The Virgin Mary’s Spiritual Lessons
August 20, 2012
R.R. Reno
I love the Feast of the Assumption. The readings for the day include a dragon ready to devour the son of the sun-clothed Queen of Heaven. And then there is the magnificat, the Virgin Mary’s hymn of thanksgiving and praise: “My soul doth magnify the Lord; and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior.”
OK, that’s not precisely what Catholics heard last week. The New American Bible gives us more straightforward translation: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.” Here as in so many other places, the translators cut a thread in the larger verbal fabric of inherited piety, in this case the “magnify” that gives the magnificat its traditional name.
But Mary’s wonderful words soar nonetheless. The hair on the back of my neck always stands on end when I hear about how, through the child in the Blessed Virgin’s womb, the Lord will scatter the proud in their conceit, cast down the mighty from their thrones, and lift up the lowly and fill the hungry with good things. Mighty is the Lord, and righteous are his ways!
It’s not just the magnificat that makes the feast of the Assumption special, however. The feast honors one of the most fundamental and important truths proclaimed by Christianity: being human is in no way inconsistent with full participation in God’s sanctity. As Job puts it in his confession of faith: “In my flesh I will see God.”
This conviction is the basis of the Marian dogmas affirmed by the Catholic Church in the modern era. In 1854, Pius IX issued a papal bull defining the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: Mary, the mother of God, was from the moment of conception without the stain (macula, and thus immaculate) of original sin. She was a sinless vessel for the sinless savior.
When affirming the Blessed Virgin’s immaculate conception, a Catholic is not in any way denying Mary’s humanity, nor is he covertly turning her into a goddess of some sort. Instead, the dogma simply applies the saving merits of Christ to Mary at the moment of her conception. She is, as it were, “born again” before she is born, and for that reason never under dominion of sin.
Needless to say, the bible does not say anything about all this, but the doctrine follows from some simple reasoning about what the bible does say. The most important is Mary’s whole-hearted assent when the angel of the Lord announces that she will bear the Son of God: “Let it be done with me according to your word.” How could she overcome the power of original sin so as to fully accept God’s saving word, unless, somehow, she was already given the grace of Christ’s merits? And that of course is the gist of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
Strictly speaking, the immaculate conception of Mary is no more “miraculous” than the baptism of an infant, adolescent, or adult. Sinning may be a painful part of what we actually experience about being human, but it’s not intrinsic. If we were to deny our powers of reason, we would deny our humanity. If we hated our bodies, we would hate our humanity. That’s not true of the dominion of sin, both the stain of original sin, and our actual sins.
Because we often forget that sin is not in fact natural, we’re pessimistic that anyone can actually be a saint. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is important to affirm, because it’s such a direct contradiction of that pessimism. Mary, a child conceived in the normal and natural way that all children are conceived, is without sin. This bold affirmation puts paid our usual (and often conveniently excusing) inner doubts that sinlessness and humanness can ever go together.
Original sin is more than a stain; it puts us under the power of corruption and death. Here the doctrine of the Assumption makes the same theological affirmation as the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: corruption and death are in no way necessary or integral parts of what it means to be human. God really can draw us to himself without in some way altering our created natures. We see exactly that the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. She is taken into heaven, body and soul, just as Job’s faith promises.
Once again, this dogmatic affirmation works against our native pessimism about our own humanity. We may have a faith that our souls can somehow be purified, eventually. But we tend to think that the usual war of the flesh against holiness is inevitable and unwinnable. But the doctrine of the Assumption insists otherwise. The Blessed Virgin did not suffer corruption. Her body was in no way at war with her spiritual destiny.
Since the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church has insisted on the real possibility of sanctification for all of us. That’s what’s at stake in the doctrine of purgatory, and in the Marian doctrines as well. It’s what John Paul II was saying when he reminded us that the call of Christ is a universal call to holiness. Yes, we live in a fallen world that makes any progress in holiness difficult. But it’s possible, because being human—being conceived by flesh, having a body with all sorts of instinctual desires and a trajectory toward decay and death—is not incompatible with participating the perfection of God.
As the Blessed Virgin Mary sings, God lifts up the lowly and fills the hungry with good things. Born under the shadow of Adam’s fault, we are indeed lowly. With bodies that age and fail, we are starved for eternity. But God is gracious. He lifts and fills us. And as the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption make clear, we should never turn away from that grace with excuses about how sin is inevitable, and our bodies somehow alien to our spiritual aspirations.
R.R. Reno is Editor of First Things. He is the general editor of the Brazos Theological Commentary on the Bible and author of the volume on Genesis. His previous “On the Square” articles can be found here.
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Comments:
8.20.2012 | 11:36am
Wesley L. Vincent, Ph.D. says:
As a child in a fundamentalist/evangelical, but decidedly anti-Catholic home, I never enjoyed Christmas cards unless they represented Mary and child. I was never convinced, actually I was distressed as a young child when I heard those sermons that declared, "Mary wasn't born sinless, she sinned just like everyone else"; "Mary didn't remain a virgin"; "Jesus wasn't Mary's only child, she had other children"; "Mary was just a vessel, any girl would have done"; "Mary wasn't assumed into heaven"; "Mary was rejected by Jesus when he said, 'What's that to you woman'" (said by the pastor in a harsh, hostile and sarcastic manner); "Mary rejected Jesus because the Bible never tells us she accepted Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior."
It was when a Catholic friend asked me why evangelicals were do dismissive, rejecting toward and hostile to Mary that I clarified that we Protestants had learned the lessons of the Old Testament and would never commit idolatry and worship or pray to Mary. Besides being dismayed at my suggestion that Catholics worshiped Mary, he pointed out that the Hail Mary was in Scripture. I was certain he was confused by the faulty Catholic Bibles that everyone knew had added many things. But I was intrigued to correct his error and did some research. What a shock to discover what Luke 1 said. Verses that had slid under my radar for my entire life.
After a lifetime of searching for the most correct evangelical denomination, a few years ago, at 55, my wife, my son and I entered the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church because of our Blessed Mother.
It was when a Catholic friend asked me why evangelicals were do dismissive, rejecting toward and hostile to Mary that I clarified that we Protestants had learned the lessons of the Old Testament and would never commit idolatry and worship or pray to Mary. Besides being dismayed at my suggestion that Catholics worshiped Mary, he pointed out that the Hail Mary was in Scripture. I was certain he was confused by the faulty Catholic Bibles that everyone knew had added many things. But I was intrigued to correct his error and did some research. What a shock to discover what Luke 1 said. Verses that had slid under my radar for my entire life.
After a lifetime of searching for the most correct evangelical denomination, a few years ago, at 55, my wife, my son and I entered the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church because of our Blessed Mother.
8.20.2012 | 1:11pm
Mark says:
Dean,
Our inheritance is indeed from Jesus Christ; yet, our Lord's inheritance is from His Father and His Mother. Otherwise, he was not fully human.
Our inheritance is indeed from Jesus Christ; yet, our Lord's inheritance is from His Father and His Mother. Otherwise, he was not fully human.
8.20.2012 | 2:00pm
Craig Roberts says:
@Dean from Ohio
If that's true, how is it that Luther and all your other Protestant forefathers had such great devotion to Mary? You worry about disturbing Catholics, but Luther would be spinning in his grave if he could hear you saying that veneration of Our Blessed Mother was idolatry. Your theology owes more to the tradition of hate for the Catholic Church (prostest) than the Holy Spirit that is the spouse of Our Lady.
If that's true, how is it that Luther and all your other Protestant forefathers had such great devotion to Mary? You worry about disturbing Catholics, but Luther would be spinning in his grave if he could hear you saying that veneration of Our Blessed Mother was idolatry. Your theology owes more to the tradition of hate for the Catholic Church (prostest) than the Holy Spirit that is the spouse of Our Lady.
8.20.2012 | 2:12pm
A.M. says:
While agreeing with the major parts of the above article , on a topic that is always worth being pondered upon , a couple of points might leave room for other interpretations ; unsure that The Church teaches , as part of the Dogma , that one has to believe that she was concievded in the 'natural manner ' unless , by that term , the author is indirectly referring to what might have been 'natural ' before the fall ..that point is also important , for our sex indulged culture, to know that there is a reason why celibacy and chastity are much valued in The Church ..the power of the spoken word ..
And the conception of the Lord' Mother , in the prefall mode would only enhance the whole picture of 'magnifying' who The Lord is ..so that , as @ Dean mentions, that trust in what The Lord has done and can do gets strengthened..
which might be the major lesson that The Church wants the believers to also take in , the awareness of the dignity of each of us , in our sinless Mother through the blessings of The Lord helping us also to strive to be so , through repentance , forgiveness of accepting the Lord's merits , for the sinner/offender , and thanking The Lord for same , thus freeing one's heart from hatred ..easier done , when that Maternal warmth is there too may be ..accepting She as their Mother too ..
And the conception of the Lord' Mother , in the prefall mode would only enhance the whole picture of 'magnifying' who The Lord is ..so that , as @ Dean mentions, that trust in what The Lord has done and can do gets strengthened..
which might be the major lesson that The Church wants the believers to also take in , the awareness of the dignity of each of us , in our sinless Mother through the blessings of The Lord helping us also to strive to be so , through repentance , forgiveness of accepting the Lord's merits , for the sinner/offender , and thanking The Lord for same , thus freeing one's heart from hatred ..easier done , when that Maternal warmth is there too may be ..accepting She as their Mother too ..
8.20.2012 | 2:21pm
harry says:
Hello, Dean,
If we have some common ground upon which it might be possible to reach some agreement on the proper Christian understanding of Mary, it might be typology -- the way the Scriptures teach us to understand the Scriptures -- especially regarding Old Testament types that prefigured New Testament antitypes. As St. Augustine pointed out, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.
The Scriptures themselves point out that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, the antitype corresponding to the type that was the Old Covenant Ark.
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”
-- Rev 11:19-12:1
Rev 11-19 and all of Rev 12 apply to the Church, or to Mary, or to both.
“... And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. ...”
-- Rev 12:4-5
The above excerpt from Rev 12:4-5 can only apply to Mary. The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ took His flesh from Mary, not the Church. Mary, not the Church, brought forth the Body of Christ, of which we may become members, making us the children of Mary:
“And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
-- Rev 12:17
The “rest of her seed,” her children, “who keep the commandments of God ...” would be you and me and other members of the Body of Christ. The idea that members of the Body of Christ are the children of Mary is ancient, as one would expect since that idea is Scriptural:
“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus and yet Jesus says to His mother, 'Woman behold thy son,' (John 19:26-27) and not 'Behold you have this son also,' then He virtually said to her, 'Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.' Is it not the case that everyone who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him? (Gal 2:20) And if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, 'Behold thy son Christ.'”
-- Origen [ c. A.D. 185 - A.D. 254 ], Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book I, #6
If Eve “was the mother of all the living.” (Gen 3:20) then the “New Eve,” Mary, is the mother of all those who possess a new life in Christ. The idea that Eve was a type of Mary, the New Eve, is ancient as well:
“... He became Man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent, might be also the very course by which it would be put down. For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied: 'Be it done unto me according to thy word.'”
-- St. Justin the Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho the Jew, #100. [ ca. A.D. 155 ]
The belief that Mary is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant is also ancient:
“For if to the ark, which was the image and type of thy sanctity, such honor was paid of God that to no one but to the priestly order only was the access to it open, or ingress allowed to behold it, the veil separating it off, and keeping the vestibule as that of a queen, what, and what sort of veneration is due ... to thee who art indeed a queen; to thee, the living ark of God, the Lawgiver; to thee, the heaven that contains Him who can be contained of none?
-- Methodius, [ martyred ca. A.D. 311 ], Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna
The New Testament understanding of Mary “lies hidden in the Old.” For example, the OT ark contained, among other things, manna, the “bread from heaven.” (John 6:31) The New Covenant Ark contained the flesh of Christ, the “true bread from Heaven.” (John 6:32).
And if the Ark of Old Covenant had to be pre-sanctified and anointed before it could contain the sacred (Exodus 30:25-26, 29) and had to be made incorruptible by the use of Setim wood, designated "incorruptible wood", in the Septuagint (Ex 25:10), then how much more did the New Covenant Ark have to be pre-sanctified and incorruptible, as it would contain not manna, but the sacred flesh of God Himself in His humanity, and also God in His divinity? As Methodius put it, New Covenant Ark was to be “the heaven that contains Him who can be contained of none.”
So, you see, the Catholic ideas of the Immaculate Conception and sinlessness of Mary, and of her Assumption, are all ancient and scriptural. The New Covenant Ark was pre-sanctified and anointed by her Immaculate Conception. She would not have to experience corruption, but would instead be assumed bodily into Heaven, because, like the Old Covenant Ark, she was incorruptible. Mary is the mother of Christians, the mother of the King of Kings, the Mother of God, and the origin of the Body of Christ, which is the Church. Reverence for her is as old as Christianity itself, and was prefigured by the reverence, respect and honor (not worship) that was paid to the Old Covenant Ark.
If we have some common ground upon which it might be possible to reach some agreement on the proper Christian understanding of Mary, it might be typology -- the way the Scriptures teach us to understand the Scriptures -- especially regarding Old Testament types that prefigured New Testament antitypes. As St. Augustine pointed out, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.
The Scriptures themselves point out that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, the antitype corresponding to the type that was the Old Covenant Ark.
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”
-- Rev 11:19-12:1
Rev 11-19 and all of Rev 12 apply to the Church, or to Mary, or to both.
“... And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. ...”
-- Rev 12:4-5
The above excerpt from Rev 12:4-5 can only apply to Mary. The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ took His flesh from Mary, not the Church. Mary, not the Church, brought forth the Body of Christ, of which we may become members, making us the children of Mary:
“And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
-- Rev 12:17
The “rest of her seed,” her children, “who keep the commandments of God ...” would be you and me and other members of the Body of Christ. The idea that members of the Body of Christ are the children of Mary is ancient, as one would expect since that idea is Scriptural:
“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus and yet Jesus says to His mother, 'Woman behold thy son,' (John 19:26-27) and not 'Behold you have this son also,' then He virtually said to her, 'Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.' Is it not the case that everyone who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him? (Gal 2:20) And if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, 'Behold thy son Christ.'”
-- Origen [ c. A.D. 185 - A.D. 254 ], Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book I, #6
If Eve “was the mother of all the living.” (Gen 3:20) then the “New Eve,” Mary, is the mother of all those who possess a new life in Christ. The idea that Eve was a type of Mary, the New Eve, is ancient as well:
“... He became Man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent, might be also the very course by which it would be put down. For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied: 'Be it done unto me according to thy word.'”
-- St. Justin the Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho the Jew, #100. [ ca. A.D. 155 ]
The belief that Mary is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant is also ancient:
“For if to the ark, which was the image and type of thy sanctity, such honor was paid of God that to no one but to the priestly order only was the access to it open, or ingress allowed to behold it, the veil separating it off, and keeping the vestibule as that of a queen, what, and what sort of veneration is due ... to thee who art indeed a queen; to thee, the living ark of God, the Lawgiver; to thee, the heaven that contains Him who can be contained of none?
-- Methodius, [ martyred ca. A.D. 311 ], Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna
The New Testament understanding of Mary “lies hidden in the Old.” For example, the OT ark contained, among other things, manna, the “bread from heaven.” (John 6:31) The New Covenant Ark contained the flesh of Christ, the “true bread from Heaven.” (John 6:32).
