The Bishops wish to re-establish the practice of Friday penance in the lives of the faithful as a clear and distinctive mark of their own Catholic identity. They recognise that the best habits are those which are acquired as part of a common resolve and common witness. It is important that all the faithful be united in a common celebration of Friday penance.

A wonderful reflection - thank you so much. As a young-ish (30) Catholic in England, I have been quite startled by the resistance to this announcement in some quarters. I was unaware that the communal Friday abstinence from meat was supposed to be replaced by something more personal and so have never done anything. This gives me a simple sacrifice to make for my faith (I love having a steak on a Friday!) and to express it with others. However, phrases flying around here include "backward/retrograde step" . . . "against the spirit of VII" . . . "clericalism" . . . "stifling of personal expression". At the root of all the complaints though seems to be that one word that many consider so burdensome (but as somebody who moderately institutionalised at boarding school and loved it) and that your article focusses on "obedience". We live in a society that hates any authority other than the "I".

Good to read this , esp. since Fridays now have become occasions of much worldiness, esp. among the young , occasions to forget all about our calling to live and love in the power of our Lord, witnessing to His glory esp. on The Cross , garnered in the strengt and trust of love , for The Father , from The Father and for us , who too are His children, who in His Divinity , is One with The Father !

Thus , the culture at large , esp. Catholics , get to access that power of trusting in His love ,His Holy Spirit , enabling them to do what can be done , from that identification of what He did , to strengthen us and all others too - for we are a royal priesthood , that stand with Him, to free others too who feel unable to break away from the grips of the flesh and the world, who have become slaves to unruly appetites , in many areas !

Even that taste of 'freedom ' after Vatican too can be seen as a step in growth that helped many to recognise the deeper truths of doing things, in such trusting love of His strenght .

Good thing that the Bishops recognised all this and may be this too is a fruit of honoring The Father and His representative , Pope Benedict !

Let us all offer up, uniting all moments of all our pains or lacks , bad cooking and all , uniing with His who too undertook fasting , inorder thus to be able to call on His Name and strenght , into all such areas with renewed trust , to see enemy strongholds that keep us away from that trust , to see them come tumbling down !

May our bl.Mother whose intercession too possibly is what helped her sons , help us all too , by presenting and uniting all our efforts to that of The Son , to bring His Kingdom of peace and dignity into many hearts !

God Bless !

When I lived in a Benedictine monastery, the most difficult thing was to put away my grand plans and follow a simple path of obedience. For example, my cell had nothing extra in it...It was bare...and I was secretly proud of that accomplishment. Other monks had radios, personal items hanging from the walls, personal junk on shelves. Some had a bottle "for special occasions" in a drawer. Not me, my room was bare...until one day the novice master wisely told me to keep some little trinket that a priest had given me. He said that under no circumstances should I remove it from my cell. Everyday it just sat there on a shelf tearing at my pride and "ruining my perfection".
Yes, simple obedience is a difficult path indeed. The lil' Flower had it right. Just washing the dishes or sweeping or dusting for the Lord, in humble obedience, is like a bouquet of flowers.

Hope that many would use this as an occasion to discover the health and even taste benefits of simple dishes where lentils of many varieties , cooked and flavored, if so desired , by adding enough onions and garlic , a little of either / both red and black pepper and may be cumin , sauteed in olive oil and mixed with some plain yogurt and green vegetables on the side can be a healthy , tasty and environement friendly diet !

Lentils are a good source of magnesium that is lacking in many diets and a cause of health problems ( even heart attacks ! ) and of childern being hyper !

The whole world turning to use lentils as staple might be good for export needs of the African continent also !

Finally, bringing the fasts back. In the early church, holding to the fasts was a mark of being a faithful Christian.

Next would be to reinstate the Wednesday fast to the Latin Tradition, because we are all Judas in our own way. Or at least make the Friday fast more comprehensive than meat (to the older tradition), that is meat, dairy, wine, and oil for all the animal passions on all Weds and Fri.

My husband and I went back to meatless Fridays decades ago, when we realized that it was too easy to forget to pick a penance. The irony in Catholics wanting to be 'treated like adults' is that many act so childish about it. Trying to convince the typical Catholic that we are supposed to be picking our own penance usually gets blank stares and arguments.

