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The Distraction of a Dive-Bombing

It was perhaps a year or so after the terror attacks of 9/11, during the debates over the Patriot Act. I was reading comment threads in a right-leaning political forum, and noted one woman who vociferously objected to the legislation. She was a “stalwart conservative” and a bit of a rugged individualist—she could shoot a gun and dress a kill (if I had known of Sarah Palin’s existence at the time, I’d have favorably compared the two)—and her concerns about the legislation were sound. She feared giving too much power into the hands of the government, or even into the hands of a president she basically liked, because she fully expected—in the natural way of things—that these expanded powers would eventually be abused. Her patriotism, she declared, demanded that she put her concern over her party loyalty: “Once people acquire power,” she wrote, “they don’t give it up at some later date, they just add to it.”

I thought her concerns were valid and well-expressed, and was surprised to see this formerly very popular commenter quickly became unwelcome within the forum. An image formed in my mind of birds flying in unison, and then suddenly dive-bombing in turn against a non-conformist who had been deemed unfit for the formation. In a matter of weeks the objector was gone, but before she left, she made a point of posting the Ben Franklin-attributed quote: “Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security”. She predicted her compatriots would regret their legislative overreach, and that someday they would hear candidates pledge to reduce intrusive government powers, only to further extend them upon attaining their office—thanks to the very precedents then being cheered on.

As fascinating as that whole exchange was, what I found most striking was the ferocity of the party loyalists. Conscious of the horrors of the 2001 attacks on New York and Washington, and of all the ways our freedoms could be used against us, the forum participants effortlessly surrendered everything they might have known or believed about human beings, the human heart and the vagaries of power, and expressed confidence that President George W. Bush would use such heightened surveillance capabilities “only for good.”

And it was at that point that I realized I was witnessing a kind of unthinking, unintended idolatry, by “Christian, believing” people who would be horrified and insulted to hear it suggested of them.

Like my forum friends, I too liked George W. Bush. My vote for him in 2000 was the first I’d ever cast for any Republican, and I sometimes surprised myself at how boisterous I could be in my defense of him in the face of needless and unfair jeering. I confess, I too wanted to believe that “Dubya” was, somehow, a man apart from most men—that a “Patriot Act” in his hands was something less dicey than it would be in anyone else’s. But I was uneasy, and when I did venture to suggest that there was, in fact, a troubling aroma of idolatry wafting within our breezy confidences of the man, I was kindly informed that—being composed of Christian believers—the forum was in no danger of falling into sin against that great and primary commandment. God was still All; George W. Bush was simply his agent, and the two were not to be confused. I was less kindly rebuffed when I went further and wondered—as I have many times over the years—whether there was a danger of ideologies themselves becoming idols, and what would be required of us if that became the case.

I wasn’t long for that forum. While I was never dive-bombed out of their formation like the Palin-prototype, my flying was considered wayward enough that I was simply left to find my own bumptious sky.

All of this comes to mind, now, as I observe blogs reporting on stories like this one:


H.R. 1540, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, has already passed the House, and is currently before the Senate. One section of the bill gives the President the authority to detain indefinitely American citizens, picked up on American soil, because they are allegedly supporting the enemy. . .

It is the sort of story one would expect to have cable news shouters in high dudgeon and headlines in all caps. But somehow it has not penetrated, or the media is incurious.

Similarly, a Friday-night document dump concerning what appears to be a “Fast and Furious” government-sponsored gun-running operation, whose goals are as yet unclear, finds a minimum amount of play in the mainstream press.

In the interest of “national security” it pleased some on the “religious right” to cultivate disinterest in important policy ideas and powers that could affect the citizenry, and to simply confer power and a naïve trust upon an office whose ownership is regularly up for grabs. It smacked of idolatry, back then.

Now, in the further interest of National Security—or, in the Fast and Furious matter, for reasons that remain unjustified and murky—it pleases some on the secularist left (even those who once fiercely opposed the very “Patriot Act” that seems almost tame by comparison) to cultivate a quiet disinterest as the government accrues ever more power, without so much as a “do what, now?” from the talking heads.

In any sort of mind, it seems, an idol can be formed of ideas, and dive-bombing distractions can effectively shoo-off those who would examine or question, until such time as access to wondering is closed. Then we will no longer know what we do not know, or recognize the sound, the feel, the taste of truth.

