Dr. Küng:
A decade and a half ago, a former colleague of yours among the younger progressive theologians at Vatican II told me of a friendly warning he had given you at the beginning of the Council’s second session. As this distinguished biblical scholar and proponent of Christian-Jewish reconciliation remembered those heady days, you had taken to driving around Rome in a fire-engine red Mercedes convertible, which your friend presumed had been one fruit of the commercial success of your book, The Council: Reform and Reunion.
This automotive display struck your colleague as imprudent and unnecessarily self-advertising, given that some of your more adventurous opinions, and your talent for what would later be called the sound-bite, were already raising eyebrows and hackles in the Roman Curia. So, as the story was told me, your friend called you aside one day and said, using a French term you both understood, “Hans, you are becoming too evident.”
As the man who single-handedly invented a new global personality-type—the dissident theologian as international media star—you were not, I take it, overly distressed by your friend’s warning. In 1963, you were already determined to cut a singular path for yourself, and you were media-savvy enough to know that a world press obsessed with the man-bites-dog story of the dissenting priest-theologian would give you a megaphone for your views. You were, I take it, unhappy with the late John Paul II for trying to dismantle that story-line by removing your ecclesiastical mandate to teach as a professor of Catholic theology; your subsequent, snarling put-down of Karol Wojtyla’s alleged intellectual inferiority in one volume of your memoirs ranked, until recently, as the low-point of a polemical career in which you have become most evident as a man who can concede little intelligence, decency, or good will in his opponents.
I say “until recently,” however, because your April 16 open letter to the world’s bishops, which I first read in the Irish Times, set new standards for that distinctive form of hatred known as odium theologicum and for mean-spirited condemnation of an old friend who had, on his rise to the papacy, been generous to you while encouraging aspects of your current work.
Before we get to your assault on the integrity of Pope Benedict XVI, however, permit me to observe that your article makes it painfully clear that you have not been paying much attention to the matters on which you pronounce with an air of infallible self-assurance that would bring a blush to the cheek of Pius IX.
You seem blithely indifferent to the doctrinal chaos besetting much of European and North American Protestantism, which has created circumstances in which theologically serious ecumenical dialogue has become gravely imperiled.
You take the most rabid of the Pius XII-baiters at face value, evidently unaware that the weight of recent scholarship is shifting the debate in favor of Pius' courage in defense of European Jewry (whatever one may think of his exercise of prudence).
You misrepresent the effects of Benedict XVI’s 2006 Regensburg Lecture, which you dismiss as having “caricatured” Islam. In fact, the Regensburg Lecture refocused the Catholic-Islamic dialogue on the two issues that complex conversation urgently needs to engage—religious freedom as a fundamental human right that can be known by reason, and the separation of religious and political authority in the twenty-first century state.
You display no comprehension of what actually prevents HIV/AIDS in Africa, and you cling to the tattered myth of “overpopulation” at a moment when fertility rates are dropping around the globe and Europe is entering a demographic winter of its own conscious creation.
You seem oblivious to the scientific evidence underwriting the Church’s defense of the moral status of the human embryo, while falsely charging that the Catholic Church opposes stem-cell research.
Why do you not know these things? You are an obviously intelligent man; you once did groundbreaking work in ecumenical theology. What has happened to you?
What has happened, I suggest, is that you have lost the argument over the meaning and the proper hermeneutics of Vatican II. That explains why you relentlessly pursue your fifty-year quest for a liberal Protestant Catholicism, at precisely the moment when the liberal Protestant project is collapsing from its inherent theological incoherence. And that is why you have now engaged in a vicious smear of another former Vatican II colleague, Joseph Ratzinger. Before addressing that smear, permit me to continue briefly on the hermeneutics of the Council.
While you are not the most theologically accomplished exponent of what Benedict XVI called the “hermeneutics of rupture” in his Christmas 2005 address to the Roman Curia, you are, without doubt, the most internationally visible member of that aging group which continues to argue that the period 1962–1965 marked a decisive trapgate in the history of the Catholic Church: the moment of a new beginning, in which Tradition would be dethroned from its accustomed place as a primary source of theological reflection, to be replaced by a Christianity that increasingly let “the world” set the Church’s agenda (as a motto of the World Council of Churches then put it).
The struggle between this interpretation of the Council, and that advanced by Council fathers like Ratzinger and Henri de Lubac, split the post-conciliar Catholic theological world into warring factions with contending journals: Concilium for you and your progressive colleagues, Communio for those you continue to call “reactionaries.” That the Concilium project became ever more implausible over time—and that a younger generation of theologians, especially in North America, gravitated toward the Communio orbit—could not have been a happy experience for you. And that the Communio project should have decisively shaped the deliberations of the 1985 Extraordinary Synod of Bishops, called by John Paul II to celebrate Vatican II’s achievements and assess its full implementation on the twentieth anniversary of its conclusion, must have been another blow.
Yet I venture to guess that the iron really entered your soul when, on December 22, 2005, the newly elected Pope Benedict XVI—the man whose appointment to the theological faculty at Tübingen you had once helped arrange—addressed the Roman Curia and suggested that the argument was over: and that the conciliar “hermeneutics of reform,” which presumed continuity with the Great Tradition of the Church, had won the day over “the hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture.”
Perhaps, while you and Benedict XVI were drinking beer at Castel Gandolfo in the summer of 2005, you somehow imagined that Ratzinger had changed his mind on this central question. He obviously had not. Why you ever imagined he might accept your view of what an “ongoing renewal of the Church” would involve is, frankly, puzzling. Nor does your analysis of the contemporary Catholic situation become any more plausible when one reads, further along in your latest op-ed broadside, that recent popes have been “autocrats” against the bishops; again, one wonders whether you have been paying sufficient attention. For it seems self-evidently clear that Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have been painfully reluctant—some would say, unfortunately reluctant—to discipline bishops who have shown themselves incompetent or malfeasant and have lost the capacity to teach and lead because of that: a situation many of us hope will change, and change soon, in light of recent controversies.
In a sense, of course, none of your familiar complaints about post-conciliar Catholic life is new. It does, however, seem ever more counterintuitive for someone who truly cares about the future of the Catholic Church as a witness to God’s truth for the world’s salvation to press the line you persistently urge upon us: that a credible Catholicism will tread the same path trod in recent decades by various Protestant communities which, wittingly or not, have followed one or another version of your counsel to a adopt a hermeneutics of rupture with the Great Tradition of Christianity. Still, that is the single-minded stance you have taken since one of your colleagues worried about your becoming too evident; and as that stance has kept you evident, at least on the op-ed pages of newspapers who share your reading of Catholic tradition, I expect it’s too much to expect you to change, or even modify, your views, even if every bit of empirical evidence at hand suggests that the path you propose is the path to oblivion for the churches.
What can be expected, though, is that you comport yourself with a minimum of integrity and elementary decency in the controversies in which you engage. I understand odium theologicum as well as anyone, but I must, in all candor, tell you that you crossed a line that should not have been crossed in your recent article, when you wrote the following:
There is no denying the fact that the worldwide system of covering up sexual crimes committed by clerics was engineered by the Roman Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Cardinal Ratzinger (1981-2005).
That, sir, is not true. I refuse to believe that you knew this to be false and wrote it anyway, for that would mean you had willfully condemned yourself as a liar. But on the assumption that you did not know this sentence to be a tissue of falsehoods, then you are so manifestly ignorant of how competencies over abuse cases were assigned in the Roman Curia prior to Ratzinger’s seizing control of the process and bringing it under CDF’s competence in 2001, then you have forfeited any claim to be taken seriously on this, or indeed any other matter involving the Roman Curia and the central governance of the Catholic Church.
As you perhaps do not know, I have been a vigorous, and I hope responsible, critic of the way abuse cases were (mis)handled by individual bishops and by the authorities in the Curia prior to the late 1990s, when then-Cardinal Ratzinger began to fight for a major change in the handling of these cases. (If you are interested, I refer you to my 2002 book, The Courage To Be Catholic: Crisis, Reform, and the Future of the Church.)
I therefore speak with some assurance of the ground on which I stand when I say that your description of Ratzinger’s role as quoted above is not only ludicrous to anyone familiar with the relevant history, but is belied by the experience of American bishops who consistently found Ratzinger thoughtful, helpful, deeply concerned about the corruption of the priesthood by a small minority of abusers, and distressed by the incompetence or malfeasance of bishops who took the promises of psychotherapy far more seriously than they ought, or lacked the moral courage to confront what had to be confronted.
I recognize that authors do not write the sometimes awful subheads that are put on op-ed pieces. Nonetheless, you authored a piece of vitriol—itself utterly unbecoming a priest, an intellectual, or a gentleman—that permitted the editors of the Irish Times to slug your article: “Pope Benedict has made worse just about everything that is wrong with the Catholic Church and is directly responsible for engineering the global cover-up of child rape perpetrated by priests, according to this open letter to all Catholic bishops.” That grotesque falsification of the truth perhaps demonstrates where odium theologicum can lead a man. But it is nonetheless shameful.