And if the Ark of Old Covenant had to be pre-sanctified and anointed before it could contain the sacred (Exodus 30:25-26, 29) and had to be made incorruptible by the use of Setim wood, designated "incorruptible wood", in the Septuagint (Ex 25:10), then how much more did the New Covenant Ark have to be pre-sanctified and incorruptible, as it would contain not manna, but the sacred flesh of God Himself in His humanity, and also God in His divinity? As Methodius put it, New Covenant Ark was to be “the heaven that contains Him who can be contained of none.”
So, you see, the Catholic ideas of the Immaculate Conception and sinlessness of Mary, and of her Assumption, are all ancient and scriptural. The New Covenant Ark was pre-sanctified and anointed by her Immaculate Conception. She would not have to experience corruption, but would instead be assumed bodily into Heaven, because, like the Old Covenant Ark, she was incorruptible. Mary is the mother of Christians, the mother of the King of Kings, the Mother of God, and the origin of the Body of Christ, which is the Church. Reverence for her is as old as Christianity itself, and was prefigured by the reverence, respect and honor (not worship) that was paid to the Old Covenant Ark.
8.20.2012 | 2:48pm
Gil says:
My best friend from childhood died last year, and it wasn't until after he died that I began to realize piecemeal the deeper depths of our friendship. It continues to amaze me, and in this amazement I sometimes find myself regretting that I didn't know his mother better (my friend's dad would not allow me to come to their house).
Jesus calls us friends. To me this signifies how radical the incarnation is. And the closer I get to his mother, my friendship with him deepens. Mary invites all her children to come to her (and Jesus on the Cross asks that we go to her as our mother), and as with beloved John, her company will only take us deeper into Jesus' life. Every one that knew my best friend’s mother agreed she was saintly. But the reason I now miss not having gotten to know her better is that I am sure I would have grown to know and love my friend even more.
Jesus calls us friends. To me this signifies how radical the incarnation is. And the closer I get to his mother, my friendship with him deepens. Mary invites all her children to come to her (and Jesus on the Cross asks that we go to her as our mother), and as with beloved John, her company will only take us deeper into Jesus' life. Every one that knew my best friend’s mother agreed she was saintly. But the reason I now miss not having gotten to know her better is that I am sure I would have grown to know and love my friend even more.
8.20.2012 | 3:10pm
Matt says:
To claim that "the immaculate conception of Mary is no more 'miraculous' than the baptism of an infant, adolescent, or adult" is a stretch of the theological imagination. Though both the Immaculate Conception and baptism are miraculous, it is difficult to classify one as more "miraculous" than the other, but, alas, we shall try.
The effects of baptism include the remission of original sin, freedom from the punishment due to sin, and a re-birth in the Holy Spirit. Baptism, then, is a necessity for salvation and strengthens man against sin. Conversely, the Immaculate Conception was reserved for only one human person; its effects included the impossibility and incapacity to commit sin while simultaneously respecting the recipient's humanness.
Though both are "miraculous," is not the one and only instance of the Immaculate Conception more "miraculous" than the billion-plus cases of baptism?
The effects of baptism include the remission of original sin, freedom from the punishment due to sin, and a re-birth in the Holy Spirit. Baptism, then, is a necessity for salvation and strengthens man against sin. Conversely, the Immaculate Conception was reserved for only one human person; its effects included the impossibility and incapacity to commit sin while simultaneously respecting the recipient's humanness.
Though both are "miraculous," is not the one and only instance of the Immaculate Conception more "miraculous" than the billion-plus cases of baptism?
8.20.2012 | 3:26pm
Dean from Ohio says:
@Craig Roberts - "Your theology owes more to the tradition of hate for the Catholic Church (prostest) [sic] than the Holy Spirit that is the spouse of Our Lady." Not so. Why would I be devoting time today praying for Catholics to see the truth of the Scriptures?
"but Luther would be spinning in his grave if he could hear you saying that veneration of Our Blessed Mother was idolatry" - Luther was wrong in several areas, such as anti-Semitism; his view of Mary, which I haven't studied, could be one of them. BTW, veneration of Mary *according to Scripture* cannot be idolatry; it is the extra-Biblical body of doctrine of Mary that goes beyond what Scripture plainly states that points one in that direction.
We should be especially on guard against temptations in that direction, given such phenomena as the remarkable continuity of the worship of the mother goddess Cybel in Asia Minor across the millennia, across the peoples, across the cultures, across the religions and across the cults that previously inhabited that region. That goddess has been called the Queen of Heaven before, and not by you Catholics.
I'm not saying that your veneration IS such idolatry, but aren't you at least a little concerned about the possibility of such syncretism occurring right among you, given its historical staying power? I am. All the apostles who wrote Scripture warn against such teachings arising right among us from among our own people. Indeed, Paul's warning against false teachers arising even among the elders of the church in Ephesus in Acts 19 came just a short time after the uproar in their city over the goddess Diana/Artemis in Acts 18. Here is his warning, the very next time he saw them after that event:
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." (Acts 19:29-31, KJV).
A few short decades later, Jesus himself warns the church at Ephesus in Revelation 2 that it had left its first love, namely Jesus himself. What or who was its new love? I don't know, but aren't you even a little concerned that what befell them may befall you,and all of us, as well? Satan excels in turning something good and beautiful into something evil, and has outwitted better men and women than you and I.
I pray that my daughters will follow the pure devotion, sincere faith and beautiful submission of Mary to God's will; but may Jesus always be their first and only spiritual love, "looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2, KJV)
"but Luther would be spinning in his grave if he could hear you saying that veneration of Our Blessed Mother was idolatry" - Luther was wrong in several areas, such as anti-Semitism; his view of Mary, which I haven't studied, could be one of them. BTW, veneration of Mary *according to Scripture* cannot be idolatry; it is the extra-Biblical body of doctrine of Mary that goes beyond what Scripture plainly states that points one in that direction.
We should be especially on guard against temptations in that direction, given such phenomena as the remarkable continuity of the worship of the mother goddess Cybel in Asia Minor across the millennia, across the peoples, across the cultures, across the religions and across the cults that previously inhabited that region. That goddess has been called the Queen of Heaven before, and not by you Catholics.
I'm not saying that your veneration IS such idolatry, but aren't you at least a little concerned about the possibility of such syncretism occurring right among you, given its historical staying power? I am. All the apostles who wrote Scripture warn against such teachings arising right among us from among our own people. Indeed, Paul's warning against false teachers arising even among the elders of the church in Ephesus in Acts 19 came just a short time after the uproar in their city over the goddess Diana/Artemis in Acts 18. Here is his warning, the very next time he saw them after that event:
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." (Acts 19:29-31, KJV).
A few short decades later, Jesus himself warns the church at Ephesus in Revelation 2 that it had left its first love, namely Jesus himself. What or who was its new love? I don't know, but aren't you even a little concerned that what befell them may befall you,and all of us, as well? Satan excels in turning something good and beautiful into something evil, and has outwitted better men and women than you and I.
I pray that my daughters will follow the pure devotion, sincere faith and beautiful submission of Mary to God's will; but may Jesus always be their first and only spiritual love, "looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2, KJV)
8.20.2012 | 3:45pm
Dean from Ohio says:
harry - "The above excerpt from Rev 12:4-5 can only apply to Mary." No, it could be the nation of Israel, referred to in Scriptures, such as Hosea, as the wife of God.
Thanks very much for your comment; I know we've been over this ground before; I do appreciate your effort to understand our differences and bridge the ones we can.
My difficulty in accepting the proposed types of Mary that you list, and every other one that I've ever heard of, is that they are never among those explicitly interpreted in Scripture. When types are expounded in Scripture, such as the first and second Adam in Romans 5 and the many type explanations in Hebrews, Mary is always glaringly absent. Furthermore, the reading of Mary into such types, even though ancient (or perhaps especially though ancient) also violates other the clear statements of Scripture, such as the one I quoted earlier, "he [Jesus] died for all." All means all.
I too desire common ground with you and other Catholics, but (as in a comment submitted a little while ago on this article), with Mary, here it is as far as I can see it:
I pray that my daughters will follow the pure devotion, sincere faith and beautiful submission of Mary to God's will; but may Jesus always be their first and only spiritual love, "looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2, KJV)
Thanks very much for your comment; I know we've been over this ground before; I do appreciate your effort to understand our differences and bridge the ones we can.
My difficulty in accepting the proposed types of Mary that you list, and every other one that I've ever heard of, is that they are never among those explicitly interpreted in Scripture. When types are expounded in Scripture, such as the first and second Adam in Romans 5 and the many type explanations in Hebrews, Mary is always glaringly absent. Furthermore, the reading of Mary into such types, even though ancient (or perhaps especially though ancient) also violates other the clear statements of Scripture, such as the one I quoted earlier, "he [Jesus] died for all." All means all.
I too desire common ground with you and other Catholics, but (as in a comment submitted a little while ago on this article), with Mary, here it is as far as I can see it:
I pray that my daughters will follow the pure devotion, sincere faith and beautiful submission of Mary to God's will; but may Jesus always be their first and only spiritual love, "looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2, KJV)
8.20.2012 | 3:45pm
Wesley L. Vincent, Ph.D. says:
A pray I wrote after entering the Catholic Church
A Protestant Convert’s Prayer:
Heavenly Father we pray that, in your mercy,
you will forgive those of us who have grieved your son Jesus Christ
by ignoring His Mother Mary, the Woman (Gen 3:15; Jn 2:4; 19:26f; Gal. 4:4; Rev. 12)
whom he honors. (Ex. 20:12; Lk 2:51)
That same Mary about whom, just like each of us,
You said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.
Before you were born I dedicated you.” (Jer. 1:5; Psalms 22:10, 139:13-16; Isaiah 49:1b)
And of whom Isaiah said, “The virgin shall be with child, and bear a son,
and shall name Him Immanuel, God with us.” (Isa. 7:14)
And Micah declared, “Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth.” (Micah 5:3a)
She, whom the angel Gabriel addressed as, “Hail, full of grace,
the Lord is with you… The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy,
the Son of God.” (Lk 1:28-35)
And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord;
let it be to me according to your word." (Lk 1:38)
“Behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.” (Lk 1:48)
Elizabeth declared, "Blessed are you among women.
Blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Blessed is… the mother of my Lord, who believed…
what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:42, 45).
Simeon prophesied her suffering saying,
“A sword will pierce through your own soul also” (Lk 2:35).
Lord Jesus Christ, we pray that in your mercy
you will forgive those of us who have defied Scripture by not blessing Mary (Lk 1:48).
By the power of the Holy Spirit
grant that we may one day enjoy full communion with
your Church and all your saints.
Grant that by recognizing you as our Savior and brother (Rom 8:23; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5)
we may recognize Mary as our Blessed Mother (Jn 19:26-27: Rev. 12:17).
Blessed Mary, at whose request, you revealed your glory at Cana (Jn 2:1-11).
Blessed Mary, Mother of the “Lord of lords” (Lk 1:43; Rev. 17:14),
Blessed Mary, Mother of the “King of kings” (Rev 17:14),
Blessed Mary, Mother of God (Lk 1:43; Jn 1:1),
“Clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet,
on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev. 12:1),
Blessed Mary reigns as Queen Mother of your Kingdom (Ps 45:6-9 NKJV; Rev. 11:18-19).
Grant that all who love you, grow to love her.
Grant us understanding that to honor you, is a blessing to her,
and to bless her, is to honor you. Amen
A Protestant Convert’s Prayer:
Heavenly Father we pray that, in your mercy,
you will forgive those of us who have grieved your son Jesus Christ
by ignoring His Mother Mary, the Woman (Gen 3:15; Jn 2:4; 19:26f; Gal. 4:4; Rev. 12)
whom he honors. (Ex. 20:12; Lk 2:51)
That same Mary about whom, just like each of us,
You said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.
Before you were born I dedicated you.” (Jer. 1:5; Psalms 22:10, 139:13-16; Isaiah 49:1b)
And of whom Isaiah said, “The virgin shall be with child, and bear a son,
and shall name Him Immanuel, God with us.” (Isa. 7:14)
And Micah declared, “Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth.” (Micah 5:3a)
She, whom the angel Gabriel addressed as, “Hail, full of grace,
the Lord is with you… The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy,
the Son of God.” (Lk 1:28-35)
And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord;
let it be to me according to your word." (Lk 1:38)
“Behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.” (Lk 1:48)
Elizabeth declared, "Blessed are you among women.
Blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Blessed is… the mother of my Lord, who believed…
what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:42, 45).
Simeon prophesied her suffering saying,
“A sword will pierce through your own soul also” (Lk 2:35).
Lord Jesus Christ, we pray that in your mercy
you will forgive those of us who have defied Scripture by not blessing Mary (Lk 1:48).
By the power of the Holy Spirit
grant that we may one day enjoy full communion with
your Church and all your saints.
Grant that by recognizing you as our Savior and brother (Rom 8:23; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5)
we may recognize Mary as our Blessed Mother (Jn 19:26-27: Rev. 12:17).
Blessed Mary, at whose request, you revealed your glory at Cana (Jn 2:1-11).
Blessed Mary, Mother of the “Lord of lords” (Lk 1:43; Rev. 17:14),
Blessed Mary, Mother of the “King of kings” (Rev 17:14),
Blessed Mary, Mother of God (Lk 1:43; Jn 1:1),
“Clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet,
on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev. 12:1),
Blessed Mary reigns as Queen Mother of your Kingdom (Ps 45:6-9 NKJV; Rev. 11:18-19).
Grant that all who love you, grow to love her.
Grant us understanding that to honor you, is a blessing to her,
and to bless her, is to honor you. Amen
8.20.2012 | 5:11pm
Richard says:
One of the touchstones of the possible authenticity of a Marian apparition is its pointing to Jesus. One of the quickest ways to detect the demonic nature of any kind of supernatural vision is to ask the appearing being (if not Jesus) to praise Jesus as Lord. If it won't, it's bogus. An hallucination or worse.
Best,
Richard
Best,
Richard
8.20.2012 | 5:11pm
Charles Lewis says:
Wonderful column. The idea of simple peasant Mary soaring into Heaven to be the Queen of the Church and the Universe is perhaps the most beautiful story of all time. For those who have trouble with Mary, my answer is this: lighten up. Stop listening the story with your head or your theology books but listen with your heart. How wonderful to have a Mother such as Mary. I've now lost count how many situations Mary has gotten me through. It does not detract from Jesus but reminds us even more of who Jesus is: fully human and fully Divine. Christianity without Mary is a shadow.
8.20.2012 | 6:31pm
Craig Roberts says:
@Dean from Ohio
Thanks for the response. You are quite right to point to the very real and serious dangers of idolatry, superstition, and syncretism. The ONLY way that fallen man can avoid such dangers is to remain in the true vine that is Jesus. Let's all pray that the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary will illuminate our minds and drive out every heresy.
@Wesley Vincent, PhD.,
Congratulations and welcome home! Thank you for your beautiful prayers.
Thanks for the response. You are quite right to point to the very real and serious dangers of idolatry, superstition, and syncretism. The ONLY way that fallen man can avoid such dangers is to remain in the true vine that is Jesus. Let's all pray that the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary will illuminate our minds and drive out every heresy.
@Wesley Vincent, PhD.,
Congratulations and welcome home! Thank you for your beautiful prayers.