Elizabeth Scalia is the Managing Editor of the Catholic Portal at Patheos and blogs as The Anchoress. Her previous articles for "On the Square" can be found here.

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Comments:

12.6.2011 | 10:10am
Felapton says:
One would think it would have been obvious to conservatives that the weapons they gave George Bush would someday be wielded by somebody like Obama. Just as the left should now reflect that the powers they now give Obama may soon be back in conservative hands.

I also would be inclined to trust George Bush (certainly George H.W. Bush) or Mitt Romney with permission to command the assassination of American citizens abroad. But the thought of any such power ever being in Newt Gingrich's control fills me with horror. (A personal opinion, obviously, with which many people of good will and intelligence will disagree.)
12.6.2011 | 10:38am
Ben Embry says:
Nice to see First Things gearing up for possible future discussions about Ron Paul. I might just dig that subscription renewal notice out of the trash.
12.6.2011 | 11:08am
jason taylor says:
"In a matter of weeks the objector was gone, but before she left, she made a point of posting the Ben Franklin-attributed quote: “Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security”."

Ben Franklin worked for a regime that raised an army with a hierarchical structure enforced by the lash, led by a Virginian aristocrat; punished dissent with tar and feathers, and cooperated with Bourbon despots. What he considered an inappropriate sacrifice of liberty for security was apparently rather less obvious in practice then in speech. People who toss that phrase about to often should really remember that.

And the only people who do not trade liberty for security are hermits.
12.6.2011 | 11:25am
Some distinctions have to be made here.

Regardless of how limited one views the role of the federal government, it cannot be seriously disputed that one of its clear duties is to prevent foreigners and Americans acting in concert with foreigners from blowing us up.

One can support the Patriot Act while at the same time objecting to HHS promulgating regulations that force religious institutions to provide healthcare coverage to their employees that include contraception and abortion. In one area, the government has a compelling interest in line with its constitutional role; in the other, it is overreaching to enforce the Administration's views on a moral issue in violation of the Constitution.

And for all of the hand-wringing and wailing about the Patriot Act, can anyone out there identify injustices that have occurred specifically because of the Act? Perhaps Elizabeth's Sarah Palin-like friend is lurking out there with some examples that justified her initial fears?
12.6.2011 | 12:08pm
Randy says:
You also have to admit, if the terrorists continued to have success, if there had been three more days like 9/11, the original Patriot Act would look like a nerf (foam) hammer compared to what the public would be clamoring for. If the government has too little power to protect, and the enemy is too successful, we'd soon have all kinds of publicly-supported government police power. The public would demand it. Frightened people are very flexible in that way. So, it's also dangerous to handcuff the FBI too much. We have to be careful what we wish for.
12.6.2011 | 12:53pm
bill bannon says:
Yes...such indefinite detaining could please most of us in a black and white Al Awlaki case...were he still alive. But what will constitute supporting the enemy? That, if left too vague, would have had Jane Fonda indefinitely detained for commenting on the US undermining the Red River dikes in North Vietnam while in Hanoi in 1972 and we never would have seen "On Golden Pond" 1981. Jail her for the Vietcong comments but make it definite in length so that agents and studios can schedule. Seriously, the open ended nature of Islamic extremism could make the war on terror unending (unlike the Vietnam war) and this unending nature of Islamic terrorism is leading to the word "indefinite" as to detention in the new law.
What's to prevent the detention from going past the end of a normal war....Fonda and Golden Pond.
But let's not let religion and it's power amendments off the hook. Parallel increases in power for Pontiffs is just as problematic. Canon law now requiring all Church office holders and college profs to affirm the non definitive teachings of a Pope has led to an entire Church intelligentia doing the 180 degree shuffle on the death penalty while the oath was probably implemented more with a view toward lining such people up on birth control. Many conservative curia people years ago
must have been gleeful at rumors of the canon in respect to sexual issues and now
however they see its results in areas they had not foreseen. Oddly this new Canon mandated oath of fidelity retroed back into the 16th century would have suppressed opposition to slavery by Bishop Bartome de Las Casas...slavery made possible in the new world by Pope Nicholas V and three of his successors and countermanded by Pope Paul III who was impressed by Las Casas' dissent on enslaving new natives.
12.6.2011 | 12:59pm
AKO says:
@Ben
"Nice to see First Things gearing up for possible future discussions about Ron Paul. I might just dig that subscription renewal notice out of the trash."

