There are probably a number of legitimate perspectives that First Things could offer on Glenn Beck’s recent rally in Washington, D.C. As an evangelical who is allergic to civic religion, my take is likely to be extremely unpopular. I am a fervent believer in the need for Christianity to take its natural place as the prophetic voice in the public square. But something about Beck’s approach rubbed me the wrong way.
While I struggled to decide what to say, I discovered Russell Moore’s blistering essay. He says everything I wanted to say better than I could:
A Mormon television star stands in front of the Lincoln Memorial and calls American Christians to revival. He assembles some evangelical celebrities to give testimonies, and then preaches a God and country revivalism that leaves the evangelicals cheering that they’ve heard the gospel, right there in the nation’s capital.
The news media pronounces him the new leader of America’s Christian conservative movement, and a flock of America’s Christian conservatives have no problem with that.
If you’d told me that ten years ago, I would have assumed it was from the pages of an evangelical apocalyptic novel about the end-times. But it’s not. It’s from this week’s headlines. And it is a scandal.
As Moore notes, the problem isn’t really Beck. The problem is believers trading the true faith for the syncretism of Christian-flavored civic religion:
Too often, and for too long, American “Christianity” has been a political agenda in search of a gospel useful enough to accommodate it. There is a liberation theology of the Left, and there is also a liberation theology of the Right, and both are at heart mammon worship. The liberation theology of the Left often wants a Barabbas, to fight off the oppressors as though our ultimate problem were the reign of Rome and not the reign of death. The liberation theology of the Right wants a golden calf, to represent religion and to remind us of all the economic security we had in Egypt. Both want a Caesar or a Pharaoh, not a Messiah.
Read the rest. What did you think? Do you side with Beck or Moore?
August 30th, 2010 | 1:55 pm
America can become an idol as much as anything else.
Mr. Beck appears to be placing Americaism as his idol and others are following with the belief that it is Christianity.
This worries me theologically, patriotically and personally.
JMP
August 30th, 2010 | 2:01 pm
The rally and its implications will be the subject of Elizabeth Scalia’s On the Square article tomorrow (Tuesday, August 31st).
August 30th, 2010 | 2:02 pm
In fairness to Beck, I should add that his own Mormon beliefs are entirely compatible with the message he is proffering. Since Mormons think the Constitution is “divinely inspired” it has a much more religious significance for him than it should for orthodox Christians.
August 30th, 2010 | 2:09 pm
I’m confused.
The very root–at least historically speaking–of the last half-century of “evangelicalism” has been the wish to engage culture and social issues in a way that the older fundamentalism was not willing to do.
See. e.g., http://www.theopedia.com/Neo-evangelicalism . In http://www.russellmoore.com/documents/russellmoore/evangelical-left.pdf , Dr. Moore himself describes Carl Henry’s wish to move towards a “socially and politically engaged evangelicalism”.
File this one under “be careful what you wish for” and “unintended consequences.”
August 30th, 2010 | 2:10 pm
You’ve got to be kidding!
Someone find Mr. Moore’s fainting couch.
August 30th, 2010 | 2:21 pm
dwl File this one under “be careful what you wish for” and “unintended consequences.”
It’s the nature of man to screw up good intentions.
To be honest, though, I think Beck-style civil religion would still become a force even if every evangelical opposed it. Most people—including Christians—appear to have more interest in politics than with religion (compare the popularity of political blogs and faith-oriented blogs to get an idea of what I mean). And there are plenty of believers in “moral therapeutic deism” who want to have a political component to their belief system.
napier You’ve got to be kidding!
Kidding about what? That maybe we shouldn’t make a leader of the “Christian right” a guy who thinks the Constitution was as divinely inspired as the Book of Romans?
August 30th, 2010 | 2:23 pm
But the leeks! And the melons! And those cucumbers…
August 30th, 2010 | 2:34 pm
I mostly share Beck’s politics. BUT that does not mean that I would publicly pray with him and send the message to the millions watching that his false religion and Christianity are the same thing. Not to mention all the other false religions present there. People of different faiths or no faith can work together for shared political goals without pretending they have the same beliefs and without having an inter-religious revival. The pro-life movement is an example of that.
