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George Weigel

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Campaign 2012: Burke vs. Hobbes?

You likely think, gentle reader, that the 2012 presidential race is a contest between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. That, of course, is true, insofar as the names on our Nov. 6 ballots go. But the 2012 race for the White House is something more, something more profound—something with deeper historical roots in modernity’s wrestling with political power and how that power contributes to the common good.

This is a contest, to take symbolic reference points, between Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) and Edmund Burke (1729-1797).

Both were British subjects. Both had a profound impact on modern political theory. Both knew that religion and politics—Church and state—had been thickly interwoven into the history of the West, although here the deep differences between these two paradigmatic figures begin to sharpen: Hobbes tried to drive religious conviction out of the modern public square, while Burke fashioned a vision of political modernity that drew in part on the rich social pluralism of the Catholic Middle Ages.

In a Hobbesian world, the only actors of consequence are the state and the individual. In a Burkean world, the institutions of civil society—family, religious congregation, voluntary association, business, trade union and so forth—“mediate” between the individual and the state, and the just state takes care to provide an appropriate legal framework in which those civil-society institutions can flourish.

In a Hobbesian world, the state—“Leviathan,” in the title of Hobbes’s most famous and influential work—monopolizes power for the sake of protecting individuals from the vicissitudes of a life that is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.” In a Burkean world, civil society provides a thick layer of mediation—protection, if you will—that cushions the interactions between individuals and life’s challenges.

A Hobbesian world is a world of contracts and legal relationships, period. A Burkean world is a world in which there are both contracts—the rule of law—and covenants: those more subtly textured human associations (beginning with marriage) by which men and women form bonds of affection, allegiance, and mutual responsibility.

Catholic political theorists have always had major difficulties with Hobbes, and not simply for his promotion of what we would call, today, the “naked public square”: a public space shorn of religious conviction. Hobbes’s vision of the state is far too cold for the social sensibilities of Catholics, who habitually think of society as organic, not artificial or contrived.

By contrast, Burke’s defense of society’s “small platoons” has numerous affinities with Catholic social doctrine, from Leo XIII through Benedict XVI. John Paul II, for example, was particularly forceful in his defense of the mediating institutions of civil society, describing them in the 1991 encyclical Centesimus Annus as schools of freedom: those natural human associations, beginning with the family, where beautiful, willful little tyrants (which is a precise description of every 2-year-old ever born) are transformed into the kind of civil, tolerant adult citizens who can participate in public life through their minds, not just their muscles.

No American presidential candidate is going to run on an explicitly Hobbesian platform. And the complexities of life in a post-modern world are such that a purely Burkean republic is unlikely anytime soon. The issue here is one of tendencies, orientations, visions of possibility. And at that level, 2012 really is shaping up as a contest between “Hobbes” and “Burke.”

For as the candidates have presented themselves to the country over the past months, and most recently at their conventions, it has become ever more clear that America will choose in 2012 between two paths into the future. Along one path, there is, finally, room for only the individual and the state. Along the other path, the flourishing institutions of civil society empower individuals and contribute to real problem-solving. In the former, the state defines responsibilities and awards benefits (and penalties). In the latter, individuals and free, voluntary associations assume responsibility and thereby thus make their contribution to the common good.

Hobbes vs. Burke. It’s an old argument. It’s also the argument we shall have between now and Nov. 6.

George Weigel is Distinguished Senior Fellow of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C.

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Comments:

9.5.2012 | 1:50am
Rick says:
This is a very interesting parallel, and an interesting contrast also. But maybe I've missed something. You didn't elucidate how our civil society has been ravaged and driven from the public square over the last four years. All our local civil organizations and relationships here in my small Kentucky town seem to be unaffected. Is this happening only in other places? Maybe I'm just too provincial.
9.5.2012 | 9:25am
Edwin says:
Mr. Weigel's thesis would at least have been interesting, if not convincing, had he provided any specific arguments backing it up. Large corporations, Mr. Weigel, are not "little platoons."
9.5.2012 | 9:26am
Joseph says:
Should not a Burkean be more inclined to support the candidate who, as a much denigrated community organizer, helped to rebuild civil society in an industrial wasteland as opposed whose former vocation was to create such wastelands (ie by shuttering factories)?
9.5.2012 | 9:45am
Dan says:
I don't mean to be obtuse, but... which candidate is which here? I don't think this is as clear-cut as you want it to be. Obama is not anti-marriage or anti-religion, and Romney is not pro-trade-union or pro-mutual-responsibility. In all honesty, I'm not sure which candidate you want us to associate with which thinker.
9.5.2012 | 10:14am
Tristian says:
There's a part of me that kind of wishes American politics could be this interesting, though my more prudent side is thankful it isn't. Weigel seems to be competing with himself in coming up with ever more hyperbolic and implausible ways to think about contemporary affairs.
9.5.2012 | 10:15am
Adam says:
You only have to look as far as the video which was shown at the DNC recently ("The Government Is The Only Thing We All Belong To"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLa9Te8Blw