My husband and I started observing meatless Fridays a few years ago. We offer it up for the unborn and pray for those women pregnant in our world today who are not thinking of motherhood.

Great article and great comments.
As an NFP teacher, I spend exhaustive amounts of energy defending Church teaching- to laity and clergy. And I still do a rather mediocre job of trying to explain something that is done out of love and obedience. I try to keep quiet about my family's meatless Fridays; partly out of humility and partly out of wanting to avoid the discussion (and I'm not a coward, I'm just tired and hoarse!) My concern, if the US decides to follow suit, is more defending of the faith to people I can't reach. I keep praying that I can live by example (it will save my vocal cords!). God bless!

I find the comment "'re-infantilize' the faithful instead of treating them like adults" funny. Sounds like a teenager complaining about not being treated as an adult. The very tantrum reveals that they aren't ready.

I like corporate acts. It's one of the things I like about being Catholic. We're all doing something together. During mass we all do and say the same things. We keep the same liturgical calendar. We all sit in line for confession. I have a hard time concentrating on the rosary when I pray it with others in church before mass, but I still like to do it. These things we do together do "hold us together as a people." I'm not doing this thing alone.

I like the idea of a mandated meatless Friday. I know we are suppose to sacrifice something on Fridays, but I don't seem to be able to get there. If I HAVE to, I will do it better than I do at penance now. Is that infantile? That I have weaknesses that I need help with? In that case, I will probably never be an adult.

"MEATLESS FRIDAYS IN ENGLAND AND WALES"

I hope the lil "obligation" to abstain from meat on Fridays will be reintroduced into the Christian life of today's Catholics in this country. In my own life, if I happen to eat meat on a Friday for whatever reason, I try to make up for it with a little act of self-denial, like reciting the rosary. The Church in this country has determined that, if a person eats meat on Friday, he or she should replace it with a little sacrifice. Today's young people will love this invitation to offer up their sacrifices. They never hear this challenge from "the world" they live in.

Gino Dalpiaz

I enjoyed this. I have been meatless on Fridays for years now. but, I must say that after reading the US bishops' document on the lifting of the requirement, and some commentaries on it, I have concluded that we are not, strictrly speaking, forced to do a penance or something else to make up for eating meat on Friday. The document simply doesn't say we need to do that.

I too did not realize for many years that we were supposed to choose another penance, and I consider myself one of those "informed Catholics." So I chose to return to the Friday abstinence practice and have done so for several years now. It is a nuisance at times but not a burden. No lobster but shrimp at times. I have learned to appreciate tuna noodle casseroles, macaroni and cheese, egg salad sandwiches and other delights of Fridays in my Catholic childhood. There is much to be said for the sense of solidarity and belonging it fostered too. I hope that the U.S. Church reintroduces it.

I'm a bit startled by this.

I have nothing against penance, or my need for it. What strikes me is not an objection to penitential observance or even the abstinence from meat on Friday. Instead, I am shocked by how so utterly ravaged Catholicism has become by the need to claim cultural space and identity rather than simply to be Catholic and Christian however we are called to do it in the twenty-first century.

Appeals to "nostalgia," "cultural commonality," and even "obedience" are poor substitutes for appeals to the simple demand of the Gospel to love which, itself, induces humility.

The Council did, indeed, attempt "to treat us like adults," and, indeed, this would reverse that by returning the penitential observance to conformity as it was instead of the conscious choice the Council permitted it to become. I have no faith this is a step forward, spiritually.

Worse, and for those reasons, I am not convinced it makes us any more Catholic if we are penitent in our conformity, rather than by our free choice.

Like so much in the secular world, they will know us not by our love...but, rather, by our brand.

"We 'pause' at a stop sign." This is an act of secular obedience? The sign says STOP, not PAUSE!

No wonder some find it difficult to practice the virtue of obedience.

Hi all,

This is a good read since I always asked myself why some religions don't allow pork on their meals during times like holy weeks or some other times when abstinence is required. I never thought they had "options"!!!

Thanks for this!

Although I was born shortly after Vatican II, where I come from, "Meatless Friday" was still always seen as a "Catholic Thing". It was, as I recall a teacher in my catholic grade school saying, "...an outward sign of who we are on the inside." I think his point was that it was something we could do to show to a world that at the time didn't do things expressly for ecological reasons or nutritional reasons or whatever sound-byte reason du jour we have now that we consciously made a "real" sacrifice every week.

