A Catholic’s Gratitude to Evangelicals
May 13, 2011
Colleen Reiss
Growing up in northern New Jersey, I had little contact with the Evangelical culture common in parts of “Bible Belt,” exurban, rural America. Prayer was not commonly uttered in the public sphere, there was no presumption of church attendance, and large, modern “mega-churches” did not dot the landscape. All of these things I would observe later in life, as service in the Army took me to other parts of our nation.
I was raised in the Catholic Church, faithfully attending weekly Mass with my family, preparing for sacraments, and even helping out in small ways as a church musician and altar server. Yet my outward “faith” was rather empty. I had had the initial conversion of baptism, but not the second conversion of heart of which the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks.
Then in high school, a friend invited me to her church—an independent fundamentalist Baptist church, to be precise. This was an entirely new experience. At the time, I did not have the theological vocabulary to name the obvious differences in sacramental theology, ecclesiology, and ways of reading Scripture—but as a teenager what I did understand was that for some perplexing reason, these people thought that my faith was of critical importance. I stayed for ten years, attending Baptist churches wherever I lived in the United States, and even visiting one of the rare Baptist churches in Northern Ireland.
As a Baptist, I learned the habits of Christian living—important lessons, for it is in the risks and challenge of actions that we often grow in faith. This is certainly not to say that one cannot learn these things in the Catholic Church, and today these habits blend seamlessly into the fullness of my Catholic faith.
However, in my particular time and place as a young adult, the Second Vatican Council’s decree in Unitatis Redintegratio that “the Spirit of Christ” indeed uses Christian congregations, to include my Baptist brothers and sisters, “as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church,” rings true in a distinctly personal way.
As I take comfort in the firm hope that through the power of the Holy Spirit, we will one day possess full and visible unity as Christians, I express sincere gratitude for the “lessons of church-going” I learned in Evangelical congregations, of which these are a few.
Love preaching: Baptists are not known for short sermons. As a teenager, adults around me in the pews modeled an enthusiasm and heartfelt desire to hear the Word of God proclaimed. When preaching was effective, it was only right to shout “Amen,” “Preach it, brother!” or “Alleluia” in affirmation. I looked around and saw members of the congregation taking notes—this was important stuff—and knew I must pay attention. Listening to sermons was not passive: I learned to bring a Bible and pencil so that I could actively receive and continue to ponder a sermon in personal prayer.
When I hear some of my fellow Catholics grumble about the excessive length of a seven-minute homily, I am thankful that the contagious enthusiasm of my Evangelical brethren rubbed off on me.
Be accountable to, and for, the Christian community: My Baptist pastors made it clear through cheery yet serious reminders during services that it was my duty to be at my “appointed place” at the “appointed time.” Attending service was not a box to check, but a responsibility to the congregation. Missing church or Sunday school unexpectedly usually resulted in a kind call or e-mail letting me know that I was missed.
The collective sense of accountability extended beyond simple attendance taking. A Catholic priest who had been raised as a Southern Baptist once remarked to me that he recalled men of the congregation asking him about his prayer life or “testimony” as a young teenager, and then letting his father know how his son seemed to be doing. I know that older members of Baptist churches I have attended will occasionally ask if I am keeping up with Bible reading or how my prayer life is.
Through their examples, I learned that in a spirit of love, Christians must hold each other accountable, encourage good habits, and genuinely care about each other’s spiritual wellbeing. While this is challenging in many larger Catholic parishes, I am thankful for their examples that I carry with me into parish life.
Live out your baptismal priesthood: In a theology steeped in “faith alone,” I quickly learned, from the high levels of participation in various church ministries of those around me, that ministry was an action inherent in my identity as a baptized child of God. There was an imbued sense that everyone had a gift to offer to support the ministry of the church, whether it be cooking food, chaperoning children on a bus route, being in choir, teaching a Sunday school class, praying for missionaries, or doing evangelistic outreach. Being a teenager new to the church was no obstacle or excuse; we were all presumed to have something to offer and every person was needed to proclaim the Gospel to the world.
I know many Catholics who have a sense of detachment from their ministry as baptized believers. Devoting oneself to a contemplative or active ministry of one’s parish is seen as an “extra” for those who are especially devout, but not for an “average” baptized Catholic. I am thankful for being taught at a young, impressionable age that my Christian identity could not be separated from the call to participate in the work of the Church.
Some will read this and think, “she would have learned that in my Catholic parish” or “all of those lessons are found in Catholic spirituality.” The first may be true, and the second is most certainly true. My claim is merely personal: I have seen and experienced the gifts of Evangelical churches in a way that has profoundly influenced my life of faith in a most positive way. Although we have significant doctrinal differences, it is with love that I express deep gratitude to Evangelical Christians who formed me in the habits that enable me to continually respond to God’s call and grow as a Christian.
Colleen Reiss, a M.Div. candidate at the University of Notre Dame has served in young adult ministry, children’s catechesis, and as a chapel music director.
RESOURCES
Joe Carter, What Evangelicals Owe Catholics: An Appreciation
Comments:
5.13.2011 | 10:19am
Karen says:
Preaching: This is a basic difference between Catholics and Protestants. I'm a Presbyterian while my husband was raised Catholic. My in-laws were quite devout, so I attended a few services with my husband while we were dating. The homilies were, every single one, dreadful. The priest spoke in a monotone, his sentences were rambling, and the sermon never came to a point. I was used to enthusiastic and pointed sermons, almost all of them with explanation of what the Scripture meant in the original languages. Something I could think about for the rest of the week. Not all Protestant sermons are brilliant, but the standard is generally quite high. With the priests, the homily was clearly a terrible chore to be endured and completed as quickly as possible. I spent the entire ten minutes pining for a hymnbook to read. I know that Catholic theology doesn't stress knowledge of the Bible for laypeople to the same extent Protestant theology does, but the priests I heard made the Bible boring.
5.13.2011 | 10:49am
Dblade says:
Karen brings up a point that you could have added, Scriptural knowledge. Evangelicals can quote scripture from memory, and bind themselves to the book and its words. Catholics don't seem to have that knowledge, and tend to substitute encylicals and papal pronouncements. They tend to treat the interpretations of the Bible by authority higher than the direct experience of it, which is why you have 7 minute homilies in the first place.
This leads to a lot of cultural christianity where people faithfully go to mass every day, but think gay marriage is okay. Or unrestricted free-market capitalism (for equal nose-tweaking time.) It's not limited to it though, a lot of liberal protestant "high" churches are the same.
Even though I lost my faith, being part of a fundamentalist pentecostal sect was invaluable because of that. Biblical literacy can be an antidote for so many things.
This leads to a lot of cultural christianity where people faithfully go to mass every day, but think gay marriage is okay. Or unrestricted free-market capitalism (for equal nose-tweaking time.) It's not limited to it though, a lot of liberal protestant "high" churches are the same.
Even though I lost my faith, being part of a fundamentalist pentecostal sect was invaluable because of that. Biblical literacy can be an antidote for so many things.
5.13.2011 | 11:06am
Elaine A. says:
Karen While I agree with you that preaching at Mass needs improvement and am inspired by a good sermon, the Mass is not really about preaching. Vatican II led to more stress on the Word of God, in other words, the Scriptures, true. But the Mass is really about the Sacrifice on the altar- the Eucharist , the Body and the Blood. Indeed, it would still be Mass even if there was no sermon at all, or just a few sentences, as is sometimes the case at a week-day Mass. Fortunately for some of our priests, we never have the opportunity to vote them in or out based on their preaching ability{smile}. Then again , some of the most effective priests I have known over the years have not been great speakers. The emphasis is different. I agree that improvement is needed.
5.13.2011 | 11:26am
Jimmy Rushing says:
I'm a devout Catholic and I regretfully agree with you, Karen.
5.13.2011 | 11:34am
Jimmy Rushing says:
But then there is Father George Rutler, who's homilies are non pareil. You may find them here under the audio section. It's easy (and free) to subscribe.
http://www.oursaviournyc.org/
http://www.oursaviournyc.org/
5.13.2011 | 11:36am
Matt says:
Catholic preaching was not always like this. I know that they weren't typical, but reading the sermons of the medieval mendicants or the Jesuits after Trent is quite an experience. The thought that often crosses my mind is that I will probably never hear a sermon even approaching this sort of quality in my lifetime... Alas.