Couldn't be clearer.
9.5.2012 | 10:23am
arty says:
I don't think Weigel meant readers to identify his subjects with one particular candidate or the other, as in. "No American presidential candidate...". Better to articulate why Hobbes or Burke's vision of society is more correct, and see which of the candidates gives you the most of that vision and the least of the alternative ones.
9.5.2012 | 10:40am
I just read this yesterday: "The more society is viewed as a collection of self-seeking individuals, the more authority is transferred to a centralized, absolutist state." (Bryan Stone, "Evangelism After Christendom."

Now, Mr. Weigel, are you really so optimistic that Mr. Romney and the Republicans are going to blunt the Hobbesian trend of our society? The Republicans are just as captive to the fundamental view of society as the Democrats. They just differ on the means -- the almighty market, vs. government programs -- that will bring the greatest benefit to the most.

So, no matter who wins, I don't expect any great changes. Psalm 146.3.
9.5.2012 | 10:41am
David M says:
The distinction between Hobbes and Burke is a false dichotomy. The ideals sought for by opposite parties are often the same. We disagree on the means to our ends, not on the ends themselves.
9.5.2012 | 12:09pm
bierce says:
Burke vs. Hobbes? Campaign 2012 once again presents Americans with what appears to be a purely Machiavellian contest for mastery. The conduct and message of each candidates seem guided by the teachings of "The Prince," particularly Chapter XVIII "Concernng the Way in which Princes Should Keep Faith":

"Therefore a wise lord cannot, nor ought he to, keep faith when such observance may be turned against him, and when the reasons that caused him to pledge it exist no longer. If men were entirely good this precept would not hold, but because they are bad, and will not keep faith with you, you too are not bound to observe it with them. Nor will there ever be wanting to a prince legitimate reasons to excuse this non-observance...

But it is necessary to know well how to disguise this characteristic, and to be a great pretender and dissembler; and men are so simple, and so subject to present necessities, that he who seeks to deceive will always find someone who will allow himself to be deceived. One recent example I cannot pass over in silence. Alexander the Sixth did nothing else but deceive men, nor ever thought of doing otherwise, and he always found victims; for there never was a man who had greater power in asserting, or who with greater oaths would affirm a thing, yet would observe it less; nevertheless his deceits always succeeded according to his wishes, because he well understood this side of mankind.

Therefore it is unnecessary for a prince to have all the good qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always to observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and to be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

And you have to understand this, that a prince, especially a new one, cannot observe all those things for which men are esteemed, being often forced, in order to maintain the state, to act contrary to fidelity, friendship, humanity, and religion. Therefore it is necessary for him to have a mind ready to turn itself accordingly as the winds and variations of fortune force it, yet, as I have said above, not to diverge from the good if he can avoid doing so, but, if compelled, then to know how to set about it."

An Italian proverb concerning the Borgia pope and his son (rather in line with Machiavelli's assessment) observed:

Alexander never did what he said,
Cesare never said what he did.

Our choice is more Borgia vs. Borgia than Burke vs. Hobbes.
9.5.2012 | 12:35pm
A Reader says:
I wonder, if we substitute "United States" for "Europe," we might see a possible future for us in this description of Europe's present political reality (by Pierre Manent):

"In Europe what we say as citizens no longer has any importance, since political actions will be decided at ... a place we cannot situate in relation to the standpoint from which we speak. ... If this process continues ... we will soon leave behind the regime of representative government and return to one of commandment ... that of regulations. ... The increasingly complex and constraining character of ordinary life and the tighter network of regulations that we obey with ever-greater docility must not blind us to the increasing uncertainty ... in the shape of our common life. We are going forward on thinning ice."

