the eye. The Scripture readings follow a three-year cycle and change every week. I take great comfort in knowing that millions of Catholics around the world hear the same Scripture readings that I hear each Sunday.
Returning to the question of whether or not the Catholic faith is biblically based, my colleagues in Africa assumed that Catholics believe the pope’s word trumps the Bible. According to Catholic teaching, however, the pope’s authority is biblically based. It is grounded in such passages as Luke 10:16 (“He who hears you hears me”) and Matthew 18:18 (“whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”), and it is not above the authority of the Bible. Furthermore, Catholic doctrine does not hold that popes are without sin. Many people, evangelicals and Catholics alike, confuse papal infallibility with papal sinlessness. Infallibility pertains only to statements of dogma issued by the pope when he is speaking ex cathedra—from the chair of Peter. During the long history of the Church, popes have done this only a handful of times.
In Africa I was asked if I had a personal relationship with Jesus. In truth, I wasn’t really aware of any other kind of relationship with God. Yes, mine is very personal. I can’t speak for all Catholics, but it seems to me that faith always has a personal aspect. While there obviously are nominal Catholics, they don’t define the Church any more than televangelists define the evangelical community.
So: What can Catholics learn from evangelicals? While the Catholic Church has a long tradition of social ministry and social justice, my evangelical colleagues are far more willing and able to share the word of God directly with others. Catholics tend to leave evangelism to the ”professionals.” Missions, until very recently, have been viewed by Catholics as the sole domain of priests, brothers, and nuns. My own experience testifies to the fact that change is beginning. I took a year off from college to volunteer full time in a Catholic outreach program in rural Virginia; it was mission work but was not called so then. My current parish is beginning to introduce mission outreach among the laity; one of my nieces is a youth minister who takes parish kids on outreach trips to Appalachia and Mexico. In these and other ways, Catholics are slowly catching up to the dedication the evangelical community has long shown to mission outreach. Our current pope is a strong advocate for Catholics to embrace this responsibility as a calling to all.
My experience with my CURE family has forced me to learn more about what divides us as Christians. More importantly, however, it has led me to discover the common ground on which we stand: our faith that Christ is King of Kings; that he comes from the Father and is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit; that we are saved by grace; and that God is immeasurably merciful. We come together by living our Christian mandate: to heal the sick, comfort the grieving, and feed the hungry. Living this mandate is our common ground, and in doing this work, we start conversations that are life changing.
As a result of my conversations with my talented and dedicated evangelical colleagues, I am better able to pray with them, to study with them, and to stand hand in hand in the mission field with them. With them, I am much better able to serve God.
Gerardine Luongo is director of government relations at CURE International.
Comments:
The problem is that you are dealing with lay people. However any good Seminary graduate can tell you that the gulf between Catholics and Evangelical Protestants is HUGE. Let me make it very simple.
Christianity + Paganism + Papacy = Catholicism
I hope this helps,
George.
Looking around me as I grew up, in church, in Catholic bookstores, etc., where people had a more emotional involvement with the religion it was with the saints: usually with Mary, sometimes with one's patron saint, sometimes with the saint designated as patron for one's profession. Most people, however, had little emotional involvement with their Catholicism, and as society became more secular, the emphasis in the Catholic parishes I knew shifted from religious to human rights and social justice (which is the focus of most active Catholics in Austria today). Consequently, more conservative and spiritually oriented folks like Vienna's archbishop Christoph Cardinal Schoenborn or Salzburg's Bishop Laun, are viewed as being almost on the "fundamentalist fringe" of the church by the majority of Catholics and certainly by the general public.
The veneration of Mary in particular often crosses the line into adoration, with little objection from the hierarchy and sometimes with their support. When the Pope visited Austria a couple of years ago and visited Austria's famous Marian shrine of Mariazell where Mary is venerated as the "Magna Mater Austriae", people made pilgimage from all over the country, many on foot, at least for the last few kilometers. Some of them did not make it and died from exhaustion and heart attack. During the mass at the Mariazell Basilica the Pope publicly "committed them into the loving hands of the Mother of God". For some time leading up to and during the papal visit to Austria there was serious consideration (and public discussion) of "consecrating the country to the Magna Mater Austriae" -- some Catholics from the Movimenti made the point that this would seriously undermine ecumenical relations in the country, and the Pope then limited himself to commending the country to her intercession.