Permit me to suggest that you owe Pope Benedict XVI a public apology, for what, objectively speaking, is a calumny that I pray was informed in part by ignorance (if culpable ignorance). I assure you that I am committed to a thoroughgoing reform of the Roman Curia and the episcopate, projects I described at some length in God’s Choice: Pope Benedict XVI and the Future of the Catholic Church, a copy of which, in German, I shall be happy to send you. But there is no path to true reform in the Church that does not run through the steep and narrow valley of the truth. The truth was butchered in your article in the Irish Times. And that means that you have set back the cause of reform.
With the assurance of my prayers,
George Weigel
George Weigel is Distinguished Senior Fellow of Washington’s Ethics and Public Policy Center, where he holds the William E. Simon Chair in Catholic Studies.
Comments:
Once he was finished with that petty matter, his response to Kung was excellent.
I wonder why George Weigel doesn't even make passing reference to what is perhaps the best recommendation Kung makes, namely:
"With the church in deep crisis, this is my appeal to you, venerable bishops: Put to use the episcopal authority that was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council. In this urgent situation, the eyes of the world turn to you. Innumerable people have lost their trust in the Catholic Church. Only by openly and honestly reckoning with these problems and resolutely carrying out needed reforms can their trust be regained."
The bishops should "use the episcopal authority that was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council" and instill discipline in the clergy. Disobedience to vows of the priesthood and the laws of God is what got us here, so obedience will get us out. How ironic that the disobedient Kung is calling for obedience. Yes, by all means his bishop should use episcopal authority to silence Kung.
Thank you Mr. Weigel, I always enjoy your work.
Anyway, I thought I would introduce a lighter note by contributing a version of a joke that is doing the rounds. "Hans Kung wants to be Pope that's what's wrong." Answer: "Oh no he doesn't because if he does he would have to give up being infallible!"
Kun begins his letter with the apology, "Please excuse the form of an open letter; unfortunately, I have no other way of reaching you."
Really?! The bishops will refuse communications from a world-renowned theologian, participant in Vatican II, and fellow priest? I had one occasion to write to the archbishop of my diocese, yet having no personal relationship with him, and being no priest, I received a response. To claim he has no lines of communication other than an open letter is simply a bold-faced lie.
Some of his exhortations have relevance--such as the call for active participation in the life of the Church--but many decidedly lack a sense of accurate perspective. Clerical sexual abuse is not a greater problem in Catholicism than any other group, religious or otherwise, and countless studies show that to be true. The problem is human sin, not celibacy, and not a "lack of reform" in the Church.
I have witnessed the reforms of the Church in safeguarding children. I have also witnessed in my diocese a renewal of the faith and zeal for the church in teens and young adults. One consequence of that vibrant faith life is a rapid growth in vocations to the priesthood. While the situation in Kun's diocese may reflect the criticisms mentioned in his letter, it is by no means the condition of the universal, worldwide Catholic church.
This is a spot on conclusion with a clarification, some Lutherans believe and teach the divinity of Christ.
Just wonderin' ... Are you all afraid of Kung's last suggestion? No faith that the Holy Spirit will prevail?
"Call for a council: Just as the achievement of liturgical reform, religious freedom, ecumenism and inter-religious dialogue required an ecumenical council, so now a council is needed to solve the dramatically escalating problems calling for reform. In the century before the Reformation, the Council of Constance decreed that councils should be held every five years. Yet the Roman Curia successfully managed to circumvent this ruling. There is no question that the Curia, fearing a limitation of its power, would do everything in its power to prevent a council coming together in the present situation. Thus it is up to you to push through the calling of a council or at least a representative assembly of bishops."
As for answering a letter addressed to bishops, again Weigel is more than justified. Kung wrote that trash not for the bishops, about whom he could care less, but to the rabidly anti-Catholic world of which he, once a servant of Christ, is now obsessively devoted.
Well done, Mr. Weigel!
Kung makes some valid observations, but if wants to hang the blame in the proper place, he'd better look to the reformers of Vatican II. It's that notion of "reform" that has gotten us to where we are today; we certainly don't need more of the same!
The statement about the red convertible is not "petty" as you put it, but sets up the possibility that those who openly defy the Church in ways seemingly against the intellectual strengths of these dissenting theologs are trying to be too "evident." It is a heady thing to be popular among the national and international news media as experts in things 'Catholic'. What other explanation other than malicious intent can be given. Since we wish to err in giving the benefit of the doubt, let's hope that Fr. Kung suffers from a nasty bout of vanity rather than an insidious streak of malice. I think Mr. Weigel, though provocative, has been rather gracious. Peace, brother!
As a Catholic in Scotland the clarion call to deepen our love for our mother the Church and the essential role of the Papacy in this matter is welcome
R-ight.
This overblown retort betrays the same out-of-touch elite factor evoked above.
Kung doesn't deserve a retort. But nor does JPII deserve sainthood, or the current hierarchy such an indignant over-defense as scribbled by Weigel. Let Rome man up and tend to its house and its flock. Is Kung any grosser a caricature than Fr. Pfleger? No, but the Church just participated in his grand award in Chicago. It sure looks like nice words and limp-wristed church governance as usual.
And Mr. Weigel is just the man to provide it!
Up next? How about the anarchist feminist nuns like "Sister" Carol Keenan!
Who here is afraid of a new Ecumenical Council?
Not afraid, then why not call for one? Why oppose one?
Be not afraid.
I found it difficult to catch every pellet in that scatter-shot response. Please help me out if I missed one: Weigel is an elitist. JP II does not deserve sainthood. Kung does not deserve a retort, especially an overblown elitist one that was scribbled by a limp wrist who should man up…. Which has something to do with a grand church award to Fr. Pfleger? Did I miss something?
Respectfully,
PeteG
As for "nobody 'portant", who scolds Mr Weigel for failing to recognise the extent of Fr Maciel's wickedness, he/she is clearly correct. I would like to ask, however, whether he has never been mistaken in the character of a friend, an acquaintance, or a leader in whom he has placed his trust. Fr Maciel appears to have been a very appealing man (to some people; I confess I never liked the sound of him), and deceived many good men and women whose judgment was otherwise sound.
He is our very own Sal Maglie!
as have Fr. Kung's defenders here.
The Exorcist for Rome said that Satan is in the Vatican, the Pope needs to combat Satan by turning the light on all all aspects concerning each specific pedophile priest in order to begin to heal the wound that is with in the Church. There needs to be a cleansing-not a whitewash. It appears that the Vatican is a whitewashed tomb.
own intellect...and pride! Long live the Pope!
Please, no! We're just now starting to show signs of recovery from the chaos and confusion that ensued from the last council.
Let's not start all over.
I submit that you didn't read a word of Weigel's piece. If so, you are ignorant of the facts. If you did read it, you are guilty of lies. Which is it?
One can almost understand the hate speech of ardent atheists and anti-Papists like Dawkins and Hitchens or the N.Y.Times and Vanity Fair. Those that fear Roman Catholicism, hate it with a vengeance.
For a learned man like Hans Kung, a supposed theologian, his apparent profound animosity seems to be something akin to a personal vendetta. Has he not yet forgiven Pope Benedict for his Motu Proprio, "Summorum Pontificum"?
He is not a topic of conversation now for those rising and will decline in 10 more years, fashion, theological or otherwise, being what it is.
While his anti-legacy of thought my linger like a whiff of old, under shoveled, cat litter box, Dr. Kung will be barely a footnote in a few years.
Though I wouldn't mind having that car!
No more democracy, ever, is obviously the solution. Wow.
Well. I'll opine that this is exactly the kind of undemocratic, fearful attitude that is dooming the Church.
Why no faith in the Holy Spirit?
He wants, at the bottom of all of his requests, to have a fully human church with a fully human Christ at its head. He has no use for a mythological god-man who may or may not have existed. There is something to be said for this point of view.
Although I am certainly no expert on any level of theology or social anthropology I suspect that the days are over when Catholics needs some sort of Hebrew spiritual Hercules to get them through life. What they need is an example set by another human being.
Do you honestly believe he is the only one among them who feels this way? Or do you realize that he may be the ONLY honest one among them.
Setting aside Weigel for a moment, I fail to see the reason for calling an ecumenical council. Would its sole purpose be to streamline the process for removing abusive priests from the ministry? Or would it try to make the Church more "democratic"? The former is insufficient grounds for calling a council, and the latter will simply never happen, as the Church works to bring about the Kingdom (and not the Democratic Republic) of God.
We should all have faith in the Holy Spirit, for He has brought and will continue to bring the Church safely through the tides of time. However, that faith does not entitle us to call councils willy-nilly to solve every problem the Church faces. After all, that's why we have the bishops (themselves chosen by the Spirit to lead the Church).
No need for "wow," since the first part of the statement (cf. Balaam's Ass) is true: the Church is not a "democracy" but a monarchy, or, better, a theocracy. Nor is there any lack of "faith in the Holy Spirit," since it is the Holy Spirit that guarantees the infallibility of the Church and the pope (when speaking ex cathedra), often overruling the pet ideas of those who follow another "spirit," the Zeitgeist -- a good example of which of the final and irrevocable condemnation of the fantasy of "Women's 'Ordination'" by the late Pope John Paul II in 1994.