This increasing uncertainty and disorder has not yet appeared, according to one post, in the small towns of America. One of its most dramatic appearances however has taken place on college and university campuses; microcosms that are often precursors of societal change.

Dr. Manent also writes: "During the premodern era, competing political forms - the city, the empire, and the Church - checked one another, so it was necessary to create the unprecedented form of the nation. Today, the situation is reversed. What we find is not an excess but a dearth of political forms. At least in "Europe the nation is discredited and delegitimized but no other form is emerging. ... Technical norms and legal regulations are supposed to suffice for the organization of common life."

"Europe has deprived itself of the means of association in which its life had found the richest meaning, diffracted in a multiplicity of national languages that rivaled one another in strength and grace."

Certain the "means of association" referred to by Pierre Manent and by George Weigel does not refer to corporations but rather to families, civic organizations, clubs, communities, and churches existing alongside local, state and federal governments - diverse groups united for the common good.
9.5.2012 | 12:41pm
mary hill says:
Mr. W,

You always make me think!God bless you for following God through your writing.

This makes me think in a much larger way than my own opinion. I will be thinking about this all the way thru election.

Joy, m
9.5.2012 | 1:08pm
It amazes me how many well meaning people today seem to think the R and D parties are distinctions without a difference. I couldn't disagree more, and I like Mr. Weigel's contrast between Hobbes and Burke. While the Republican Party may not be ideal when it comes to Constitutional fealty and limited government commitments, it's a different party then the one Ronald Reagan inherited that was filled with country club moderate types who despised Reagan.

The fact is we have two parties, and we are stuck with that, and the only party open to the ideas of Edmund Burke is the Republican Party. Those who embrace America's Founding values have absolutely no leverage on the Democrat Party, and we have proven to move the conversation and convictions of the Republican Party over the last 30 years. To give up on the Republican Party and declare them Democrats in sheep's clothing is frankly just plain old dumb.
9.5.2012 | 1:14pm
JP says:
Perhaps a better comparison would be Hobbes and Rousseau. Both used the Greek Model of Nature, and both came up with different discoveries. As a matter of fact, from what I understand, Rousseau didn't believe Hobbes went deep enough into Nature. Rousseau attempted to "correct" at what he saw were Hobbes errors. As a matter of fact, we can divide much of our political thought between the 2 men. Hobbes was the stark, cold realist who saw that Life was Mean, Nasty, Brutish and Short. Only be using the lowest in Man could Man organize his society, life and politics to achieve an easier state in life. Rousseau, was the sentimentalist. Unlike Hobbes, Nature and "natural living" are things we should esteem and live by. In Rousseau's world the nobel savage is a much superior human type to that of the hardworking, industrious (and self-seeking) Bourgeosie.

In Hobbes, we have the cold, narrow minded bourgeois merchant; In Rousseau, we have the sensitive, feeling artisit whose soul is repelled by the narrowness of civilization. Rousseau's influence could be seen in both the artisits of the day (Goethe, Schiller), as well as the revolutionairies of 1789. The epitomy of Hobbes can be seen in our own President Coolidge.
9.5.2012 | 4:33pm
Don ROberto says:
Dan (9.5.2012 | 9:45am ), you don't think Obama is anti-religion or anti-family? Hmmm—ahhh!—You must be a fan of the NYT, Newsweek and MSNBC. You must not see Christianity and the beliefs of its adherents over the centuries as having a special place in the list of religions. You must think it's A-okay for children to be raised by step-parents; for people to break their marital vows when a new spark of passion becomes too tempting. You must be an advocate of government funded contraception (that promiscuity-promoting pill) to a degree that allows you to overlook the anti-Catholic nature of such a law. Okay, if so, then your statement makes more sense. †
9.5.2012 | 6:00pm
Ben Embry says:
The farce of this whole article is that the little platoon that sent Romney as a candidate doesn't even respect little platoons. The RNC is a mediating institution, a platoon. It is a little platoon that allows the citizens to engagement in self-government. But throughout this Republican runoff, the RNC has undercut the voters and denied them a hand in the operation of this little platoon. This Republican race for the presidential candidacy has been record-setting in changes in procedure at the last minute or in solitary vote counting. I'm speaking mainly in regard to the way that Ron Paul was handled by RNC. I mean, if the man was so unelectable, then let him lose and let his few (?) supporters have the satisfaction race well-run.. (and i dont vote, so my observations are purely as critic; some of my family does vote and they have unregistered themselves as republicans b/c of RNC disrespect of procedure.) there is no need to undercut the voice of the people by changing rules and hiding vote counts. 
Anyway, I don't think that the comparison of mittRomney to burke is justified at any level. I was actually wondering if this is the first installment of a new highbrow humor column in first things. I'm not sure who the joke is on though. 
9.5.2012 | 7:56pm
I wish to thank George Weigel for his insightful article. The article raises very good questions about the philosophies behind the current debate in the public square. Hobbes philosophy was materialist that promoted the total separation of religion and state. But in my own research I found convergence between the findings of materialist Neo-Darwinian evolutionary thought and the Catholic Church's teaching on humans as the image of God. Moreover, it is reassuring that post-modernist thought of the anthropologist Rene Girard on mimetic theory was endorsed by no less than the late Richard John Neuhaus, founder of First Things.
9.6.2012 | 12:19am
Tim Gordon says:
Does anyone here know what the central platform of the Whigs was? If you take a look, then you'll see why it's silly to associate Burke with Catholicism...
9.6.2012 | 12:33am
Tristian says:
There are differences between the two major parties, but those differences disappear from sight when we ascend to the heights occupied by the likes of Hobbes and Burke (or, come to that, Rousseau). Both parties are committed to the basic principles of liberal democracy, the core institutions of the American instantiation of that tradition, and indeed the bulk of the programs and offices affected by those institutions. They disagree on implementation. This is not to suggest their disagreements are unimportant, but they are not for the most part the sorts of thing we should turn to classical political philosophy for help with. That’s why Weigel’s piece is so unilluminating.