I would as well. The Patriot act is nuts and sickening and I would welcome more discussion about it.
12.6.2011 | 1:15pm
"H.R. 1540, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, has already passed the House, and is currently before the Senate. One section of the bill gives the President the authority to detain indefinitely American citizens, picked up on American soil, because they are allegedly supporting the enemy. . ."

If you read the actual legislation, you will discover that unless you intend to become associated with al Qaeda or the Taliban you really have nothing to fear from this provision.
12.6.2011 | 1:28pm
Steve Colby says:
"...or the media is incurious."

Ya think?
12.6.2011 | 2:04pm
"The Patriot act is nuts and sickening and I would welcome more discussion about it."

Is it just the name that nauseates you, or do you have some actual reasons for finding it "nuts and sickening" that you could share with the rest of us?
12.6.2011 | 2:23pm
Brian writes: "unless you intend to become associated with al Qaeda or the Taliban you really have nothing to fear from this provision. "

Some would disagree, or argue that this opens up a "slippery slope" -- and I think they might have a point. Our Homeland Security gang has begun to define "possible terrorist behaviors" very broadly. I don't think it's ever wise to be cavalier about these sorts of laws.
12.6.2011 | 3:14pm
Ben Embry says:
Brian English , if the law was limited to people with ties to the Taliban and/or al Qaeda, then HR 1540 would have said just that. One of the commenters
Said to read the document on question. I suggest you follow his counsel. The limits of the law are not what you think they are.

In brief, this is what you read: "congress affirms....the authority of the president...to detain terrorist suspects...without trial until the end of hostilities." this includes US citizens. It leaves both "terror suspects" and "hostilities" as terms that require further interpretation, and those interpretations may wInd up being quite broad. Or narrow. Who knows? But the law in question certainly leaves many possibilities for interpretation.
12.6.2011 | 3:38pm
The law will not be used against al Qaeda, or the Taliban.

It will be used against American citizens, when someone decides they're a "Danger to the state", or somehow "Supporting the enemy". These are dangerous nebulous terms, and can be stretched to include any, and everything.

The slippery slope is slippery indeed. Already, we're allowing ordinary citizens, who are not accused of any crime, or even suspected of one, being strip searched at airports.

Many of the comments here are depressing; ideology is, indeed, blinding. (Nice to see the Paulbots have shown up /Sarc.)
12.6.2011 | 3:44pm
People who trade liberty for security are slaves.

Often, they don't even get the security, since once Big Brother really gets going, a lot of people, who thought they were honest, upright citizens, not affiliated with al Qaeda or the Taliban, etc., tend to wind up in jail/the re-education camp/the Gulag anyway.

Please remember---there are many who consider gun owners, Tea Party members, those who support Israel and Christians who are anti-abortion enemies of the county, as well as being all-around no-goodniks, and probably up to something.

Do we really want the government to have this kind of power?

(Oh, man, Ron Paul! I already miss Cain and Palin, and I wasn't even that big a supporter of them!)
12.6.2011 | 4:09pm
"Some would disagree, or argue that this opens up a "slippery slope" -- and I think they might have a point."

But then you could argue that we should not have any law enforcement agencies because they could become the Gestapo. Slippery slope arguments are considered an informal logical fallacy for a reason.

"Our Homeland Security gang has begun to define "possible terrorist behaviors" very broadly. I don't think it's ever wise to be cavalier about these sorts of laws."

Well, if the Obama Administration decides that the express reference in the legislation to al Qaeda and the Taliban actually means al Qaeda, the Taliban and the Vatican, wouldn't that evidence a problem with the Administration, rather than with the legislation?
12.6.2011 | 4:19pm
harry says:
“And it was at that point that I realized I was witnessing a kind of unthinking, unintended idolatry, by 'Christian, believing' people who would be horrified and insulted to hear it suggested of them.”

The following will be of no significance to atheists. Neither will it be significant to Christians for whom the Old Testament, while there may occasionally be a moral to a story within it they agree with, is really to be taken no more seriously than Aesop's Fables – in other words, Christians who have fallen prey to certain elements of modern scripture scholarship. But to those for whom the Bible is God's inerrant Word, and the words within it are those by which they try to live, the following might be significant.