Another teacher also said that this weekly sacrifice also helped us "come together", that we could all do this as a Catholic community.

I also remember a priest telling us that not eating meat on Friday was a way to remember and keep Good Friday with us all year long.

The answer I received most was from relatives: "It's just something Catholics do."

I guess now that I am older, not eating meat on Fridays is still a "Catholic thing" to do. I like the ritual. I like the slowing down and stopping and taking stock of what I am doing aspect of it. I don't do it to save the environment, or because it is ecologically sound, or even because it is healthier. I guess I do it because it ties me to a Catholic history. I am sure that there are some who would say that is a juvenile reason or a theologically unsound reason, and they may be right, but it is still me being in the moment and thinking about who I am, where I come from, and ultimately, where and with Whom I desperately want to be one day.

As for an aversion to the word and concept of "obedience", to the right person and for the right reason, it can be the most liberating and satisfying state. Besides, embracing it can be an EXCELLENT way of working on overcoming the sin of Pride and the gaping maw that is Self.

As a Protestant who has benefitted much from reading good Catholic writers and apologists for the Christian faith, please do not take what follows as Roman Catholic bashing. I've also known some wonderful Catholics who are full of the Spirit of Jesus with lives that reflect the obedience of faith.

I have far too many memories in my dormitory in college of Catholics who were fastidious about meatless Fridays but who were not at all inhibited to drink alcohol to excess and for whom fornication was of no concern. I remember one Friday evening....midnight was approaching and a group of (self-professed??) Catholics were waiting for the delivery of meat-topped pizzas, not to be eaten before "Saturday" of course. I asked them on what grounds they felt confident before God that observing this tradition was essential, but ignoring the plain teaching of Scripture regarding drunkenness and sexual immorality was of no concern. The answer gave the impression that as long as a Catholic goes to confession and makes it to Mass and observes the Lenten traditions, how ones lives and behaves is irrelevant.

This experience made me wonder if anyone taught that we are to "walk in a manner worthy of our calling" or that obedience is the fruit of faith, and that lack of fruit is
evidence that faith is missing. G.K. Chesterton wrote that he gave thanks to God for beer and wine by not drinking too much of it. He wrote much about sexual fidelity.

A community of believers joining together to observe a "fast" can be a powerful thing. But I wonder if Catholics might be better served to place more emphasis on being better taught and exhorted from Scripture leading to a deeper encounter with God that expresses itself in prayer and praise, and producing music such as Bach's, versus efforts to get everyone to "do a particular thing." The atrophied Protestant version of this sort of thing is to exhort everyone in the congregation to participate in the bake sale to raise funds for the purchase of new choir robes. Apostolic preaching and teaching has always brought renewal to the Church. And without it "meatless" Fridays and other observances will not be fruitful. As Paul said, "faith comes by hearing......"

@GlennB: You're right, of course—just as an athlete who does all his training but gluts himself before a race will not run well, so too those who see fasting as an end in itself will reap as they have sown. That is why the Orthodox Church's hymns remind us that "This is the true fast: the casting off of evil, the bridling of the tongue, the cutting off of anger, the cessation of lusts, evil talking, lies and cursing. The stopping of these is the fast true and acceptable." Still, it does not follow that fasting solely because it's what one does is therefore a bad thing. As St. John Chrysostom wrote, "O Lord, even if I have not done anything good before Thee, grant me by Thy grace to make a good beginning." Fasting is not an end in itself, but as a beginning to obedience, it's a decent start.

For believers who understand the living faith of the Church; those who have experienced "knowing him in the breaking of bread" during the Eucharist; those who have "heard" the biblical stories of Old and New Testaments both at Mass and in private study, the comment by "GlennB" is a source of sadness.

But surely Mr. GlennB understands that his anecdote demonstrates only that the group of students with whom he came in contact had a deeply flawed understanding of their faith. In fact they were profoundly mistaken. No such teaching ever existed within the authentic Catholic faith.

Abstaining from meat on Fridays is certainly not central to the faith. Catholics do indeed "place more emphasis" on sacrament and word "leading to a deeper encounter with God". It is however a discipline not analogous to participating in a bake sale for any particular purpose. It is much closer to training in order to win a race, although in this case the "prize" sought is holiness.