8.20.2012 | 7:48pm
harry says:
Hi, Dean,
You wrote: "No, it could be the nation of Israel, referred to in Scriptures, such as Hosea, as the wife of God."
I meant that if we are going to assign a passage from Rev 11:19 through the end of Rev 12 as a reference to the Church, or to Mary, or to both, that particular passage would be in reference to Mary alone because the Church did not bring forth the Body of Christ. Mary did that.
You wrote: "When types are expounded in Scripture, such as the first and second Adam in Romans 5 and the many type explanations in Hebrews, Mary is always glaringly absent."
I guess I shouldn't have expected you to grasp that which is implicit (that which you call "glaringly absent") in the Scriptures since you haven't yet grasped that which explicit (or "glaringly present"), such as the necessity of charitable works along with faith to obtain salvation:
For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be **burnt.**
-- Heb 6:7
(Note that Heb 6 is here speaking of those who were once saved but fell away -- became "unsaved" -- and in the end they are burnt for not bearing good fruit.)
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away ... he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are **burned.**
-- John 15:2,6
(Note that the branch was in Him -- saved -- and was then taken away -- became unsaved -- and its end was to be burned, because it "beareth not fruit.")
Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into **everlasting fire** which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. ...
-- Matthew 25:41-42
(Once again, those who bear no fruit in charitable works are burned.)
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
-- James 2:14-20
Time and constraints on the length of this post do not permit me to list every place in the New Testament where it is made clear that faith alone is insufficient for obtaining salvation, and that bearing fruit in charity is also necessary, but I list these few examples to make the point that Protestant theology is very selective about the verses it uses to come up with its new theory of salvation, one in which the clear meaning of much of the rest of Scripture is "glaringly absent," as is consistency with the thought of the Church Fathers (which was the traditional belief of the Church prior to Protestantism, and remains the belief of more Christians than not.)
Much of contemporary Protestantism does this also regarding traditional Christian belief regarding Mary (it was not always this way). That which is implicit in the Scriptures will continue to seem “glaringly absent” to you as long as you remain willfully oblivious to what is “glaringly present” in the Scriptures and was “glaringly present” in the belief of the Church before Protestantism and continues to be for more Christians than not.
You wrote: "No, it could be the nation of Israel, referred to in Scriptures, such as Hosea, as the wife of God."
I meant that if we are going to assign a passage from Rev 11:19 through the end of Rev 12 as a reference to the Church, or to Mary, or to both, that particular passage would be in reference to Mary alone because the Church did not bring forth the Body of Christ. Mary did that.
You wrote: "When types are expounded in Scripture, such as the first and second Adam in Romans 5 and the many type explanations in Hebrews, Mary is always glaringly absent."
I guess I shouldn't have expected you to grasp that which is implicit (that which you call "glaringly absent") in the Scriptures since you haven't yet grasped that which explicit (or "glaringly present"), such as the necessity of charitable works along with faith to obtain salvation:
For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be **burnt.**
-- Heb 6:7
(Note that Heb 6 is here speaking of those who were once saved but fell away -- became "unsaved" -- and in the end they are burnt for not bearing good fruit.)
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away ... he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are **burned.**
-- John 15:2,6
(Note that the branch was in Him -- saved -- and was then taken away -- became unsaved -- and its end was to be burned, because it "beareth not fruit.")
Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into **everlasting fire** which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. ...
-- Matthew 25:41-42
(Once again, those who bear no fruit in charitable works are burned.)
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
-- James 2:14-20
Time and constraints on the length of this post do not permit me to list every place in the New Testament where it is made clear that faith alone is insufficient for obtaining salvation, and that bearing fruit in charity is also necessary, but I list these few examples to make the point that Protestant theology is very selective about the verses it uses to come up with its new theory of salvation, one in which the clear meaning of much of the rest of Scripture is "glaringly absent," as is consistency with the thought of the Church Fathers (which was the traditional belief of the Church prior to Protestantism, and remains the belief of more Christians than not.)
Much of contemporary Protestantism does this also regarding traditional Christian belief regarding Mary (it was not always this way). That which is implicit in the Scriptures will continue to seem “glaringly absent” to you as long as you remain willfully oblivious to what is “glaringly present” in the Scriptures and was “glaringly present” in the belief of the Church before Protestantism and continues to be for more Christians than not.
8.20.2012 | 8:11pm
A.M . says:
@Matt, think there might be some correction in the Bl.Mother 's 'impossibilty ' of committing sin of not trusting enough in The Lord - that would seem to take away her free will ..
Eve too was made in an 'Imamculate ' manner , yet used her free will , to trust the enemy ..
The Bl.Mother's immaculate nature would have helped her to grasp better , the extent of the stupendous role , she was being invited to accept or reject ..and she chose to trust and accept - possily even knowing enough about the sufferings of what that role would entail too , to some extent , from her familiarity with O.T or from The Holy Spirit ..
That would have made a true use of her freedom of the will , which would make it thus more meritorius ,against the claims of the enemy , whom she is meant to put to flight, thus helping us , in our weaknesses of faith and trust in what and how God want us to enter and live in The Kingdom !
Eve too was made in an 'Imamculate ' manner , yet used her free will , to trust the enemy ..
The Bl.Mother's immaculate nature would have helped her to grasp better , the extent of the stupendous role , she was being invited to accept or reject ..and she chose to trust and accept - possily even knowing enough about the sufferings of what that role would entail too , to some extent , from her familiarity with O.T or from The Holy Spirit ..
That would have made a true use of her freedom of the will , which would make it thus more meritorius ,against the claims of the enemy , whom she is meant to put to flight, thus helping us , in our weaknesses of faith and trust in what and how God want us to enter and live in The Kingdom !
8.20.2012 | 10:08pm
CJ says:
Dean,
There's a big difference between actually knowing Jesus and just knowing 'about' him. Once you know him personally, all the most sophisticated and eloquent arguments of the agnostics and atheists just evaporate into thin air. It's the same with Mary. Pray similar to the atheist's prayer, with humility, "Jesus, I desire only to do your will. Just in case I could possibly be wrong about this, if you want me to accept your mother, Mary, as my heavenly mother, and to love her and pray to her, please let me know it in a way that I will understand." There's a secret millions and millions of Catholics through history have tried to share with the world, but hardened hearts can't receive. We have a personal relationship with her! She loves us and is truly our mother, and yours, just like Jesus said from the cross, "Behold your mother." She is with us in our daily lives, helping us in every way to bring us closer to her son, Jesus. She is the handmaid of the Lord. She takes nothing away from him. Your arguments are so thoughtful and coming from a good heart, but the arguments of one who only knows 'about' her--they are like vapor to those who have a personal relationship with her.
There's a big difference between actually knowing Jesus and just knowing 'about' him. Once you know him personally, all the most sophisticated and eloquent arguments of the agnostics and atheists just evaporate into thin air. It's the same with Mary. Pray similar to the atheist's prayer, with humility, "Jesus, I desire only to do your will. Just in case I could possibly be wrong about this, if you want me to accept your mother, Mary, as my heavenly mother, and to love her and pray to her, please let me know it in a way that I will understand." There's a secret millions and millions of Catholics through history have tried to share with the world, but hardened hearts can't receive. We have a personal relationship with her! She loves us and is truly our mother, and yours, just like Jesus said from the cross, "Behold your mother." She is with us in our daily lives, helping us in every way to bring us closer to her son, Jesus. She is the handmaid of the Lord. She takes nothing away from him. Your arguments are so thoughtful and coming from a good heart, but the arguments of one who only knows 'about' her--they are like vapor to those who have a personal relationship with her.
8.21.2012 | 2:36am
Don Roberto says:
How anyone could see veneration of Mary—the Mother of God, who literally shared His blood in the womb, whose instruction He was and is bound for eternity to obey (perfect childthat He is), the First Disciple, from whom the authors of Holy Scripture received much of the Good News (presumably, since there was no other witness), and whose continued intervention in history is so clear (e.g., Guadalupe, Lourdes, etc.)—as a corruption of the faith is beyond me. I'm with St Louis de Montfort and the Fathers of the Church: "it is an infallible mark of reprobation to have no esteem and love for the Holy Virgin." †
8.21.2012 | 5:37am
Peter says:
First time I saw Mary - she was looking at someone, something. She was in a prayerful pose. I was curious as are all five year olds. So asked my mother with me at the time,
"Who is she and who is she looking up to ?" "Her name is Mary. She is looking to Jesus."
Then I began to learn all about Jesus - and no better teacher than a Mother - my own.
Mother Mary doesn't like it when God's children fight n' wrangle.
Think more about how to love each other and the rest will take care of itself.
Your own souls will learn to magnify the Lord and exult in God your Saviour.
Just like Mary's who began to point and show me towards and learn the fullest meanings of, "The Way, The Truth and The Light...... "
Still on that learning curve. :-)
God bless us ALL.
"Who is she and who is she looking up to ?" "Her name is Mary. She is looking to Jesus."
Then I began to learn all about Jesus - and no better teacher than a Mother - my own.
Mother Mary doesn't like it when God's children fight n' wrangle.
Think more about how to love each other and the rest will take care of itself.
Your own souls will learn to magnify the Lord and exult in God your Saviour.
Just like Mary's who began to point and show me towards and learn the fullest meanings of, "The Way, The Truth and The Light...... "
Still on that learning curve. :-)
God bless us ALL.
8.21.2012 | 8:05am
patricksarsfield says:
One of the things that always struck me as odd about the Protestant approach to Mary and to salvation is how so many of them (not all of them, of course) look to put Mary down as a sinner and to downplay the significance of human efforts to conform to the will of God. None of us can read the Mind of God and none of us can know we are saved until God pronounces His Judgment, so why don't we all stop trying to judge Mary and get on with the business of living our lives as best we can? And in that regard, Mary is an inspiration to me.
Do I know the difference between God and the Virgin Mary? Of course. I also know the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.
I am so happy that, through Christ's Holy Catholic Church, I have made the acquaintance of the Ever Virgin Mother of God, Mary Most Holy. With the hundreds of millions of Eastern Orthodox and Eastern independents and the billions of Catholics (and an indeterminate number of Protestants too), I can claim spiritual filiation to the very woman that gave birth in human flesh to God. I wouldn't miss that for all the rights protestants claim to decide the meaning of the Bible themselves and to being saved based on Faith Alone (despite the clear message of James 2:24 to the contrary).
Do I know the difference between God and the Virgin Mary? Of course. I also know the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.
I am so happy that, through Christ's Holy Catholic Church, I have made the acquaintance of the Ever Virgin Mother of God, Mary Most Holy. With the hundreds of millions of Eastern Orthodox and Eastern independents and the billions of Catholics (and an indeterminate number of Protestants too), I can claim spiritual filiation to the very woman that gave birth in human flesh to God. I wouldn't miss that for all the rights protestants claim to decide the meaning of the Bible themselves and to being saved based on Faith Alone (despite the clear message of James 2:24 to the contrary).
8.21.2012 | 8:52am
A. Gabriel says:
To all Protestants: Catholics do NOT worship Mary. We honor, respect, and love Her as the Mother of Jesus. And it was Jews and Catholics who wrote the Bible, the only true Bible. The protestants have missed the boat; they do not even have the Holy Eucharist or consecration. It is the best gift ever to be a Catholic as our religion showers us with God's graces, mercies, and love.
8.21.2012 | 9:27am
Mick Lee says:
What strikes out with this Lutheran is that same fault line chasm between Lutheranism and Catholicism that lies behind most of our differences and with this one in particular. Lutherans look to Scripture and ask two simple questions: 1.) Where is the command to venerate Mary to the extent Catholics do? 2.) Where is the promise associated with this veneration?
Neither command nor promise are there. For Lutherans (and by extension other Protestants), the resolution of the issue ends there.
“Needless to say, the bible does not say anything about all this, but the doctrine follows from some simple reasoning about what the bible does say” As for Mr. Reno’s notion, no. It isn’t simple reasoning, it is speculation and classic Lutheran theology abhors speculation. I am sure Mr. Reno would disagree with Lutheran characterization of his “simple reasoning” as “in reality speculation”; but there it stands.
The fact is many, many Catholics agree with Mr. Lewis when he states: “How wonderful to have a Mother such as Mary. I've now lost count how many situations Mary has gotten me through.” Undoubtedly, Catholics like Mr. Lewis speak out of conviction and sincerity. But, on the other hand, many, many Lutherans go through their whole lives without any felt need for such a mother—neither perceiving a drop of absence nor impoverished spiritual grace. In addition, when God has lifted His hand to heal and save us from dangers and strife, we credit these interventions directly to Christ Jesus. My point is not one upsmanship between Lutherans and Catholics. Rather that if Catholics are apt to cite personal experiences, there are powerful counter-experiences as well. And between Scripture and experience, Lutherans give experience no weight at all. The experiences on neither side have any bearing on the testimony of Scripture.
In the end, Lutherans and Catholics work from powerfully difference theological premises. That is no reason not to work together and dialog, just accept the fact that many of our joint statements and agreements have had and will have the wholesomeness of dish water.
Neither command nor promise are there. For Lutherans (and by extension other Protestants), the resolution of the issue ends there.
“Needless to say, the bible does not say anything about all this, but the doctrine follows from some simple reasoning about what the bible does say” As for Mr. Reno’s notion, no. It isn’t simple reasoning, it is speculation and classic Lutheran theology abhors speculation. I am sure Mr. Reno would disagree with Lutheran characterization of his “simple reasoning” as “in reality speculation”; but there it stands.
The fact is many, many Catholics agree with Mr. Lewis when he states: “How wonderful to have a Mother such as Mary. I've now lost count how many situations Mary has gotten me through.” Undoubtedly, Catholics like Mr. Lewis speak out of conviction and sincerity. But, on the other hand, many, many Lutherans go through their whole lives without any felt need for such a mother—neither perceiving a drop of absence nor impoverished spiritual grace. In addition, when God has lifted His hand to heal and save us from dangers and strife, we credit these interventions directly to Christ Jesus. My point is not one upsmanship between Lutherans and Catholics. Rather that if Catholics are apt to cite personal experiences, there are powerful counter-experiences as well. And between Scripture and experience, Lutherans give experience no weight at all. The experiences on neither side have any bearing on the testimony of Scripture.
In the end, Lutherans and Catholics work from powerfully difference theological premises. That is no reason not to work together and dialog, just accept the fact that many of our joint statements and agreements have had and will have the wholesomeness of dish water.
8.21.2012 | 9:44am
Jo says:
All Catholics and especially Protestant & Evangelican Pastors know that If you pray to Mary she will bring you to her son Jesus and his true Church. Truly they are frightend of Mother Mary, as is Satan.
8.21.2012 | 11:30am
Mick Lee says:
Jo: "especially Protestant & Evangelican Pastors know...”? What planet are you on? In addition, to the extent they ever think about her, I have never met a Protestant who was scared of Mary. At the very least, most Protestants consider Mariology a waste of time.
8.21.2012 | 12:49pm
Dean from Ohio says:
Hi harry, thanks again for your comment. I'm sorry if I've offended you.
I don't dispute any of the verses you cite. However, since there are also many verses that say unambiguously that faith without works is how we receive salvation (but none that imply that salvation of sinful man is only by works), we have an apparent contradiction. As one who believes in verbal plenary inspiration, including that the scriptures are inerrant in their original autographs (manuscripts), there must be a way to resolve this issue in that they are both somehow correct, since they are both explicit.