God always hands his people over to bondage or oppression by the nation whose false god they worshiped. The reason God's people eventually ended up enslaved in Egypt in the first place was because they worshiped Egypt's false gods:

“... I made a promise to the members of Jacob's family line. I made myself known to them in Egypt. I raised my hand and told them, 'I am the Lord your God.' … I said to them, 'Each of you must get rid of the statues of the evil gods you worship. Do not pollute yourselves by worshiping the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.' But they refused to obey me. They would not listen to me. They did not get rid of the evil gods they worshiped. And they did not turn away from Egypt's gods.”
– Ezekiel 20:5,7-8

Why did God's people end up being oppressed by the Midianites? Idolatry:

“Once again the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord. So for seven years he handed them over to the people of Midian. The Midianites treated the people of Israel very badly. … They cried out to the Lord because of what Midian had done. So he sent a prophet to them. The prophet said: The Lord is the God of Israel. He says, 'I brought you up out of Egypt. That is the land where you were slaves. I saved you from the power of Egypt. I saved you from all those who were beating you down. I drove the people of Canaan out to make room for you. I gave you their land. I said to you, 'I am the Lord your God. You are now living in the land of the Amorites. Do not worship their gods.' But you have not listened to me.”
– Judges 6:1-2,7-10

Why did they end up being oppressed by the Philistines and the Ammonites? Idolatry:

Once again the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord. They served the gods that were named after Baal. They served the goddesses that were named after Ashtoreth. They worshiped the gods of Aram and Sidon. They served the gods of Moab and Ammon. They also worshiped the gods of the Philistines. The people of Israel deserted the Lord. They didn't serve him anymore. So the Lord's anger burned against them. He handed them over to the Philistines and the Ammonites.
– Judges 10:6-7

The God of the Old Testament is still God. Idolatry still has grave consequences. Contemporary idolatry consists in our rendering unto Caesar authority over innocent human life which belongs only to God. It should not surprise us at all if we find ourselves slowly being handed over to bondage and oppression by a government we have deified.
12.6.2011 | 5:03pm
greggo says:
those who worship idols often deny the idols are idols. "They" say the idol represents something else. But soon the boundry between the something else and the idol becomes blurred. This is true of politicians, money, sports teams and behavior. When the goal justifies the means the goal is forgotten.
12.6.2011 | 5:16pm
Ben Embry says:
Brian English, how would you answer the question, "What was the founders' rationale for creating a limited government?" Another question on which I'd enjoy hearing from you (or anyone, but especially Mr. English) is how to determine when, if ever, legislators are culpable for the unjust execution of the laws that they made.
12.6.2011 | 6:09pm
Howard says:
First of all, we should be immediately suspicious of anything that is CALLED "The Patriot Act", even before reading it. Or the "If You Don't Support This Your Loyalty Is Suspect, And You Know What We Do To The Disloyal" Act.

Can we point to specific instances in which it has been abused? Very few. But of course, the list of those held in Guantanamo Bay is classified, so how exactly *could* we know? Or, to put the shoe on the other foot, can you point to any act of terrorism that was prevented by the "Patriot Act"? We all know of several that were prevented by other passengers on airlines, and there was that guy in Time Square who didn't know how to make a working car bomb, but those weren't really "Patriot Act" success stories. However, we are assured that the FBI has tons of brilliant success that have saved millions of lives but that dang it, they just can't tell us about them, no matter how much it would firm up their popular and budgetary support. Yeah, right.
12.6.2011 | 6:42pm
"Please remember---there are many who consider gun owners, Tea Party members, those who support Israel and Christians who are anti-abortion enemies of the county, as well as being all-around no-goodniks, and probably up to something."

The proposed legislation is specifically aimed at those who conspire with al Qaeda and the Taliban. If you are telling me that the Obama Administration is going to disregard the plain words of the statute and go after the Knights of Columbus, then your problem is with the Obama Administration.

We cannot refuse to pass any kinds of laws to prevent terrorist attacks simply because someone in the government might misuse the laws.
12.6.2011 | 6:58pm
"Brian English, how would you answer the question, "What was the founders' rationale for creating a limited government?"

This isn't a question of limited government since the federal government is clearly charged with defending the country from foreign attack. The fact that American citizens are assiting the foreign aggressor doesn't change that.

"Another question on which I'd enjoy hearing from you (or anyone, but especially Mr. English) is how to determine when, if ever, legislators are culpable for the unjust execution of the laws that they made."