When Glenn Beck says “go to any house of worship you want as long as they preach love and not hate” he is preaching universalism and he is telling the millions who follow him that all religions are the same as long as you have the right morals and patriotism. And when Christians participate in that and cheer for it they are giving that same message to the lost. We speak with our actions and with what we don’t say as much as with our words.
I am not interested in attacking Beck. I would pray for his conversion and wish him well. I am far more concerned with what people are being told about their salvation. My criticism is much more about Christians who are allowing their faith to be watered down and folded into a gooey, universalist civil religion.
August 30th, 2010 | 2:37 pm
Joe, what did Beck say with which you disagree?
August 30th, 2010 | 2:39 pm
Besides, I’m curious what an American Christianity that is NOT in search of a “political agenda” would look like.
Ever since the First Great Awakening created the colonial solidarity that led to the Revolutionary War, evangelicalism and democracy–the entire panoply of political beliefs and practices that characterize “America”–have been kissing and fighting, fighting and kissing.
If evangelicalism finally tells American democracy “GOOD-BY!”, would we still have an evangelicalism worth talking about?
August 30th, 2010 | 2:42 pm
[...] The Gospel and Glenn BeckFirst Things (blog)… and then preaches a God and country revivalism that leaves the evangelicals cheering that they've heard the gospel, right there in the nation's capital. …Glenn Beck's "Restoring Honor" a huge successRenewAmericaIs Glenn Beck the new Jeremiah Wright, an angry prophet?USA TodayGlenn Beck rally: Restoring Honor rally streaming live video on Facebook to …Examiner.comCaffeinated Thoughts (blog) -CNN -Washington Postall 4,852 news articles » [...]
August 30th, 2010 | 3:22 pm
I forget on the right, they tear apart people just as much as the left does.
You guys just cover it in robes of religion.
Does that help you sleep better at night?
Someone asks people to gather and celebrate real heros, not the false idol of Obama, sings hymns and praises god, and all you do is is rip it apart because it is “not your” religion.
This country has moved from the whorship of God to the whorship of Obama and material things and you think one person, who may not fit up to your standards, can’t ask people to get back to God?
Hypocrits
August 30th, 2010 | 3:31 pm
Good grief. That’s why the Left will succeed in destroying this country: because Christians prefer fighting internecine struggles about the purity of their beliefs instead of uniting against a common foe.
Saturday morning Glenn Beck succeeded in uniting Americans based on shared faith–a powerful antidote to the divisiveness wrought by the gramscian Left. He tore a big hole the Left’s boat, or hadn’t you noticed? But that’s not good enough for you. To hell with it. You reap what you sow.
August 30th, 2010 | 3:47 pm
[...] the awkward task of defending Glenn Beck. Me thinks we take him too seriously. Big mistake. …The Gospel and Glenn BeckFirst Things (blog)Glenn Beck in Washington: Preaching the gospel of Mammon and militarismWorld [...]
August 30th, 2010 | 4:08 pm
“shared faith” ahem? Which shared aspects did you have in mind — baptism for the dead, pre-existent souls, magical golden plates, or an eternity of bliss on planets ruled by polygamous patriarchs, maybe?
August 30th, 2010 | 4:27 pm
Jolene & ahem:
I think the referenced article makes some valid points. Yes, the left gets trapped in divisive squabbles, but the right is prone to gather under a single “leader figure” and attempt to quash all dissent. Neither extreme is desirable.
Are you really willing to set aside your faith for political purposes? That’s the issue at hand. Your insistence that we all click our heels and salute Glenn Beck simply because he is a powerful figure is rather off-putting.
August 30th, 2010 | 4:44 pm
How about “none of the above”?
Beck’s “God” is, at best, the god of Steven King’s novel “The Stand”. The slack-jawed, ignorant enthusiasm with which his half-baked and heretical musings are received are indeed appaling to me. I harbor no illusions that the bicycle riders have any clue as to how the last 50 years of divorce and birth control–the frontrunners of the abortion holocust–have done damage that only many, many elections can repair, if ever.
But you, Joe, can be counted on, as usual, to drop a wet, steaming duce on any expression of spiritual hunger or movement towards satisfying same, without giving any constructive alternative. The implied illusion you buy into in the name of purity is that the God mentioned in the Constitution (inspired or otherwise) of this country is anyone other than the one worshiped by Jews and Christians. At least try to use this forum to come up with something that actual believers can support with a clear conscience.