The closest I have gotten to understanding how God will resolve this tension is the illustration that faith and works are like a two-part admission ticket. The faith portion is what gains me admission, and the works part, like a holographic stamp, validates the faith.
The case of the Catholic (and Orthodox, etc.) view of Mary in the Scriptures is quite different than faith and works. All of the arguments for Christ alone as sole Redeemer, King, Son of God, Second Adam, etc. are explicit, and many are exclusive as they describe these roles. Meanwhile, all of the arguments--every one of them--for Mary as Co-Redemptrix, Mater Dei (better, theotokos, God bearer), Queen of Heaven and the like are implicit in Scripture at best, and many create new contradictions with other Scriptures. Additionally, although there are fulfilled prophecies that apply to Mary (i.e., the virgin shall conceive, apparently a dual fulfillment), no types are explicitly directed her way.
As much as many people may wish it to be otherwise, that's all there is.
My question is, if it is so important, why did not God put any of it in Scripture?
I don't dispute any of the verses you cite. However, since there are also many verses that say unambiguously that faith without works is how we receive salvation (but none that imply that salvation of sinful man is only by works), we have an apparent contradiction. As one who believes in verbal plenary inspiration, including that the scriptures are inerrant in their original autographs (manuscripts), there must be a way to resolve this issue in that they are both somehow correct, since they are both explicit.
The closest I have gotten to understanding how God will resolve this tension is the illustration that faith and works are like a two-part admission ticket. The faith portion is what gains me admission, and the works part, like a holographic stamp, validates the faith.
The case of the Catholic (and Orthodox, etc.) view of Mary in the Scriptures is quite different than faith and works. All of the arguments for Christ alone as sole Redeemer, King, Son of God, Second Adam, etc. are explicit, and many are exclusive as they describe these roles. Meanwhile, all of the arguments--every one of them--for Mary as Co-Redemptrix, Mater Dei (better, theotokos, God bearer), Queen of Heaven and the like are implicit in Scripture at best, and many create new contradictions with other Scriptures. Additionally, although there are fulfilled prophecies that apply to Mary (i.e., the virgin shall conceive, apparently a dual fulfillment), no types are explicitly directed her way.
As much as many people may wish it to be otherwise, that's all there is.
My question is, if it is so important, why did not God put any of it in Scripture?
8.21.2012 | 4:19pm
mjoe says:
Mother Mary is the most humblest person. It is her humility that won favors with God, that he elevated her to the level of being The Mother of God. She desired nothing more on earth than to remain hidden and unknown to others but only to be known to God. In answer to her prayers to be hidden and lowly, God was pleased to conceal her from nearly every humans. She is the masterpiece of Almighty God, he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself.
It was through her Jesus came to this world, and through her he must reign in the world. Mother Mary never asked herself to be glorified, she always points everybody to her son. She was there at the foot of the cross, The Sorrowful Mother when Jesus died and she was there in the upper room at Pentecost when the church, the bride of christ started to take shape. All of us here on earth, who argue about her holiness and uniquness, will come to understand more when our life here is over and we meet her in heaven. In the meantime all you people who oppose her authencity, do'nt you realize that you are committing a sin against the 4th commandment - HONOUR YOUR FATHER & MOTHER.., afterall Jesus gave his mother to the world at the foot of the cross, how do you think Jesus feels when you blaspheme his mother, to whom he has such great respect and esteem??
It was through her Jesus came to this world, and through her he must reign in the world. Mother Mary never asked herself to be glorified, she always points everybody to her son. She was there at the foot of the cross, The Sorrowful Mother when Jesus died and she was there in the upper room at Pentecost when the church, the bride of christ started to take shape. All of us here on earth, who argue about her holiness and uniquness, will come to understand more when our life here is over and we meet her in heaven. In the meantime all you people who oppose her authencity, do'nt you realize that you are committing a sin against the 4th commandment - HONOUR YOUR FATHER & MOTHER.., afterall Jesus gave his mother to the world at the foot of the cross, how do you think Jesus feels when you blaspheme his mother, to whom he has such great respect and esteem??
8.21.2012 | 5:31pm
harry says:
Hi, Dean,
I was not offended. Exasperated maybe, but not offended. ;o)
"... if it is so important, why did not God put any of it in Scripture?"
The truth about Mary is in the Scriptures implicitly. The inspired word of God doesn't have within it explicitly all the truth about Mary; it was Mary who explicitly had the Truth, the very Word of God, within her.
The Scriptures themselves attest to the fact that some truths are not within them explicitly:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
– Hebrews 6:1-3
What were those “principles of the doctrine of Christ”? What was “the doctrine of baptisms”? What was the doctrine “of laying on of hands”? Of “eternal judgment”? The author of Hebrews mentions topics previously covered and says he is not going to go over them again. The Scriptures tell us there was essential, foundational Christian teaching that isn't explicitly in the Scriptures.
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
– 2 Thes 2:14-15
The Scriptures don't explicitly record what those traditions were that they must hold on to if they are to receive a share of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't know what they were taught through oral preaching. We don't have all the epistles written to them.
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
– John 21:25
The Scriptures themselves assert that the Gospels don't contain but a tiny fraction of all there was to say about the life and teachings of Jesus. For example, none of the four gospels have Jesus saying “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” We only know Jesus said that from Paul mentioning in passing that He did so:
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
– Acts 20:35
What else did Jesus say and do that neither Paul, nor any of the other apostles happened to mention in passing in one of their epistles? The world itself could not contain the books that would have to be written to contain everything Jesus said and did.
So, is all that lost to us? No. Because Jesus said:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
– John 14:26
So the truths in all those other things Jesus said are available to us, but not found explicitly in the Scriptures. Where are they found then? Here is a clue:
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
– 1 Tim 3:15
I was not offended. Exasperated maybe, but not offended. ;o)
"... if it is so important, why did not God put any of it in Scripture?"
The truth about Mary is in the Scriptures implicitly. The inspired word of God doesn't have within it explicitly all the truth about Mary; it was Mary who explicitly had the Truth, the very Word of God, within her.
The Scriptures themselves attest to the fact that some truths are not within them explicitly:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
– Hebrews 6:1-3
What were those “principles of the doctrine of Christ”? What was “the doctrine of baptisms”? What was the doctrine “of laying on of hands”? Of “eternal judgment”? The author of Hebrews mentions topics previously covered and says he is not going to go over them again. The Scriptures tell us there was essential, foundational Christian teaching that isn't explicitly in the Scriptures.
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
– 2 Thes 2:14-15
The Scriptures don't explicitly record what those traditions were that they must hold on to if they are to receive a share of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't know what they were taught through oral preaching. We don't have all the epistles written to them.
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
– John 21:25
The Scriptures themselves assert that the Gospels don't contain but a tiny fraction of all there was to say about the life and teachings of Jesus. For example, none of the four gospels have Jesus saying “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” We only know Jesus said that from Paul mentioning in passing that He did so:
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
– Acts 20:35
What else did Jesus say and do that neither Paul, nor any of the other apostles happened to mention in passing in one of their epistles? The world itself could not contain the books that would have to be written to contain everything Jesus said and did.
So, is all that lost to us? No. Because Jesus said:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
– John 14:26
So the truths in all those other things Jesus said are available to us, but not found explicitly in the Scriptures. Where are they found then? Here is a clue:
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
– 1 Tim 3:15
8.21.2012 | 6:17pm
Dean from Ohio says:
@mjoe - "...how do you think Jesus feels when you blaspheme his mother, to whom he has such great respect and esteem?"
Probably something like this:
"Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. And he was told, 'Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.' But he answered them, 'My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.' " Luke 8:19-21 ESV
Probably not like this:
"When they heard this they were enraged and were crying out, 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!' " - Acts 19:28 ESV
Probably something like this:
"Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. And he was told, 'Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.' But he answered them, 'My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.' " Luke 8:19-21 ESV
Probably not like this:
"When they heard this they were enraged and were crying out, 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!' " - Acts 19:28 ESV
8.21.2012 | 6:42pm
Don Roberto says:
Dean, scriptura alone mean multiple interpretacíon (in the absence of a final arbiter, e.g., the Magisterium). And scripture itself refers to unwritten truths. Why reject the Fathers? Anyway, if you really wanted an invitation to a private party, and you were able to get the owner's mom to invite you . . .
When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27. Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" (Jn 19:26-27)
If you are open-minded, I would suggest you start by praising God, among the myriad other things, for sending us the saints, including especially His mother, as examples. †
When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27. Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" (Jn 19:26-27)
If you are open-minded, I would suggest you start by praising God, among the myriad other things, for sending us the saints, including especially His mother, as examples. †
8.21.2012 | 10:02pm
Dean from Ohio says:
Let's try again...
@jmoe - "how do you think Jesus feels when you blaspheme his mother, to whom he has such great respect and esteem??"
It isn't blasphemy to discuss respectfully what Scripture says and doesn't say about Mary or anyone else.
I have a question for you: do you realize the similarity between your comment and those of the worshipers of Diana/Artemis in Acts 19?
" 'There is danger ... that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty.' When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting: 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!' ... They shouted in unison for about two hours: 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!' " (Acts 19:27-28, 34 NIV84)
In that case, even the pagan city clerk showed remarkable good sense:
"The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: 'Men of Ephesus, doesn’t all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven? Therefore, since these facts are undeniable, you ought to be quiet and not do anything rash. You have brought these men here, though they have neither robbed temples nor blasphemed our goddess.... As it is, we are in danger of being charged with rioting because of today’s events. In that case we would not be able to account for this commotion, since there is no reason for it.' After he had said this, he dismissed the assembly." (Acts 19:35-36, 40-41 NIV84)
Really, by looking at the Scripture and trying to understand and obey it, I am just honestly trying to follow Jesus' own teaching:
"Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.' He replied, 'My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.' " (Luke 8:19-21, NIV84)
I'm trying to hear God's word and put it into practice, as should we all.
@jmoe - "how do you think Jesus feels when you blaspheme his mother, to whom he has such great respect and esteem??"
It isn't blasphemy to discuss respectfully what Scripture says and doesn't say about Mary or anyone else.
I have a question for you: do you realize the similarity between your comment and those of the worshipers of Diana/Artemis in Acts 19?
" 'There is danger ... that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty.' When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting: 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!' ... They shouted in unison for about two hours: 'Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!' " (Acts 19:27-28, 34 NIV84)
In that case, even the pagan city clerk showed remarkable good sense:
"The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: 'Men of Ephesus, doesn’t all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven? Therefore, since these facts are undeniable, you ought to be quiet and not do anything rash. You have brought these men here, though they have neither robbed temples nor blasphemed our goddess.... As it is, we are in danger of being charged with rioting because of today’s events. In that case we would not be able to account for this commotion, since there is no reason for it.' After he had said this, he dismissed the assembly." (Acts 19:35-36, 40-41 NIV84)
Really, by looking at the Scripture and trying to understand and obey it, I am just honestly trying to follow Jesus' own teaching:
"Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.' He replied, 'My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.' " (Luke 8:19-21, NIV84)
I'm trying to hear God's word and put it into practice, as should we all.
8.22.2012 | 2:12am
vero says:
To understand supernatural things we need supernatural help. For all those who denigrate and dismiss our Blessed Mother Mary (she is your Mother too, for Jesus did give her to us and us to her from the Cross in John 19:26-27), JUST PLEASE, entrust a problem to her. Do it with humility and with a sincere heart. Perhaps it is a family member who struggles with alcoholism or drugs or pornography, or some other sin of the flesh. Maybe it is sin of flesh you yourself struggle with. Submit your prayer each day to her for that person (or yourself) for some time - maybe for 30-60 days - and watch what happens. Add the invocation, "Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us who have recourse to Thee." When you start to see things beginning to change, don't dismiss what happens as just being "the time" for the problem to end...continue to turn to her. And give thanks to God for the incredible gift He has given us in Our Blessed Mother!
Mary reigns now in Heaven with Jesus. She is the "woman" of both Gen. 3:15 and Rev. 12. We Catholics love her for many reasons but perhaps one that non-Catholics fail to think about is because we have seen the real and living power of her intercession in our own lives and in the lives of our family members. The Church has recognized this many times, including at Lepanto in 1571 and Vienna in 1683. This power of her intercession is a gift God permits, for Mary can do nothing unless He permits it. But if He permits her intercession to be particularly powerful for our problems (as He did at Cana in John 2), who are we to question God's ways? And who are we to reject this path He has provided for us? We can debate Scripture all day long but in the end, it is about real experiences of God in our lives that serve to truly deepen our faith, even convert us. And in so many instances over the past 2000 years, God has chosen to work through Mary. In 1531 God converted some 9,000,000 Aztec Indians in Mexico to His truth through her. Now that's some powerful intercession! Pray to her. The Lord listens to her prayers and responds in power. Again, He gave us that example at Cana if you seek a Scriptural example. But watch what happens not only in those for whom you are praying to her but also within yourself and your interactions with immediate family members and co-workers. She will bring Christ, Who is our peace (Eph. 2:14), into your relationships in a new way. You will notice this. This is not some "lucky charm" or "magical" kind of a thing - the power of her intercession is a spiritual reality permitted by God. It can and has been experienced in a real and living way by millions and millions of people all over the world. Persevere in prayer and remember - humility, humility, humility in your prayer; she is a sacred vessel, not some clay pot.
And this why I am so passionate about the reality of her intercession: It was through the Blessed Mother that I was brought back to Jesus from the brink of hell 5 years ago - I was wrapped up in materialism and all the trappings of the world and I was miserable but didn't really know it. On the outside my life looked perfect in every way - great education, great job, great salary, great house, great car, great husband, great kids - my life was "great" by the world's standards. But then the Lord broke into my life through Mary (and her Rosary) and removed the scales from my eyes. It happened so subtley that I didn't really understand what was happening at first. As the Lord began to open my stoney heart through her, every single thing in my life got better, first and foremost my marraige and my relationship with my children. Yes, Jesus changed me, but it started through Mary. Satan holds no power over me anymore regarding material things or fleshy temptations. Through Mary, the Immaculate Conception's intercession, Jesus freed me from that 20-year yoke. Mary is still cooperating with her Son in Heaven. She's active, and Our Lord wants us to call upon her help. He, afterall, called upon her help Himself when He sent Gabriel to ask her if she would be His Mother. He could have come into the world any way He wanted --- but He chose to come through a woman - THE Woman, Mary --- and He "asked" for her help. He allowed her to exercise the gift of her free will. And she chose for God, surrendering her entire life in love to and for Him. And the rest, as they say, is history. Maybe we should follow God's Own example and ask for her help too.
Happy Feast of the Queenship of Mary! (Aug. 22)
Mary reigns now in Heaven with Jesus. She is the "woman" of both Gen. 3:15 and Rev. 12. We Catholics love her for many reasons but perhaps one that non-Catholics fail to think about is because we have seen the real and living power of her intercession in our own lives and in the lives of our family members. The Church has recognized this many times, including at Lepanto in 1571 and Vienna in 1683. This power of her intercession is a gift God permits, for Mary can do nothing unless He permits it. But if He permits her intercession to be particularly powerful for our problems (as He did at Cana in John 2), who are we to question God's ways? And who are we to reject this path He has provided for us? We can debate Scripture all day long but in the end, it is about real experiences of God in our lives that serve to truly deepen our faith, even convert us. And in so many instances over the past 2000 years, God has chosen to work through Mary. In 1531 God converted some 9,000,000 Aztec Indians in Mexico to His truth through her. Now that's some powerful intercession! Pray to her. The Lord listens to her prayers and responds in power. Again, He gave us that example at Cana if you seek a Scriptural example. But watch what happens not only in those for whom you are praying to her but also within yourself and your interactions with immediate family members and co-workers. She will bring Christ, Who is our peace (Eph. 2:14), into your relationships in a new way. You will notice this. This is not some "lucky charm" or "magical" kind of a thing - the power of her intercession is a spiritual reality permitted by God. It can and has been experienced in a real and living way by millions and millions of people all over the world. Persevere in prayer and remember - humility, humility, humility in your prayer; she is a sacred vessel, not some clay pot.