Why should legislators be held "culpable" if the executive branch unjustly enforces a law? Under those circumstances the legislative branch can amend the law to correct the executive's faulty execution and/or the judicial branch should step in to invalidate the unjust execution of the law.
12.6.2011 | 7:30pm
TeaPot562 says:
Idolatry is (essentially) ascribing characteristics uniquely possessed by God to one or more creatures. The fact that we may be Christians in name does not protect us from worshiping (by devoting time, treasure or talent) to luxury, entertainment (can anyone say "football" or political organizations. Our bishops helped pass the Obama-sponsored health legislation because it promised to level health services more broadly to the poor. However, when it was enacted it turned out to be a Trojan horse for Govt-sponsored abortion.
Ron Paul has been stating for a number of years that the US federal government far overreaches the bounds of the US Constitution, even after considering the twenty-plus amendments that have been ratified by the necessary states.
If unlimited power is passed to the Executive branch of the Federal govt., we will inevitably find someone with the characteristics of Caligula or Nero in the office of POTUS. Ron Paul could be a welcome corrective to this drift of our citizenry into serfdom.
TeaPot562
12.7.2011 | 1:55am
Benn says:
Scalia voted for Bill Clinton twice. LOL. That figures.
12.7.2011 | 2:06am
Power corrupts, and absolute power is really neat!
12.7.2011 | 7:41am
SQ says:
@ Brian English, who said, "If you read the actual legislation, you will discover that unless you intend to become associated with al Qaeda or the Taliban you really have nothing to fear from this provision.."

This is all fine and dandy, except for the government, and especially the current administration, has made a habit of doing anything they want according to THEIR OWN interpretation of the law, and leaving it to the rest who object to take it to the courts. (After the law has been violated! Let my own court appointed judges interpret it!)

It is not right for a citizen to have to sue for his rights when they have already been established. That is not checks and balances; it is the beginning of tyranny. They continue to push the envelope. (understatement) This is also the administration who took a terrorist with a bomb in his underwear off a plane and proceeded to read him his "rights."
12.7.2011 | 9:20am
"Can we point to specific instances in which it has been abused? Very few."

Can you identify one of those very few?

"However, we are assured that the FBI has tons of brilliant success that have saved millions of lives but that dang it, they just can't tell us about them, no matter how much it would firm up their popular and budgetary support."

The issue is not whether the Patriot Act is effective. The issue is whether it is being used to infringe upon constitutional rights. Despite a lot of hysterical talk that has gone on for years now, that certainly does not appear to be the case.
12.7.2011 | 9:42am
Tom Perkins says:
"Ben Franklin worked for a regime that raised an army with a hierarchical structure enforced by the lash, led by a Virginian aristocrat; punished dissent with tar and feathers, and cooperated with Bourbon despots. What he considered an inappropriate sacrifice of liberty for security was apparently rather less obvious in practice then in speech. People who toss that phrase about to often should really remember that.

And the only people who do not trade liberty for security are hermits."

A quick glance at his range of options provides full exoneration to Ben Franklin, if anyone can fairly require--and I think none can--to charges of either hypocrisy or of having a substantially different view of liberty than we do. The hermit you mention has little security--and may well be murdered for his goods unnoticed--and if he is more free to do what he wants, he had in fact best want little, for he has drastically limited his option.

A point in fact which I think is well demonstrated by history, it is not possible to trade liberty for security.
12.7.2011 | 10:14am
Benn,

No, I voted for Clinton once. In the Clinton/Dole election I could not bring myself to vote for either and left the top ticket a blank. Clearly transitioning.
12.7.2011 | 11:01am
"This is all fine and dandy, except for the government, and especially the current administration, has made a habit of doing anything they want according to THEIR OWN interpretation of the law, and leaving it to the rest who object to take it to the courts. (After the law has been violated! Let my own court appointed judges interpret it!)"

(1) The law is not even on the books yet, so it cannot explain the Obama Administration's behavior.

(2) Are you contending that we should not have any laws on these issues because a renegade executive branch might misuse them?

"It is not right for a citizen to have to sue for his rights when they have already been established. That is not checks and balances; it is the beginning of tyranny."

No, that is absolutely a part of checks and balances. Voters have the biggest check because they can remove these people from office.
12.7.2011 | 11:19am
And, of course, Brian, we can absolutely trust that the government will never, ever, broaden the definition of "Treason", or "Working with al Qaeda" or "Terrorist" to include ordinary citizens, who might be doing something the government doesn't approve us; and, of course, it would never, ever, abuse such power. During the course of the 20th-21st Centuries, it is a well known fact that governments have never abused such sweeping powers over their citizenry.