Are you really surprised that Evangelicals think Catholics, if they actually practice their religion, are guilty of idolatry?
And of course, in Africa and Latin America there are a lot of problems with popular piety where the veneration of the saints merges almost seamlessly into the polytheism of older tribal religiouns, again with little protest from the hierarchy.
So I think you (and most of the other Catholics who interact with Evangelicals, especially on the mission field, and are surprised at how their church is perceived) need to realize that the Catholicism you grew up with in the US does not represent the experience of most Evangelicals with Catholics; even in the US there are immigrant communities where these same problems exist.
Of course you could point to problems with Protestant sects, especially in Africa and Latin America, and you could point to the abuses of the Prosperity movement in the US, but most Evangelicals would repudiate these things just as vigourously as what they perceive as idolatry and other problems in Catholicism.
For now, I'll just say that I was very impressed with CURE and how they take every opportunity to bring the hope of the gospel to poor and stigmatized families.
"Christianity + Paganism + Papacy = Catholicism"
Or is this just the view held by Envangelicals?
George. "
It sure helps me George.
As a former evangelical who has observed a steady stream of evangelical protestant ministers, scripture scholars, and theologians, some on the highest levels of evangelical hierarchies, come into the fullness of the faith, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, these last few years; I was reminded most graciously by your comment, that there is indeed much work to be done in order that "those other sheep of another fold" Jesus talked about with the Father in John 10:16, might be brought home to the ONE Church Christ founded some 2000 years ago.
Your unsophisticated and sophomoric comment that stated
"Christianity + Paganism + Papacy = Catholicism"
is below the dignity, intelligence and charity that exists at First Things. It would be best if you left such unintelligent and silly comments on fundamentalist billboards that our dedicated to self-righteous Christianity.
As far as Gerardine Luongo's article is concerned. It seems she is naive of her own Catholic Faith. My Catholic "experience" has exposed me to a strong understanding of the Sacred Page and devotion to its study by my fellow Catholics.
Thank you,
Marc Dillon
It is clear neither of you is a Theologian. Even in Paul's day many left the faith and would be declared accursed. The cycle of history repeats itself for 'there is nothing new under the sun.'
America has become a land of uneducated sissies unable to rightly divide or stand up for the Word of Truth. Even Cardinal Newman admitted that the Catholic church liberally adopted pagan practices in the 4th and 5th century. So I stand by my equation and add this one.
Judaism + Baal Worship = 70 Years of Captivity
Christianity + Paganism + Papacy = False Gospel and Eternal Separation
Thanks,
Gerald
If we were to adopt his approach, we could say that "Christianity + Islam + Gnosticism=Dispensationalism," but that would be just as silly as his own claims.
Regarding those pagan practices, Mr. Welborn, do you wear a wedding ring, or approve of the wearing of such?
And is it a failure of sympathy on my part, or does this mindset bespeak a certain lack of belief in the power of the Christian message? Not only can it be completely lost for over a millennium, but any adoption of cultural symbols is viewed not as the redemption of those symbols or the triumph of Christianity, but the corruption of Christianity.
George says "Christianity + Paganism + Papacy = Catholicism."
George means "George + lack of knowledge of history + Christianity = George." We can agree to differ but his simple ignorance of history leaves his opinion so underinformed as to be only assaultive, not "helpful."
As the Bible says, ' my people perish for lack of knowledge'. Catholics suffer under the yoke of sacramental fiction and false teaching that they are unable to recognize truth. The Papacy and the Jesuits have blinded their eyes and ears to the truth!
George
Please refrain from polluting this board with your slander. Unless you have some rationale for such accusations (against both the Catholic Church and the commentators) and are willing to bring it forth in support of your theory, you disenfranchise the readers of constructive thought. Vague pronouncements, poorly considered biblical support, name-calling, and underdeveloped evidence (not to mention hijacking -- I use hijacking because you use Cardinal Newman's words against their intent and meaning -- ecclesiastic authority to use against the Church) strikes me as unfit for further discussion.
I will pray you are not consumed.
All- stop responding and maybe he will stop.
The article seems to focus on bringing people together...there is so much common ground...leave the rest to God
great article!