August 30th, 2010 | 4:55 pm
“Yes, the left gets trapped in divisive squabbles, but the right is prone to gather under a single “leader figure” and attempt to quash all dissent. Neither extreme is desirable.”
If anything, the opposite is true.
August 30th, 2010 | 4:56 pm
Patrick writes: “… but the right is prone to gather under a single “leader figure” and attempt to quash all dissent.”
How different from Dear Leader BHO!
August 30th, 2010 | 5:03 pm
[...] or not this is a conscious strategy on Beck’s part, I’m pretty sure that neither serious evangelicals nor serious Mormons should be terribly enthused by his Jesus-and-George Washington ecumenism. But [...]
August 30th, 2010 | 5:16 pm
Ed Snyder But you, Joe, can be counted on, as usual, to drop a wet, steaming duce on any expression of spiritual hunger or movement towards satisfying same, without giving any constructive alternative.
What a bizarre claim. Here’s my constructive alternative: If anyone has a spiritual hunger that needs satisfying why don’t they turn to the Bible and their local church instead of FOX News and a rally by a Mormon on the National Mall.
Beck was holding a religious rally. If it had been for Mormons I would have respected that since his views align with theirs. But for Christians to turn to Glenn Beck to lead them out of the spiritual darkness is absurd.
August 30th, 2010 | 5:22 pm
napier You’ve got to be kidding!
Kidding about what? That maybe we shouldn’t make a leader of the “Christian right” a guy who thinks the Constitution was as divinely inspired as the Book of Romans?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
No. Kidding that there is anyone on the planet who is doing that. Kidding that there is a movement afoot, and that Glen Beck is its leader.
Just like the global warming alarmists who skip right over the problem of establishing that global warming is happening before telling us about all the bad consequences, you’ve made Glen Beck the leader of a movement that we have no reason to believe even exists.
One rally with (depending on whose counting) 80,000-300,000 people is not a movement. (Unless they’re all singing Alice’s Restaurant… in harmony).
August 30th, 2010 | 5:25 pm
O.K. Joe, if Americans are turning to heretics (and Glenn Beck is one) who co-opt our Judeo-Christian (yes, Judeo-Christian) foundations, and/or a forum for the most lurid take possible on the latest tot-napping (in non-election years) as sources of truth, then what does that have to say about what their local churches (Saint Saddleback, for example) and their interpretation of the Bible have to offer them? Seems to me not much.
August 30th, 2010 | 5:36 pm
napier Kidding that there is a movement afoot, and that Glen Beck is its leader.
Oh, man, I hope you’re right.
Ed Snyder then what does that have to say about what their local churches (Saint Saddleback, for example) and their interpretation of the Bible have to offer them? Seems to me not much.
I agree. In fact, that was Moore’s point.
But unfortunately, there were likely as many Catholics there as evangelicals. So maybe the problem runs deeper than the usual, lamentable failings of evangelicalism.
August 30th, 2010 | 5:42 pm
Last I checked, Mr. Beck is not a pastor. Were he to present his insights more like a Will Rogers perhaps he’d have greater popular appeal.
Watching his show or attending his events should not take the place of practicing your faith. I doubt Mr. Beck has emptied many churches. He’s probably done the opposite.
August 30th, 2010 | 5:45 pm
Dear Jolene and ahem – with all due respect – go back to Gateway Pundit where you belong.
August 30th, 2010 | 5:46 pm
JC: “But unfortunately, there were likely as many Catholics there as evangelicals. So maybe the problem runs deeper than the usual, lamentable failings of evangelicalism.”
If Beck had the background to do so (a stretch, I know), he might have used the word “virtue” instead of “character.” Virtue is a quality that, while perfected by Jesus Christ and taught most lucidly by the apostles, is not an exclusively Christian property. The Romans of the Republic knew them before the Church existed, and the Greeks before them. And the Jews knew them, too, though not as a program of self-improvement, nor as the glue that holds a society together. They practiced virtue in obedience to the laws that God gave them. God said it, they did it.
In this one thing, though, Beck got it exactly right: Our problem is not political parties or individual politicians. Our problem is US.
August 30th, 2010 | 5:59 pm
Mormons believe that Jesus and satan are spirtual brethren or from the same essence.Joseph Smith also taught that God was once an exalted man. They believe in a trinity but do not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God. These differences can not be reconciled. The Christ did not come down to us to be compared as a creation like satan.