What "can be said for this point of view" is that it is the position of the Unitarian-Universalist Association, and increasingly in practice that of American "mainline" denominations, and notably the Episcopal Church -- and of all those "religionists" who take the Zeitgeist for the Heilig Geist. It is not, however, Christianity, and certainly not the Faith of the Catholic Church. Those Catholics who want to "have a fully human church with a fully human Christ at its head" can easily join the UUs or the TECites, and realize their fond hopes. I, however, would not want to join a church that has some long-dead-and-gone sage as its head, whether that sage be an imaginary Jesus, Plato, Rousseau or H. Ron Hubbard.
After every big council in the past, all kinds of stuff hit the fan for forty or fifty years, both with people trying to implement stuff and people revolting against having the theology or new rules categorically defined. So basically, you're not going to call a council unless the problems are so bad that you're willing to deal with forty or fifty years of chaos and schism and craziness.
Now, at least Vatican II wasn't pronouncing infallibly on anything big theological, so we mostly haven't had street riots over the truth about the Virgin Mary or anything like that. But we've sure as heck had liturgical and moral and doctrinal chaos almost worthy of those early Byzantine times.
Now things are settling down, and what the Council Fathers actually wrote is finally being implemented. (For example, people are finally starting to learn Gregorian chant, as Vatican II strongly mandated.) Most of these things that the Council Fathers actually wrote are not to Kueng's taste, which was why Kueng and his buddies at the time were so concerned to misrepresent the documents and discussions to the media. (And of course, his positions now are a heck of a lot more radical and dissenting than they were in 1965. If he'd ever stopped pushing the envelope out further, he wouldn't have been news.)
So what Kueng is saying is not "I want the bishops to get on the stick", but "I want a Council because the dust is clearing way too much for my taste, and now people can see that, back then, I didn't really get what I wanted."
I will agree that, had the bishops gotten on the stick a bit more (and a lot earlier), Kueng would have had to work harder to get in the newspaper with this sort of letter.
But ultimately, Kueng's libelous (possibly legally so?) statement about B16 makes the rest of his argument valueless. It's like starting an anti-Mafia talk by saying all current anti-Mafia prosecutors and police are rapists and bank robbers, or saying that ichthyologists are anti-fish.
I don't get up at 6:30 AM on Sunday morning for SomeDude.
I sure as heck am not going to die for the truth of some supposedly Catholic Church that isn't catholic, isn't cosmic, doesn't have ultimate answers, and basically is just a repository of interesting moral tales.
Nobody anywhere has ever wanted to join the Church of Aesop.
(If that's what you really wanted, you wouldn't bother to post here. You'd be over at Google Books reading the Seven Wise Men, or Kalila and Dimna.)
If they are looking for a church that has no doctrine of infallibility, no pope, one that ordains married men, married women, divorced men, divorced women, gay men, and lesbian women, one that votes on it's pastors, that votes on its national leaders, that votes (regularly) on it's theology, one that approves of birth control, embrionic stem-cell therapy, and are "reluctantly pro-choice" on abortion, one who has a lay board of "overseers," that has congregations that are autonomous (i.e. free from centralized control in theology and praxis) and "led by the Spirit," a church that is constantly questioning, challenging, and speaking "truth to power;" if they're looking for a church like that, there are plenty to choose from. They better do it quickly though, because most of them are loosing 2% to 2.5% of their parishioners annually. They'll be "out of business," to use that lofty secular jargon that they seem to love so much, in 40 years.
Kung knows that once he leaves the priesthood, or the Church, no one will give a damn what he has to say. He's got to hang in there and snipe from within. It may afford him a new eco-friendly sports car!
Don Guilliermo - those priests are extremely dangerous and unfortunately many remain.
Please take the advice of my favorite Catholic author Donna Steichen who wrote in "Ungoldly Rage" chronically the anarchist, feminist attacks on the church that traditional Catholics must "Be prepared to be unpopular."
Find others of like mind and speak out. Show him the Catechism and call him out on it - if possible get him on tape and report him to your Archbishop. If you get no response from your Archbishop - go higher. But know this - you will be chastised and mocked - just as our Lord forewarned. Those active homosexuals have found a home - and they're not going to let you take it from them.
If nothing else, you must correct the errors with your kids and any other youth who will listen. let them know he is wrong and that the church has many more like him. I signed up as a CCD teacher for my son’s confirmation class in order to “undo” the damage and the errors they were teaching. You would be astonished at what they were teaching!
For now this is the fight we must have because the Church has been infiltrated by the enemy – of that there is no doubt.
Do you really think Gregorian Chant is all that important, marking it as the only listed accomplishment of V2?
I mean I like it and it's a good thing but c'mon there were more important issues.
I don't know or claim to know what's in Kung's heart-of-hearts as to why he wants a new council.
But I'd like to see one because I trust and have faith that through the Holy Spirit it will make things better for us all, even if there's a little or a lot of dust raised. Seems a lot of dust is being raised even without one. And seems like a good dusting and cleaning is in order anyway. Of course, we prolly disagree what needs the cleaning the most and how and to what end and . . .
"Well. I'll opine that this is exactly the kind of undemocratic, fearful attitude that is dooming the Church.
"Why no faith in the Holy Spirit? "
I definitely agree. It was an undemocratic attitude that caused various bishops and priests to turn down out requests for a Latin mass--and to kick out seminarians who favored Latin liturgy.
It was also undemocratic to shove down everyone's throat the Protestantized version of the mass and the priesthood.
1. It is sheer ignorance of Scripture to speak of a mythological God-man. NB: Logos is opposed to mythos.
2. I know of no doctrine that says that Christ is not fully human.
3. Theology is not pragmatic. It is primarily concerned with the nature God, and secondarily with man.
Like leisure suits and disco music, Kung's work is out of date.
What were the listed accomplishments of V2?
BTW, Greg Chant existed long before VatII, so it cannot be considered an accomplishment of the Council.
"Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz".
Indeed Hans Kung must make amends, because he is far from the spirit of the Gospel, that says "Go sell everything you have and give the money to the poor, then come follow me".
I see a lot of closed Catholic parishes.
I know a lot of former and lapsing Catholics.
The number of converts doesn't come close to reversing a precipitous trend.
But if you are happy with Catholicism becoming a doctrinally corrrect (DC) small sect, then it seems you Weigelmeisters are moving in the right direction. You can rejoice. Who needs dem cafeteria catholics who muddy up the waters, anyhoo?
"If the Church isn't who she says she is": That's an interesting statement. Metaphorical, bridesmaid of Christ and all that, heh? But who are these shes? Last I heard, they were being investigated or largely ignored as a matter of course.
Has the Church sold everything it has and given its money to the poor? Or how 'bout even those fancy red glittery shoes worn by the Pope on occasion?
As for Kung, as noted above, he lives rather modestly these days.
So, Springsteen-like, he was liken unto a hot rodder of sorts during his tempestuous youth. You?
Wrong. I never criticized Kung for being out of date. I merely pointed it out.
For example, much of his theology is based on his acceptance of the conclusions of a certain type Scriptural form criticism that has since been discarded because it is based on too many false assumptions. Among those assumptions were that Low Christology was early, and High Christology was late (Raymond Brown himself jettisoned that).
Also that simpler texts in one Gospel were written before similar complex texts in another Gospel. This error fails to consider differences in the personality of authors. Further, anyone familiar with the texts of St Thomas knows when he deals with a topic in the Summa Theologiae, his texts are often much more simple than what is found in his Commentary on the Sentences, which had been composed years earlier.
Two points:
1. The structure of the Church is such that these sex scandals are to be handled by the local bishop or the religious institute. Both have the juridical authority to remove a priest immediately from any pastoral contact.
Laicization, however, is reserved to Rome.
2. I went to Rome in 1986 and finally left in 1997. It was well known then that Cardinal Ratzinger was the lone wolf in recognizing and wanting to address the problems in the Church. In fact, someone once told me of a meeting a few hours before that included Cardinal Ratzinger and Abp Re (then in Sec of State). When the mention was made of severe problems in the Church, Abp Re basically said there were no problems. My friend told me that Cardinal Ratzinger's response was to roll his eyes and shake his head.
Although they had lunch after the conclave, I think it's been years since there was any personal relationship between the two.
While lodging with Kung and John Courtney Murray et al. at Villanovoa in Rome in 1965, Hans seemed to me no more a dissident that Thomas Aquinas was judged some centuries before or JCM at that time. Weigle needs more time to study.
In what way was St Thomas considered a dissident in his lifetime?
The Catholic Church feeds, clothes, provides medical treatments and educates more people than any organization/church on the face of the earth so your suggestion to sell everything and give to the poor is a cheap shot. All those beautiful works of art the Church owns are there for anyone to enjoy, no matter what their financial status instead of being locked up in someone's private collection.
And the point about the car was that he was getting arrogant about his fame--always a dangerous thing in any context--and it's gotten him in the end. Well, his end isn't here yet, so I will pray that he will repent before he faces his eternity.
si tacuisses philosophus mansisses...
Maybe beining educated in the second class theological school/seminary and not being ordain is not completely enouth to take any part in such sofisticated discusion? The talent in writing and editing even best-selling books does not gurantee the real value of the subject knowledge.