But at least many of the Church's authorities are aware of the http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1341812?eng=y
But at least many of the Church's authorities are aware of the http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1341812?eng=y
5.13.2011 | 11:39am
Brian LeCompte says:
Rather than put the onus of creating a good church on the backs, or mouths, or priests, take another look at Karen's article. Most of what she says refers to community, not the preacher. It was lack of community that drove her out of the Catholic church and into the Baptist community in the first place, not a dissatisfaction with preaching. Most of her comments on preaching refer to what the people were doing anyway, taking notes, checking their Bibles, not what the preacher actually said.
The priests will preach and provide sacraments. It's up to the laity to build the community -- in the church and in the world.
Please don't put priests up on a pedastal!
The priests will preach and provide sacraments. It's up to the laity to build the community -- in the church and in the world.
Please don't put priests up on a pedastal!
5.13.2011 | 11:50am
AZ Preacher says:
While not making excuses for poor homilies at Mass, the Catholic preacher is at a disadvantage when compared to Baptist preachers in that Catholics preach from a lectionary, which covers three years and almost the entire bible and a few holy days/dogmas to preach about. So as a Catholic preacher, your knowledge and understanding of the bible needs to be pretty vast. While the Baptist preacher can usually choose which scriptures to preach from the Catholic has a specified selection. Now if I could choose which scriptures to preach from I certainly would choose the ones I was most comfortable with, knew best and had the best material one.
Shorter is also more of a challenge than longer. I have given excellent 30 minute homilies at Sunday Mass and have the scars to prove it! The other big challenge is that the Sunday congregation is like a one room school house: with people from just about every age group, educational level and many language groups and cultures. How to speak to them all is a challenge for every preacher, Baptist or Catholic.
Shorter is also more of a challenge than longer. I have given excellent 30 minute homilies at Sunday Mass and have the scars to prove it! The other big challenge is that the Sunday congregation is like a one room school house: with people from just about every age group, educational level and many language groups and cultures. How to speak to them all is a challenge for every preacher, Baptist or Catholic.
5.13.2011 | 11:56am
Ramon A Medina says:
This is so true! It is a shame that we Christians are so easily led to criticize others that believe in Christ as their true Lord and Savior, and this only serves to deepen the divisions between us. As a Catholic I loved the experience of watching "The Journey Home" program in EWTN, and discovering there the humanity of many people that where honestly seeking God. Now when I am tempted to judge my fellow Christians I always remember our Lords prayer in John 17:21
"21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me". This is so consoling that it always reminds me of His commandment to love our neighbor, and the basic fact that love always has to start with RESPECT for that other person. After all it is the Lord who will judge us, and we all know that we all will get a good and merciful judgement from Him.
Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ! He is risen, truly risen!
"21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me". This is so consoling that it always reminds me of His commandment to love our neighbor, and the basic fact that love always has to start with RESPECT for that other person. After all it is the Lord who will judge us, and we all know that we all will get a good and merciful judgement from Him.
Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ! He is risen, truly risen!
5.13.2011 | 12:03pm
Gail F says:
Another explanation (not apology!) for the poor quality of preaching in many Catholic parishes is that preaching tends to be the major part of the job of a minister. Many Protestant ministers spend all week writing their sermons (which they deliver only on Sundays), advertise the topic, record the sermon so people can buy DVDs or watch it on local cable, etc. That is what they are trained and hired to do and they can be replaced if they don't do it well. This was a revelation to me when someone first explained it; I had no idea how much time the average minister spent on that task.
The point about the various "ministries" of all the members is interesting as well. I have encountered this in other churches and, while there is a lot to be said for it, it has drawbacks as well. We definitely need to recover the idea of lay people having gifts they are supposed to use for the Church -- and in the world.
The point about the various "ministries" of all the members is interesting as well. I have encountered this in other churches and, while there is a lot to be said for it, it has drawbacks as well. We definitely need to recover the idea of lay people having gifts they are supposed to use for the Church -- and in the world.
5.13.2011 | 12:12pm
Ars Artium says:
As a young child I first experienced a sense of the sacred, of the Divine Presence in a place set apart for God, in a Catholic Church and through the sacraments. Everything else in my life flowed from that first encounter, most importantly perhaps a tendency to love true faith when and where I find it.
Any experience though of Christian fellowship had to wait for decades, until the time when I changed residence from the northeast to Texas. There, at the invitation of a neighbor, I had the privilege of attending a year of Bible study within Bible Study Fellowship.
There is great joy and solace to be found in the Communion of Saints at Mass and through the sacraments and one is never truly alone. But while we are wayfarers of earth, it is a very great good and a joy to be in the company of those who love God through his Son personally, so to speak, and who live all aspects of their lives in close proximity to him.
With Colleen Reiss, "I take comfort in the firm hope that, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we will one day possess full and visible unity as Christians".
Any experience though of Christian fellowship had to wait for decades, until the time when I changed residence from the northeast to Texas. There, at the invitation of a neighbor, I had the privilege of attending a year of Bible study within Bible Study Fellowship.
There is great joy and solace to be found in the Communion of Saints at Mass and through the sacraments and one is never truly alone. But while we are wayfarers of earth, it is a very great good and a joy to be in the company of those who love God through his Son personally, so to speak, and who live all aspects of their lives in close proximity to him.
With Colleen Reiss, "I take comfort in the firm hope that, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we will one day possess full and visible unity as Christians".
5.13.2011 | 12:25pm
Craig Payne says:
Dear Colleen Reiss: Thank you. All quite true.
Whenever I hear a Catholic lament about the lack of knowledge of their own beliefs or reasons for those beliefs among fellow Catholics, I always think, "How long is the typical Sunday sermon? And what is it on? And how did the priest prepare for it?"
As a teacher and occasional minister, I have heard people say things like, "The sermon should not exceed 11 or 12 minutes at the most." My reaction: "You have GOT to be kidding. Is there any important teaching at all you could cover in that length of time?"
Whenever I hear a Catholic lament about the lack of knowledge of their own beliefs or reasons for those beliefs among fellow Catholics, I always think, "How long is the typical Sunday sermon? And what is it on? And how did the priest prepare for it?"
As a teacher and occasional minister, I have heard people say things like, "The sermon should not exceed 11 or 12 minutes at the most." My reaction: "You have GOT to be kidding. Is there any important teaching at all you could cover in that length of time?"
5.13.2011 | 12:35pm
Sarah says:
As an evangelical turned Catholic, this article rings very, very true. I too chuckle when my friends complain about a 20 minute homily. How about an hour-long sermon?
Similarly, DBlade's comment about scripture: Compared to some of my Catholic friends, I am unfamiliar with much of philosophical theology or the latest encyclical. But some of them don't even know the books of the Bible, or where the phrases that make up the Hail Mary or even "This is my body, given unto you" originate. Yet this is where all these encyclicals are supposed to originate.
Elaine A: It's true that the Mass is about the Eucharist. But taking the Eucharist with no understanding of it --through knowledge of the scripture, or through enlightened teaching -- makes it for many just a ritual, with no bearing on their life. Before accepting the Body and Blood of Christ, one should understand what that means and why it's important. That understanding should come from things like homilies.
AZ Preacher: couldn't one familiarize onself with the specified selection of scripture, study it in depth, create good content, and preach fully on that? Just because it isn't the first verse that comes to mind doesn't mean that it's thus incomprehensible and an excuse for a poor homily.
Similarly, DBlade's comment about scripture: Compared to some of my Catholic friends, I am unfamiliar with much of philosophical theology or the latest encyclical. But some of them don't even know the books of the Bible, or where the phrases that make up the Hail Mary or even "This is my body, given unto you" originate. Yet this is where all these encyclicals are supposed to originate.
Elaine A: It's true that the Mass is about the Eucharist. But taking the Eucharist with no understanding of it --through knowledge of the scripture, or through enlightened teaching -- makes it for many just a ritual, with no bearing on their life. Before accepting the Body and Blood of Christ, one should understand what that means and why it's important. That understanding should come from things like homilies.
AZ Preacher: couldn't one familiarize onself with the specified selection of scripture, study it in depth, create good content, and preach fully on that? Just because it isn't the first verse that comes to mind doesn't mean that it's thus incomprehensible and an excuse for a poor homily.