Half of the time I remember to pray or give alms on Friday, but only in Lent and Advent am I 100% faithful. It can be hard to find cheap meat-less meals in NYC! Once I walked 20 blocks before locating a pizza place -- and before that I'd believed there was one on every other block.

One Lent I bought lunch each Friday at a halal street-cart, and the owner was aghast that I just wanted rice & salad. Lent was new to him, a Muslim. He was impressed! And I realized in an odd way that all those meatless Fridays were indeed familial and community-minded, but also witnessing.

Go England and Wales! Perhaps a simple thing like obedience to the Friday fast would inspire some (though perhaps not those poor college kids) to avoid sin, as does the wearing of a crucifix, and somewhat analogous to the "broken window" phenomenon in crime prevention. (We reject the wisdom of our ancestors at our peril.) May this move inspire bishops elsewhere!

†

There are some of us who have never discontinued the practice of abstinence from meat on Fridays and well as on Wednesdays (except during the Christmas and Easter Seasons when such is forbidden). Vatican II did not dispense w/the Friday abstinence per se; rather it was recommended that it be a voluntary abstinence since there are many who for various reasons cannot abstain from meat. What was intended was the elimination of numerous "waivers" required. Hence a common sense approach to such a practice. He who can - do. He who cannot - don't.

The Wednesday abstinence is an old tradition w/in the monastic life which many Catholics adhered to before and after Vatican II. Though perhaps not as widely practiced as the Friday is resonates still w/in Catholicism.

Bl. John Newman has an excellent sermon re this subject which preceded Vatican II wherein he gives thoughtful expression to the reasoning behind such disciplines.

Yes, my namesake, Steve, Catholicism (and sacrifice and penance) has been "utterly ravaged." Branding has little to do with the practice. I would suggest trying it and seeing if you don't realize the beneficence of the undertaking. Pax.

As a convert, once I became aware of the penitential aspect of Fridays, our family has been meatless for several decades. Catholics had abandoned the practice and new Catholics were picking it up. It was an easy way to introduce the uniqueness of Friday and of a willing sacrifice to our children.

Just for gp, I do like Alaskan King crab and I do like lobster. Should someone above me on the comment list want to invite me to Red Lobster, I'll enjoy the meatless feast.

Cordially,

dt

While I am not Catholic (though baptized Catholic, due to my parents divorcing I was raised Protestant), I married a Catholic, who has always forgone meat on Fridays. I found your post on this very interesting, and will be sending the link to my husband, as I think he will find it interesting as well.

I was raised as an Anglican. Our family always abstained from meat on Fridays. Our priest advised as much, and a comment on fasting and abstinence in the Book of Common Prayer (Canada 1959) also named Friday as a day of abstinence and fasting.

Thanks for this article,as always,thought provoking. My husband and I have tried to stay meatless on Fridays for over a decade now. If we are dinner guests or the situation is such that we can't avoid meat, then we forgo dessert,or wine,sometimes you need to be imaginative.
I have loved Rumer Godden since I first read "An Episode of Sparrows" in grade nine. My fave quote from In This House..... is Philippa 'One of the good things about a Catholic church is that it isn't respectable,' she told Richard. 'You can find anyone in it, from duchesses to whores, from tramps to kings.' p22.

Obedience/disobedience tension

Obedience is good. Humility is good. Having someone over us to shepherd and guide us is good. To have our wants not be the center of the universe is good.

And to disobey an abuser or a fraud or a sicko or a terrorist, even if they are in a position of authority, is good. There are times when disobedience is more faithful.

Glenn B writes:

"I have far too many memories in my dormitory in college of Catholics who were fastidious about meatless Fridays but who were not at all inhibited to drink alcohol to excess and for whom fornication was of no concern."

I am glad you said that you didn't mean that as Catholic-bashing. One question, though: as to Protestants and fornication: is that something that doesn't go on in Protestant communities among bible-readers?

Now, don't take this as Protestant-bashing either, Glenn, but aren't the examples of Catholics behaving simply matters of individual choice, in contradistinction to a general Protestant ecclesiastical apostasy on the issue of the indissolubility of Christian Marriage despite all the Bible reading that Protestants do? You know: ""Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." (Mark 10:11-12)

This is great post. One thing I know from this post is that sharing is the greatest thing we should do. I think every person would understand the beauty of giving. Any kind of gift, I even believe that smile is the best gift to our beloved ones.