So you like(d) leisure suits and disco music? Did Frank Zappa write that song with you in mind? ;) Yowza, yowza, yowza... The beat goes on and I'm so woooooo-ahhhh...
Many in my parish see me coming and roll their eyes. Others whisper in my ear "thank you for speaking up!" And every moment in between I pray the Lord will end this persecution and refill our convents and rectories with good and holy Catholics who will restore the American Church to its former glory.
It will happen - He will remove the enemy from our midst and restore order. It's His Church - and He did promise that they would never win against it. I believe!
The point was that they are out of date, not whether I liked them.
FYI, I liked some disco music and never wore a leisure suit.
Frank Zappa? Thanks but no thanks. Miles Davis, however, is another matter.
My intent was to say this:
Kung is an undeniable heretic. But we all know that and have known that. He is a faded 60s star. To screech about that right now seems like an attempt to feign indignation in oblivion of more pressing concerns. The Vatican refuses to discipline clergy to any real effect. Weigel is worried about Kung? Sort of a smokescreen. I love B16, but for decades Rome has refused to make anything happen in terms of truly reigning in dissent and abuse. Kung is only one spectacle. Pfleger is left to rattle. JPII refused to touch the sex abuse crisis. Which such junk going on, to say, "You, sir, are obviously vain per your red corvette.." Come on! How about simply saying: "I wish Rome hadn't created an excuse for all this ongoing modernism, but it has. Let's insist they clean up their house. After all, Rome could excommunicate Kung, couldn't it. Yeah, we'll all hold our breath.
The point about Kung's work being out of date is that he portrays himself as someone who is up to date.
Personally, I prefer being referred to as out of date.
Now, there is a lot where I disagree with Kueng, I do not like his way of arguing, and I agree with the essence of what Weigel wrote. Unfortunately, Weigel's letter is not written well (incompetence in communication does not seem to be restricted to the curia). There is too much expression of personal adversarity and there are far far too many words. All this could have been said crisp, clear, and to the point. It's a pity our academic theologian here seems to think inflations of words and stories will make his paper more valuable. I hope it will not get printed in Ireland the way it is ... there is much room for improvement.
What's the "American Church"? Never heard of it.
The only true Church I know is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of our Credo --- Catholic, not regional or national!!
http://www.communio-icr.com/articles/balthasar7-1.html
Laicization is a weighty issue and any request should be deeply analyzed before being granted. Taking a priest out of ministry, silencing a theologian if he can't teach the Catholic faith truthfully - stop their duties. But you can't stop their priesthood the same way.
Fr. John Courtney Murray succeeded in making the case for free choice of religion at Vatican II , though he hardly made a case for the heresy of liberal Protestantism's cheap grace.
Men like Kung and Carroll fitted the foolishness of the Sixties and Seventies, though by now they have been found out. John Paul II and Benedict XVI are properly seen as most wise, careful, and, deep down, progressive leaders of the Church. Truth to be told, Kung at present is a cipher, frantically trying to be relevant with this most recent of his absurdities. Benedict, quite properly will ignore, as he has indeed become rather evident.
I recall one Sunday when he returned from a adult ed. class in a blue collar community and scoffed at what "dumb excreta” (the vulgar English of my first attempt was censored; perhaps the lovers of Latin at First Things will find this more to their leaning!) the people were!
It struck me as an outrageous comment toward sincere people with little time to pursue the niceties of theory. His condescension then was memorable. He'll deny it! Since he was passing along an anecdote about Fr. Kung, I though I’d share mine of GW.
He had even then a flippant air, and therefore, will have no memory of another of his many casual, caustic, castoff comments. His anecdote about Kung's red car is less troubling than my anecdote about his superior air to hard working blue-collar folk.
GW was liberal then before he fell in love with Capitalism.
He has continued this condescending attitude ever since, albeit as a right-wing conservative attacking anyone, anything that does fit his narrow Procrustean right-wing thinking of things economic and theological.
Ironic, he is defending B16 after lambasting him for his social critique, labeling it some form of a platypus construct! (Correct comment is documented elsewhere).
GW wants the RC church to align totally with the Republican Party and Capitalism.
For awhile he was succeeding but the clerical sex abuse scandal which he identified early on as solely an American aberration will prevent the consummation of the marriage.
B16 and the hierarchy and GW's spinmeister defense more than the priest pedophiles have been the biggest evangelizers for non belief!
If this smacks of an "ad hominem" statement, I was inspired by GW in his diatribe against the person of Hans Kung!
Fr. Emmett Coyne
That said, he's not important enough to defrock. Let him spout off. From the standpoint of a post VII Catholic, his presentation looks rather sad. He spent his entire life in pursuit of something that has ultimately failed miserably. And it did so while he was still alive to see it. Seeing it all, his pride won't allow him to admit he was wrong. I think folks overestimate his influence, particularly on younger Catholics.
Pray for him. He needs it (as do we all). We've got more important work to do than worry about Fr. Kung.
Well, Anonymous, I believe that if Fr. Kung's letter had been truly addressed to the Bishops (private letter) and not the open (meant to be read by all) letter printed in an opinion page of a secular newspaper, Mr. Weigel would not have had to respond. As is sits, Fr. Kung's letter was an OPEN attack on Holy Mother Church and on His Holliness Pope Benedict XVI and as such requires and open rebuttal. Mr. Weigel was only doing what all of us need to do more often. We need to be informed, charitable, yet unflinching in our defence of Our Lord and His Church.
Vatican II and the acknowledgement that all of the faithful belong to the priesthood of Christ, is being ignored by those in power. Why is this?
Are the people being served when they do not even feel that they are given a voice by their Church? Is there such fear of the freedom of the Holy Spirit that the leaders in our Church feel the need to control all that they can?
It was only when the early Church became the state religion in Rome in about 300AD, that lay people began to be ignored in our Church, and it continues to this day. Do you all think that Jesus would feel comfortable as the Pope in Rome, if He returned today?
I do not think Jesus would feel comfortable among us as we fight among ourselves about what Catholicism means or should mean and who is more Catholic. In fact, our present Pope Benedict has said that Martin Luther was right about justification and the abuses of selling of indulgences. The Pope admits that our Church was wrong to call Luther a heretic and to force him, as a dedicated monk, to leave the Church that he loved. As God turns everything to the good for those who love Him, it is my belief that the Protestants have added a richness to Christianity that we would not have today, if all Christians had been controlled by Rome over these centuries since the Protestant Reformation.
I believe that Pope Benedict and Fr Hans Kung and Mr Weigel love the Roman Catholic Church and are sad about how the present child sex abuse crisis has been handled by the Church. Rather than pointing fingers at one another, I think it would be wise to follow the decision made by the Council of Constance to have a Council every 5 years, as revealed to us by Theologian Hans Kung. There are many issues that need to be discussed out in the open and with the laity being involved.
I pray that we will have a Council in the next year or two that will take place in Galilee, not Rome!
As a Church, we need to return to our roots and to reflect on and try to live, with the help of the Holy Spirit, what Jesus taught in His simple message - to love God and to love one another in God.
Jesus died for everyone in the world. God loves everyone, not only Catholics! We need to become witnesses of God's love to everyone in this world of ours for God's glory!
May we gain Gods grace by fearlessly questioning such a dreadful leadership that listens to the People of God with deadened ear.
R. Dennis Porch, MD
http://cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm
Unfortunately, we've eyed popes, bishops, church as our priority and given our loyalty - misplaced! That's why we're at the most critical juncture of 2000 years of Christianity.
In this cris is an opportunity for a New Pentecost where the Spriit breaks through our barricades!
Your obvious contempt for ordained, celibate men betrays your error. Modernism has you enthral but you're not alone in that. You should thank God for these special men we call priests. The very few who committed these atrocities were not men. The vast majority of the brave, celibate, and ordained who are a gift to us from God most certainly are men, in the truest sense of the word.
Which is not what I mean to say at all. This business about another council: well, the current obsession in the west is with sex abuse, ironic given the intensely sexualized environment we live in, but the fact before us. Of course, aberrant sexuality is yet another form of materialism, and is unlikely to abate anytime soon. What is likely is that the media will move on to some other fixation that demands a council, and so the bishops will spend all their time in Rome trying to make the New York Times happy; ok, not happy, but at least keep them too busy to keep lying about us.
Vatican III has long been a fantasy of liberal Catholics, who seem to think it will "finish" the (imagined) work of Vatican II and transform us into a liberal protestant church. That's highly unlikely, given that a Council has nothing to do with "democracy". It's a gathering of bishops, for heaven's sake, not a parliament of elected representative, Most likely a council would be a media circus, with every special interest group prancing around St. Peter's square, demanding attention to their personal obsession, all in the name of Justice. Demonstrators might even turn violent and give the media something else to blame on the bad old Vatican.
P.S. Dr Rosemary Rejoice!!! The greatest person revered in the Catholic Church was (and is) a woman, a lay person, and not in the hierarchy... her name was Mary and if you follow her footsteps you too will be blessed! How lovely your name already has both Rose and Mary may your heart and soul blossom in truth and faith!