It’s worth noting the oddity of the choice of Hobbes and Burke as “symbolic reference points”, both of whom I would argue lie mostly outside the liberal democratic tradition. This is clear in the case of Hobbes, but though he’s in some ways a more nuanced thinker, let’s not forget that in the end Burke was an apologist for monarchy. He also shared Hobbes’ disbelief in the existence of rights existing independently from, and so prior to, effective law.
9.6.2012 | 2:03am
Rick says:
@Mike D'Virgilio: "It amazes me how many well meaning people today seem to think the R and D parties are distinctions without a difference. I couldn't disagree more, and I like Mr. Weigel's contrast between Hobbes and Burke. While the Republican Party may not be ideal when it comes to Constitutional fealty and limited government commitments, it's a different party then the one Ronald Reagan inherited that was filled with country club moderate types who despised Reagan."

Exactly. There seems to be a growing chasm between the two parties that probably explains their inability to work together as they used to in the past. I believe the greatest change, though, is taking place in the Republican Party. The country club moderates are running for cover, while the new idealogical zealots are taking control. Consider Paul Ryan, who, out of his own mouth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFEyBKssP6Q), brags about how Ayn Rand was the greatest inspirational force in his life, how her books are required reading by his Congressional staff, and how he goes back to reread critical sections of her books before any important Congressional decision in order to assure that his actions are in line with her philosophy--a philosophy of shallow narcissism, hyper-individualism, and militant atheism.

Yes, I believe we will have a real choice in November.
9.6.2012 | 10:01am
Thanks for the opportunity to comment on such heavy-weight debates in contemporary America. In fact the debates are global and of economical nature for survival and expansion. We have to see things as objectively as possible. With this in mind, I think that the debate is between moral values and immorality. The more the moral aspect of the human civilized world is promoted the more young generations will flourish and defeat atheistic materialism and invest their lives in the Christian vision for the world. The reason for World Youth Day, founded by Blessed John Paul II, is precisely the evangelization of the youth everywhere. Unfortunately Capitalism which has conquered the world since the end of WWII, seems to have recently become excessive in the sense that it has become a materialist philosophy that promotes materialist consumerism yet encourages large businesses to acquire the resources of the world. Small business is taken over by large business which really reflects a Darwinian self-centered approach. What the average citizen needs is an honorable contribution to the economic growth through a relatively secured job. Thanks to technological advances these jobs are becoming scarce and more demanding for young adults whose unemployment rate remains high. Governments are required to reduce their debts which in turn requires them to lay off their employees. The entire economic opportunities become concentrated in the hands of a few rich investors. More needs to be said here!
9.6.2012 | 10:50am
I do not think that Edmund Burke would support abortion in cases of rape, incest, and the life (and possibly the “health”) of the mother.