For a while now I have been using the word obedience around my friends. I think some of the major and minor problems we have are because of disobedience. For me, as you said, obedience is calming. Someone has thought out how a thing can be better for me. I become disturbed when a priest changes things around at Mass because I see him as being DISOBEDIENT. Didn't all our problems begin when Eve ate a piece of fruit. If one stopped to analyze this command it does seem rather minor BUT God was testing their obedience not their intelligence. Commandments etc. don't always make sense BUT they are there for a reason. When my adult children were kids I often told them to do or not to do something and didn't give a reason because I was their mother and wanted to test their obedience. When we tell a toddler not to cross the street and then we say it firmly as WE see a car coming we expect instant compliance IF we have trained them properly. I am a very fiesty woman and appreciate the order of my wonderful Catholic faith. I was one of those who did not know that it was necessary to choose my own Friday penance until a couple of years ago. An entire generation lost this practice and many of them left the church over this change.

The Body of Christ is severely weakened (almost to the point of death)having been infected by the two deadly STDs (socially transmitted diseases) of Feminism and Homosexualism. And The Body of Christ became weak and subject to infection because we, as Christians, have abandoned the ancient practices of Penance, especially fasting.

Luke 13:3 ... but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Friday is a Universal, Mandatory Day of Penance. How many of us, instead of abstaining from meat, will be eating barbecue, hot dogs, hamburgers, or standing patiently before The Carving Station at the local Mr. Creosote Café?

Scourged and lashed by the Flagrums wielded by Feminists and
Homosexuals,The Catholic Church in America has been driven to its own Calvary and the very worst part of that savage truth is that we have done it to ourselves by laxity in Penance and, especially, Fasting from flesh. On Fridays, we Christians are fast to McDonalds and Last to Fast and so we have become weak girlie-men and our Church has become a sick joke.

Compare your local Parish to your local Orthodox Church. Can you even imagine the men in those Orthodox Churches doing nothing if their Bishop began The Divine Liturgy with a joke and then proceeded to change the words of their Sacred Rite? They’d throw him out of The Church on his ear.

Can you imagine your Orthodox brothers sitting passively by while brain-dead barbarians came into their Church and began removing The Iconostasis and replacing it with some Felt Banners festooned with Renew Tree images?

Of course you can’t imagine Orthodox men sitting still for that. The Orthodox Church is still run by men, not feminised and homosexualised males,and the Orthodox Church is filled with men, not feminised and homosexualised males,and one significant reason the Orthodox Church retains Tradition and remains masculine is that they, largely, have retained the ancient disciplines of Penance and Fasting.

Of course old school Catholics know there is an Iron Law that teaches that where there is a decrease in Penance and Fasting axiomatically there will be an increase in femininity and perversion:

The Liturgical Year, Dom Gueranger: The History of Lent

St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, St. Jerome, and St. Gregory the Great, make the remark, that the commandment put upon our first parents in the earthly paradise was one of abstinence; and that it was by their not exercising this virtue, that they brought every kind of evil upon themselves and upon us their children. The life of privation, which the king of creation had thenceforward to lead on the earth (for the earth was to yield him nothing of its own natural growth, save thorns and thistles), was the clearest possible exemplification of the law of penance imposed by the anger of God on rebellious man.During the two thousand and more years, which preceded the deluge, men had no other food than the fruits of the earth, and these were obtained only by the toil of hard labour. But when God, as we have already observed, mercifully shortened man's life that so he might have less time and power for
sin, He permitted him to eat the flesh of animals, as an
additional nourishment in that state of deteriorated strength.

It was then, also, that Noe, guided by a divine inspiration,
extracted the juice of the grape, which thus formed a second stay for human debility.Fasting, then, is abstinence from such
nourishments as these, which were permitted for the support of
bodily strength. And firstly, it consists in abstinence from
flesh-meat, because this food was given to man by God out of
condescension to his weakness, and not as one absolutely essential for the maintenance of life. Its privation, greater or less according to the regulations of the Church, is essential to the very notion of fasting....