5.13.2011 | 1:13pm
craig says:
This is sad. While problems can arise in any parish, the one, true, holy Catholic church is the leader of all christians. Now that our real tradition is being promoted by Benedict and Holy Mother Church, eg, use of the extraordinary forms of mass, sacraments, and training of seminarians and priests, we can once again lead others to the only true Faith and ultimately Heaven! Holy Family and Mary, Exterminator of Heresies, orate pro nobis!
5.13.2011 | 1:16pm
craig says:
MATT: FIND A FSSP OR TRADITIONAL diocesian PARISH! Substance can make a sermon come alive.
5.13.2011 | 1:17pm
andrew says:
don't put priests on a pedastal [sic]? they're supposed to be and act "in persona christi capitis," for goodness' sake.
my understanding of the mass differs from elaine's. i was always under the impression that (1) the liturgy of the word and (2) the liturgy of the eucharist were both means of grace that were vital to the life of the church. in fact, they're both about christ "the word" and christ in "the eucharist."
since they're both supposed to be christocentric, i see no basis whatsoever in valuing one liturgy over the other. jesus was "priest, prophet, and king," and clergy are charged upon ordination with continuing the embodiment of each of these roles.
my understanding of the mass differs from elaine's. i was always under the impression that (1) the liturgy of the word and (2) the liturgy of the eucharist were both means of grace that were vital to the life of the church. in fact, they're both about christ "the word" and christ in "the eucharist."
since they're both supposed to be christocentric, i see no basis whatsoever in valuing one liturgy over the other. jesus was "priest, prophet, and king," and clergy are charged upon ordination with continuing the embodiment of each of these roles.
5.13.2011 | 1:20pm
patricksarsfield says:
Gail F notes:
"Another explanation (not apology!) for the poor quality of preaching in many Catholic parishes is that preaching tends to be the major part of the job of a minister. Many Protestant ministers spend all week writing their sermons (which they deliver only on Sundays), advertise the topic, record the sermon so people can buy DVDs or watch it on local cable, etc. That is what they are trained and hired to do and they can be replaced if they don't do it well. This was a revelation to me when someone first explained it; I had no idea how much time the average minister spent on that task."
That is a big difference between the Catholic and Protestant "worship" experiences. The Catholic Mass includes Scripture readings and a homily but then it goes onto what most Catholics consider the central purpose of the Mass: the Offertory, Consecration and Communion in which we join ourselves to the once and all sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Crucifix. We have the Crucifix with the hung body of Jesus Christ as the central focus of our church precisely because that is what the Catholic Religion is most importantly about.
Now as to Catholics and Scripture readings and Scripture reading: Do I pay attention to the Scripture readings? Sure and I even do them as a lector. The homily? Sure. Do I read the Bible independently? Sure, for what it's worth. Was I educated on the Bible during my 19 years of Catholic education? Sure, in "Bible History" classes throughout grammar school and in Religion classes in High School. In fact, the same priest who taught me Greek for two years, also taught me Religion and he spent a whole year tracing the Missionary Travels of Saint Paul through Acts and the Epistles. And we often diverted into particular Greek terms in Paul that he thought important to focus on.
Likewise, having been gifted along with all other Catholics with a 2000 Year Tradition, I also read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other traditional literature as well as many books on the History of the Church.
In all events, the whole supposed dichotomy being painted here between "uneducated Catholics" and "educated Evangelicals" so far as the Christian Religion goes does not resonate with me. When I speak to Protestants, I try to focus on the 2000 years that have transpired since Christ gave us His One Holy Universal and Apostolic Church. Why did Christ give us that one Church? And why has it been broken up? For example: Who gave the god-awful king of England authority to overthrow the Church Christ founded? Indeed, if "Scripture ALONE" means anything what is the BIBLICAL warrant for Henry VIII's seizure of the Catholic Church in England? (HINT: there is none).
Most Protestants have very little understanding of Christianity's 2000 Year History. Whether it is the Visibility of the Church throughout that time beginning in the First Century or the venal excuses the kings and lords offered in their wholesale expropriation of the Church's lands throughout England, Scotland, Navarre, Northern Germany and Scandinavia, most Protestants have not thought those issues through. Instead, they often only know that the awful Catholic Church had to be replaced (and expropriated) because salvation is by Faith ALONE (whatever the Bible may actually say). Why a misreading of James 2:24 should have given the kings, and other politicians the right to steal away the property of the Church is never really discussed.
We are not divided because Catholics have "Salvation by Faith Alone" wrong as Joe Carter said in the first article in this thread. We are broken up because a bunch of people along the way decided to break off into organizations that they could control. Good question: "Cui bono?"
"Another explanation (not apology!) for the poor quality of preaching in many Catholic parishes is that preaching tends to be the major part of the job of a minister. Many Protestant ministers spend all week writing their sermons (which they deliver only on Sundays), advertise the topic, record the sermon so people can buy DVDs or watch it on local cable, etc. That is what they are trained and hired to do and they can be replaced if they don't do it well. This was a revelation to me when someone first explained it; I had no idea how much time the average minister spent on that task."
That is a big difference between the Catholic and Protestant "worship" experiences. The Catholic Mass includes Scripture readings and a homily but then it goes onto what most Catholics consider the central purpose of the Mass: the Offertory, Consecration and Communion in which we join ourselves to the once and all sufficient sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Crucifix. We have the Crucifix with the hung body of Jesus Christ as the central focus of our church precisely because that is what the Catholic Religion is most importantly about.
Now as to Catholics and Scripture readings and Scripture reading: Do I pay attention to the Scripture readings? Sure and I even do them as a lector. The homily? Sure. Do I read the Bible independently? Sure, for what it's worth. Was I educated on the Bible during my 19 years of Catholic education? Sure, in "Bible History" classes throughout grammar school and in Religion classes in High School. In fact, the same priest who taught me Greek for two years, also taught me Religion and he spent a whole year tracing the Missionary Travels of Saint Paul through Acts and the Epistles. And we often diverted into particular Greek terms in Paul that he thought important to focus on.
Likewise, having been gifted along with all other Catholics with a 2000 Year Tradition, I also read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other traditional literature as well as many books on the History of the Church.
In all events, the whole supposed dichotomy being painted here between "uneducated Catholics" and "educated Evangelicals" so far as the Christian Religion goes does not resonate with me. When I speak to Protestants, I try to focus on the 2000 years that have transpired since Christ gave us His One Holy Universal and Apostolic Church. Why did Christ give us that one Church? And why has it been broken up? For example: Who gave the god-awful king of England authority to overthrow the Church Christ founded? Indeed, if "Scripture ALONE" means anything what is the BIBLICAL warrant for Henry VIII's seizure of the Catholic Church in England? (HINT: there is none).
Most Protestants have very little understanding of Christianity's 2000 Year History. Whether it is the Visibility of the Church throughout that time beginning in the First Century or the venal excuses the kings and lords offered in their wholesale expropriation of the Church's lands throughout England, Scotland, Navarre, Northern Germany and Scandinavia, most Protestants have not thought those issues through. Instead, they often only know that the awful Catholic Church had to be replaced (and expropriated) because salvation is by Faith ALONE (whatever the Bible may actually say). Why a misreading of James 2:24 should have given the kings, and other politicians the right to steal away the property of the Church is never really discussed.
We are not divided because Catholics have "Salvation by Faith Alone" wrong as Joe Carter said in the first article in this thread. We are broken up because a bunch of people along the way decided to break off into organizations that they could control. Good question: "Cui bono?"
5.13.2011 | 1:26pm
Martin Gomez says:
Collein gets right to the heart of the matter when she says "(I had not) the second conversion of heart of which the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks When Vatican II allowed that Christians can learn from each other - Unitatis Redintegratio - God unleashed the Charismatic renewal on the Catholic Church. It was fantastic, it grew like wildfire.
But it had been learned from the Evangelicals, David Wilkerson et al., so our dear bishops greatly mistrusted it. They also gave the distinct impression that they themselves shuddered at the idea that they would be identified with "those people" if they endorsed it. I was there, and I can honestly say that with the very odd exception (Cardinal Ratzinger happened to be one), they did everything in their power to kill the movement.