I hope it's been sent for publishing in the Irish Times whereH Kung's letter first appeared.
Mobs! Another French Revolution! Blood in the streets.
But then, it's just "a gathering of bishops." Imagine them talking with one another.
And wouldn't there be occasions for them to solicit input from and consult with laity during such a gathering?
No, no, no! That can't be countenanced!
Sorry, but such responses seem altogether cowardly to me.
Nobody anywhere has ever wanted to join the Church of Aesop.
(If that's what you really wanted, you wouldn't bother to post here. You'd be over
at Google Books reading the Seven Wise Men, or Kalila and Dimna.)
Not to mention Deepak Chopra :)
As a physician and as a woman, I have been saddened by the polarity of the sexes promoted by "Holy Mother Church".
I have met many fine celibate priests in my life. However, celibacy should be a free choice.
Many priests would have much richer lives and be able to give more to their people if they were allowed to experience the love of a woman and to have children. Why should these wonderful men be denied that by our Church?
The promotion of celibacy in the RCC can be a method by which "Holy Mother Church" controls lives.
The Kingdom of God can be just as well served by those who are married as well as by those who are single. The availability might differ and yet one can be even more in love with God, when one also experiences the tangible love of another human being.
We need more balance in our Church.
Celibate men bring their perspective. Celibate women bring their perspective. Married women and men bring their perspectives. The single, widowed, or divorced bring other perspectives. Our Church needs everyone's perspective.
This brings me back to what Fr. Kung requested in his letter to the Bishops around the world. Fr. Kung reminded us that the Council of Constance decided on having a Council every 5 years for the good of the Church.
I pray that we will have such a Council in the next year or two where all Catholics will be invited as members of the priesthood of Christ.
The Council should be in Galilee where Jesus walked and taught and healed.
To me, Rome reflects wealth and power and control. Galilee represents the simplicity of the life of Jesus and His humility and servanthood.
Jesus worked with women and men, married and single, saints and sinners.
I believe that our present Church could become more responsive to the needs of its
members and to the world, if we do as Fr. Kung suggests, and hold a Council in Galilee every 5 years. This would help us get back to basics as the People of God and as faithful followers of Jesus.
I think we need to be inclusive and welcome fellow Christians. Jesus did not create the divisions in Christianity. We did it all by ourselves!
The Holy Land is the center for Moslems, Jews, and Christians. Historically we all came from Abraham. I pray that we can all come together in the Holy Land to give our God glory and thank Him for our diversity in Him. All other believers and non believers are welcome in God's tent as well!
As you reflect and pray on what I have written, I hope more and more of you will come to a similar desire for us to have a Council every 5 years in Galilee where it all began, and where we can rethink what we are doing, and how we can give greater glory to our Heavenly Creator and Father, to Jesus, our Lord and Savior, and to the Holy Spirit, our Teacher and Advocate.
After all is said and done, giving God glory for the gift of our lives is what it is all about!
As to the venomous calls for trials of the pope: He doesn't have to defend himself against charges of covering up child abuse, because he didn't cover up child abuse. The evidence is clear and abundant. Your saying something different does not make it different.
Celbarcy is definitely NOT the problem or the cause of the sexual abuse (of prodominatly teenage boys in the population of priests).
Terry Miller
Matthew 10
34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household.
37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.
Pity.
George, you are a man of courage and integrity. In the end, I hope that John Paul II is beatified/canonized during the present pontificate and that Papa Ratzinger himself one day will be canonized as well. God knows that these two humble "servants of the servants of God" have demonstrated heroic virtue to lead the Church at a time when the servants of the People of God puff themselves up and act like demi-gods.
On April 17, 2010, Hans Kung wrote to Catholic bishops everywhere via an open public letter distributed around the world. He explains his reason for writing the letter this way: “I am motivated by my profound concern for our Church, which now finds itself in the worst credibility crisis since the Reformation.” He articulates clearly why he thinks this credibility crisis exists. But what must be noted is what he does not say: that the Church has had a severe credibility crisis before and since the Reformation because of its ongoing support for, and endorsement of, the killing and maiming of hundreds of millions of human beings by Christians who thought—because they were so taught by the Church—that this was acceptable behavior for a Baptized Christian, that doing these things was consistent with being a faithful follower of Jesus. This credibility crisis is ignored, even though Christians by the tens of millions to this very second are perpetrating these things, promoting these things, and justifying them as faithful discipleship? Hans Kung never even hints at nor suggests that there is, or should be, a crisis of Church credibility over this.
That he does not is, however, consistent with just about every “reform” movement and reformer in the Church—right, left, and middle—before, during, and after the so-called Reformation. Reforming the Church so that the Church teaches what Jesus taught about violence and enmity is not the reform that the overwhelming majority of reformers want—be they Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or Evangelical. It is not the reform that Church hierarchs or clerics want, nor is it the reform that Church laity want. They do not even want to raise it as the possibility in their “reform” agendas and—speaking from firsthand experience—they will not do so even when requested to do so with solid scholarly and spiritual reasons presented to bolster the request.
The discordance between what Jesus teaches and what the Church teaches on violence and enmity—a discordance which has permitted and has often encouraged Church membership to engage in slaughter, maiming and mayhem on a grand scale for more than a millennium—is a credibility crisis that most of humanity sees as obvious. It also sees this discordance as vitiating the Church’s proclamation that Jesus is the incarnation of God who teaches the Way to eternal life. The discordance with its resultant credibility gap is exposed with lucidity by the words of the world-renowned Catholic biblical scholar, the late Rev. John L. McKenzie:
We have tried to produce a form of Christianity that will be tolerable to those who believe that the best way to deal with your enemies is to beat their heads in. And, we have done this. We have produced the Christian ethic of the just war. This is not the New Testament and every theologian knows it...
If Jesus did not reject any type of violence for any purpose, then we know nothing of him. No reader of the New Testament, simple or sophisticated, can retain any doubt of Jesus’ position toward violence directed to persons, individual or collective, organized or free enterprise, he rejected it totally...
Jesus presents in His words and life not only a good way of doing things, not only an ideal to be executed whenever it is convenient, but the only way of doing what He did.
If Church reform is not reform in the direction of restoring conformity to what Jesus commanded the Church to teach and to obey (Mt 28:20), and if it is not directed to bringing Church members back to following what Jesus taught by word and deed and commanded his disciples to follow in word and deed —Teach them to obey all that I have commanded you—then just what is being reformed? Furthermore, if reform is not directed toward restoring conformity with Jesus’ new commandment, love one another as I have loved you—the commandment which, according to the Catechism, contains the entire Law of the Gospel and summarizes all others and expresses the entire will of the Father—then what is being reformed? Is Church reformation about a change in who is going to be boss? Is it about who is going to get his or her hands on the levers of power and the spigots that control the flow of money in the Church? Is it about whose philosophy of life is going to be raised above or made equal to the teaching of Jesus regarding the will of the Father, which is to be done on earth as it is in heaven?
No rational person with even a minimal knowledge of the workings of the hierarchy and the Vatican could reasonably conclude anything other than that its members are so enmeshed in a pietistic form of secularism and are so far beyond the pale of witnessing to the truth of the teachings of Jesus as laid out in the Gospels, that they are in dreadful need of epoch-making top-down reform, if they are ever to do the task they were explicitly commissioned to do by Jesus (Mt 28:20).
Let me, however, seemingly digress for a moment, but only seemingly. My friend, Elbon Kilpatrick, a Protestant minister in Tennessee, feels called by God over the last several years to stand silently, every Sunday, on public property outside of Catholic and Protestant Churches in various parts of the state. He carries signs that say something about the Jesus of the Gospel about whom worshippers are hearing on Sunday. The signs say that the Jesus of the Gospels whom they worship and to whom they are praying is nonviolent, teaches a Way of Nonviolent Love of friends and enemies, and therefore cannot be followed by people engaging in the mass human slaughter and enmity of war. Well, the ferocity of the viciousness, vituperation and vilification, of the threats, meanness and ugliness with which he is universally bombarded Sunday after Sunday, by Christians going into Church and coming out of Church, is such that any non-Christian observer of the scene would be sickened by what he or she heard and saw. Unless one wishes to argue that this vehement, systematic rejection of the Nonviolent Jesus of the Gospels and of His Way of Nonviolent Love of friends and enemies is but a quirk of these Christians and their Churches in Tennessee, then something far more profound and far-reaching than structural reform is imperatively needed in the Church—and it is not just the hierarchy and the Vatican in critical need of this reform, although it is indeed needed there. The time has certainly long since come for priests and laity also to reform, to remove the gigantic beam of grotesque untruth from their own eyes—the beam that permits them to believe that they can faithfully follow Jesus by way of violence and enmity. No one, outside those in the Constantinian Christian war Churches, gives an ounce of credibility to such a logical and spiritual absurdity. It radically and fundamentally undermine not only the credibility of the Church and every Christian who clings to its self evident preposterousness, but also undercut belief in the person of Jesus, who He is, what He did and how He did it.