And this why I am so passionate about the reality of her intercession: It was through the Blessed Mother that I was brought back to Jesus from the brink of hell 5 years ago - I was wrapped up in materialism and all the trappings of the world and I was miserable but didn't really know it. On the outside my life looked perfect in every way - great education, great job, great salary, great house, great car, great husband, great kids - my life was "great" by the world's standards. But then the Lord broke into my life through Mary (and her Rosary) and removed the scales from my eyes. It happened so subtley that I didn't really understand what was happening at first. As the Lord began to open my stoney heart through her, every single thing in my life got better, first and foremost my marraige and my relationship with my children. Yes, Jesus changed me, but it started through Mary. Satan holds no power over me anymore regarding material things or fleshy temptations. Through Mary, the Immaculate Conception's intercession, Jesus freed me from that 20-year yoke. Mary is still cooperating with her Son in Heaven. She's active, and Our Lord wants us to call upon her help. He, afterall, called upon her help Himself when He sent Gabriel to ask her if she would be His Mother. He could have come into the world any way He wanted --- but He chose to come through a woman - THE Woman, Mary --- and He "asked" for her help. He allowed her to exercise the gift of her free will. And she chose for God, surrendering her entire life in love to and for Him. And the rest, as they say, is history. Maybe we should follow God's Own example and ask for her help too.
Happy Feast of the Queenship of Mary! (Aug. 22)
8.22.2012 | 8:18am
harry says:
Oops. Where I said in my previous post:
"We don't know what they were taught through oral preaching. We don't have all the epistles written to them."
I should have said:
"We don't know from the Scriptures what they were taught through oral preaching. The Scriptures don't contain all the epistles written to them."
We can know the truth conveyed by that oral preaching and those epistles because, as Christ promised, the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever, His presence within it is what makes "the Church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth."
"We don't know what they were taught through oral preaching. We don't have all the epistles written to them."
I should have said:
"We don't know from the Scriptures what they were taught through oral preaching. The Scriptures don't contain all the epistles written to them."
We can know the truth conveyed by that oral preaching and those epistles because, as Christ promised, the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever, His presence within it is what makes "the Church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth."
8.22.2012 | 9:22am
Dean from Ohio says:
@mjoe - John 1:14 describes Jesus as follows:
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
No doubt Jesus learned a great deal of how God's grace is shown from his mother Mary, whom God used in a holy way to give him flesh. For that she is to be honored.
My point is that Scripture does not give us a heavenly mother and father, but Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit, to comfort and encourage us. Look at these examples old and new:
"The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.
He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust." Psalm 103:9-14 NIV84
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.' Hebrews 4:14-16 NIV84
"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.... I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [But] when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." John 15:5-7, 12-13 KJV
By focusing on Mary, you are missing out on a gift of immeasurable value: direct participation in the life of the Trinity--God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Don't be content staying in the outer courts; your birthright as a result of Jesus' death and resurrection is to go all the way into the throne room of God where every need of yours will be met in fullest measure.
As all Scripture explains, especially the book of Hebrews, let your greatest desire to grow in Christ and reach your full stature in faith. Let Jesus become the center of everything you are, the focus of your affections and your petitions. That is the path of greatest blessing by God, most complete deliverance from sin (what started this conversation in the first place) and effectiveness for God.
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
No doubt Jesus learned a great deal of how God's grace is shown from his mother Mary, whom God used in a holy way to give him flesh. For that she is to be honored.
My point is that Scripture does not give us a heavenly mother and father, but Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit, to comfort and encourage us. Look at these examples old and new:
"The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.
He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust." Psalm 103:9-14 NIV84
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.' Hebrews 4:14-16 NIV84
"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.... I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [But] when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." John 15:5-7, 12-13 KJV
By focusing on Mary, you are missing out on a gift of immeasurable value: direct participation in the life of the Trinity--God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Don't be content staying in the outer courts; your birthright as a result of Jesus' death and resurrection is to go all the way into the throne room of God where every need of yours will be met in fullest measure.
As all Scripture explains, especially the book of Hebrews, let your greatest desire to grow in Christ and reach your full stature in faith. Let Jesus become the center of everything you are, the focus of your affections and your petitions. That is the path of greatest blessing by God, most complete deliverance from sin (what started this conversation in the first place) and effectiveness for God.
8.22.2012 | 2:08pm
Dean from Ohio says:
harry, vero, Don Roberto, thanks for your comments. I certainly understand better the Catholic position, both formally and its informal practical effects, through what you've written.
harry, as I see it, it really comes down to the relative authority between the written Word of God and the traditions and other extra-Biblical teachings. The most authoritative guidance I find in the Word is still this, from Matt 15:1-9 (NIV84):
"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!' Jesus replied, 'And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, "Honor your father and mother" and "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God," he is not to "honor his father" with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." ' "
I'm not lumping Catholics in with this quoted condemnation of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, only trying to find the closest parallel possible to the situation in which we find ourselves. My "takeaway" is the principle that when push came to shove and there was conflict between the written Word and tradition, Jesus chose the written Word every time.
You've said, well, the promise of the Holy Spirit and the birth of the Church makes it different now. Different in many ways, yes, but I still don't see that the primacy of the Word of God over tradition has changed since Jesus made determinations such as what I've quoted above. The Holy Spirit was still a necessary part of OT prophecy and scripture writing even then, and God still worked through the nation of Israel and the kings and priests (urim and thummim, anyone?) as well as the prophets. But I can't recall a single example in Scripture, with Jesus or anyone else, where tradition overruled the written Word.
You've also said that the Catholic church with its current apostle(s) (in function if not in name) is the only entity empowered or allowed to make final interpretation of Scripture. Again, I would point to examples of Jesus and the apostles rebuking and/or correcting the religious authorities of their day and even one apostle to another, all pointing to Scripture, or revelation that became Scripture, as the final authority over everyone and everything, not because they were the ones entitled to interpret it, but because of its plain meaning and application to everyone.
I do so appreciate your participation in this discussion of Mary that R. R. Reno started by sharing his love for and benefit by the Marian doctrines. I still, however, find my own position in this best described by these explicit declarations of Jesus:
"Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, 'He is out of his mind.' ...Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.' 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.' " Mark 3:19-20, 31-34 (NIV84)
"Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.' He replied, 'My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.' " (Luke 8:19-21)
Of course his mother and brothers still remained his mother and brothers, and he loved them and honored his mother, but he was pointing to the core cable that now connects each of us directly to God through himself--humble and persistent learning of, and obedience to, God's will revealed by God's word, something within the reach of everyone who hungers and thirsts for God (Isaiah 55). When something conflicts with that, even the closest family member--even Mary herself--must take second place.
And that, as I see it, is the only way to the victory over sin that was the original topic of this thread.
May God's guidance and comfort be with us all.
harry, as I see it, it really comes down to the relative authority between the written Word of God and the traditions and other extra-Biblical teachings. The most authoritative guidance I find in the Word is still this, from Matt 15:1-9 (NIV84):
"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!' Jesus replied, 'And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, "Honor your father and mother" and "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God," he is not to "honor his father" with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." ' "
I'm not lumping Catholics in with this quoted condemnation of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, only trying to find the closest parallel possible to the situation in which we find ourselves. My "takeaway" is the principle that when push came to shove and there was conflict between the written Word and tradition, Jesus chose the written Word every time.
You've said, well, the promise of the Holy Spirit and the birth of the Church makes it different now. Different in many ways, yes, but I still don't see that the primacy of the Word of God over tradition has changed since Jesus made determinations such as what I've quoted above. The Holy Spirit was still a necessary part of OT prophecy and scripture writing even then, and God still worked through the nation of Israel and the kings and priests (urim and thummim, anyone?) as well as the prophets. But I can't recall a single example in Scripture, with Jesus or anyone else, where tradition overruled the written Word.
You've also said that the Catholic church with its current apostle(s) (in function if not in name) is the only entity empowered or allowed to make final interpretation of Scripture. Again, I would point to examples of Jesus and the apostles rebuking and/or correcting the religious authorities of their day and even one apostle to another, all pointing to Scripture, or revelation that became Scripture, as the final authority over everyone and everything, not because they were the ones entitled to interpret it, but because of its plain meaning and application to everyone.
I do so appreciate your participation in this discussion of Mary that R. R. Reno started by sharing his love for and benefit by the Marian doctrines. I still, however, find my own position in this best described by these explicit declarations of Jesus:
"Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, 'He is out of his mind.' ...Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.' 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.' " Mark 3:19-20, 31-34 (NIV84)
"Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.' He replied, 'My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.' " (Luke 8:19-21)
Of course his mother and brothers still remained his mother and brothers, and he loved them and honored his mother, but he was pointing to the core cable that now connects each of us directly to God through himself--humble and persistent learning of, and obedience to, God's will revealed by God's word, something within the reach of everyone who hungers and thirsts for God (Isaiah 55). When something conflicts with that, even the closest family member--even Mary herself--must take second place.
And that, as I see it, is the only way to the victory over sin that was the original topic of this thread.
May God's guidance and comfort be with us all.
8.22.2012 | 2:34pm
Gil says:
Dean from Ohio:
“My 'takeaway' is the principle that when push came to shove and there was conflict between the written Word and tradition, Jesus chose the written Word every time."
"You have heard it said”...’an eye for an eye’ and ‘marriage’ to name two.
Catholics basically argue that the Authority of Scripture, Sacraments and Office are not separate entities, but constitute a Trinitarian way called Christ, that it was Christ who instituted the Sacraments and Office (Peter and the apostolic tradition). None of what you find in Catholic Tradition and the sacramental life is not in harmony with the life of Christ, for it all comes from Christ himself.
“My 'takeaway' is the principle that when push came to shove and there was conflict between the written Word and tradition, Jesus chose the written Word every time."
"You have heard it said”...’an eye for an eye’ and ‘marriage’ to name two.
Catholics basically argue that the Authority of Scripture, Sacraments and Office are not separate entities, but constitute a Trinitarian way called Christ, that it was Christ who instituted the Sacraments and Office (Peter and the apostolic tradition). None of what you find in Catholic Tradition and the sacramental life is not in harmony with the life of Christ, for it all comes from Christ himself.
8.22.2012 | 3:19pm
Gil says:
Dean from Ohio:
Also, when you write, "When something conflicts with that ["the core cable that now connects each of us directly to God through himself"], even the closest family member—even Mary herself—must take second place.
One of the reasons Catholics venerate Mary is that she alone was never in conflict with her direct connection to God: she is an example of the obedience you rightly claim liberates us in Christ. Paul insisted that we do as you say we do and that we can do it by imitating Christ. But he then adds that if for any reason you are not able to do this, then imitate him, for he imitates Christ. Mary's first place is being the Mother of God without sin. Many Christians rightly trust in preachers from many Christian denominations who comment on the words found in Scripture, sometimes being in disagreement (how are we to know with exactitude?). There is in fact a tradition built up around this phenomenon. Should we throw this tradition out and instead read our Bible in private with a direct connect with Our Lord? And because of Satan’s and our own wily ways, how can we be certain of this direct connect? Even saints were tempted with false lights (John of the Cross instructed to never trust what might be an imagined pure presence of Christ independent of what Christ gifted us in Scripture, office and sacraments. This is why the Catholic saints down through the centuries, although disagreeing on theological points and interpretations of doctrine, never separated themselves from Scripture, office and sacraments as a Trinitarian phenomenon.
For me the key is the Last Supper where Jesus institutes the bread and wine as his body and blood. He wants us to share in all things that are his, including his body and blood. I don't see why he would create an apostolic tradition if he didn't in fact know it was essential in the triadic aspects of Scripture, office and sacrament that focus on the gestalt that is Christ. In other words, I don’t see how it is possible for us to come into the fullness of Christ without the gift of the Church that he has given us in all its aspects.
Hans Urs von Balthasar writes in "A Short Primer": "In order to see the interpenetration of these three aspects, one merely has to observe that the office is known and understood just as strictly in the commission and service of Christ as Scripture testifies to this commission (in accordance with Christ's own attitude of service) and as the central sacraments—the Eucharist and absolution from sin that separates from the Church—are depicted as entrusted to the office. Only in the commission of Christ can a man meaningfully say the words, 'This is my Body' and 'I absolve you'. The office must thus itself be a sacrament received from Christ of those commissioned by him. Nobody can claim that authority on his own, not even the community as such; authority, as Scripture attests, can be possessed, administered and passed on only as a gift. Scripture, office and sacrament all point beyond themselves to their institution by the original and permanent giver, Jesus Christ, who himself exercised his authority and power only in humble service to the Father's will.”
Also, when you write, "When something conflicts with that ["the core cable that now connects each of us directly to God through himself"], even the closest family member—even Mary herself—must take second place.
One of the reasons Catholics venerate Mary is that she alone was never in conflict with her direct connection to God: she is an example of the obedience you rightly claim liberates us in Christ. Paul insisted that we do as you say we do and that we can do it by imitating Christ. But he then adds that if for any reason you are not able to do this, then imitate him, for he imitates Christ. Mary's first place is being the Mother of God without sin. Many Christians rightly trust in preachers from many Christian denominations who comment on the words found in Scripture, sometimes being in disagreement (how are we to know with exactitude?). There is in fact a tradition built up around this phenomenon. Should we throw this tradition out and instead read our Bible in private with a direct connect with Our Lord? And because of Satan’s and our own wily ways, how can we be certain of this direct connect? Even saints were tempted with false lights (John of the Cross instructed to never trust what might be an imagined pure presence of Christ independent of what Christ gifted us in Scripture, office and sacraments. This is why the Catholic saints down through the centuries, although disagreeing on theological points and interpretations of doctrine, never separated themselves from Scripture, office and sacraments as a Trinitarian phenomenon.
For me the key is the Last Supper where Jesus institutes the bread and wine as his body and blood. He wants us to share in all things that are his, including his body and blood. I don't see why he would create an apostolic tradition if he didn't in fact know it was essential in the triadic aspects of Scripture, office and sacrament that focus on the gestalt that is Christ. In other words, I don’t see how it is possible for us to come into the fullness of Christ without the gift of the Church that he has given us in all its aspects.
Hans Urs von Balthasar writes in "A Short Primer": "In order to see the interpenetration of these three aspects, one merely has to observe that the office is known and understood just as strictly in the commission and service of Christ as Scripture testifies to this commission (in accordance with Christ's own attitude of service) and as the central sacraments—the Eucharist and absolution from sin that separates from the Church—are depicted as entrusted to the office. Only in the commission of Christ can a man meaningfully say the words, 'This is my Body' and 'I absolve you'. The office must thus itself be a sacrament received from Christ of those commissioned by him. Nobody can claim that authority on his own, not even the community as such; authority, as Scripture attests, can be possessed, administered and passed on only as a gift. Scripture, office and sacrament all point beyond themselves to their institution by the original and permanent giver, Jesus Christ, who himself exercised his authority and power only in humble service to the Father's will.”