I do think that Hobbes would support abortion in all cases as well as infanticide (In the Illinois State Senate Obama consistently supported late-term abortions and used his influence in committee to kill a bill that would have provided medical care and protection for babies born alive after an abortion; see www.lifenews.com/2012/03/05/wheres-the-outrage-over-obamas-past-infanticide-support/ and www.lifenews.com/2012/08/23/new-audio-surfaces-of-obama-defending-infanticide-in-illinois/ ).
9.6.2012 | 11:45am
Weigel grossly overstates his case, but it's fun to see the charge of engaging in the politics of fear redirected against the Democrats. And not just overstated; it ignores important ambiguities. Clearly Weigel wants Republicans to be Burkean and some are, but the fact is they are mostly stalwart Lockeans, while Democrats have Burkean elements. For instance, the traditional Democrat policy of standing up for the little guy against giant faceless corporations (still a powerful image for Democrats) aims to providing a mediating layer (i.e. the state viewed as representing the interests of the "little guy") between powerful ubiquitous institutions (i.e. big business, which wasn't very big in Burke's time) and the little guy and his little platoons. The idea that the state could or should act as a mediating layer wouldn't have occurred to Burke since the Industrial Revolution had not yet created powerful independent business interests as important political actor. Who knows how he would reacted to this development. He might very well have made common cause with T. H. Green and landed in the Welfare State camp.
9.6.2012 | 12:21pm
So Rick, everything Ayn Rand said was trash? Mighty nuanced of you. I guess Ryan's Catholic faith doesn't inform any of his thinking at all, right? How do you know? Have you ever talked to him? One video and you know everything about the guy?

Is everything the statists, the socialists, the Marxists, the progressives (but I repeat myself), the Democrats (but I repeat myself again) good? Let me see, Obama and Bill Clinton are not narcissistic? Really? How do you know when individualism is "hyper"? I'm just as much against militant atheism as the next follower of Jesus, but wasn't it Democrats in Charlotte yesterday who booed putting God back in their platform? Anybody that votes for that group gets what they deserve: European style welfare state failure. Just look at the Democrat models of Obama's way "forward": California and Illinois (the state I come from and the state I unfortunately live in--Ugh!). With all due respect, Rich, I don't think this is much of a choice.
9.6.2012 | 1:31pm
David M says:
The distinction between Hobbes and Burke is a false dichotomy. The ideals sought for by opposite parties are often the same. We disagree on the means to our ends, not on the ends themselves.

David, somehow I don't think you meant to say the means don't matter. That would be too close to "The end justifies the means," which we all know is problematic.
9.6.2012 | 6:30pm
Rick says:
@Mike D'Virgilio:

My, I seem to have hit a sensitive nerve with my comment above! I didn't have the chance to elaborate on my point very well, but there are some obvious logical fallacies in your "rebuttal."

Saying that I consider Rand to be a deviant cult leader is not, of course, the same as saying that she never had any defensible ideas. For example, she despised Bolshevism and thought that it crushed individuals. Bravo! I like it! But she wouldn't stop there. She agreed with the Bolsheviks that religious belief was a supersition fit only for uneducated peasants. She once told Bill Buckley, "You are too intelligent to believe in God." She exalted the exceptional individual to the status of a superman, much as Nietsche did, and enshrined selfishness as the highest virtue. She stated that the great mass of humanity did not deserve to be loved because "they are weak." Throughout her life, she gave the heave-ho to her closest companions because she came to the conclusion that they were unworthy of her genius. Need I go on?

Second fallacy: If I despise Rand's deranged thinking, I must believe that all statists, socialists, Marxists, Democrats, and so forth are good, wise, and virtuous. Why? How does that follow from what I said? They are all just as fallible as I am, and I very often disagree with them. But let's try to stay on topic.

Ryan had repeatedly put Rand front and center in his ideological universe. (I am not basing my conclusions on "one video.") But he seems to want to blend Rand and Jesus. There are two possibilities. Either he is simpleminded and doesn't realize that this is impossible, or he is dissembling about his Catholic faith and hopes no-one will notice. Neither possibility is very encouraging.