There is indeed, as Hans Kung correctly states, an exceedingly dour credibility crisis in the institutional Church. But, it is not at root a crisis regarding the institutional structures through which the truth of Jesus should be proclaimed, lived and fostered. Nor, is it primarily a crisis about the type of personnel who oversee the proclamation, the living and the fostering of the truth of Jesus. The credibility crisis in the Church is about the institutional Church—via its personnel and structure—presenting and nurturing as the truth of Jesus the opposite of the truth that Jesus explicitly taught and explicitly commissioned His Church to teach and to obey (Mt 28:20). As Mahatma Gandhi once reflected, The only people in the world who do not see Jesus as nonviolent are Christians! What does this mean in terms of Church credibility. Yet, what Church, Church leader or Church reformer gives a hoot?
The truth of the premise upon which a structure is built or reformed determines that structures validity as a means to accomplished a desired end. Means chosen that cannot accomplish the ends desired are illusions. The ends that the Church and every Christian must desire are the ends that Jesus desires. Therefore, the means that the Church and the Christian must choose to achieve these ends are the means that Jesus chose—not their opposite. Contradictory things cannot be the means of salvation, publicly declares Pope Benedict XVI, perhaps to the detriment of his own earthly self interests. To again note and emphasize what the Gospels note and emphasize without a scintilla of ambiguity: Jesus presents in His words and life not only a good way of doing things, not only an ideal to be executed whenever it is convenient, but the only way of doing what He did.
There lies the rejected truth, premise, cornerstone, the absence of which has generated the culture of violence, of untold forms of justified violence in the Church—from the mass slaughter of war to what Church officers euphemistically called the unseen, covered-up world of the daily piccole brutalita (little brutalities). It is a culture that has gone on in the Church from sunrise to sunset since the time of the Constantinian alteration of the institutional Church right on through the Reformation to today without missing a beat. From that time on popes, patriarchs, bishops, priests, ministers, deacons have had as the premise from which they were operating the title and theme of Frank Sinatra’s song, My Way. And “my way” for them means the use and spiritual justification of violence and enmity, that is the use and spiritual justification of dominative power, the power to get done what one wants to get done by the means of fear grounded in the threat and use of violence. “My way” obviously requires a rejection of His foolish Way of Nonviolent Love of friends and enemies unto death, if necessary.
So, here is the institutional Church’s primeval and overarching credibility crisis today—which non-Christian humanity well knows and rightly fears—writ large in bold upper case letters:
WE, CHURCH LEADERS AND LAITY, BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD, BUT WE DO NOT BELIEVE HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE FATHER’S WILL AND HIS FOLLOWERS DOING THE FATHER’S WILL IN THE FACE OF A WORLD DRENCHED IN THE EVILS OF VIOLENCE AND ENMITY. SO, WE, THE INSTITUTIONAL CHURCH, TEACH AND JUSTIFY DOING THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE TAUGHT AND TEACH DOING IT IN HIS NAME.
Talk about a Class-A Church credibility crisis! And yet, no crisis! Talk about required reform! Yet, no call at any level of the Church—by the conservative or the liberal gatekeepers of what is and what is not to be considered needed reform—for reform here!
Emmanuel Charles McCarthy
I met a man a while ago who recited a list of not so nice things he'd do to any priest who went near his children. He ranted and raved about priests and the Church. I took one, long, hard, look at the man and said "I wouldn't like to be his daughter".
The blame for the problems of the Church is probably shared by both the Church and the world. Clericalism (not to be confused with legitimate episcopal authority) doesn't help, nor do criminal priests and timid bishops in the consecrated orders. Nor do I think that renegade theologians and freelancing nuns are without some responsibility. But surely if the laity walks away from the Church of Jesus and the apostles (this is, after all, the Catholic conviction), I find it incredible to believe that at least some of the laity have not chosen the City of Man rather than the City of God. Yes, the shepherds have sinned. But Jesus himself chose the metaphor of the shepherd and flock for his church, and when I can no longer see that trope embodied in the Church I will lose hope that this is the body that enshrines the promise of Christ.
He might avoid to peddle such nonsense as that the Vatican/CDF was uninformed/incompetent until 2001 (and the documents of that year, "Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela" and "De delictis gravioribus"), with hyped apologetic phrases like, "prior to Ratzinger’s seizing control of the process and bringing it under CDF’s competence in 2001".
One need only be open to this possibility in order to experience authentic communion with the risen Christ during Eucharistic Adoration.
Although I am not Catholic, I cannot deny how profoundly this humble act has changed my life.
Thanks be to God!
I am blown away by the vitriol and lack of charity of many of the posters here.
With regard to Weigel's letter, I can accept an argument that begins with and deals with issues, but what I read in this article, from the very first sentences, is personal attack and argumentum ad hominem. And ditto for the majority of the posts.
Sorry, but this is not the style of Catholicism I want to be associated with.
have sinned. In the opinion of one of the Council Fathers there is a link between
the two. In the second session of Vatican II Bishop Frane Frani spoke of poverty
as a necessary condition of holiness of bishops. He also said that bishops had a
much greater obligation to be holy than all other members of the Church "because
as bishops we must sanctify others". Pointing out that since the Middle Ages not
many saints have come from the ranks of bishops he said that "this would seem to indicate a lack of heroic sanctity among bishops, and I believe the reason for it is a lack of evangelical poverty".
The case of Archbishop Rembert Weakland, who had global influence in the Church
following Vatican II, is a sad reminder of the truth of Bishop Frani's words.
Archbishop Weakland retired in 2002, having reached the mandatory retirement age of 75. His retirement was overshadowed by revelations that he paid $450,000 of diocesan funds to a man who had been his lover to fend off a threatened lawsuit.
In 2009 he spoke openly - and unrepentantly - of his homosexuality in a book that
he had written.
Heroic sanctity? Sanctifying others? Tragically, no. May God have mercy on him.
I agree that George Weigel's piece and your response were "ad-homenim attacks" with one significant difference. George Weigel's piece seemed to focus on intellectual flaws whreas yours focused on character flaws.
That being said, George Weigel is a commentator. You are a Priest. I expected better
I couldn't agree with you more.
Tony Down Under,
Pray for us.
Best,
Richard
As for summoning another Council, I'm not all that opposed, as long as it is called to heal the 1,000 year rift between Catholics and Orthodox, not one to forge "reform" a la Küng. I tell those who demand that kind of "reform" to join the Episcopal Church and leave us Catholic Christians alone in the Catholic Church.
-Theo.
“That if gold rust, what shall iron do?/ For if a priest be foul, in whom we trust,/ No wonder is a lewd man to rust.”
Ever tried to think what Our LORD is thinking of all this mess that so many Church followers have dragged HIS Church into?
Some middle road of truth or overlapping version would be more fitting to the only one Truth that Christ mtaught. HE is the only Way forward.
Prayer and more reflection on HIS teachings should alleviate the presnt Church crisis - as the answer to A Quo Vadis.
Please take a look at the older practice of married priesthood.
See how open-minded you are.
The Eastern Catholic Church (which seems to be absent in Ireland) has a married clergy. Pope Benedict is in full support. Our Eastern Churches in America are orthodox in doctrine, celebrate in the people's language, have beautiful liturgies and are growing.....all the characteristics of a Godly parish: truth, goodness and beauty. We have two priests and two deacons. Their wives have a ministry too within the congregation. Look at the new Melkite Cathedral in Montreal....two Sunday liturgies, overflowing.
More dialogue needed about celibacy and its 'closed' approach by the pious.
As such, however, the author's resort to this "tried-and-true" technique simply devalues anything he might have been able to add to this interesting debate.
Pity.
As regards Weigel he is a warmongering theocon who is just spotting a political opportunity.
"Weapons-grade text."
Our church needs radical reform. "I leave you a new commandment that you love one another as I have loved you."
And now it is too late to turn back. ALL bishops have been damaged — by their silence if nothing else. And we in the pews have been paying attention and now wonder about the wisdom of the entire teaching charism of the Church — one which the men in red silk have taken entirely upon themselves. We know that the abusing priests are stunted in their psycho-sexual development, still childlike themselves in their in their understanding of sexuality, gender, and holistic social development. How can it be then that their theology, their declarations on morality, on creation in the world itself be anything other than stunted as well? The “crisis” –I think it is now an “opportunity” instead — the opportunity now is to unite the Church — and we ARE the Church — around a fulfillment of the Vatican II documents and to breathe life into our Church once more. The Holy Spirit has already done her job by throwing back the curtain and revealing the feeble clerk who is lost in the world. Thank you, Hans Kung.
Care to join the Facebook page re Kung’s letter? http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114780715217560
No, Kung is not worse than Pfeger, but jm misses the point: without the Kungs of the world, the Pflegers would not be nearly so public in their perversions of the Faith into the path of the politics of cultural Marxism. The Kungs must be addressed and take care of before the Pflegers.
And yes, those jobs are long overdue.
1. To presume that one's own opinion or the opinion of one's group is indicative of that of the the entire Roman Catholic Church is arrogant. For Peter's sake, we're speaking of a multinational organization of over a billion people! What is "important" for the Roman Catholic Church in America is not an issue in need of reform in the minds of Roman Catholics in Indonesia, or Africa, or Latin America. Whether we like it or not, American Catholics are a minority. Any Ecumenical council worthy of the name would reflect those shifting demographics and needs, and probably not focus on the issues Americans or Europeans deem "vital".