August 30th, 2010 | 6:23 pm
I am prepared to make temporary common cause with Christians of almost any stripe in order to rid the United States of soft totalitarians.
Dear wakeup: Apparently, a statist government that is antagnostic toward every form of religion is good enough for you. Go back to sleep. It’s been swell.
August 30th, 2010 | 6:29 pm
Oh, and I’d like to ask you, Joe, exactly where is the charismatic Christian leader who would be preferable in your eyes to Mr. Beck? Where? No one has stepped forth from the Christian community to summon all denominations in common cause against those who are destroying our Constitution. You’ve got to take your victories where you may.
August 30th, 2010 | 7:35 pm
Beck put together a huge conservative rally in the nation’s capital. Conservatives should be praising this guy for his efforts. I’ve watched Beck a total of maybe 10 minutes since I heard of him, but I know he opposes radical liberalism and the disgraceful liberal media, — and that’s good enough for me. Beck is “in the arena”, to quote a former President; what are his conservative critics doing?
August 30th, 2010 | 9:40 pm
Late 20th and early 21st politically minded evangelicals seem to like to flock to the latest conservative news commentator/talk show host who has some religious bent. At first, it was Paul Harvey (for those of us over 50). Then it was Rush Limbaugh. Now it is Glenn Beck. He, too, shall pass and another will come along.
My theory: I think the popularity is due to the fact that many churches have stopped preaching the convicting gospel of Jonathan Edwards/Charles Finney/D. L. Moody and have become “seeker friendly”. So they are full of morally minded, politically right “believers” whose only convictions seem to be against abortion and homosexual marriage. So when they hear someone like Beck, they think he is God’s man of the hour.
However, if the mega “churches” actually preached a true gospel of repentance from sin and turning to God, then there would not be a need for a quasi preacher like Beck. We Christians would be on our knees calling on Holy God for revival in the land.
August 30th, 2010 | 9:56 pm
Dear ahem – that’s the point: Mormons aren’t Christian’s of any stripe. I agree with your first sentence – but assume you’ll agree, this does not include the religion founded by the Masonic, drug using, pedophile Mr. Joseph Smith in the early 1800′s along our nation’s Eastern coast. You know, Mr. Smith was a very charismatic figure whose earliest converts included Christians who were not well schooled in the Word, and by many a Christian pastor who were so taken with Mr. Smith’s personal charisma and charm.
Don’t worry. I’m not asleep. Apparently the 100,000+ willfully ignorant believers and their pastors who were hoping to bask in a little coverage on the Lincoln steps are the ones sleeping.
And no, you’re wrong, again. Nothing about any of this has been swell. That’s the whole point.
August 30th, 2010 | 10:20 pm
I’m amazed at how often the First Things crowd seems to bend over backwards to disapprove of Glenn Beck. Joe, you’re using a combination of straw men and subtle obfuscations to make some kind of case against Beck where none exists, at least not where you’re looking for it.
First, Beck is not trying to be a religious leader. For a public figure to say “You should go to some kind of church of your own choice,” is not somehow seeking to indoctrinate. Beck has been preaching an independence from the State that is dependent on the practice of some kind of faith. It seems like a natural step to hold a rally celebrating the idea that faith, faith of any kind, is worthy of celebration and practice.
And how, exactly, is Beck making an idol of America? Where, exactly, does he cross the line from patriotism to sinful attachment? What, exactly, is Beck asking people to do that is somehow leading them astray, or misinforming them, or somehow causing confusion?
I’m perfectly willing to listen to a case against Beck. Say something, man. Don’t give me a collection of allusions and unease and call it a point. You just leave me with the feeling that Beck’s not cerebral enough for you to add your little two cents to what he is doing. And for not throwing it in, you get the applause of the Left who also thinks Beck is too knuckle dragging for polite people to take seriously.
Grow up, man.
August 30th, 2010 | 11:32 pm
Beck’s rally resonated so powerfully because it was based in the 12-steps rather than in Mormon teaching. His insistence that we are powerless over what we face, that we must repent and return to God as we each understand Him is not an attempt to make all religions equal but rather to send us running to the only one who can save us from ourselves and our enemies. As already noted, he has historical precedence except those calls for repentance came from the pulpit and our elected officials. We are fortunate that God is using him (or do you place limits on God’s ability to use whomever He pleases?); whom else is fool enough to do as Beck is doing?