So God kept his promise: "What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven". The movement stopped. The floor of hell truly is paved with the skulls of bishops.
Is it any wonder the Catholic Church is losing so many of its members to Evangelical Churches? I love the mass and cannot turn my back on the true church of Christ, but I long for that fire of the Holy Spirit that I knew as a charismatic. And I understand exactly what Collein is saying, and where the root of it all lies.
But it had been learned from the Evangelicals, David Wilkerson et al., so our dear bishops greatly mistrusted it. They also gave the distinct impression that they themselves shuddered at the idea that they would be identified with "those people" if they endorsed it. I was there, and I can honestly say that with the very odd exception (Cardinal Ratzinger happened to be one), they did everything in their power to kill the movement.
So God kept his promise: "What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven". The movement stopped. The floor of hell truly is paved with the skulls of bishops.
Is it any wonder the Catholic Church is losing so many of its members to Evangelical Churches? I love the mass and cannot turn my back on the true church of Christ, but I long for that fire of the Holy Spirit that I knew as a charismatic. And I understand exactly what Collein is saying, and where the root of it all lies.
5.13.2011 | 1:43pm
patricksarsfield says:
Craig Payne writes:
"Whenever I hear a Catholic lament about the lack of knowledge of their own beliefs or reasons for those beliefs among fellow Catholics, I always think, "How long is the typical Sunday sermon? And what is it on? And how did the priest prepare for it?"
As a teacher and occasional minister, I have heard people say things like, "The sermon should not exceed 11 or 12 minutes at the most." My reaction: "You have GOT to be kidding. Is there any important teaching at all you could cover in that length of time?"
That is because you are a minister who is competing with a whole bunch of other ministers and therefore looking to train your flock to believe in your particular brand of church. Most Catholics, by contrast, do not view their Church as just another brand. We raise our kids in the Faith just as we were raised in the Faith. Many of us got our educations in Catholic Schools or at least in CCD. (I had 16 years of full-time Christian Education (and another 3 in a Catholic University but dedicated to a professional degree)). For us, church is not about a basic education in the Religion. That was done when we were kids. So we don't need "re-educaytion" when we go to Church.
Simply put, the sermon is therefore NOT the central act in the Mass. I don't go to Mass primarily to be taught; I go to Mass to join myself to my fellow christians and to Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Cross. Do I have a problem with a twelve minute sermon? No, but I would have a big problem with an hour's sermon. How much filler would it contain? How many diversions into what is going on in the life of the homilist? Good statement: "Brevity is the soul of wit."
"
"Whenever I hear a Catholic lament about the lack of knowledge of their own beliefs or reasons for those beliefs among fellow Catholics, I always think, "How long is the typical Sunday sermon? And what is it on? And how did the priest prepare for it?"
As a teacher and occasional minister, I have heard people say things like, "The sermon should not exceed 11 or 12 minutes at the most." My reaction: "You have GOT to be kidding. Is there any important teaching at all you could cover in that length of time?"
That is because you are a minister who is competing with a whole bunch of other ministers and therefore looking to train your flock to believe in your particular brand of church. Most Catholics, by contrast, do not view their Church as just another brand. We raise our kids in the Faith just as we were raised in the Faith. Many of us got our educations in Catholic Schools or at least in CCD. (I had 16 years of full-time Christian Education (and another 3 in a Catholic University but dedicated to a professional degree)). For us, church is not about a basic education in the Religion. That was done when we were kids. So we don't need "re-educaytion" when we go to Church.
Simply put, the sermon is therefore NOT the central act in the Mass. I don't go to Mass primarily to be taught; I go to Mass to join myself to my fellow christians and to Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Cross. Do I have a problem with a twelve minute sermon? No, but I would have a big problem with an hour's sermon. How much filler would it contain? How many diversions into what is going on in the life of the homilist? Good statement: "Brevity is the soul of wit."
"
5.13.2011 | 2:31pm
Michael says:
I must thank the non-Catholic Christians at my work who out of genuine love for me and concern for my salvation constantly challenged my Catholic beliefs. I know The Faith much better since I had to defend it. Over the years, efforts to convert me have faded, replaced by love and respect. We all are better Christians. I have a greater desire share God's truth because that is what He wants me to do. I pray that they come into communion with His Church Militant. If not then I pray that we shall be together in the Church Triumphant.
5.13.2011 | 3:02pm
Craig Payne says:
Dear Patricksarsfield: Note that my comment was a conditional and began with, "Whenever I hear a Catholic lament about the lack of knowledge of their own beliefs or reasons for those beliefs among fellow Catholics...." You, obviously, are an exception and not a cause for lamentation. For many of the rest of us, however, Karen's comment back in Post 1 rings true.
I agree that the Eucharist is the center of a Mass. However, this does not imply that the sermon is therefore unimportant. Catholics really do need the preaching of the Scriptures just as Protestants do.
I agree that the Eucharist is the center of a Mass. However, this does not imply that the sermon is therefore unimportant. Catholics really do need the preaching of the Scriptures just as Protestants do.
5.13.2011 | 3:05pm
Randy says:
Part of it may just be how Protestants and Catholics see the church sanctuary differently. Evangelical Protestants are inviting Christ to come down and join them in their humble little abode, offering their best hospitality, while Catholics are humbly quietly entering Christ's abode. They're visiting Christ's Sanctuary. For that hour during mass, Catholics are entering the Kingdom. That's a reason, for most of us, to be cautious and reserved.
5.13.2011 | 3:20pm
patricksarsfield says:
Craig Payne writes:
"Catholics really do need the preaching of the Scriptures just as Protestants do. "
Sure we do, but we need a lot more thorough-going education in the Faith than just is available in sermon-time on Sunday morning....Just as Protestants do.
"Catholics really do need the preaching of the Scriptures just as Protestants do. "
Sure we do, but we need a lot more thorough-going education in the Faith than just is available in sermon-time on Sunday morning....Just as Protestants do.
5.13.2011 | 4:24pm
Buzz says:
patricksarsfield
You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Protestant Reformation, the beliefs and practices of the Protestant churches, or of most Protestant evangelicals.
You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Protestant Reformation, the beliefs and practices of the Protestant churches, or of most Protestant evangelicals.
5.13.2011 | 4:26pm
Don Roberto says:
My perspective (Oakland, CA) is that we're seeing an awakening in the RCC. Priests, even those to whom this does not come easily, are putting great effort into their homilies. Catholic media are spreading orthodox teaching. People are gathering to discuss the Bible (often with help from converts like Jeff Cavins and Scott Hann). An improved U.S. Missal is soon to be released. God willing my impression is representative of what Blessed JPII and so many other have prayed for.
†
†
5.13.2011 | 4:27pm
JP says:
The main difference between Protestants services and Catholic masses lie in the intent. Catholic masses are also known as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The only requirement for a Mass is a priest and the species. Everything about the Mass points towards the Consecration of the Bread and Wine. Everything else is secondary. The high point of the Mass ends when the priest finsihes the consecration and litterally brings Christ - Body Blood Soul and Divinity - into this world. All other things, the Readings, music, homily are secondary. The Eucharist and all the graces that flow from it are more than enough to sustain us. People who attend daily masses see this all the time. The Daily Mass is short, with most of the time taken up by the Consecration. It usually lasts no more than 30 minutes. It is devoid of pomp and circumstance, singing, and charismatic preaching. It is usually very quiet and its focus is totally on Christ.
5.13.2011 | 4:42pm
X says:
I prefer the truth and nothing but the truth. To those of us who the know the voice of the Master and follow him. Following strangers and their false teachings leaves a bad taste in our mouths. I've had to go to Protestant/Evangelical/Whatever else they may be called for half my life. I've had to agonize through countless sermons about pseudo Christian doctrines that for a Catholic serve no spiritual nourishment. The only thing I could do, was apply what they were saying to my Catholic identity, because applying it without the Catholic understanding would have rendered their preaching useless to me....I know, I know, they are our "separated brethren," but honestly I could go my whole life without ever having to hear one more word from the mouth of these guys. I just can't do it anymore. I grow weary of arguments that simply hold no water and are ultimately false.
5.13.2011 | 4:44pm
Ars Artium says:
Thank you, JP, for your comment. You are right. The Mass is centered on the action of the Holy Spirit acting through the priest who is present "in persona Christi". "The Eucharist and the graces that flow from it are more than enough to sustain us."