So when you say, "we in the pews have been paying attention and now wonder about the wisdom of the entire teaching charism of the Church", I'd kindly ask you not to speak as though you are pope, or as though your views reflect my own. They do not.
2. There is a term in the discipline of history for the act of condemning or judging an entire group of people based on the actions of some members of that group. That term is collectivism, and it is precisely what is being done in relation to the clerical sex abuse scandals. You state, "How can it be then that their theology, their declarations on morality, on creation in the world itself be anything other than stunted as well?"
How can you condemn the entire theology of the Catholic church for the actions of .4-4.7% of her priests?
If you're interested in the truth, you can't make such condemnations.
You can't boil down the contributions, richness of faith, influence and actions of God, 1 billion people, and two thousand years of history so simplistically. To do so is a caricature of the faith which shows the absence of the action of the Holy Spirit (and proper perspective) in those so doing.
The Spirit of Truth will prevail over the Father of Lies. We know this not because of any human characteristics of our Church, but because of the presence and promise of God to prevail in spite of our human limits and sins.
Christ said he came to heal the broken and call back the sinner. Sin can wound the institution, and it must be fought and healed, but it cannot, will not, prevail over Christ's Body. Any who believe these "crises" could destroy the Church are truly "ye of little faith".
You say that your open letter to Hans Kung was prompted by your being struck by its "extraordinary vitriol ... and ... its misstatements of fact." In reading your open letter, however, I cannot see any significant difference between it and the letter of Kung you accuse of being vitriolic. You seem to be playing the very same game that you accuse Kung of in the following ways:
You say Kung harbors -what you term as- odium theologicum. Tell me, don't you harbor the same theological hatred for Kung and his positions? Why do you have to mention the red Mercedes incident in what is supposed to be a discussion of serious issues if not for heightened effect in your deliberate effort to present Kung as nothing more than a young, vain council peritus? This vanity you connect to a statement which is downright and shockingly unfair (from someone like you) - the accusation that Kung intentionally "invented" the personality-type of the dissident theologian. How do you know that? Do you think that being subjected to a long process of investigation from Rome is a fun ego-trip? I really hope that some liberal pope in the future might subject you to the same process. That may make you more judicious in mischaracterizing a Roman inquisitorial procedure and may make you understand that Kung and others like him went through pure psychological torture. This attack of yours on Kung is arguably odium theologicum. It fails miserably the basic test of Christian charity ...
You accuse Kung of pronouncing on matters with "infallible self-assurance." Wait, aren't you doing the same when you yourself pronounce equally infallibly on matters that you think you know about Kung such as: Kung being indifferent to Protestantism's doctrinal chaos, Kung taking rabid Pius XII-baiters at face value, etc. It is clear that in his open letter, Kung is not allotted enough space to better contextualize the issues that he thinks are wanting in the pope's and the institutional church's different positions and policies! Thus, I find that your accusations are extremely unfair. Then you also sink quite low towards the end when you suggest that Kung is some kind of ignoramus (I thought you were intelligent. What happened to you?). That is so below the belt!
Oh yes, the famous hermeneutics of rupture. You happen to interpret Vatican II through a hermeneutics of continuity and that paradigm of seeing Vatican II is the one officially sanctioned in our highly clericalized church at the moment. But that does not give you free license to very condescendingly dismiss Kung's (et alii) hermeneutics of rupture as an improper way of seeing the council. You above all should know that there are many Catholics who DO THINK like Kung that Vatican II was ALSO (but not only) some kind of rupture with the past like, let me see.... Karl Rahner (also an intelligent man) ... . If that weren't so, why did Vatican II have to be convened in the first place? John XXIII himself saw the need for some "ruptures" with what went on before. The only problem with the people who also acknowledge the "ruptural" aspects of Vatican II is that they usually have no friends in Rome at present ... If I may employ your words - "You're supposed to be an intelligent man." Why can't you see this?
On a different note, I think your anger at Kung for accusing the CDF of "engineering the worldwide system of covering up crimes" is fair. I think Kung should have been more nuanced about this statement. However, the imprecise statement (in my humble opinion) from Kung about this matter should be viewed vis-a-vis this observation by Thomas Doyle (arguably one of the foremost authorities on this matter)
28. Yet it is not difficult to see why so many have seen in the 1962 Vatican Instruction a
"smoking gun." Over the past 18 years but especially since January 2002 we have witnessed
wave after wave of deception, stone-walling, outright lying, intimidation of victims and complex
schemes to manipulate the truth and obstruct justice. If anything we have watched as the culture
of secrecy ended up causing much of what its proponents hoped it would prevent. The Vatican
document did not cause the clandestine mode of dealing with clergy sex abuse. Rather it reflects
it and should be a strong reminder that there is a much more important value than protecting the
institutional church and its office-holders and that value is the creation and nurture of an attitude
and aura of openness and honesty wherein true justice and compassion can flourish as the most
visible of Catholic virtues.
(See: for full document)
If I may voice out my humble opinion as someone who has studied Kung professionally, your case about him intentionally "smearing" the pope, about his having odium theologicum against the pope does not convince me. I still see Kung as trying primarily to address ISSUES which, in our very centralized and papalized church, happen to be directly connected with the pope. Neither do you convince me that Kung is just making ad hominem attacks or that he is just concerned with enhancing his image. Your vision of Catholicism and Kung's vision are radically different. You have different paradigms (maybe you could re-read Kung's Christianity to review why). I see that both of you love the church and are trying to make your best cases for or against what you think is beneficial or destructive for the church. Maybe you could at least grant that to Kung.
These are some matters that I found disturbing in your open letter. Put bluntly, I think it is you, not Kung, who has to be purged of odium theologicum.
Kung is representative of the tired, old dissident project which, despite being uninspired and uninteteresting, has an incandescent hatred for the Pope, who stands up for the truth about, among other issues, the dignity of the human person.
Kung and the leadership in his order, who are complicit with his sentiment, are as incapable of courageously thinking with the Church as they are in their inability to obediently adhering to the Roman Rite when offering Mass. They profess greater fealty to the false messiahs on the left than to the Vicar of Christ on earth.
It seems strangely amusing that if Kung and his fellow "virtual protestants" took a step back and examined te empirical evidence of their project that was actualized in the Anglican Church with all its liberal expermientation, it would have, as Weigel says "imploded."
The "New Evangelization" among the younger Roman Catholics is taking root and will continue to show Kung's project as irrelevant.
Only a church instituted by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit could be capable of housing and nurturing such a motley crew as we are. It's fascinating to understand that Christ regards each of us, every one of us writing here, with passionate and unchanging love.
How can we Catholics think about these times? Right now we're too close to have objective understanding. But we know that united with Christ's suffering we too suffer with the innocent, both the innocent who have been abused and the innocent who have been calumnied. We know that whatever crime has been committed against each of them has been committed against each of us in the Mystical Body. But it has been committed first against the infinite love of Christ.
For those of us who have been wounded by the sins and failings of those in authority--may God heal us.
For those of us who are responsible for those hurts--may God deal with us in mercy and in justice.
For those of us who have not defended the innocent--may God grant us pardon.
For those of us who have preferred our own will to Church teaching in matters of faith and morals--may God enlighten us.
For those of us seeking truth, peace and renewal--may we seek it in relationship with Jesus in the sacraments of Reconciliation and of the Eucharist, in scripture, and in continuing prayer for our Holy Father. The Holy Spirit has chosen him to guide us, and clearly, we are an unruly flock. May God grant us cleansing through these present sufferings.
Instead of the undignified ad hominem attacks against Fr. Kung, you might consider actually addressing the points the good father made in his letter rather than give the typical one line blithely dismissal of each point that comes along with the arrogance of believing you, as a Catholic, are in sole possession of the truth. You sir do the very thing Fr Kung always argues against. Believe in and steadfastly defend the absolutist inerrant nature of the papacy that has no basis in biblical theology or ancient Christian history.
According to George Weigel, overpopulation is a "tattered myth". According to him, people should have more babies. How to feed them is a not problem for him.
The teachings which deny the divinity of Christ and His bodily resurrection started to come into the Church long before Vatican II. They seem to have multiplied and are causing a lot of people to deviate from the teaching of the Church which is based on the testimony of the Apostles "who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing" in the Bible (Dei Verbum 7)
The image that I had was of a body which had been infected by a number of poisons. These poisons are circulating but the Lord is bringing them into one large boil which will eventually burst. And, of course, the Lord is patient and wants those who have started to spread false teaching to come back to the truth. Furthermore, it is necessary to have all the poisons gather in the boil before it is lanced otherwise you leave a lot of the poison behind.
Not a pretty thought! And when the boil is finally lanced that will be a very trying time for the Church.