/Sarc.

Janet Napalitano has already talked about the dangers of right wing "Terrorists."

And no one here is suggesting we don't do anything about terrorists. That's a straw man you're waving at us. We're talking about our constitutional rights---which we've already lost, at the airport.
12.7.2011 | 11:43am
Ben Embry says:
Brian, thanks for answering one of the two questions I posed.

I still think your insistence that "terror suspect" can only be rightly used when applied to Taliban- or Al Quaeda-related activities is pretty naive. Actually, I think that kind of naivete is what Ms. Scalia had in mind in her article.
12.7.2011 | 12:44pm
"During the course of the 20th-21st Centuries, it is a well known fact that governments have never abused such sweeping powers over their citizenry."

But a rogue government is going to do that regardless of whether there are laws like the Patriot Act or the new proposed legislation on the books. Totalitarians come up with justifications for their actions one way or another.

"And no one here is suggesting we don't do anything about terrorists. That's a straw man you're waving at us."

Well, what should we do about Americans who conspire with foreign terrorists to cause death and destruction in this country?

"We're talking about our constitutional rights---which we've already lost, at the airport."

The TSA debacle is not really about constitutional rights. It is about the government pretending to do something about a serious issue by engaging in an absurd charade.
12.7.2011 | 1:07pm
"I still think your insistence that "terror suspect" can only be rightly used when applied to Taliban- or Al Quaeda-related activities is pretty naive. Actually, I think that kind of naivete is what Ms. Scalia had in mind in her article."

The express words of the legislation refer to the Taliban and al Qaeda. If you are telling me I have to choose between running the risk that the Obama Administration might interpret this statute to somehow include the Vatican, or not having any legislation to address this issue, I am willing to run that risk.

In any event. the Administration seems content to go after the Church in other areas, so I actually think the concerns here are misplaced. Why force a showdown through a ridiculous interpretation of this statute when you have healthcare regulations to promulgate?
12.7.2011 | 3:43pm
Ben Embry says:
Brian, The wording is what the law will be. To limit the scope of the law to only al Qaeda and Taliban, the bill could easily be changed to say "only al Qaeda and Taliban and no other terrorist suspects, none, not the Vatican or the knights of Columbus or timothy mcveigh or Benedict Arnold or homeschoolers or cults or illegal hispanic drug traffickers or just plain old illegal Hispanics or anything else. Just Taliban and al Qaeda. "

That is an exaggeration, but the point is that the wording could be changed to limit the scope of the law. As it stands, that scope is left pretty wide.

So have the legislation you want, Mr. English, not the legislation you don't want. Is there a better way to do that than by being precise in the scope of law? Are you not a little embarrassed at the imprecision of the benign lawmakers? They are like a big puppy: good hearted but pretty dumb. Is that it?
12.7.2011 | 4:26pm
"Is there a better way to do that than by being precise in the scope of law? Are you not a little embarrassed at the imprecision of the benign lawmakers? They are like a big puppy: good hearted but pretty dumb. Is that it?"

I hate to be put in the position of defending Congress, but the way the law is drafted is proper. The law applies to the Taliban and al Qaeda, which is consistent with the authorization of force passed after 9/11. If you start listing everyone else the law does not apply to, you create a situation where an argument could be made that anyone not listed in the exceptions is also subject to the law.
12.7.2011 | 7:44pm
Ben Embry says:
Well, I suppose I can reluctantly agree to laws that do not single out Benedict Arnold by name, although it just doesn't seem right!

But instead of naming folks to whom legislation does not pertain, you are saying to specify precisely thOse to whom it does pertain, which is, if I'm hearing you right, strictly Taliban and Al Quaeda, and THEIR collaborators. And US citizens who seem to fit this description can be detained indefinitely without trial (although a US citizen might have enjoyed a trial to certify if what *seems* to be the case about collaboration with terrorists (of only 2 specific groups, per Brian' reading) actually is the case, but no matter on such fine points for now). Anyway, the clearest way to specify ONLY Taliban and Al Quaeda suspects is this? :

"a person who was part of or substantially supported al Quaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or it's coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces."