The same Pope (Benedict XIV), whose spirit of moderation has never been called in question, had no sooner ascended the papal throne, than he addressed an encyclical letter to the bishops of the Catholic world, expressing his heartfelt grief at seeing the great relaxation that was introduced among the faithful by indiscreet and unnecessary dispensations. The letter is dated May 30, 1741.

We extract from it the following passage: 'The observance of Lent is the very badge of the Christian warfare. By it we prove ourselves not to be enemies of the cross of Christ. By it we avert the scourges of divine justice. By it we gain strength against the princes of darkness, for it shields us with heavenly help. Should mankind grow remiss in their observance of Lent, it would be a detriment to God's glory, a disgrace to the Catholic religion, and a danger to Christian souls. Neither can it be doubted that such negligence would become the source of misery to the world, of public calamity, and of private woe.'More than a hundred years have elapsed since this solemn warning of the Vicar of (Christ was given to the world; and during that time, the relaxation he inveighed against has gone on gradually increasing. How few Christians do we meet who are strict observers of Lent, even in its present mild form![22]

And must there not result from this ever-growing spirit of
immortification, a general effeminacy of character, which will
lead, at last, to frightful social disorders?


As old school laymen in The Catholic Church we know we can not rely on The Pope or The USCCB to restore what they destroyed. We are going to have to do it ourselves. It is crystal clear that we Christian men have been our own worst enemies.

It is time to Man Up and FAST and do Penance and strengthen The Body of Christ so it can cast-off its deadly afflictions of feminism and homosexualism and the Hootenanny Mass.

And what is with the ONE hour fast and abstinence before Communion?

Hell,I could eat Eggs Benedict, Home Fries, and Bacon, throw-down Three Bloody Marys, finish before 8:00 A.M. and STILL be Jake to go to Communion at the 9:00 A. M Mass. Are you kidding me? THAT is penitential?

Vermont Crank (a.k.a. The Mysogynist):

You would probably greatly admire Ghandi for his abstinance from meat during his entire life--an accomplishment rare among Catholics--except for the extreme feminine characteristics of Hinduism and Indian culture in general. They somehow missed out on the attitude of contempt for the feminine that you exhibit with such rabid florescence. And imagine, these unmanly characteristics go hand-in-hand with a strong aversion to meat!

Moreover, the meatless Fridays of Catholics pale indeed, in comparison to the fasting I shared with muslims while I lived in Morocco. We had to eat nothing at all from sunrise to sunset for an entire month. Oh yes, we couldn't drink water, either, even in summer. (And it's a very long time from sunrise to sunset in the summer!) And I carried out this severe discipline while I was in the Peace Corps, that bastion of unmanly liberalism.

I would encourage you to re-examine some of your pathological prejudices.

Dear Rick. Your indifferentism has led you into a state worse than mere blindness. It has led you into hallucination. That is, you "see" what does not exist.

There is not one word in what I wrote suggesting hatred of women. However, there is no doubt that I hate Feminism.

As to Ghandi, I am not a fan of that putative Saint in the Secular Calendar. He was far too concerned with his bowel movements for my tastes and were it not for the Western Rule of Law administered by England then we would never have heard of the fakir. There is the old line about him that I am too lazy to Google but it has to do with the fact that it took a lot of money for him to live in poverty. And then there is his sleeping with girls to "prove" he could be "chaste." Ghandi holds no fascination for me and as for the supposed "example" of his life, it is a galactic distance in true examples of lives lived rightly when compared with the lives lived by the most unknown of Catholic Saints. As for a comparison of Ghandi's practice towards the untouchables and, say, the practice of Dt Damien of Molokai towards those with Leprosy, it is embarrassing, isn't it?

Pick a new saint.


I disagree there is no comparison twixt Catholic and Mahometan fasting and abstinence. While there are, obviously, observable similarities in the practice of Catholic and Mahometan fasts/abstinences there is no similarity in the intent of the members of the True Faith on the one hand and the Mahometans members of the False Faith on the other and neither is their similarity in the God of the True Faith, out of love for whom The Catholic engages in those acts, and the putative God of The Mahometans.

And, of course, many secularists engage in fast and abstinence for purely materialistic (health of the body) - motivations.

So,, in closing, I have to write that I have examined what you describe as my pathological prejudices and to me they seem consistent with over 2000 years of Christian Catholic Orthopraxis.