The Holy Father... told me, "error makes its way because truth is not taught. We must teach the truth.... not attacking the ones who teach errors because that would never end—they are too numerous. We have to teach the truth." He told me truth has a grace attached to it. Anytime we speak the truth.... an internal grace of God... accompanies that truth. The truth may not immediately enter in the mind and heart of those to whom we talk, but the grace of God is there and at the time they need it, God will open their heart and they will accept it. He said, error does not have grace accompanying it. [Lay Witness, March 1990, 6-7]
That seems like eminently sensible advice. And it has been shown here. The attack by Weigel on the attack by Kung on the Church has only led to more attacks on the attack by Weigel - without addressing any of the issues.
Thank goodness God is patient otherwise we would all be in serious trouble.
The same is true in the world. Bank cashiers need to distinguish between good notes and counterfeit notes. They are not taught to handle dud notes - instead they are taught to handle thousands upon thousands of good notes. The effect is that as soon as a false note is introduced into the pile they can immediately spot it because they are so used to the feel of the good notes.
I hope you mind a few questions.
Do we not encounter Jesus in the sacraments, tradition and the scriptures? Are not the sacraments a transmission of the grace of God wrapped in a physical form? All sacraments transmit Jesus to us who is the Ultimate Sacrament.
And I think the forum to which we will all answer is the Judgement Seat of God. We inform our consciences and try and follow them so that we can stand in the presence of the living God at the end of time. No wonder Paul advised us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling! And if we follow the teaching of the Church and partake of the sacraments as we need to then our consciences should be clear.
And I think that is the point here. The Church decided at one point that Fr Kung was not following the teaching of the Church and forbade him from teaching any more. That is a decision that is not taken lightly. And this was long ago. His latest letter shows the same path - much of it goes against the teaching of the Church. Jesus constantly argued with the Pharisees who presented a false understanding of God. He said to the Sadducees "Are you not in error because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God" He made a whip out of cords and drove the money changers out of the temple. Jesus was certainly not reticent in telling the theologians of his day that they were wrong and making a whip out of cords indicates a certain level of violence and judgement. And in every one of Paul's letters there is an appeal to beware of false teachers.
And I don't think we need to get so worried about good honest debate. After all, the first ever Council in Acts 15 came about because of an argument over the need or otherwise for circumcision. Simone Weil once said that "Christ does not mind if we prefer truth to him because before he was Christ he was truth"
I'm not sure why you ask the first two questions. It seems to me we are saying the same thing about the Sacraments.
I think the matter of what forum we answer to is also not an issue. "Finally" in the context in which I use it means – and I apologize if this was not clear – that after seeking, searching, praying, discerning, fasting if I am led to, about what is right, what I must do, here on earth, is what my conscience tells me. I MUST answer to my conscience. The Holy Spirit lives there – as a bible scholar friend of mine says, He's in residence in our gut. Otherwise, He couldn't hold us accountable. Also, I inform my conscience and follow it so that I can become, with God's help and by His grace, the person he knit me in my mother's womb to be, as the psalmist says. I hope that I will do a good job and that the person standing in His presence at the end of time will be one whom he will grin broadly at, and say welcome to. My clear conscience exists to help me become the person that my Daddy, Abba, meant me to become. Life is most certainly not a school, where I get merits and demerits according to my success in struggling for a 'clear conscience'. Mine has been far too hard for it to have been that.
Sure we all answer after we die at the Father's Judgment Seat. But that's there, in His eternity, not here in our now.
It's worth noting that it's Paul that is the 'fear and trembling' fellow. Jesus, if you stack up the stories, was the one who most often fed people, healed them, affirmed them – for their 'great love' in the case of that sinner, Mary – said that he didn't judge them, and exhorted them, not in terms of a having a clear conscience but in terms of being "perfect, even as my heavenly Father is perfect"... That's so very much more! Clear conscience = be good. Jesus's prescription = be perfect.
I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree about blindly obeying this 'Church' that "decided at one point that Fr Kung was not following [its]... teaching and forbade him from teaching any more". As I pointed out, I know what I have to believe. On the subject of Fr Kungs's right to teach, I certainly do not have to believe what 'the Church' (?) says. I described at the outset how I conceive of the Church. It's a sound description, according to the Gospels and theology. I worship God, not the Pope. It's God's (New) law that binds me, the Great Commandment Jesus gave us.
Some questions of my own, now. Was this the same Church that sanctioned crusades against "the infidel"? Conducted an Inquisition that slapped into jail people whom It would, in due course, elevate to the level of sanctity? Burned people at the stake? Had Popes who were, beyond dispute, evil men? Was at the vanguard of a project of 'discovery' that committed genocide against peaceful, innocent people? Went along with slavery and Jim Crow? Could it be the Church some of whose leaders side, even now, in many parts of the world, with those who oppress the poor? Certainly, it couldn't be the Church whose shepherds have, in both the 'Old' and 'New' worlds, and who knows where else, abused and sacrificed the lives of innocent children on the altar of their lusts? Who, most monstrous of all, failed to act swiftly on behalf of those children and to secure their welfare?
Let's be very clear about this Church of whom we speak. Who runs this Church? Men? Women? White people? Black people? Where do they come from? Who gets to say what's right and wrong? On whose authority? And can It change Its mind? About matters of faith and morals? And when It does, what does that mean? That morality has changed?
As for Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the temple, I've always regarded that as embodying a teaching about capitalism that goes along nicely with His pronouncement about camels being able to pass more easily through they eye of a needle than rich folks being able to find their way into heaven. Also, the Gospels don't tell us that Jesus injured anyone... He did a good job of scaring them and running them out of His Father's house. Otherwise healing that guy whose ear Peter severed would have been a bit hypocritical, don't you think? That lot of rabble had come to lay hands on Him and take Him away to be killed, after all, something a bit more serious than trading in the temple.
Lastly, I know good, honest debate when I see it. Some of these posts have contributed to that. However, many do not, in my judgment, qualify. They are ugly. They don't at all remind me of the Jesus we purport to follow.
Fascinating - I see the story about the temple very differently. My understanding is that Jesus was angry because arrangements like this made repentance and confession too easy. Having the people selling cattle sheep and pigeons (Jn 2:14) already in the temple meant that you could send your servant out to do the shopping and say: "When you go past the Temple can you swing by, get a couple of sheep and get the priest to perform the sacrifice for me" The money changers were there because you had to use the temple shekel.
One could view the sellers of sacrificial animals (and the money changers) as providing a service to the people of God. And they might have earned more by selling their produce in the ordinary market place.
As to poverty - it is quite clear to me that Jesus hated it. He hated it so much that he made sure it would never happen to him so he had a bunch of rich women follow him around. (Luke 8:3)
We all make our own models of Christ. There is "Anti-capitalist Christ", "Modernist Christ", "Cosmic Christ" etc. My own favourite is "White, Bright, Middle-Class, self-employed Christ"
I know his name from my teachers in the '60s, a decade of change despite its shallow thought.
I am surprised this pathetic guru still can cause comment.
Ignore him as we have done with most of those, I have difficulty typing here, 'thinkers' from that decade.
Poor Kung was a lost soul then, and he remains so today. Pray for him.
Kevin McNiff, Toronto, Canada.
's. I am concerned, however, that you have become frustrated with those who seek to undermine His Church because you usually do not stoop to the level of those who use personal attacks but rather your genius has been in attacking erroneous statements thus drawing attention to the erroneous arguments of those who dissent to the truths of His Church. Be not afraid but don't be frustrated.
wn. If Christ were here in The Flesh, no doubt He would be turning over tables everywhere as there are many who claim that they and not Christ are the authors of T The Book of Life.
Mr Kung has put forward ninety less demands than that a certain reformer that seems to have had some influence upon him, but really, aren't these six better quashed now with substantive arguments rather than simply dismissed as the ravings of a discredited and disgruntled public figure?
There are a lot of misguided but well-meaning people out there who will take some of Kung's points seriously if not explicitly shown the errors thereof.
Jim D.
Clergyman
Bishop Talavera later told Father Athié that the future pope had read the letter in his presence. According to Father Athié, Cardinal Ratzinger had then said the matter was delicate and it would not be prudent to open an inquiry into Father Maciel's past.
"Cardinal Ratzinger said that, lamentably, the case of Father Maciel could not be opened because he was a person very loved by the pope and had done so much good for the church," Father Athié said in an interview. "This is what Bishop Talavera told me."
For a complete note of this claim, please refer to:
Fernando M. González, "Marcial Maciel. Los legionarios de Cristo: testimonios y documentos inéditos".
Fernando M. González, was born in Jalisco (México) in 1947, he holds a Phd in "Sociología de las Instituciones", and he is Investigador titular del Instituto de Investigaciones Sociales de la Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México (UNAM)
Both Kung and Weigel want to be heard; so forgive them if they stray close to "ad hominum argument areas.
Let us be wise and reflect and feel the pain of modern catholics who want to see the authorities go about like Peter, Paul and the apostles did and not like the governors and princes under Emperor Constantine did.
So Kung has a point. Listen with the heart. Don't get lost in the words and use the Schoolmen's arguments. Intellectuals should articulate the felt problems; not criticize anything that disturbs their comfort level.
Ratzinger - Pope
Kung - still at the same as in 1965 level
So I guess, the Holy Spirit had a hand in their jhourney.
Thank you Lord for Pope Benedict XVI.