The fellowship that I mentioned and Bible study are also important and good. They help us to more completely understand the Liturgy of the Word and the sacraments. But reception of the Body of Christ is the gift of excellence, above all others.
The fellowship that I mentioned and Bible study are also important and good. They help us to more completely understand the Liturgy of the Word and the sacraments. But reception of the Body of Christ is the gift of excellence, above all others.
5.13.2011 | 4:51pm
Buzz says:
X
Well, I could say similar things to the first half of my life raised in the Catholic church and then having my eyes truly opened once I started attending an Evangelical church.
Well, I could say similar things to the first half of my life raised in the Catholic church and then having my eyes truly opened once I started attending an Evangelical church.
5.13.2011 | 4:55pm
X says:
Preaching doesn't mean anything. The fact is, that if the priest gives a great sermon than great, alleluia!!! If he doesn't, what, I'm going to trade Jesus for some middle aged man with tight shirt and jeans with jelled hair that looks like he's selling Jesus instead of living him. My spiritual life is not based on the words of a man and his understanding of the scriptures. If there's a bad sermon, I'll contemplate on the scriptures myself. Why do I need the priest to do it for me. After all, aren't our Evangelical brothers always talking about having a personal relationship with Jesus. Well that's what I'm doing. Hey, let the big kids play in the big people's playground and let the little kids have the gospel hand fed to them at an evangelical church.
5.13.2011 | 5:03pm
In Joculus Veritas says:
Which one of the 25-30,000 Protestant sects currently to be found in the USA alone, X? We all want access to your minister's inspiration.
5.13.2011 | 5:12pm
andrew says:
a. jesus christ through BOTH (1) word and (2) sacrament is the center of the mass.
b. jesus was and is prophet, priest, and king. as a prophet, jesus taught. since priests stand in persona christi capitis, they should teach, and teach correctly. and we should want to be taught, and be taught correctly.
b. jesus was and is prophet, priest, and king. as a prophet, jesus taught. since priests stand in persona christi capitis, they should teach, and teach correctly. and we should want to be taught, and be taught correctly.
5.13.2011 | 6:08pm
X says:
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. Hey Buzz, why don't you read Justin Martyr and what he says about how the Christians worship on Sundays, written less than 100 years after Christ lived on Earth. Does it sound more like what you do on Sundays? Or How about,"My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations." This is a prophecy about how the gentiles, us, would worship God. Do they offer incense at your church Buzz? What about a pure offering? Anyone with a five IQ knows that there is only one pure offering ever made in history, and that would be Jesus. Does your church claim to do this Buzz? Hey I don't know how you grew up, and what church you went to and who taught you or didn't teach you, but should educate yourself first before making decisions that affect your eternal destiny instead of relying on experiences of the flesh. Or you can be like Martin Luther and say that "Reason is a Whore." That's why one can come to the conclusions he did. He left his brain in his other friar's tunic.
5.13.2011 | 6:55pm
Tom says:
X says, "Preaching doesn't mean anything."
Romans 1:15 "That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome."
1Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."
1Corinthians 9:16 "Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"
By the way, my pastor has neither gelled hair and does not wear a tight shirt or jeans--at least not during the church service. You misunderstanding and stereotyping of and apparent hatred for evangelicals is distressing, especially in light of the Pope's words.
Romans 1:15 "That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome."
1Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."
1Corinthians 9:16 "Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"
By the way, my pastor has neither gelled hair and does not wear a tight shirt or jeans--at least not during the church service. You misunderstanding and stereotyping of and apparent hatred for evangelicals is distressing, especially in light of the Pope's words.
5.13.2011 | 8:06pm
X says:
Tom,
I'm supposed to listen to what the Pope says? But I thought that you guys say that we're not supposed to. That the pope can't tell you or me what to believe. How many Catholics have twisted using the old Pope Routine? Now you want me to listen to what he says. So which one is it, listen to him or not listen to him? You guys really ought to make up your mind. So, listen to the Pope on this, but not on anything else? Or maybe 50%? You're right, I don't get you guys. First it's listen to the Pope, then it's don't listen what the Pope says, Baptism is necessary, no it isn't, it confers grace, not it doesn't. The Eucharist is partially CHrist, not it isn't it's only a spiritual symbol or it's not a symbol at all or He's there spiritually by he left the rest of himself in at the Mount of Olives, Jesus did it because he ran out crackers that day. Which is the correct answer Tom? TELL ME!!! Please I wan't to know the truth. Is communion to be done every week, once a month, once a year or holidays? Is the Rapture this month, this year, this decade, last year, last decade....before the Tribulation, or after? Is there a Rapture? Yes, no, maybe, let me go to bible college and I'll come back with a different answer. Confess to a priest? No don't confess to anyone or is it do confess, to your accountability parter. Which is it? ..........Ultimately, you neither have the right or the authority to quote scripture to me. It doesn't matter whether I agree with what you're saying or not. When you pick up the Bible and you quote from it to prove something from it, that action has not authority over me, because it's something that has not been given to you. You didn't write the bible, you didn't put it together, so please don't quote scripture to me, try it on a atheist instead.
I'm supposed to listen to what the Pope says? But I thought that you guys say that we're not supposed to. That the pope can't tell you or me what to believe. How many Catholics have twisted using the old Pope Routine? Now you want me to listen to what he says. So which one is it, listen to him or not listen to him? You guys really ought to make up your mind. So, listen to the Pope on this, but not on anything else? Or maybe 50%? You're right, I don't get you guys. First it's listen to the Pope, then it's don't listen what the Pope says, Baptism is necessary, no it isn't, it confers grace, not it doesn't. The Eucharist is partially CHrist, not it isn't it's only a spiritual symbol or it's not a symbol at all or He's there spiritually by he left the rest of himself in at the Mount of Olives, Jesus did it because he ran out crackers that day. Which is the correct answer Tom? TELL ME!!! Please I wan't to know the truth. Is communion to be done every week, once a month, once a year or holidays? Is the Rapture this month, this year, this decade, last year, last decade....before the Tribulation, or after? Is there a Rapture? Yes, no, maybe, let me go to bible college and I'll come back with a different answer. Confess to a priest? No don't confess to anyone or is it do confess, to your accountability parter. Which is it? ..........Ultimately, you neither have the right or the authority to quote scripture to me. It doesn't matter whether I agree with what you're saying or not. When you pick up the Bible and you quote from it to prove something from it, that action has not authority over me, because it's something that has not been given to you. You didn't write the bible, you didn't put it together, so please don't quote scripture to me, try it on a atheist instead.
5.13.2011 | 8:53pm
mike says:
I once attended a few services at a COGIC church because I wanted to see a pentecostal church. It was great. The preaching was great. My favorite part was when an old lady got up and jogged around the pews several times, blowing kisses and saying, over and over again, "I love you! I love you!" Not at all like the church I grew up in. The first time, though, I didn't realize the service was going to be four hours long!
5.13.2011 | 10:00pm
David Gray says:
>If he doesn't, what, I'm going to trade Jesus for some middle aged man with tight shirt and jeans with jelled hair that looks like he's selling Jesus instead of living him.
It is a little bit ironic to hear this coming from someone whose tradition gave us the Clown Mass and the Polka Mass.
It is a little bit ironic to hear this coming from someone whose tradition gave us the Clown Mass and the Polka Mass.
5.14.2011 | 4:15am
maureen says:
Thirty years ago I spent time with some Evangelical Christians, both Baptist and non-denominational. They were very devout and unhesitant in proclaiming their faith in Jesus. It seemed to permeate their lives and influenced me to mature in my Catholic Christian life. During one summer, I attended a weekly Bible study at the home of my son's Kindergarten teacher. One day I invited a Catholic friend to come with me. Her comment when we left summed it up for me, "We talk about it; they live it."
5.14.2011 | 7:07am
B. Baxter says:
It was hardly a continuity of tradition that resulted in the Clown Mass.
Protestants do not have the Eucharist; instead, they have preaching and the Bible. In place of the three pillars on which the Church rests her claim to authority --- scripture being one of them --- in the last few hundred years the Protestants have more and more stripped away any claim to apostolicity and tradition, using merely the Bible as a reference.