Still, everything's fine--AS LONG AS the print version of First Things remains above the type of "argument" on display here.
Christ's love is not about theology (kinda a waste of time when someone is in the throws of agony) or bickering (an example of nothing better to do).
I commend her "self-less" love for those in pain. She is a Disciple of our Lord and, to me, a witness to to His love for all of us.
Thank you, Ms Luongo, for taking the time to write this insightful article. I hope there is more to come...
Thank you for your article. I myself, am in a similar setting, though I do consider myself blest. I work for Joyce Meyer ministries, who are strong in similar outreaches
What I will say is a similar account. I have learned much from my evangelical brothers and sisters. Perhaps the greatest thing I have learned though, is they have a wonderfully beautiful attachment and trust in the power of prayer. True to the "average" catholic, it might seem overly dramatic, and emotional: over done. Its anything but that.
They have shown me what pure, innocent faith can be. More importantly, I am in a position to truly evangelize, to show the beauty of the Catholic church. Like wise there have been many misunderstandings, particularly about Mary, The Papacy, and saints. My blessing is that I can help to open their minds and hearts to the Beauty and truth of tradition. Many of them either have never met a strong catholic, or are fallen away because they had bad catechesis (IE they see as as very rules oriented, etc)
What we have to remember, is many of these people were former catholics. at the route, all protestants are former catholics, if nothing more then by proxy. The roots of the faith are there. Truly, no one would argue that we are saved by the Cross, and the Cross alone? I think even popes have written as such
Where the debate comes from, is while an evangelical can typical pull scripture passages out of the air, literally, can the Catholic do the same thing? Where the evangelicals are wondering the inner city trying to help people to Christ, the Catholics are closing those parishes, right down the street.
What I think we can learn from evangelicals is fervour, and dedication. They might not have the "fullness of truth" that is the Catholic church, but I think Almighty God might be quicker to give them the proverbial "A" for effort. At the route is a fervant, unashamed love for Jesus Christ, and without that, it doesnt matter what building you walk into, you cannot have true faith, without love of Christ.
Read what it says in Acts 16:15:
"And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us."
It says her "household". Who comprises your "household"? Usually, that means Mom, Dad, old and young. By baptizing infants, the Catholic Church is carrying on what the first believers did here. And God in His Mercy, justifies those babies on behalf of their believing parents. We as Catholics practice the same as the first believers and we are united in our beliefs, unlike protestants.
With every Christian doctrine, protestants have thousands of beliefs since they are so fragmented; there are 20,000 to 30,000 protestant denominations, which present disparate beliefs on the main Christian doctrines. Judging by these wide differences in beliefs, one could assume that the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic; yet we know that He does not teach error, nor does he teach one thing in one place, and another thing somewhere else. So where does the error lie in protestantism? The error began with Luther rejecting Papal authority. You see, protestants don't have a problem with the Pope, they just all individually want to BE him by allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth. The 20,000 to 30, 000 protestant denominations, all on different pages concerning doctrine, expose the error of Sola Scriptura(the "Bible Alone").
The rejection of the leadership of the Catholic Faith, passed on from Peter and the apostles down to the present age, creates another huge problem for protestants: by rejecting Papal authority and teaching, protestants are implying that Jesus is either a liar, or the He is incapable of carrying through on His promises, because Christ said in John 16:13, "But when the Spirit of truth comes, he will lead you into all truth". Therefore, if the church, that Christ founded and that Luther broke away from, somehow fell into errors of doctrinal Truth, than Jesus failed in His claim to lead the into ALL Truth.
The True equation actually looks like this: Apostles + Protection of Holy Spirit Guidance = One True Church based doctrinally on All Truth
It is absolutely sad that so many false statements are made by protestants about the Catholic Faith. Nearly every dogma of protestant faith stands on the reform instituted by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, characters who couldn't even agree on anything themselves. All of the new beliefs they came up with were merely to deny a basic Catholic belief and do the opposite. Eucharist-not real, Mary-ignore and debase her rather than venerate, reconciliation-not needed, priest not needed, go straight to God, sacrifice of the mass-we're killing Jesus! And yet today when the truth is pointed out to these 'believers' they still refute the truth. To me, if you fall for a lie, you have been duped by satan.