Moreover, Ryan is not alone among Republicans in idealizing Rand's philosophy. The Tea Party recently went to great efforts to promote the film "Atlas Shrugged" which celebrate's Rand's ideology. Imagine, good American Christians promoting a film which celebrate's the ideas of an atheist who scorned democratic majority rule. They needn't have bothered, though. The movie was a big an artistic disaster as the novel.
9.6.2012 | 8:55pm
Mark VA says:
George Weigel wrote:

"For as the candidates have presented themselves to the country over the past months, and most recently at their conventions, it has become ever more clear that America will choose in 2012 between two paths into the future. Along one path, there is, finally, room for only the individual and the state"

I would somewhat rephrase the last sentence - in the final analysis, it may be the state and its subjects , "individuals" having been long consigned to history.
9.6.2012 | 10:31pm
Ben Embry says:
The second comment on this thread made by Edwin is on target. He said, "Mr. Weigel's thesis would at least have been interesting, if not convincing, had he provided any specific arguments backing it up."

Edwin is right, and even though a few commenters did try to provide specifics for Weigel's thesis, Weigel himself has no plans to do so. He merely provides the narrative; the individual reader supplies his own specifics according to taste. Weigel suggests a story; the reader decides to absorb it as his own narrative of the campaign, whether or not it is anchored in reality.

Weigel himself commended this kind of persuasion for its success a few years back after Obama won in '08. It looks like he is trying to cook up the same recipe for his own party now. Here's what Weigel said back then when discussing the creation of narratives which don't rely on specifics, but on preference and fancy:

Weigel: " Narrative is all, and narrative has no tether to an objective truth of things that we can know by the exercise of our reason.....creation and marketing of a compelling ... narrative has replaced the contest of issues and ideas as the driving force of electoral politics. Everyone knows that this is what's going on; a senior producer at a major mainstream-media network told me in the early 2008 presidential-primary season he was appalled by the callousness, indeed cynical craftiness, with which “the narrative” was manipulated by focus group-besotted campaign managers for the most minute electoral advantage."

So Edwin and others who are waiting for the author to account for his narrative of Burke Vs Hobbes can stop holding their breath. The point of his article wasn't to argue from specifics but to suggest a template upon which you might form your opinions. There are no specifics to call upon, and Weigel knows this.

And here's me apologizing for the unedited comment I made earlier. That is what it looks like when you use Siri voice dictation technology while driving. I hope my point was understood: regardless of which candidate you prefer, the treatment that the RNC has given its constituency indicates a terrible disrespect for it, and Romney's team fuels these disrespectful activities. And yet, come november, thousands of Republicans will hold the hand that disrespects them.
9.7.2012 | 12:17pm
Rick, without the @ symbol, what is this thing about nerve? I see, you are simply “logical” while I am a bundle of nerves. Well, we can’t all be superior.

Actually, regarding Rand you don’t need to go on, because that while some of your points about Rand are accurate, your caricature of her is simplistic in the extreme. But a blog commenting section is not the place to debate that.

Second fallacy: you claimed there is a choice in November implying by everything you said, your choice will not be the greedy, selfish Randian capitalist pigs (ok, you didn’t say pigs). Am I not to assume you back the other guys and what they believe?

So your assertion is that Rand and Jesus are mutually exclusive? Talk about simple minded. I can tell by your use of logic and fallacy that you don’t do nuance very well. Many of America’s founders where Diests, so should Christians have rejected everything they stood for? Seriously, Rick, just admit you are a liberal, believe in modern liberalism’s love of the redistribution of wealth, and think the state is a better moral arbiter of what people should do with their money than the free market.

As for me and my household, we will choose liberty, even if an arrogant atheist promoted it in a not so winsome fashion.
9.10.2012 | 1:17pm
David M says:
Mike Melendez, that is not what I was saying. In fact, I was saying the opposite. "We disagree on the means" actually means that we do not disagree on the ends, but on the means to the ends. I'm not sure how you managed to reverse that..
My comment also really doesn't say anything about the greater philosophical question about whether or not the ends justify the means. In summary then, you have misunderstood on two fronts.
Thank you anyways for including me in the discussion :)
3.23.2013 | 7:10am
John Issitt says:
Really interesting paths trodden in this debate.

I've been studying Burke and Paine for a long while now. My natural liberal inclinations go with Paine but the passage of the years forces me to recognise the practical good sense of Burke. Over here in the UK this means I have to give ground to the enemy - the conservatives I guess that would mean the Republicans in the US.

It leaves me very uncomfortable and aware of my own hypocrisy and contradictions.

Um
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