In the end, there is one fundamental bit of advice: Pursue truth. All else follows.
Protestants do not have the Eucharist; instead, they have preaching and the Bible. In place of the three pillars on which the Church rests her claim to authority --- scripture being one of them --- in the last few hundred years the Protestants have more and more stripped away any claim to apostolicity and tradition, using merely the Bible as a reference.
In the end, there is one fundamental bit of advice: Pursue truth. All else follows.
5.14.2011 | 8:09am
Joe the Amused says:
My Catholic faith has been strengthened by many wonderful Evangelicals. My first, personal copy of Scripture was given to my by the Gideons and was a wonderful companion all through Jr. High and beyond. Thank you, Evangelicals, for your love of Scripture, love of Christ, personal integrity, courage in the face of pagan culture, and expressiveness. You give wonderful witness!
5.14.2011 | 8:58am
Michael says:
@Dblade
"Catholics don't seem to have that knowledge, and tend to substitute encylicals and papal pronouncements. "
No way. I agree that most Catholics are pretty ignorant of scripture, but I am surprised that anyone thinks that Catholics tend to be at all knowledgeable about things the pope has written!
Most Catholics are not educated in their faith beyond maybe what you might compare to an elementary school level. I doubt the average Catholic has even seen a papal encyclical. Joe and Jane Catholic might have *heard of* one on the news - Humanae Vitae - but they ignore it.
The Cultural Christians/Catholics you talked about don't pay much attention to the pope. Those Catholics who do read the occasional papal encyclical are going to be the type who read the Bible frequently. I think you'd have an extremely difficicult time finding a Catholic who doesn't spend exponentially more time reading Scripure than encyclicals or anything like that. There are plenty who ignore both, there are many who read the Bible but not anything the pope writes, but I doubt there are any who read what the pope writes without reading the Bible too.
The pope plays a much smaller role in the everyday life of a Catholic - even a serious Catholic - than a lot of non-Catholics seem to think. It's a mistake to think that belief in an authority (besides yourself) that intreprets scripture means that any individual scripture reading is fruitless. That's not true at all. How many Ecumenical Councils or declarations of papal dogma have been needed in the last two thousand years?
"Catholics don't seem to have that knowledge, and tend to substitute encylicals and papal pronouncements. "
No way. I agree that most Catholics are pretty ignorant of scripture, but I am surprised that anyone thinks that Catholics tend to be at all knowledgeable about things the pope has written!
Most Catholics are not educated in their faith beyond maybe what you might compare to an elementary school level. I doubt the average Catholic has even seen a papal encyclical. Joe and Jane Catholic might have *heard of* one on the news - Humanae Vitae - but they ignore it.
The Cultural Christians/Catholics you talked about don't pay much attention to the pope. Those Catholics who do read the occasional papal encyclical are going to be the type who read the Bible frequently. I think you'd have an extremely difficicult time finding a Catholic who doesn't spend exponentially more time reading Scripure than encyclicals or anything like that. There are plenty who ignore both, there are many who read the Bible but not anything the pope writes, but I doubt there are any who read what the pope writes without reading the Bible too.
The pope plays a much smaller role in the everyday life of a Catholic - even a serious Catholic - than a lot of non-Catholics seem to think. It's a mistake to think that belief in an authority (besides yourself) that intreprets scripture means that any individual scripture reading is fruitless. That's not true at all. How many Ecumenical Councils or declarations of papal dogma have been needed in the last two thousand years?
5.14.2011 | 9:06am
patricksarsfield says:
Buzz writes to patricksarsfield:
"You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Protestant Reformation, the beliefs and practices of the Protestant churches, or of most Protestant evangelicals."
Not so. I laid out several historical points that Buzz has not addressed. If Buzz wants to make a serious substantive point instead of merely purporting to read my mind, I would be very happy to address it. Otherwise, this is just more proof of my point above that most protestants have not thought through the thefts that so much of the "Reformation" constituted.
"You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the Protestant Reformation, the beliefs and practices of the Protestant churches, or of most Protestant evangelicals."
Not so. I laid out several historical points that Buzz has not addressed. If Buzz wants to make a serious substantive point instead of merely purporting to read my mind, I would be very happy to address it. Otherwise, this is just more proof of my point above that most protestants have not thought through the thefts that so much of the "Reformation" constituted.
5.14.2011 | 10:46am
John says:
I see a lot of comments centered around subjective experience and not many grounded in objective truth. Sadly this is the great divide between Catholics and Evangelicals in a nutshell, and many of us are so shallow in our faith as to pin the hope of our salvation on what feels good rather than on what is good. Possibly the holiest woman of our modern era, Mother Teresa, heroically ministered to the poorest of the poor faithfully for over forty years by virtue of pure objective faith. I think much of the Christian world over the centuries, Catholics included, has lost it's understanding of "Blessed are the poor in spirit."
5.14.2011 | 1:05pm
Corey Young says:
I think the biggest problem is that to many times we have a relationship with our denomination and not enough with God. It does not matter whether you are Catholic or Protestant...the Bible is the word of God and that is all that matters. At a Promise Keepers convention about 10 years ago a speaker got up to speak and he open it up by asking 2 questions. First one was that when he counted to 3 to yell out what their denomination was. He counted to 3 and 20,000 men yelled out their denomination: Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Nazarene, etc. The preacher stepped back and just said "Wow...that is a lot of confusion". Then he asked that when he counted to 3 for everyone to yell out who their Savior was. He counted to 3 and in unison 20,000 men yelled out JESUS! That tells a big story in itself.
5.14.2011 | 3:46pm
MJ says:
Dblade..."...Evangelicals can quote scripture from memory, and bind themselves to the book and its words. Catholics don't seem to have that knowledge, and tend to substitute encylicals and papal pronouncements...."
Hey...don't break your arm patting yourself on the back...about Protestant's "knowledge and binding [yourself ] to the book and its words...". Many protestants can "cut and paste"..."slice and dice" scripture quotes all day long...but...[I emphasize this "but"]...they [ close to 1 billion Protestants in the world today ] can't get the interpretation and understanding right...on many...very critical pieces of scripture. If Protestants "miscue, misunderstand, and misinterpret" the "big pieces"...such as Matthew 16, Luke 22, John 17 & 20, and 1 Cor 11...all the great sermons and quotes are...good...probably very good...but sadly, not really good enough..
In all of my life-long years as a Catholic...I have never...never heard a bad sermon...not one...but I have been "thrown" out of the Sacrament of Confession becasue I had not properly prepared myself (examining my conscience, being truly sorry for my sins, and having a firm purpose to amend my life)...and I am forever grateful for the experience. I am a Catholic because I want my sins forgiven and I want to receive the Real Presence...Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity off Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist...while standing on Calvary at the foot of His Cross. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass frees me from slavery...in time and in my very limited self.
Praying scripture and hearing the Liturgy of the Word (Our Lord speaking in my language, in my day and in my circumstances)... is prayerful meditation and preparation to not just experience the Lord Jesus in heart and mind...but to receive Him...in actual and real experience...in His Real Presence... in the Liturgy of the Eucharist...then go preach the Good News...using words only if absolutely necessary.
Pax Christi
Hey...don't break your arm patting yourself on the back...about Protestant's "knowledge and binding [yourself ] to the book and its words...". Many protestants can "cut and paste"..."slice and dice" scripture quotes all day long...but...[I emphasize this "but"]...they [ close to 1 billion Protestants in the world today ] can't get the interpretation and understanding right...on many...very critical pieces of scripture. If Protestants "miscue, misunderstand, and misinterpret" the "big pieces"...such as Matthew 16, Luke 22, John 17 & 20, and 1 Cor 11...all the great sermons and quotes are...good...probably very good...but sadly, not really good enough..
In all of my life-long years as a Catholic...I have never...never heard a bad sermon...not one...but I have been "thrown" out of the Sacrament of Confession becasue I had not properly prepared myself (examining my conscience, being truly sorry for my sins, and having a firm purpose to amend my life)...and I am forever grateful for the experience. I am a Catholic because I want my sins forgiven and I want to receive the Real Presence...Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity off Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist...while standing on Calvary at the foot of His Cross. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass frees me from slavery...in time and in my very limited self.