Dear Mr. Crank,

Granted, you never expressed hatred of women as such. Point well taken. However, the entire tone of your post strongly suggested a glorification of purely masculine virtues (excuse the redundancy...the root of "virtue" is "vir" which means "male" in Latin) and contempt for feminine values.

You seem to have missed my point concerning Gandhi. I never presented him as an admirable saint. I was pointing out the irony that astinence from meat didn't necessarily equate with masculine values, as you implied. However, I will comment on a couple of the points you tried to make about him.

Do you know who made the comment about how much it cost to keep him in poverty? Gandhi said it. It was his own joke.

As for sleeping with his nieces (and he stayed celibate while doing it), may I suggest that this would be too much temptation for a lot of priests I know.

Finally, about his attitudes towards the untouchables. I assume you brought up the example of Fr. Damien because he ministered intimately to lepers whom others shunned. This is a wonderful example of sacrifice and saintliness! In fact, it reminds me of Gandhi's attitudes towards the untouchables. He changed their name from "dalit" to "harijan", which means "children of God". He worked all his life to break down the barriers of intolerance and segregation directed at them, even shoveling out latrines with them to show that he would not put himself on a superior level. So, where is the embarrassment? An explanation, please?

Speaking of lepers, I worked closely with a wonderful young woman, a fellow Peace Corps volunteer in West Africa, whose job was to work with lepers in a clinic. She spent much of her time patiently massaging the fingers and toes of lepers with wax. She did it with her own hands.

And now about your comments concerning muslims: First, there are no such people as "Mahometans". This is an archaic designation that fell out of use in the early 20th century. The muslims reject the name because they refuse to worship Mohammed.

Concerning my comments about keeping the Ramadan fast, you said, "...there is no similarity in the intent of the members of the True Faith on the one hand and the Mahometans members of the False Faith on the other..." Really? One of my young electronics students in Casablanca once tried to explain the purposes of the fast to me. "Monsieur," he said, "there are two great goals in keeping the fast. First, we learn to master our bodies and lower appetites, so that they do not master us. Second, when we feel the pain of extreme hunger, we come to understand and identify with the poor and suffering of this earth."

Now, please. Are these two goals for fasting contrary to the goals of fasting for Christians? Are these two goals not harmonious with two of the most fundamental themes to be found from the Old Testament prophets through to the great Catholic saints? An explanation, please?

Rick, why are you bothering?

Crank already has spoiled the discourse here by shouting louder than everyone else with his showily archaic accent on orthopraxis. (Note, Crank: the criticism here is not of orthopraxis, but instead of your showy archaicism. Get it right when you flame me.)

This thread is done because Crank ended it. And, to paraphrase Churchill, he can't change his mind and won't change the subject. There's no point in expending the effort on him.

Lentils are a good source of magnesium that is lacking in many diets and a cause of health problems ( even heart attacks ! ) and of childern being hyper ! I hope the lil "obligation" to abstain from meat on Fridays will be reintroduced into the Christian life of today's Catholics in this country. In my own life, if I happen to eat meat on a Friday for whatever reason, I try to make up for it with a little act of self-denial, like reciting the rosary. The Church in this country has determined that, if a person eats meat on Friday, he or she should replace it with a little sacrifice. Today's young people will love this invitation to offer up their sacrifices. They never hear this challenge from "the world" they live in.

Once again, as with Lenten fasting rules, vegetarians, vegans and pescatarians are left to figure this out on their own. :) Seems like we will have to follow the VII substitution model anyway.

Also, there's something not quite kosher about substituting cheap hamburger with Dungeness crab or fresh-caught halibut or salmon at current market prices. Those are luxury meals even for those who live in areas where they're commonly on the menu.

At the end of the day, given the times we live in and the availability and cost of meat v. fresh seafood, as well as the increasing number of vegetarians and vegans among Catholics, this all seems to remain a matter of conscience for many people.

Wollert ED is on the right track: lentils, beans, rice, etc. are not only a filling, inexpensive and very healthy alternative to meat, but they are staples in less fortunate areas. A simple but filling and healthy meal of beans and rice, for example, not only unites all Catholics, including the above-mentioned groups, in a penitential practice, but reminds us how much so many of us have and take for granted. The healthful addition to our diets of high-fiber legumes in place of saturated-fat laden meats is a bonus!