8.22.2012 | 3:33pm
Gil says:
Dean from Ohio,
One last point: "My point is that Scripture does not give us a heavenly mother..."
So when Jesus says from the Cross “There is your mother", did he mean only the length of time Mary remained on the earth?
One last point: "My point is that Scripture does not give us a heavenly mother..."
So when Jesus says from the Cross “There is your mother", did he mean only the length of time Mary remained on the earth?
8.22.2012 | 4:06pm
harry says:
Hi, Dean,
There is a huge difference between the traditions of men and the beliefs and practices preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit that become what Catholics call "tradition." You are confusing the traditions of men with that which is nothing less than the work of the Holy Spirit.
St. Paul speaks of these traditional beliefs but does not list them in his epistles as I pointed out. What were they? By what mechanism were they passed on before the Catholic Church established the official list of writings that made up the New Testament? That list didn't get finalized until after Christianity had already converted most of the known world. How did they do that based on Scripture alone when they weren't sure what writings were Scripture? The Church that decided what was Scripture and what wasn't must also be the final authority on the interpretation of Scripture. Why? Because that decision was the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church, as is the proper interpretation of Scripture.
The simple historical fact is that the test of orthodoxy in the Early Church was the connection of a given theological proposition to one of the apostolic churches as opposed to its orthodoxy being tested by each Christian based on their own interpretation of Scripture.
There is a huge difference between the traditions of men and the beliefs and practices preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit that become what Catholics call "tradition." You are confusing the traditions of men with that which is nothing less than the work of the Holy Spirit.
St. Paul speaks of these traditional beliefs but does not list them in his epistles as I pointed out. What were they? By what mechanism were they passed on before the Catholic Church established the official list of writings that made up the New Testament? That list didn't get finalized until after Christianity had already converted most of the known world. How did they do that based on Scripture alone when they weren't sure what writings were Scripture? The Church that decided what was Scripture and what wasn't must also be the final authority on the interpretation of Scripture. Why? Because that decision was the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church, as is the proper interpretation of Scripture.
The simple historical fact is that the test of orthodoxy in the Early Church was the connection of a given theological proposition to one of the apostolic churches as opposed to its orthodoxy being tested by each Christian based on their own interpretation of Scripture.
8.22.2012 | 6:13pm
Christine Calabrese says:
As a convert to Catholicism from the Protestant faith, (I have been in the following denominations: Methodist, Congregational, Baptist, Assembly of God, Nazerene, Independent....etc.) I had much anti-Catholic teaching thrown my way. However, in seeking the Lord through prayer and fasting, in wanting to know Him, I have found that there is simply nothing short of miraculous as The Holy Catholic Church. Our Lady has seen me through many, many trials. I pray her Most Holy Rosary as often as I can, (daily...) and that's not all, there are so many, many beautiful prayers to pray in this wonderful church. It is the richest faith I have ever encountered and I am blessed that the Lord led me to it. I love Our Lady she is the Mother of our beloved Lord Jesus and the Church. Just as I love the mother of my husband for raising such a wonderful man, all the MORE, do I love Our Lady for giving us all this most wonderful gift, His NAME IS JESUS! Amen
8.22.2012 | 6:52pm
Dean from Ohio says:
Gil - "So when Jesus says from the Cross 'There is your mother', did he mean only the length of time Mary remained on the earth?"
I don't see anything else in Scripture to indicate otherwise. The focus of the NT is on our union with the Trinity through Jesus Christ. Period.
"an eye for an eye" and the "certificate of divorce" - good counterpoint, but Jesus was highlighting their hardened hearts, as he did with the woman caught in adultery in John 8. He was also laying out the constitution for his kingdom, which was simultaneously more demanding and yet, through his death and resurrection, more filled with grace and the power of the Holy Spirit than anything that had come before. He was countering a perversion of obedience to the Word of God caused by their hardened and selfish hearts.
harry - I feel like the kid who has to be the one to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
If the Catholic church stuck to interpreting the few hard points of Scripture, and didn't spend such a great deal of time throughout its history asserting entirely new doctrines under the mantle of interpretation, doctrines that are nowhere in Scripture and are at obvious variance with a plain reading of Scripture, I think I would have no problem with what you're saying. But it didn't.
As Martin Luther began pointing out centuries ago, something very large has obviously gone wrong with this function in the Catholic church. Viewed through the simple lens of a plain reading of Scripture, the emperor is wearing less than a full set of clothes, so to speak, but Catholics can't or won't see it. Past examples of the consequences of the Jewish authorities' divergence from Scripture are brushed aside.
The further the Catholic magisterium diverges from what is plainly in Scripture, the more obvious it becomes to everyone else, and the more of an issue of conscience it becomes for a sincere believer--will I obey the word of God, or will I obey the Catholic church? I can't ignore this divide. Simply saying that these new doctrines that diverge from Scripture are implicit is not enough.
In addition, the Bible speaks about itself that "All scripture is God-breathed" and that as the writers wrote, they were "carried along by the Holy Spirit." This phenomenon continuing into the church age seems to be the most obvious fulfillment of John 14-16, along with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit as the believer, some of whom are also pastors and teachers, receives the Scripture. Nowhere do I read that the other works of the church have this level of authority or were so specifically superintended by God.
I don't see anything else in Scripture to indicate otherwise. The focus of the NT is on our union with the Trinity through Jesus Christ. Period.
"an eye for an eye" and the "certificate of divorce" - good counterpoint, but Jesus was highlighting their hardened hearts, as he did with the woman caught in adultery in John 8. He was also laying out the constitution for his kingdom, which was simultaneously more demanding and yet, through his death and resurrection, more filled with grace and the power of the Holy Spirit than anything that had come before. He was countering a perversion of obedience to the Word of God caused by their hardened and selfish hearts.
harry - I feel like the kid who has to be the one to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
If the Catholic church stuck to interpreting the few hard points of Scripture, and didn't spend such a great deal of time throughout its history asserting entirely new doctrines under the mantle of interpretation, doctrines that are nowhere in Scripture and are at obvious variance with a plain reading of Scripture, I think I would have no problem with what you're saying. But it didn't.
As Martin Luther began pointing out centuries ago, something very large has obviously gone wrong with this function in the Catholic church. Viewed through the simple lens of a plain reading of Scripture, the emperor is wearing less than a full set of clothes, so to speak, but Catholics can't or won't see it. Past examples of the consequences of the Jewish authorities' divergence from Scripture are brushed aside.
The further the Catholic magisterium diverges from what is plainly in Scripture, the more obvious it becomes to everyone else, and the more of an issue of conscience it becomes for a sincere believer--will I obey the word of God, or will I obey the Catholic church? I can't ignore this divide. Simply saying that these new doctrines that diverge from Scripture are implicit is not enough.
In addition, the Bible speaks about itself that "All scripture is God-breathed" and that as the writers wrote, they were "carried along by the Holy Spirit." This phenomenon continuing into the church age seems to be the most obvious fulfillment of John 14-16, along with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit as the believer, some of whom are also pastors and teachers, receives the Scripture. Nowhere do I read that the other works of the church have this level of authority or were so specifically superintended by God.
8.22.2012 | 6:59pm
Dean from Ohio says:
harry - it would be great if the Catholic church's magisterium hadn't diverged so far from Scripture. We could just follow it, and we would not be divided. But we don't always get the choices we want.
It's a choice no one should ever have to make -- obey the Catholic church or obey the plain reading of Scripture. For me, the choice is clear. All the exhortations, examples and rewards in Scripture point to obeying God's will as explained in his Word. I can't do anything else.
It's a choice no one should ever have to make -- obey the Catholic church or obey the plain reading of Scripture. For me, the choice is clear. All the exhortations, examples and rewards in Scripture point to obeying God's will as explained in his Word. I can't do anything else.
8.22.2012 | 10:57pm
Rose Marie says:
Mary is daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son and Spouse of the Holy Spirit. She was created perfect and to admire her is to glorify the Trinity. It take a great deal of pride to tell God that Mary is really nothing special. Trying telling any great artist that his masterpiece is just another piece of art...don't think so. There are those who can ignore Mary but she is still looking out for them and recommending their needs to Her Father, Son and Spouse.
8.23.2012 | 2:46am
Craig Roberts says:
"As Martin Luther began pointing out centuries ago, something very large has obviously gone wrong with this function in the Catholic church. "
"Luther was wrong in several areas, such as anti-Semitism; his view of Mary, which I haven't studied, could be one of them."
Perhaps a better guide could be found...hmmm?
"Luther was wrong in several areas, such as anti-Semitism; his view of Mary, which I haven't studied, could be one of them."
Perhaps a better guide could be found...hmmm?
8.23.2012 | 9:11am
Dean from Ohio says:
Rose Marie - Got Scripture?
Here is one that you may have missed that puts God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and Jesus' mother Mary in their rightful biblical places, as well as giving insight into the world of the demonic, from Luke 11:
"One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.'
"He said to them, 'When you pray, say:
"Father, hallowed be your name,your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation." ' ...
" 'Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!' " ...
" 'When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, "I will return to the house I left." When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.' "
"As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.'
"He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.' " (Luke 11:1-4, 11-13, 24-28)
I don't know about you, but I want to share the life of the Trinity directly, and avoid the traps of the devil, by hearing the Word of God and obeying it, thus receiving this greater blessing from Jesus than any that Mary could or can bestow.
Jesus continues with words that the Catholic magisterium would do well to heed:
" ' Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.' " (Luke 11:52 NIV84 as above)
Distracting a believer mired in the struggle against sin with extra-Biblical and non-Biblical assertions about Mary's sinlessness while he should instead be camping out in Romans and Galatians and Ephesians is a great example of this.
The key to knowledge is not Mary, but Christ in me, the hope of glory, who brings me into the heart of the Trinity along with him, to share daily and directly the life of Jesus with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Catholics would teach that if I behave well, I can someday achieve that, with the help of God and Mary. The truth rather is that my position in the midst of the Trinity already IS the reality for me and every other believer in Christ from the moment we believe, and our lives change when we understand what has already happened.
Here is one that you may have missed that puts God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and Jesus' mother Mary in their rightful biblical places, as well as giving insight into the world of the demonic, from Luke 11:
"One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.'
"He said to them, 'When you pray, say:
"Father, hallowed be your name,your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation." ' ...
" 'Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!' " ...
" 'When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, "I will return to the house I left." When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.' "
"As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.'
"He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.' " (Luke 11:1-4, 11-13, 24-28)
I don't know about you, but I want to share the life of the Trinity directly, and avoid the traps of the devil, by hearing the Word of God and obeying it, thus receiving this greater blessing from Jesus than any that Mary could or can bestow.
Jesus continues with words that the Catholic magisterium would do well to heed:
" ' Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.' " (Luke 11:52 NIV84 as above)
Distracting a believer mired in the struggle against sin with extra-Biblical and non-Biblical assertions about Mary's sinlessness while he should instead be camping out in Romans and Galatians and Ephesians is a great example of this.
The key to knowledge is not Mary, but Christ in me, the hope of glory, who brings me into the heart of the Trinity along with him, to share daily and directly the life of Jesus with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Catholics would teach that if I behave well, I can someday achieve that, with the help of God and Mary. The truth rather is that my position in the midst of the Trinity already IS the reality for me and every other believer in Christ from the moment we believe, and our lives change when we understand what has already happened.
8.23.2012 | 9:52am
Dean from Ohio says:
To those striving in their own strength to overcome sin and achieve salvation (as if that were possible), and losing the fight, here are words of unbelievable encouragement:
"At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
" 'All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
" 'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.' " (Matt 11:25-30 NIV84)
These words changed my life. When I let this Scripture sink into my soul, with the help of a wise counselor, I discovered that my sole responsibility in life is to walk in step with Jesus, and to join him in pulling the load he is pulling by doing what he has for me to do that day--no more and no less--and he is alongside to help. His yoke (the word used to describe the teaching of a Rabbi) truly is kind (the meaning of the word translated "easy"), and alongside him, his burden is light.
"At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
" 'All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
" 'Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.' " (Matt 11:25-30 NIV84)
These words changed my life. When I let this Scripture sink into my soul, with the help of a wise counselor, I discovered that my sole responsibility in life is to walk in step with Jesus, and to join him in pulling the load he is pulling by doing what he has for me to do that day--no more and no less--and he is alongside to help. His yoke (the word used to describe the teaching of a Rabbi) truly is kind (the meaning of the word translated "easy"), and alongside him, his burden is light.
8.23.2012 | 10:54am
Dean from Ohio says:
@Craig Roberts: =:-)
"We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check." - James 3:2
"We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check." - James 3:2
8.23.2012 | 12:37pm
harry says:
Doctrines matter. Knowing true doctrines from false doctrines is important. True doctrines don't contradict each other and have their origin in the first centuries of Christianity, or the seeds from which they developed did. There is such a thing as development of dogma. Christ promised the Apostles the Holy Spirit would **LEAD** them to the truth -- so we should expect some development of dogma. So, as the saying goes, "If it's true, it isn't new. If it's new, it isn't true." Where there has been development of dogma, the seeds from which that dogma grew were there from the beginning. That which isn't development of dogma, but contradicts traditional dogma instead, is false.
As St. Vincent of Lerins, a monk of the early 5th century pointed out, there are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are people who read it, and every great heresy has been based on the Scriptures (a misinterpretation of it). St. Vincent insisted that to avoid falling into error it was necessary to look to the traditional belief of the Church when interpreting the Scriptures. St. Vincent's thought is part of the heritage of ALL Christians, his having lived long before the Body of Christ was splintered into thousands of sects as it is today, due to the approach to Scripture and Authority Dean so eloquently but mistakenly promotes.
If Christ kept His promise that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever and lead it to the truth, then we should expect to find a consistency in Biblical interpretation that has been there from the beginning. We DO find that because Christ, of course, kept His promise. Where a new interpretation contradicts areas where the Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture (that unanimity was the promised work of the Holy Spirit) it is wrong. If it isn't wrong, then Christ didn't keep His promises to the Church. If we really believe in Jesus we believe He keeps His promises. St. Vincent put it this way:
>
As one can see from Vincent's list of the names of the authors of the heresies the Church had already worked its way through by the early 5th century (all of those heresies were based on a private interpretation of Scripture) some guidelines were necessary so orthodoxy could be distinguished from heterodoxy. Vincent also makes clear that there has to be a final authority on the interpretation of Scripture, which was, of course, the Church founded by Christ, the one to which He made this promise, "He who hears you, Hears me."
The writings of the Early Church Fathers make clear that Marian dogma, where not explicit and fully developed, existed in some not yet fully developed form from the first centuries of Christianity, as does evidence of Christian love of Mary and devotion to her in the archaeological remains of the catacombs. Today we know that the New Testament understanding of Mary was indeed, to use Augustine's words, "hidden in the Old" all the while and is unveiled by deeper understanding of the Scriptures.
As St. Vincent of Lerins, a monk of the early 5th century pointed out, there are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are people who read it, and every great heresy has been based on the Scriptures (a misinterpretation of it). St. Vincent insisted that to avoid falling into error it was necessary to look to the traditional belief of the Church when interpreting the Scriptures. St. Vincent's thought is part of the heritage of ALL Christians, his having lived long before the Body of Christ was splintered into thousands of sects as it is today, due to the approach to Scripture and Authority Dean so eloquently but mistakenly promotes.