Fair enough, my friend. What about that " no trial" thing for US citizens? Oh never mind. This construction worker has tapped more than enough on his phone for one day. Adieu.
12.7.2011 | 9:07pm
Well, Brian, we could stop allowing immigration from those countries who supplied the hijackers for 9/11. We could refuse to permit the building of a mosque, at Ground Zero. We could stop pretending that countries like Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, are our allies. We could stop sending money to "Palestine" (or any other Islamic country). We could support Israel, instead of demanding it go along with the "Peace Process" farce. As for travel, we could adopt Israeli methods of profiling---yes, profiling---passengers, and using their investigative techniques. (Do you really think strip-searching grandmothers is going to keep us safe?) We could stop pretending the Arab Spring is the greatest thing since crackerjacks. We could stop supporting fundamentalist Islamic regimes. We could stop pandering to CAIR, and the Moslem Brotherhood. We could stop bending over backwards to accomodate Islamic religious practices. We could revamp the F.B.I., and make it drop its foolish outreach program.

Again, this is a straw man. No one's saying we shouldn't fight terrorism. They're saying this is not a good bill.

We could do a lot of things we aren't doing. This bill will not accomplish anything---except giving the government too much power over ordinary citizens. Do you really think an administration that's gone after Catholics vis-a-vis health care isn't going to be tempted to use this bill, at some point, to teach the church a lesson, when it refuses to give in? If the administration wants to go after the Church in other areas, why won't it attack it through this, too? Ooooh, I forgot! Because the law only deals with al Qaeda (as if laws can't be changed, or bent), and because the law makers can be trusted. Yah. Right.

I think this view is dangerous naive.
12.7.2011 | 9:08pm
Why do you like this bill so much, Brian? What is it about it that appeals to you so?
12.9.2011 | 4:06pm
AKO says:
"Why do you like this bill so much, Brian? What is it about it that appeals to you so? "
Like Rhinestone Suderman said, I would also like to know the answer to this question.
12.11.2011 | 11:17pm
Ben Embry says:
Here's a relevant portion of a quote from David Foster Wallace, the full load being available at this link. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/11/just-asking/6288/

Is this thought experiment monstrous? Would it be monstrous to refer to the 40,000-plus domestic highway deaths we accept each year because the mobility and autonomy of the car are evidently worth that high price? Is monstrousness why no serious public figure now will speak of the delusory trade-off of liberty for safety that Ben Franklin warned about more than 200 years ago? What exactly has changed between Franklin’s time and ours? Why now can we not have a serious national conversation about sacrifice, the inevitability of sacrifice—either of (a) some portion of safety or (b) some portion of the rights and protections that make the American idea so incalculably precious?

In the absence of such a conversation, can we trust our elected leaders to value and protect the American idea as they act to secure the homeland? What are the effects on the American idea of Guantánamo, Abu Ghraib, Patriot Acts I and II, warrantless surveillance, Executive Order 13233, corporate contractors performing military functions, the Military Commissions Act, NSPD 51, etc., etc.? Assume for a moment that some of these measures really have helped make our persons and property safer—are they worth it? Where and when was the public debate on whether they’re worth it? Was there no such debate because we’re not capable of having or demanding one? Why not? Have we actually become so selfish and scared that we don’t even want to consider whether some things trump safety? What kind of future does that augur?
12.11.2011 | 11:26pm
Ben Embry says:
and here's another quote, this one from Ron Paul, from a book published in early 1990's, titled 'Challenge to Liberty: Coming to Grips with the Abortion Issue'. He writes:

A Supreme Court case in February of 1989 invovling Joshua DeShaney and a social worker, speaks to this issue [of intrusive gov monitoring *to prevent* aggression] Four-year-old Joshua was beaten into a coma and was left with permanent brain damage by his father. A social worker had visited the family the day before the beating due to reports of child abuse.
Joshua's mother filed suit against the state government and the social worker arguing that the government failed to protect her son from injury. Her contention was that no state could "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law." This obviously was a new twist to the due process clause of the Constitution
Obviously the father was guilty of violent behavior, in this instance, and deserved punishment. But the question the court had to answer was whether governement employees (police) are liable and obligated to protect citizens from potential harm, when warned of potential danger.

This was a good test case, and fortunately, the court ruled wisely. Conservative Chief Justice William Rehnquist correctly wrote for the majority that the due process clasue was intended, "... to protect the people from the state, not to insure that the state protected them from each other". The state, Rehnquist argued can, "... not become the permanent guarantor of an individual's safety."
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