August 30th, 2010 | 11:43 pm
Good to see you wrestling with this, Joe.
I’m uneasy about Beck becoming Mr. Christian in the eyes of the media overnight. I’m also uneasy about the ease at which civil religion’s generic god took center stage without a peep from people who should know better.
That being said, Beck is pulling in the right directions in the political realm, albeit with an OD on libertarian economics and American exceptionalism.
August 31st, 2010 | 12:53 am
I think that we can agree that Mr. Beck’s Mormon faith is problematic, yet I think that we should also reflect on what his rally and the aftermath can mean to his largely non-Mormon audience and fan base. His call is not to embrace Mormonism but to embrace a connection to God and moral principles, ie. his 40 day challenge to pray nightly on your knees, live a life of honesty and be charitable (give to your church and those in need). If his mostly evangelical Christian audience took these and ran with it our nation would be in a much better place, they knowing God as He is and Mr. Beck the lost messenger pointing others toward connection to God as He really is.
Especially given that most Protestant Christians would also consider Catholics to be lost and following a false religion, we need to be wary.
So we can disagree with Mr. Beck’s personal faith, which I agree is wrong and a false version of “Christianity”, but also embrace the good of seeking to live out faith, hope, charity and love of Country, lest we forget most of our Founding Fathers would not fit neatly into 21st century Christendom, yet we embrace their value and their gift of the American constitutional republic.
It is reminiscent how the Jewish prayer service begins with the words “How goodly are your tents O Jacob, your tabernacles O Israel”, the words of Balaam, a pagan prophet who spoke blessing to the Jewish People and it is his words that set the mood for entering into Jewish prayer. If the true words of a pagan prophet can be used to open up prayer to the God of Israel, is it not reasonable to look at the good of focusing America on values and a return to God, even though like Balaam, Mr. Beck is also a “pagan prophet”?
August 31st, 2010 | 12:58 am
[...] siding with Moore include Joe Carter of First Thoughts and North Carolina pastor Tim Rogers of SBC Today. Interestingly, Baptist Press – the [...]
August 31st, 2010 | 3:16 am
Thank you, Peter L. Carry on.
August 31st, 2010 | 6:08 am
Since you got this far, please reread Sean Emslie’s comment above. I don’t think anyone in this thread, including the author, make a better or better illustrated point.
It reminds me of a song lyric I remember from church as a child in the 70′s- “you’ll know they are Christians by their love”. Glenn Beck and a few million other LDS folks may be following an errant theology, but who isn’t?
Do you think God will award a prize to every individual who crosses the threshold of eternity for having believed in absolutely correct theology?
Or is it more likely that we will learn that all of our theologies are at least at little bit wrong and God will instead look at our hearts to see if they are given to Him or turned away?
Our Messiah Jesus did not meet the Jews expectations 2000 years ago. He brought our salvation in a different, but infinitely more glorious, way. Likewise, God’s ultimate truth has been revealed but is not yet fully understood by any individual man or theology.
The stones are here for creating, not casting.
August 31st, 2010 | 7:44 am
Ed: “But you, Joe, can be counted on, as usual, to drop a wet, steaming duce on any expression of spiritual hunger.” Stay classy, Ed.
August 31st, 2010 | 8:31 am
[...] Whether or not this is a conscious strategy on Beck’s part, I’m pretty sure that neither serious evangelicals nor serious Mormons should be terribly enthused by his Jesus-and-George Washington ecumenism. But [...]
August 31st, 2010 | 9:31 am
[...] a comment to my post yesterday criticizing the self-promotion of Glenn Beck as a leader for conservative Christians, a [...]
August 31st, 2010 | 9:32 am
[...] from all directions, including a Southern Baptist theologian who says the gospel must be …The Gospel and Glenn BeckFirst Things (blog)The Gospel According To St. Beck, Chapters 10-?The Moderate VoiceGlenn Beck in [...]