If Christ kept His promise that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever and lead it to the truth, then we should expect to find a consistency in Biblical interpretation that has been there from the beginning. We DO find that because Christ, of course, kept His promise. Where a new interpretation contradicts areas where the Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture (that unanimity was the promised work of the Holy Spirit) it is wrong. If it isn't wrong, then Christ didn't keep His promises to the Church. If we really believe in Jesus we believe He keeps His promises. St. Vincent put it this way:
>
As one can see from Vincent's list of the names of the authors of the heresies the Church had already worked its way through by the early 5th century (all of those heresies were based on a private interpretation of Scripture) some guidelines were necessary so orthodoxy could be distinguished from heterodoxy. Vincent also makes clear that there has to be a final authority on the interpretation of Scripture, which was, of course, the Church founded by Christ, the one to which He made this promise, "He who hears you, Hears me."
The writings of the Early Church Fathers make clear that Marian dogma, where not explicit and fully developed, existed in some not yet fully developed form from the first centuries of Christianity, as does evidence of Christian love of Mary and devotion to her in the archaeological remains of the catacombs. Today we know that the New Testament understanding of Mary was indeed, to use Augustine's words, "hidden in the Old" all the while and is unveiled by deeper understanding of the Scriptures.
8.23.2012 | 3:18pm
harry says:
Oops. Here is the quote from St. Vincent mentioned in my previous post:
"But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason—because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic [Universal] interpretation.
Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense "Catholic," which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors."
"But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason—because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic [Universal] interpretation.
Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense "Catholic," which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors."
8.23.2012 | 5:20pm
Dean from Ohio says:
harry, thanks for the comment; I hope you can try again to post at least part of your list of heresies.
There are more promises applicable here than just the one where Jesus promises to guide the apostles into all truth. There are also the promises that there will be false doctrines even within the church. Some of the seven churches in Revelation succumbed to false doctrines and none are with us at this point.
Your argument seems to be begging the question--namely that since heresy in the Catholic church cannot occur, it did not occur. You also don't seem to address the role of repentance in the timeline of the development of doctrine, that where a church accepts a false doctrine and repents, its doctrine changes and the dogma/doctrine that is now recognized to be false is thrown out. If the church can never succumb to false doctrine because of God's promise to guide it into all truth, then how could several of the churches in Revelation 2 - 3 embrace false doctrine in the first place? That Christ tells them to repent is evidence that they did.
Indeed, the advocates of the reformation argued that its doctrine was the oldest of all--that written in the Word of God, and that the false doctrines adopted later by the Catholic church need to be discarded in an act of repentance. Furthermore, if the church can never succumb to false doctrine because of God's promise to guide it into all truth, then how could several of the churches in Revelation 2 - 3 embrace false doctrine in the first place? That Christ tells them to repent is evidence that they embrace it; that those churches are no longer with us is at least partial evidence that they did not repent.
I think you need a safety valve in your system; it seems that there is no way for false doctrines to get out of the Catholic church without it exploding and taking down the whole structure, since false doctrines are defined out of existence. As a system designer, I see warning signs. In another metaphor, it seems the Catholic church's immunity response is being suppressed.
BTW, Protestants would have a much easier time honoring Mary if the Catholic church had not piled one more title and role on top of another. As it is, they don't want to get involved for fear that they will be viewed as accepting all of it. No doubt she had a sterling reputation for compassion and good works that endured by being handed down from one person to another, like Mother Teresa but more so. There are two ditches on the sides of this road--not recognizing her good works on one side, and padding her resume on the other.
There are more promises applicable here than just the one where Jesus promises to guide the apostles into all truth. There are also the promises that there will be false doctrines even within the church. Some of the seven churches in Revelation succumbed to false doctrines and none are with us at this point.
Your argument seems to be begging the question--namely that since heresy in the Catholic church cannot occur, it did not occur. You also don't seem to address the role of repentance in the timeline of the development of doctrine, that where a church accepts a false doctrine and repents, its doctrine changes and the dogma/doctrine that is now recognized to be false is thrown out. If the church can never succumb to false doctrine because of God's promise to guide it into all truth, then how could several of the churches in Revelation 2 - 3 embrace false doctrine in the first place? That Christ tells them to repent is evidence that they did.
Indeed, the advocates of the reformation argued that its doctrine was the oldest of all--that written in the Word of God, and that the false doctrines adopted later by the Catholic church need to be discarded in an act of repentance. Furthermore, if the church can never succumb to false doctrine because of God's promise to guide it into all truth, then how could several of the churches in Revelation 2 - 3 embrace false doctrine in the first place? That Christ tells them to repent is evidence that they embrace it; that those churches are no longer with us is at least partial evidence that they did not repent.
I think you need a safety valve in your system; it seems that there is no way for false doctrines to get out of the Catholic church without it exploding and taking down the whole structure, since false doctrines are defined out of existence. As a system designer, I see warning signs. In another metaphor, it seems the Catholic church's immunity response is being suppressed.
BTW, Protestants would have a much easier time honoring Mary if the Catholic church had not piled one more title and role on top of another. As it is, they don't want to get involved for fear that they will be viewed as accepting all of it. No doubt she had a sterling reputation for compassion and good works that endured by being handed down from one person to another, like Mother Teresa but more so. There are two ditches on the sides of this road--not recognizing her good works on one side, and padding her resume on the other.
8.23.2012 | 6:54pm
harry says:
Hi, Dean,
God doesn't take away our free will when we become Christians. We are free to preach false doctrines (we may be convinced that they are true doctrines) and if we have the eloquence to do so, we can lead many others into error, all the while assuring our followers that they alone make up the TRUE church. That this is so evident from the fact that there are thousands of versions of Christianity. With that in mind, when you say, "Furthermore, if the church can never succumb to false doctrine because of God's promise to guide it into all truth, then how could several of the churches in Revelation 2 - 3 embrace false doctrine in the first place?" you aren't taking into consideration the fact that the local churches criticized in Revelation were not composed of robots without a genuinely free will. Christ never promised us there would never be false teachers. In fact, He promised the opposite, that "false Christs and false prophets" would arise and deceive many. How right he was! What Revelation does not say is that the Truth was lost. It does not say it would be lost for another 1500 yeas and then discovered again by the reformers. The apostolic teaching received from Christ was still there and was being preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. Christ promised Hell would not prevail against His Church. It hasn't. It won't. It can't. One will always be able to find the Truth in the Church founded by Christ, which He promised He would be with till the end of time, even if many fall away and lead many others astray.
God doesn't take away our free will when we become Christians. We are free to preach false doctrines (we may be convinced that they are true doctrines) and if we have the eloquence to do so, we can lead many others into error, all the while assuring our followers that they alone make up the TRUE church. That this is so evident from the fact that there are thousands of versions of Christianity. With that in mind, when you say, "Furthermore, if the church can never succumb to false doctrine because of God's promise to guide it into all truth, then how could several of the churches in Revelation 2 - 3 embrace false doctrine in the first place?" you aren't taking into consideration the fact that the local churches criticized in Revelation were not composed of robots without a genuinely free will. Christ never promised us there would never be false teachers. In fact, He promised the opposite, that "false Christs and false prophets" would arise and deceive many. How right he was! What Revelation does not say is that the Truth was lost. It does not say it would be lost for another 1500 yeas and then discovered again by the reformers. The apostolic teaching received from Christ was still there and was being preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. Christ promised Hell would not prevail against His Church. It hasn't. It won't. It can't. One will always be able to find the Truth in the Church founded by Christ, which He promised He would be with till the end of time, even if many fall away and lead many others astray.
8.23.2012 | 10:56pm
Julia says:
I don't know which church the person in one or more of the above posts belongs to who keeps repeating how he or she will stick to the Blessed Trinity to be saved. If you think Roman Catholics don't stick to the Blessed Trinity you are way wrong. We receive Jesus, truly present in Holy Eucharist as He promised at last supper. When we receive Him worthily, (reconciled through Holy Sacrament of Confession), we are receiving the Blessed Trinity; because Jesus and the Heavenly Father are one. Holy Spirit issues from Father and Son.
I am puzzled about the brothers and sisters of Jesus claims that keep popping up in the posts above. This is because in olden days neighbours and relatives were referred to as brothers and sisters or brethern. You must have heard of the Plymouth Brethern, and you can bet your life they were not all related. Use your noggin.
Lastly if Mary had not consented to conceiving Christ in her womb, we would all be trapped in satans power; because Jesus would not have been born, raised, publicly ministered, and finally subjected Himself to the horrors of Calvary where He nailed Satans lies once and for all to the wood of the cross so we can all be free to accept or reject His offer of salvation and freedom. "Repent, and be saved"
And if anyone thinks repentance does not matter, and you can be saved by faith alone. Compare St Peter to Judas Iscariot. Both denied or betrayed Christ. Peter was humble enough to repent (apologise). Judas culd not believe Jesus would forgive him. Judas pride and presumption resulted in him killing himself and being damned. While we are on the topic, what will become of these peple who demand the right to force doctors to terminate their lives, when they feel they can't cope, makes you cringe, does it not ? It reminds me of Judas Iscariot.
Luther to me was a fallen priest, yes an apostate Catholic priest; but then so was Stalin. But I have read Luther was very devoted to Mary the mother of Jesus even after his apostacy. How come the Lutherans have neglected his Marian devotion, or were there later deserters in that group who falsley shared Luthers beliefs with others. I don't know.
Catholics are encouraged to read scripture; but Jesus gave the Keys to St. Peter and his successors, and I am glad to be able to trust their judgement when it comes to interpreting scripture as society evolves and we ask more and more deeper questions. As for praying to Holy Spirit, yes of course every day. But do remember satan was the most enlightened spirit before his fall, and God did not remove the intelligence when satan was cast down, so beware of the spirit, stay humble and ask God to lead us not into temptation to pride in our reading of Holy Scripture. Let those whome Christ authorised to carry the Keys be our guide in spiritual matters.
I am puzzled about the brothers and sisters of Jesus claims that keep popping up in the posts above. This is because in olden days neighbours and relatives were referred to as brothers and sisters or brethern. You must have heard of the Plymouth Brethern, and you can bet your life they were not all related. Use your noggin.
Lastly if Mary had not consented to conceiving Christ in her womb, we would all be trapped in satans power; because Jesus would not have been born, raised, publicly ministered, and finally subjected Himself to the horrors of Calvary where He nailed Satans lies once and for all to the wood of the cross so we can all be free to accept or reject His offer of salvation and freedom. "Repent, and be saved"
And if anyone thinks repentance does not matter, and you can be saved by faith alone. Compare St Peter to Judas Iscariot. Both denied or betrayed Christ. Peter was humble enough to repent (apologise). Judas culd not believe Jesus would forgive him. Judas pride and presumption resulted in him killing himself and being damned. While we are on the topic, what will become of these peple who demand the right to force doctors to terminate their lives, when they feel they can't cope, makes you cringe, does it not ? It reminds me of Judas Iscariot.
Luther to me was a fallen priest, yes an apostate Catholic priest; but then so was Stalin. But I have read Luther was very devoted to Mary the mother of Jesus even after his apostacy. How come the Lutherans have neglected his Marian devotion, or were there later deserters in that group who falsley shared Luthers beliefs with others. I don't know.
Catholics are encouraged to read scripture; but Jesus gave the Keys to St. Peter and his successors, and I am glad to be able to trust their judgement when it comes to interpreting scripture as society evolves and we ask more and more deeper questions. As for praying to Holy Spirit, yes of course every day. But do remember satan was the most enlightened spirit before his fall, and God did not remove the intelligence when satan was cast down, so beware of the spirit, stay humble and ask God to lead us not into temptation to pride in our reading of Holy Scripture. Let those whome Christ authorised to carry the Keys be our guide in spiritual matters.
8.24.2012 | 1:43am
owie says:
If the Mother of God had piled more titles because that it should be and the last title that she has is Mother of Salvation. Mary's role is to point us to Jesus and I have never known a saint who had no devotion to the Blessed Mother. To all who dismiss her, well it's really there loss.
8.24.2012 | 8:13am
Dean from Ohio says:
harry - thanks again for your comment; I appreciate our discussion very much.
Julia - My church denomination is in the evangelical Protestant tradition (as distinguished from mainline Protestant). BTW, I'm using the term "brothers" only in direct quotation from Scripture. If it jars with your understanding, perhaps you should read those sections of Scripture again.Scripture has a way of penetrating our thoughts with the truth. In any case, I didn't amplify on that at all in this thread. Also, if Mary did not consent, God would have found someone else to fulfill his promises (as in Mordecai's comment to Esther). But of course, he chose perfectly and the rest is history.
Julia - My church denomination is in the evangelical Protestant tradition (as distinguished from mainline Protestant). BTW, I'm using the term "brothers" only in direct quotation from Scripture. If it jars with your understanding, perhaps you should read those sections of Scripture again.Scripture has a way of penetrating our thoughts with the truth. In any case, I didn't amplify on that at all in this thread. Also, if Mary did not consent, God would have found someone else to fulfill his promises (as in Mordecai's comment to Esther). But of course, he chose perfectly and the rest is history.
8.24.2012 | 2:58pm
Gil says:
Beginning with the first great schism of the 11th century and the subsequent ongoing fracturing of Christianity with the beginning of the Reformation, we now have more than 20,000 Christian denominations, all claiming they are true church. The fact is, the Christian church of sinners was able to resist division for a thousand years, but once the division began it became conflagration, a wildfire of saying no to Jesus' command to love one another in unity, that that is the only way we can be known as Christians.
How can we obey Jesus’ command to be one as he is one with the Father? Every new addition of yet another “true church” promises to deliver, yet the division actually becomes that more entrenched.
Every new denomination (fracturing off) claims, and truly believes, that they have found the real Jesus in Scriptures. To me it is clear: sola scriptura fails in the end for the simple reason that Scriptures can be interpreted differently by every person, faithful or not, who walks this planet. A final authority on the interpretation of Scriptures must be established to stop this violent tearing apart of Christ’s Body, and it must come from God. The Catholic church claims this authority was given to the apostles and those the apostles appointed and whom they in turn appointed in the apostolic tradition. And even if a faithful non-Catholic Christian rejects this authority, the only possible way to unify Christians still obviously remains in an authority that can be recognized as ordained by God to have a final say in how one interprets Scriptures. And doesn’t this come close to waiting for the messiah to come once again?
How can we obey Jesus’ command to be one as he is one with the Father? Every new addition of yet another “true church” promises to deliver, yet the division actually becomes that more entrenched.
Every new denomination (fracturing off) claims, and truly believes, that they have found the real Jesus in Scriptures. To me it is clear: sola scriptura fails in the end for the simple reason that Scriptures can be interpreted differently by every person, faithful or not, who walks this planet. A final authority on the interpretation of Scriptures must be established to stop this violent tearing apart of Christ’s Body, and it must come from God. The Catholic church claims this authority was given to the apostles and those the apostles appointed and whom they in turn appointed in the apostolic tradition. And even if a faithful non-Catholic Christian rejects this authority, the only possible way to unify Christians still obviously remains in an authority that can be recognized as ordained by God to have a final say in how one interprets Scriptures. And doesn’t this come close to waiting for the messiah to come once again?