The Catholic Church though proclaims that protestant believers can be saved because they do love Jesus, they are on the right road, God bless them. My wish and hope and prayer is that they would open their minds and listen to what the church says, because history and reason back up Catholic Dogma. Protestant beliefs leave many people in danger; consider - no baptism for some, no reconciliation through confession (private confession may not be authentic), no Eucharist, even to the point to deny this teaching is to deny Christ. I fear for them because scripture says only not believing the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, all of the sacraments are carried out by the Holy Spirit and protestants deny the sacraments.
Catholics need to learn their faith better in order to gently and humbly present its facts to protestants and fallen away Catholics. The truth is found in the Catholic Church, something less in the other ways. Protestants know a good deal of scripture, but it is selective, and only easily supports the pre-conceived notions they call basic beliefs. Any scripture that refutes protestant teaching, or supports Catholic teaching is left out of their knowledge base. It is shocking how little they really know when tested.
Yes it is a rough road to go down to connect without deep feelings coming alive. A persons faith is usually embedded in a persons DNA so to speak and getting a person to acknoeldge new facts about christianity they have never heard of or imagined can be very difficult to accept. It is a long term conversation, but it is worth it. I shared the Chaplet of Divine Mercy with a fallen away Catholic woman and she says the prayer has changed her life since she accepted it two years ago. What a joyous emotion to hear her say that.
We know Jesus loves and accepts people who call on him, lets all just keep doing that. May his peace be with you all.
If you look at the new Catholic Catechism, you'll see that although Salvation only comes through Christ, the Catechism all but says that Mary has been given the office of dispensing God's graces. See http://www.catholicfamilyland.org/largepdfs/380-155_Vol%202_web.pdf
Page 549:
3. A third special gift which God gave to the Virgin Mary was that she became the Mother of God and the Mother of the Church. the Blessed Virgin Mary is the collaborator with the Divine word and the holy Spirit in the mighty work of the incarnation, and she also collaborates in the essential role in the work of sanctifying souls. her dignity as the Mother of god and as the Mother of the Church, her role as Mediatrix of all graces, and her own perfect holiness obtain for her a place of singular importance in the sublime work of imitating Christ.
Page 551:
this motherhood of Mary ... did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of advocate, helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.
Lumen Gentium, 62
Page 543:
Mary is also the Mother of Mercy because it is to her that Jesus entrusts his Church and all humanity. at the foot of the Cross, when she accepts John as her son, when she asks, together with Christ, forgiveness from the Father for those who do not know what they do (cf. Lk 23:34), Mary experiences, in perfect docility to the Spirit, the richness and the universality of god’s love, which opens her heart and enables it to embrace the entire human race. thus Mary becomes Mother of each and every one of us, the Mother who obtains for us divine mercy. (section 120)
Page 553:
“turn to Mary frequently in your prayers ‘for never was it known that anyone who fled to her protection, implored her help or sought her intercession was left unaided.’ “as a great sign that has appeared in the heavens, Mary guides and sustains us on our pilgrim way, urging us on to ‘the victory that overcomes the world, our faith’ (cf. revelation 12:1; 1 John 5:4).”
You know what? The above quote and your comments are frightening and terribly misleading! Your entire post shamefully attempts to direct believers AWAY from our Savior. Your purpose as a disciple is to evangelize not to provoke hostility or enmity!
My question to you-If Mary had died immediately after Christ's birth are you seriously saying the Trinity could not/would not dispense grace?
There is a lot that Catholics could learn from evangelicals and converts if they would be willing to do so. Unfortunately, the Kumbaya movement is alive and well in my community and most people are content to be lukewarm Catholics who leave all of the mission work, evangelization, education, and outreach to the priests and religious. So much missed opportunity. It's sad, really. The Catholic Church is a precious jewel but my experience has been that many cradle Catholics view it as just a comfortable old shoe they can slip on that makes them feel good, so long as you don't lace it up too tightly and demand active participation and orthodoxy.
This is so close to home. Actually, I'm going through it with my husband right now. In short; Cradle Catholic forever + Non-Protestant? Baptist who has been re-saved & re-baptized and introduced to JM Carroll's "Trail of Blood" and has a new young preacher that has shown him how the Catholics got it wrong = x. With that being said, even though there has been sadness, anguish, turmoil, confusion, bickering, and more.......I refuse to let the devil poke and prod at our marriage, we will work it out with God at the for-front = x.