Praying scripture and hearing the Liturgy of the Word (Our Lord speaking in my language, in my day and in my circumstances)... is prayerful meditation and preparation to not just experience the Lord Jesus in heart and mind...but to receive Him...in actual and real experience...in His Real Presence... in the Liturgy of the Eucharist...then go preach the Good News...using words only if absolutely necessary.
Pax Christi
5.14.2011 | 4:35pm
mcon says:
After reading the posts for this column, most if not all of you should read "On being Catholic" by Thomas Howard. It is a short read but it will educate you about Catholic beliefs and practices. You needent guess or repeat false statements that you have heard from your friends. Catholics can learn from it and Protesants can learn from it, if you have any desire to know the truth about "being Catholic". If not then just go on with your miconceptions. (read the summary and reviews about it on Amazon. You will not be disappointed.)
5.14.2011 | 11:43pm
Dave E says:
Colleen, I concur with your thoughts on this. I am firmly Catholic, but Evangelicals have helped me out a great deal at various points. One in particular was a missionary I met while working (for a mining company) in Africa. He asked me "do you know Jesus?", and I said, "I believe in him". Then he said, "Yeah, but do you know him?", to which I replied, "I want to!", which he seemed to think was a satisfactory response. That brief meeting had a real effect on me, and was part of a process where I began to take my Catholic faith more seriously.
5.14.2011 | 11:55pm
patricksarsfield says:
Corey Young writes:
"I think the biggest problem is that to many times we have a relationship with our denomination and not enough with God. It does not matter whether you are Catholic or Protestant...the Bible is the word of God and that is all that matters."
Ah yes! The old "denominations don't matter" pitch. Protestants have to make a sales pitch like this because they cannot make a credible claim to being the Visible Church Christ founded. So after they go out and found their own branded denominations (or now their own "non-denominational" denominations), they next argue that denominations are not important. Yet to be logical: if denominations are not important: why are there so many? Logic suggests that if differences among denominations were not important , there would be fewer rather than more of them.
What is really going on? Because Protestant ministers want to be able to use the stories in the Bible to sell their brand of religion and they are stuck with the fact that that Bible shows that Jesus founded a Church in the First Century AD, they need to claim to be part of that church. So they have stretched the concept of an invisible church to comprehend their own churches as well as the Catholic Church, even though they are competing with the Catholic Church for the allegiance of christians. Christ told us to listen to the Church (Luke 18); He did not saay to listen to the Churchc of your Choice. Nor did He commission His Apostles to found churches of their own church to teach what ever they decided to based on their own readings of the Bible. Instead, He commissioned them to go out to all the World and to teach all nations to observe all that He commanded. Not a lot of room there for different denominations teaching different things. So, because protestant ministers don't want their claims to being Christ's Church looked at too closely, they make up nonsense like this: that it doesn't make a difference what denomination you belong to.
"I think the biggest problem is that to many times we have a relationship with our denomination and not enough with God. It does not matter whether you are Catholic or Protestant...the Bible is the word of God and that is all that matters."
Ah yes! The old "denominations don't matter" pitch. Protestants have to make a sales pitch like this because they cannot make a credible claim to being the Visible Church Christ founded. So after they go out and found their own branded denominations (or now their own "non-denominational" denominations), they next argue that denominations are not important. Yet to be logical: if denominations are not important: why are there so many? Logic suggests that if differences among denominations were not important , there would be fewer rather than more of them.
What is really going on? Because Protestant ministers want to be able to use the stories in the Bible to sell their brand of religion and they are stuck with the fact that that Bible shows that Jesus founded a Church in the First Century AD, they need to claim to be part of that church. So they have stretched the concept of an invisible church to comprehend their own churches as well as the Catholic Church, even though they are competing with the Catholic Church for the allegiance of christians. Christ told us to listen to the Church (Luke 18); He did not saay to listen to the Churchc of your Choice. Nor did He commission His Apostles to found churches of their own church to teach what ever they decided to based on their own readings of the Bible. Instead, He commissioned them to go out to all the World and to teach all nations to observe all that He commanded. Not a lot of room there for different denominations teaching different things. So, because protestant ministers don't want their claims to being Christ's Church looked at too closely, they make up nonsense like this: that it doesn't make a difference what denomination you belong to.
5.15.2011 | 1:57am
Steve Martin says:
I was raised a Catholic and then attended Baptist (non-denominational) churches for some time.
I could see a great theological similarity in them. They both were semi-Pelagian , although they would never admit it.
The sermons quite often (at both denominations) would find their way back to 'you', and what you should or ought be doing to be a better Catholic, or believer.
Then I stumbled upon something truly different, where self transcendence wasn't the order of the day but rather 'dying and being raised', over and over and over again.
It's actually quite liberating.
I could see a great theological similarity in them. They both were semi-Pelagian , although they would never admit it.
The sermons quite often (at both denominations) would find their way back to 'you', and what you should or ought be doing to be a better Catholic, or believer.
Then I stumbled upon something truly different, where self transcendence wasn't the order of the day but rather 'dying and being raised', over and over and over again.
It's actually quite liberating.
5.15.2011 | 3:17am
Michael Snow says:
After Vatican II there was a big push to encourage Bible study in the Catholic Church. I well remember going to an evening Bible study with some Catholic friends at their church. It was excellent and very edifying.
As for the complaints about the lectionary, God can certainly use that as well, or certainly at tmes, better, than, the free choice method. A friend of mine, having his first Mass at his home church. had for the days text the passage about the woman who wanted to be healed and had exhausted her money on physicians. I remember him smiling and saying that it was a very interesting text.
My friend happens to be a physician, and among the attendees at his celebration of his first Mass were many of the leading physicians of the city!
As for the complaints about the lectionary, God can certainly use that as well, or certainly at tmes, better, than, the free choice method. A friend of mine, having his first Mass at his home church. had for the days text the passage about the woman who wanted to be healed and had exhausted her money on physicians. I remember him smiling and saying that it was a very interesting text.
My friend happens to be a physician, and among the attendees at his celebration of his first Mass were many of the leading physicians of the city!
5.15.2011 | 8:56am
Mike says:
Karen's comment seems to say that good preaching is all you need. Good preaching is, well, "good", no doubt. But what is being preached? I know charismatic people that could read the back of a Tylenol bottle and keep you at the edge of your seat. With Sola Scriptura, Protestantism offers much preaching, but also very inconsistent preaching.
If the apex of a Protestant service is the preaching, the apex of a Mass is the offering of the Eucharist. Two very different and distinct situations, which point directly to the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism. On a personal note, it could not be more clear which is more important.
I was raised in a house that was lukewarm to church overall. Dad was Protestant, mom was a lapsed Catholic. It was dad's criticisms of mom's Catholicism that forced me to look into both belief systems. And after years of straddling the middle, and wanting the 'best of both worlds', it was Catholicism I chose, hands down.
If the apex of a Protestant service is the preaching, the apex of a Mass is the offering of the Eucharist. Two very different and distinct situations, which point directly to the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism. On a personal note, it could not be more clear which is more important.
I was raised in a house that was lukewarm to church overall. Dad was Protestant, mom was a lapsed Catholic. It was dad's criticisms of mom's Catholicism that forced me to look into both belief systems. And after years of straddling the middle, and wanting the 'best of both worlds', it was Catholicism I chose, hands down.
5.15.2011 | 9:03am
Mike says:
Corey writes: "...the Bible is the word of God and that is all that matters."
Well, let's see what the Bible says about that...
II Timothy 3:16-17; “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work”.
"Profitable", not sufficient.
From dictionary.com:
prof·it·a·ble
[prof-i-tuh-buhl] Show IPA
–adjective
beneficial or useful.
suf·fi·cient
[suh-fish-uhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
adequate for the purpose; enough: sufficient proof; sufficient protection.
Well, let's see what the Bible says about that...
II Timothy 3:16-17; “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work”.
"Profitable", not sufficient.
From dictionary.com:
prof·it·a·ble
[prof-i-tuh-buhl] Show IPA
–adjective
beneficial or useful.
suf·fi·cient
[suh-fish-uhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
adequate for the purpose; enough: sufficient proof; sufficient protection.
5.15.2011 | 10:04am
Craig Payne says:
Does anyone else think the tone and substance of the thread has veered quite a bit from the initial article?