8.24.2012 | 5:11pm
Dean from Ohio says:
Julia, owie, harry, et al.,
Here is a list of 110 titles of Jesus from the Word of God:
Alpha and Omega, Amen, Anointed One, Apostle, Author and Perfecter of Faith, Author of Salvation, Beginning and the End, Beginning of the Creation of God, Beloved, Branch, Bread of God, Bread of Life, Bridegroom, Bright Morning Star, Chief Shepherd, Choice Stone, Chosen One, Christ, Cornerstone, David, Deliverer, Door, Eternal Father, Faithful and True Witness, First and the Last, Firstborn, Firstfruits, Forerunner, God, Good Shepherd, Great High Priest, Great Shepherd, Head of the Body, Heir of All hings, Holy One of God, Holy Servant, Hope, I AM, Image of God, Immanuel, Jesus, Judge, King, King of Israel, King of Kings, King of the Jews, Lamb of God, Last Adam, Life, Life-Giving Spirit, Light of the World, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Living Bread, Living One, Living Stone, Lord, Lord of Glory, Lord of Lords, Lord of the Sabbath, Man, Man of Sorrows, Master, Mediator, Messiah, Mighty God, Nazarene, Overseer of Your Souls, Passover, Peace, Power of God, Precious Corner Stone, Prince, Prince of Life, Prince of Peace, Prophet, Rabbi, Rabboni, Radiance of God’s Glory, Ransom, Resurrection, Righteous Judge, Righteous One, Rock, Rock of Offense, Root and Offspring of David, Ruler, Ruler of the Kings of the Earth, Savior, Second Man, Seed, Servant, Shepherd, Son of David, Son of God, Son of Man, Son of the Blessed One, Son of the Father, Son of the Living God, Son of the Most High, Source of Eternal Salvation, Stone, Stone of Stumbling, Teacher, True Bread, True Light, True Vine, Truth, Way, Wisdom of God, Wonderful Counselor, Word of God, Word of Life
Here is a list of 55 titles of Mary (half of 110, interestingly) that the Catholic church and perhaps others as well have assigned to Mary (from Wikipedia):
Advocate of Eve, Blessed Mother, Blessed Virgin Mary, Cause of Our Joy, Cause of our Salvation, Comfort of the Afflicted, Co-Redemptrix, Destroyer of Heresy, Empress of the World, Favoured Daughter 0f the Father, Full of Grace, God-bearer, Help of Christians, Holy Mary, Immaculate, Immaculate Heart of Mary, Joy of the Just, Lady, Madonna, Mary, Mistress, Most Holy, Most Pure, Mother of God, Mother of Orphans, Mother of Perpetual Help, Mother of Sorrows, Mother of the Poor, Mother of the Son, Mother of the Word, Mother Thrice Admirable, Notre-Dame, Nova Eva (the New Eve), Our Lady of Confidence, Our Lady of Victory, Queen Assumed Into Heaven, Queen Conceived Without Original Sin, Queen of All Saints, Queen of Angels, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Families, Queen of Heaven, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Peace, Queen of Prophets, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, Queen of Virgins, Ravisher of Hearts, Seat of Wisdom, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, Star of the Sea, Tabernacle of the Lord, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity, Treasure House of God's Graces, Untier of Knots
This list of titles of Mary points the way to Jesus? Really? Truly? Honestly?
Respectfully, I don't think so.
Here's what pointing to Jesus looks like:
"The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
"It is written in Isaiah the prophet: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way — a voice of one calling in the desert,"Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him." '
"And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. And this was his message: 'After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.'
"At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.'
"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.
"After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God." Mark 1:1-14 (NIV84)
Titles of John the Baptist:
Baptist
Elijah
John
Voice of One Calling in the Desert
Jesus also himself said this about John, the one who pointed to him:
"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Matt 11:11 NIV84).
Interestingly, John has as much explicit "Bible time" in the Old and New Testaments as does Mary, and likely more (I haven't totaled it up). Why doesn't John get as much attention as does Mary in Catholic doctrine? Why is that?
Here is a list of 110 titles of Jesus from the Word of God:
Alpha and Omega, Amen, Anointed One, Apostle, Author and Perfecter of Faith, Author of Salvation, Beginning and the End, Beginning of the Creation of God, Beloved, Branch, Bread of God, Bread of Life, Bridegroom, Bright Morning Star, Chief Shepherd, Choice Stone, Chosen One, Christ, Cornerstone, David, Deliverer, Door, Eternal Father, Faithful and True Witness, First and the Last, Firstborn, Firstfruits, Forerunner, God, Good Shepherd, Great High Priest, Great Shepherd, Head of the Body, Heir of All hings, Holy One of God, Holy Servant, Hope, I AM, Image of God, Immanuel, Jesus, Judge, King, King of Israel, King of Kings, King of the Jews, Lamb of God, Last Adam, Life, Life-Giving Spirit, Light of the World, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Living Bread, Living One, Living Stone, Lord, Lord of Glory, Lord of Lords, Lord of the Sabbath, Man, Man of Sorrows, Master, Mediator, Messiah, Mighty God, Nazarene, Overseer of Your Souls, Passover, Peace, Power of God, Precious Corner Stone, Prince, Prince of Life, Prince of Peace, Prophet, Rabbi, Rabboni, Radiance of God’s Glory, Ransom, Resurrection, Righteous Judge, Righteous One, Rock, Rock of Offense, Root and Offspring of David, Ruler, Ruler of the Kings of the Earth, Savior, Second Man, Seed, Servant, Shepherd, Son of David, Son of God, Son of Man, Son of the Blessed One, Son of the Father, Son of the Living God, Son of the Most High, Source of Eternal Salvation, Stone, Stone of Stumbling, Teacher, True Bread, True Light, True Vine, Truth, Way, Wisdom of God, Wonderful Counselor, Word of God, Word of Life
Here is a list of 55 titles of Mary (half of 110, interestingly) that the Catholic church and perhaps others as well have assigned to Mary (from Wikipedia):
Advocate of Eve, Blessed Mother, Blessed Virgin Mary, Cause of Our Joy, Cause of our Salvation, Comfort of the Afflicted, Co-Redemptrix, Destroyer of Heresy, Empress of the World, Favoured Daughter 0f the Father, Full of Grace, God-bearer, Help of Christians, Holy Mary, Immaculate, Immaculate Heart of Mary, Joy of the Just, Lady, Madonna, Mary, Mistress, Most Holy, Most Pure, Mother of God, Mother of Orphans, Mother of Perpetual Help, Mother of Sorrows, Mother of the Poor, Mother of the Son, Mother of the Word, Mother Thrice Admirable, Notre-Dame, Nova Eva (the New Eve), Our Lady of Confidence, Our Lady of Victory, Queen Assumed Into Heaven, Queen Conceived Without Original Sin, Queen of All Saints, Queen of Angels, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Families, Queen of Heaven, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Peace, Queen of Prophets, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, Queen of Virgins, Ravisher of Hearts, Seat of Wisdom, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, Star of the Sea, Tabernacle of the Lord, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity, Treasure House of God's Graces, Untier of Knots
This list of titles of Mary points the way to Jesus? Really? Truly? Honestly?
Respectfully, I don't think so.
Here's what pointing to Jesus looks like:
"The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
"It is written in Isaiah the prophet: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way — a voice of one calling in the desert,"Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him." '
"And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. And this was his message: 'After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.'
"At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.'
"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.
"After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God." Mark 1:1-14 (NIV84)
Titles of John the Baptist:
Baptist
Elijah
John
Voice of One Calling in the Desert
Jesus also himself said this about John, the one who pointed to him:
"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Matt 11:11 NIV84).
Interestingly, John has as much explicit "Bible time" in the Old and New Testaments as does Mary, and likely more (I haven't totaled it up). Why doesn't John get as much attention as does Mary in Catholic doctrine? Why is that?
8.24.2012 | 8:03pm
Gil says:
"Why doesn't John get as much attention as does Mary in Catholic doctrine?"
Because Mary is the Mother of God.
One could also ask why Joseph gets so much attention in the Catholic church when so little is written about him. Perhaps because he more than any other man, excepting Jesus, of course, has lived the exemplary life of being perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect (I don’t think it a coincidence that many of us who venerate Joseph of the New Testament also venerate Joseph of the Old). Who else in the New Testament, other than Jesus and Mary, has uttered such a profound yes to God? The yes of Jesus, the yes of Mary and the yes of Joseph. I would call those three yeses the triadic yes of Christian faith.
Because Mary is the Mother of God.
One could also ask why Joseph gets so much attention in the Catholic church when so little is written about him. Perhaps because he more than any other man, excepting Jesus, of course, has lived the exemplary life of being perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect (I don’t think it a coincidence that many of us who venerate Joseph of the New Testament also venerate Joseph of the Old). Who else in the New Testament, other than Jesus and Mary, has uttered such a profound yes to God? The yes of Jesus, the yes of Mary and the yes of Joseph. I would call those three yeses the triadic yes of Christian faith.
8.24.2012 | 8:40pm
Dean from Ohio says:
Gil, not sure where you got your 20,000 figure. Wikipedia's list probably doesn't top 400 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members). Nonetheless, restoring unity is a Messiah-sized job, for which we pray.
As I wrote above, choosing the Catholic church, which has diverged from Scripture, or another church that is closer, is not a good choice at all and ought never to have been. But it is the only one that I can see.
If the Catholic church had stuck to interpreting the hard to understand parts of Scripture, instead of multiplying new doctrines that have no root in Scripture, perhaps we might still be one.
As I wrote above, choosing the Catholic church, which has diverged from Scripture, or another church that is closer, is not a good choice at all and ought never to have been. But it is the only one that I can see.
If the Catholic church had stuck to interpreting the hard to understand parts of Scripture, instead of multiplying new doctrines that have no root in Scripture, perhaps we might still be one.
8.24.2012 | 10:32pm
harry says:
How much explicit "Bible Time" is given to the concept of the Trinity, three distinct persons in One God? Not much. Does that make it insignificant? How did it become significant? The same way Marian doctrine became significant -- it was a work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
8.25.2012 | 12:13am
Dean from Ohio says:
@ harry - "The same way Marian doctrine became significant -- it was a work of the Holy Spirit in the Church."
@Gil - "Because Mary is the Mother of God."
Guys, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I have very much appreciated our conversation about this. It really has helped me to understand some of what the Catholic church today believes about Mary, the Scriptures, the Catholic Church and the Holy Spirit interact. Can't say as I agree, but I appreciate your time, thoughtfulness and good will.
My prayers and best wishes to you and to the other commenters here, and to Dr. Reno, who has my prayers for safety as he climbs mountains both metaphorically in the office and actually in the great outdoors.
Ut unum sint.
@Gil - "Because Mary is the Mother of God."
Guys, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I have very much appreciated our conversation about this. It really has helped me to understand some of what the Catholic church today believes about Mary, the Scriptures, the Catholic Church and the Holy Spirit interact. Can't say as I agree, but I appreciate your time, thoughtfulness and good will.
My prayers and best wishes to you and to the other commenters here, and to Dr. Reno, who has my prayers for safety as he climbs mountains both metaphorically in the office and actually in the great outdoors.
Ut unum sint.
8.25.2012 | 3:30pm
Gil says:
Dean from Ohio,
I went to a more reliable website (http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm) than the one I originally consulted and found this: "According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries, so there is overlapping of many denominations. Center for the Study of Global Christianity (2011)." And yes, I am convinced that sola scriptura is the most powerful impetus that helps sustain this spiraling disunity, a defiance of a unity that Jesus prayed for and commanded us not offend.
As far as the doctrines the Catholic church discerns and protects from Scriptures, there are many ways of reading and interpreting them, just as there are many ways of reading and interpreting Scriptures. And as with Scriptures, an authority is needed to confirm those doctrines as what Catholics view as authentic footprints of Our Lord.
None of this, of course, in any way will determine who is closest to Jesus (I truly suspect you are closer to him than I am), or who will at the end of time enter heaven first (Our Lord's words "He who is first will be last, and he who is last will be first" remains one of my perennial meditations).
God bless you, brother. And peace be with you.
I went to a more reliable website (http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm) than the one I originally consulted and found this: "According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries, so there is overlapping of many denominations. Center for the Study of Global Christianity (2011)." And yes, I am convinced that sola scriptura is the most powerful impetus that helps sustain this spiraling disunity, a defiance of a unity that Jesus prayed for and commanded us not offend.
As far as the doctrines the Catholic church discerns and protects from Scriptures, there are many ways of reading and interpreting them, just as there are many ways of reading and interpreting Scriptures. And as with Scriptures, an authority is needed to confirm those doctrines as what Catholics view as authentic footprints of Our Lord.
None of this, of course, in any way will determine who is closest to Jesus (I truly suspect you are closer to him than I am), or who will at the end of time enter heaven first (Our Lord's words "He who is first will be last, and he who is last will be first" remains one of my perennial meditations).
God bless you, brother. And peace be with you.
8.25.2012 | 3:45pm
Gil says:
harry,
Excellent point, for there is no mention of a Trinity, three persons in one substance, in Scriptures, no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. It was discerned by the Body of Christ in the movement of the Holy Spirit with Christ's mind as its locus, and, because it wasn't stated explicitly in Scriptures, it wouldn't be settled on as a carved-in-stone-doctrine (dogma) until after 400 years of contemplating it and battling those who denied it precisely because it wasn't stated in Scriptures. If Jesus had just SAID it, we as Church wouldn't have had to agonize and battle one another over it for four centuries. But then, it wasn’t a problem for those who had from the beginning embraced the apostolic tradition as instituted by Christ.
And of course, there are Christian denominations today who reject the Trinity and use scriptures as their final and absolute authority.
Excellent point, for there is no mention of a Trinity, three persons in one substance, in Scriptures, no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. It was discerned by the Body of Christ in the movement of the Holy Spirit with Christ's mind as its locus, and, because it wasn't stated explicitly in Scriptures, it wouldn't be settled on as a carved-in-stone-doctrine (dogma) until after 400 years of contemplating it and battling those who denied it precisely because it wasn't stated in Scriptures. If Jesus had just SAID it, we as Church wouldn't have had to agonize and battle one another over it for four centuries. But then, it wasn’t a problem for those who had from the beginning embraced the apostolic tradition as instituted by Christ.
And of course, there are Christian denominations today who reject the Trinity and use scriptures as their final and absolute authority.
So you say.
It's regrettable that the Catholic church has lately substituted the path of Mary for the biblical path to practical sanctification, which is that we are, all of us in Christ's body, already saints (a word used only in the plural in the NT), and that only as we understand our new position in Christ in Romans 3-5 through NO merit of our own (chapter 4, verse 5) we can overcome the grip of sin in Romans 6 and 7, and emerge victorious and joyful in Romans 8. By focusing on Mary instead of Christ in me, the hope of glory, the Catholic church deprives the believer of knowing his true inheritance, thereby weakening, not strengthening, him in his struggle against sin.
I will agree that the doctrines of Mary taught by the Catholic church are consistent with its understanding of salvation; indeed, that seems the Marian doctrines' main reason for being. But that does not make the Marian doctrines any less false and distracting, or the Catholic church's understanding of salvation any less deficient.
My heart is torn in writing these things, knowing they will disturb my Catholic brothers and sisters, but as Paul wrote, "For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view." (2 Cor 5:14-16, NIV84). Him who has ears to hear, let him hear.