This will pass and we will be better Christians because of it. It definitely makes this cradle Catholic want to learn and become so much more engulfed in her Catholic Religion.
Serena you are soooooo right! I live smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt. It's hard to find Catholic allies. My plush neighborhood...no, the hospital that I worked out... no, my close friends....no. Needless to say it has been tough, because those Protestants do know there scripture and will come at you like a spider monkey on Mountain Dew! With that being said....I as a Cradle Catholic (C.C.)have no special privilege and I have failed to educate and practice my religion like I should. Years ago in a class I had a Priest tell me that some converts make the best Catholics. He was right! Don't worry Serena no hard feelings about not liking C.C....I know you would love me once you got to know me. lol.
With my love for my husband, I have "visited" many different types of churches. Merely for support. Of course, I don't get "church" out of it (no offense), but what I did get, is OMGsh, these people are soooo into their church. Or rather praising God. There is a wonderful spirit about some of the worship services I've been too. What's most impressive is the youth support in non-catholic churches. The kids are so involved. They have it right. They are teaching the next generation. I don't know if it's just because I live near Shreveport/Bossier, Louisiana, but all the Catholic Churches are not up to par with the other churches as far as recruiting and keeping people especially young people to stay with the Catholic Church. I personally know with my 24yr old C.C. and 17 yr old C.C....when they were younger, they loved going to VBS or Wed night at the Baptist Church . Why? it was fun! The music was young, the talk was young, the teaching was young..like I said the Protestants do have one up on the Catholics when it comes to engaging our youth. (Ok, this is going to sound so C.C. - my girls have no plans to change their religion. Thank God!) I also have a 15 month old C.C. with a father who wants to share his religion. But the answer is x!
Also, all those thoughts and concerns from the African CURE members are good and strong here in the good ole south of the USA. Believe me when I tell you....there are so many non-truths about the Catholics that have been instilled in the Protestants, its sad and its scary. I think we may be loosing the battle here in the South.
Listen up Catholics!!!!! Tighten up those shoe laces! Embrace our youth groups. Embrace the changes from the Second Vatican Council. Please update the music/band/acoustics. Be a little more enthusiastic or even evangelistic. Heck evangelize. Tithe 10%!!!! The church needs it to do all of this! Spread God's word. Show our faith and religion. Get the children involved. Learn the Bible!! Reach out to our Protestant brothers and sisters. Go to a Protestant church and see and fill the spirit, see how they keep families, individuals and kids so engaged. I have learned that our religion is scripture based, but when I was in the debate with the Protestant, I couldn't give a scriptural answer. Let's get out of that lukewarm state. It is time for all us Catholics to embrace our hotness and get set on fire!
Serena, you are so right, again. The Catholic Church is a precious jewel. I do feel special as a Catholic. I do feel so blessed to finally start to get it and understand the Catholic church. We are not simple, but we are the complete package. Thank you for embracing and loving our Catholic faith. You will not be disappointed! God Bless!
God bless.
If I saved your life, and then keeled over dead, would you kick my body with disgust and stomp off? Would you say that I hadn't really saved your life because God had worked through me, and that therefore you owed me nothing, not even a kind word?
God chose to send us His Son through a specific woman, Mary. He appointed her to do it and she accepted; it was her office.
All graces come to us through the Son, and therefore they all come to us through Mary.
So yeah, unless you refuse to accept the Incarnation of Christ, you really have to reconcile yourself to the fact that you owe Mary bigtime. If you don't want to be resurrected body and soul by a Savior who was true man and true God, then sure, you should insist you owe Mary nothing.
The main point of this is that NO particle of the truth of the Gospel the APostles preached has ever changed. The Holy Spirit has prevented that. It is you George, who pass on false ideas propagated by heretical people that leads souls away from Christ.
Why are you against infant baptism? God's grace is free, we can do nothing to deserve it, so when parents want to usher their children into God's family, assisting their little souls as they are called to do to know God, baptizing braks the chain of original sin, it brings that soul into the family of God. Read John 3 and this tiime don't elide over the words..one must be baptized by water and the spirit.