5.15.2011 | 10:54am
Anthony Mogilin says:
Interesting post I wasn't aware of the most of New Jersey didnt have mega churches I guess there was not much room with all of those skyscrapers towering the city. I personally went to a catholic college and regularly attended mass and helped out with extra cirriculua activities by helping the community.
5.15.2011 | 12:35pm
Therese Z says:
The old saying goes "Protestants memorize Scripture and Catholics memorize prayers." We Catholics know more Scripture than we think, we are just not connected to the Bible thoroughly enough to be able to pull out the book that a prayer of the Mass or a general prayer comes from. And that's a shame, because too many Catholics (me included at one time) don't exactly know where to start when we want to spend more time in Scripture.
Heaven knows we're given enough info to do it, the readings go through a cycle week after week, day after day, and we could read the rest of book if we chose to, but we're not always encouraged to.
One of our priests is a pretty fine sermonizer and the other two are Father PC Platitudes.
But I talk to devout Protestants who never seem to be aware of the timeline of the stories of Jesus' life because they have no liturgical year. They've never heard sermons on large parts of the Gospel (oddly, the Epistles they cover better). They also don't seem to have good connection to the Book of Revelation. Since we see the Mass celebrated there, in the company of the Communion of Saints including the Blessed Mother, even the less-involved parishioner seems to get it, if asked.
Heaven knows we're given enough info to do it, the readings go through a cycle week after week, day after day, and we could read the rest of book if we chose to, but we're not always encouraged to.
One of our priests is a pretty fine sermonizer and the other two are Father PC Platitudes.
But I talk to devout Protestants who never seem to be aware of the timeline of the stories of Jesus' life because they have no liturgical year. They've never heard sermons on large parts of the Gospel (oddly, the Epistles they cover better). They also don't seem to have good connection to the Book of Revelation. Since we see the Mass celebrated there, in the company of the Communion of Saints including the Blessed Mother, even the less-involved parishioner seems to get it, if asked.
5.15.2011 | 3:26pm
Neal Battaglia says:
Catholic priest is not all monotone when they preaching in the church, why some people keep think generalize >.>
5.15.2011 | 5:17pm
JAM says:
Like the author, I too am grateful to some Protestants for helping me be a better Catholic. That I don't find Protestant theological arguments to be persuasive or even particularly logical doesn't much matter. What does matter is that I witnessed the power of faith first-hand in a group of Romanian Baptists in the town of Hunedoara in the mid-1980's and that experience helped me eventually to return to the Catholic faith of my childhood from which I had fallen away.
Long story short: I was with the American Embassy at the time and was assigned, with another officer, to go to Hunedoara to be present at the trial of a Baptist minister accused of fraud in the sale of a car. It was trumped up and everyone knew it but the Romanian government had long been after this small group of Baptists and this was its latest action against them. My colleague and I were simply to sit in the courtroom and watch, our presence indicating the US government's interest in this human rights case.
We watched as the minister predictably was convicted. As we left, about 20 members of his congregation approached us and thanked us for being there. They were doing something I hardly ever saw Romanians do. They were smiling. Our conversations made it clear to me that, whatever would happen to them, these people were strengthened by their faith. It was a powerful witness.
It didn't make me want to be a Baptist - and I could not disagree more with Corey's statement that "the Bible is ... all that matters" - but it did make me think about faith again for the first time in quite a few years. It was another six years or so before I returned to the Church, but that event kick-started the process.
I will always be grateful to that small group of persecuted Baptists for the gift they gave me.
Long story short: I was with the American Embassy at the time and was assigned, with another officer, to go to Hunedoara to be present at the trial of a Baptist minister accused of fraud in the sale of a car. It was trumped up and everyone knew it but the Romanian government had long been after this small group of Baptists and this was its latest action against them. My colleague and I were simply to sit in the courtroom and watch, our presence indicating the US government's interest in this human rights case.
We watched as the minister predictably was convicted. As we left, about 20 members of his congregation approached us and thanked us for being there. They were doing something I hardly ever saw Romanians do. They were smiling. Our conversations made it clear to me that, whatever would happen to them, these people were strengthened by their faith. It was a powerful witness.
It didn't make me want to be a Baptist - and I could not disagree more with Corey's statement that "the Bible is ... all that matters" - but it did make me think about faith again for the first time in quite a few years. It was another six years or so before I returned to the Church, but that event kick-started the process.
I will always be grateful to that small group of persecuted Baptists for the gift they gave me.
5.15.2011 | 7:29pm
Watchman says:
Bottom line is: We won't be saved by quoting scripture, or even praying many words. There is the written word, and there is the living word.2 covenants!
5.15.2011 | 7:29pm
msc says:
Sigh: how quickly the tone of the comments became hostile and sectarian. If so small a group as readers of First Things cannot be charitable and generous in their interpretation of the faith, what hope is there for greater Christian cooperation?
Speaking as an adult Catholic convert, the type of intense, community-oriented experience Colleen describes horrifies me. One of the things I like most about the Catholic church is it quieter, more private, atmosphere. I don't want my church experience to be so social and like going to some service club. I don't want shouts of alleluluia to disturb my contemplation and focus on the Mass. I want an atmosphere of reverence. But then I admit I have strong eremetic tendencies.
Speaking as an adult Catholic convert, the type of intense, community-oriented experience Colleen describes horrifies me. One of the things I like most about the Catholic church is it quieter, more private, atmosphere. I don't want my church experience to be so social and like going to some service club. I don't want shouts of alleluluia to disturb my contemplation and focus on the Mass. I want an atmosphere of reverence. But then I admit I have strong eremetic tendencies.
5.15.2011 | 11:27pm
edmond says:
Apples and oranges? If we speak about the mass we speak not only of the liturgy of the word but we also speak of the liturgy of the eucharist. Though I admit many priest are not gifted preachers, they are there also for the more crucial balance of the celebration and that is the communion that seals community and God. I speak as a catholic on his second time around, coming from baptist churches and others. I admit that there are great preachers in the protestant churches that keep you from dozing off. But over and above receiving the inspirations from these evangelists, there is the communion. When we go to mass, isn't it more about what we bring to the altar?
5.15.2011 | 11:29pm
Mark VA says:
"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words"
I believe that preaching with words should be short and to the point - Jesus shows us how. Preaching thru charitable acts is even a more powerful witness than words. Here, again, Jesus shows us how.
Preaching the gospel of Christ via other media, such as music, art, or architecture, is a somewhat different matter. Here, for example, we can look to some of the inspired works of Mozart and Bernini, to hear and see how it should be done correctly.
I believe that preaching with words should be short and to the point - Jesus shows us how. Preaching thru charitable acts is even a more powerful witness than words. Here, again, Jesus shows us how.
Preaching the gospel of Christ via other media, such as music, art, or architecture, is a somewhat different matter. Here, for example, we can look to some of the inspired works of Mozart and Bernini, to hear and see how it should be done correctly.
5.16.2011 | 10:56am
Steve says:
We've got great preachers (homilists) coming out of the archdiocese of Portland in Oregon. Mt. Angel seems to be doing a fantastic job. Our priests are landing in their parishes on fire, and are doing well in the pulpit. It's breathing life and lighting fires under the senior pastors as well, not that they all need it.
6.7.2011 | 4:33pm
Su Gradley says:
I once attended a few services at a COGIC church because I wanted to see a pentecostal church. It was great. The preaching was great. My favorite part was when an old lady got up and jogged around the pews several times, blowing kisses and saying, over and over again, "I love you! I love you!" Not at all like the church I grew up in. The first time, though, I didn't realize the service was going to be four hours long! Karen While I agree with you that preaching at Mass needs improvement and am inspired by a good sermon, the Mass is not really about preaching. Vatican II led to more stress on the Word of God, in other words, the Scriptures, true. But the Mass is really about the Sacrifice on the altar- the Eucharist , the Body and the Blood. Indeed, it would still be Mass even if there was no sermon at all, or just a few sentences, as is sometimes the case at a week-day Mass. Fortunately for some of our priests, we never have the opportunity to vote them in or out based on their preaching ability{smile}. Then again , some of the most effective priests I have known over the years have not been great speakers. The emphasis is different. I agree that improvement is needed.