August 31st, 2010 | 9:43 am
I appreciate the critique, and we can never reach the point where Christianity is nothing but a “useful” enterprise that advances a political agenda. However, any political aims Christians have will inevitably be criticized on these sorts of “you should not be involved in politics” grounds. As one my theology professors put it (in a class appropriately named “Christianity and Culture”): ‘I do not want the church to be corrupted by the world, but I also think that it is good for the world.’ How does work out, practically? I means churches should take positions on issues but never endorse a candidate or a party.
August 31st, 2010 | 1:39 pm
[...] rebuke has been approvingly reprinted everywhere from the conservative journal First Things to Relevant magazine, a publication for young evangelicals. It speaks to the distrust of Christian [...]
August 31st, 2010 | 3:17 pm
[...] that is really a very damning indictment of what Beck is doing. As Joe Carter correctly says, “As Moore notes, the problem isn’t really Beck. The problem is believers trading the true [...]
August 31st, 2010 | 3:19 pm
Mr. Carter discredits himself in his first few lines. In order to be a true evangelical, not just in calling oneself one, you would actually have to evangelize. If Mr. Carter has brought even one,in hearing distance of the word this week,
outside of a blathering blog,let alone 500,000, then I stand reprimanded and in awe.
August 31st, 2010 | 3:34 pm
david If Mr. Carter has brought even one,in hearing distance of the word this week, outside of a blathering blog,let alone 500,000, then I stand reprimanded and in awe.
The difference, sir, is that I’m interested in bringing people the “word” of the Gospel while you seem content to let them adopt Mormonism as long as it fits with a nationalist agenda.
August 31st, 2010 | 6:11 pm
Thanks, Mr. Carter. Please don’t back down from taking your stand. Just read John 10 earlier today. Seems Mr. Beck either needs to enter through the right door, or find the exit. I think the reason so many “sheeple” showed up on Saturday and lauded him as the nation’s new Evangelical American spokesman is that they spend far too much time listening to the “voice of strangers” than to the Shepherd’s voice (ie. My own know My voice). Certainly hope John 10:6 will not be true of our generation; though days like this past Saturday leave me firmly ensconced in doubt.
August 31st, 2010 | 7:45 pm
Something rubbed you the wrong way?? This man has people all over the country talking openly and proudly about patriotism and religion and all you see is the speck in his eye?
What do you want believers to do? Sit on their hands in a corner waiting for Mr. Perfect to arrive?
Beck may not be Mr. Perfect but who would you rather see driving the discussion of religion in public life – Beck or Hitchins and Dawkins?
God has been working through imperfect people for a long time. If He could work through someone as dreadful as Saul of Tarsus, I believe He can get some good use out of Glenn Beck as well.
And I am sick of the whining about Mormonism! I agree it is odd but it seems to me that Christians have dropped the ball on a lot of things in the past 50 years and we should be grateful that the Mormons have picked it up and are running with it. When we reach their level of growth and fervor then we can be critical.
August 31st, 2010 | 8:15 pm
And I am as big a fan of Archbishop Chaput as you are but comparing them is just apples vs oranges and is not helpful. I think they both have a role to play.
Besides, Beck addressed hundreds of thousands in the nation’s capital and is all over the TV. Archbishop Chaput addressed a few dozen cannon lawyers in Slovakia. (Raise your hand if you can find Slovakia on a map. Raise both hands if you have ever met a cannon lawyer!)
I thank God for both Beck and Archbishop Chaput and for the fact that it doesn’t have to be either/or.
August 31st, 2010 | 9:52 pm
I am so thankful that SOMEONE, even a Mormon, has brought God back into the picture! Why hasn’t anyone else done this? Did Glenn Beck do any miracles while he was there? Did he preach about his Mormonism? No! He did not. What about 1 Corinthians 13:13, “And now these three remain: faith, hope and love(charity). But the greatest of these is love.” Isn’t this what Glenn was asking us to do?
August 31st, 2010 | 9:59 pm
Right on,PEG!!! I agree with you whole heartedly! I am a born again Christian and I belong to a Southern Baptist Church, but Glenn Beck’s, “Restoring Honor” rally was exactly what our nation has been needing. He asked for a revival and yes, we need one. I pray everyday that more people will come to the saving knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. But I have only good things to say about Glenn Beck. He is one courageous American patriot!
September 1st, 2010 | 7:30 am
[...] when sung by black gospel singers and make it not only really white but really awful. …The Gospel and Glenn BeckFirst Things (blog)Glenn Beck in Washington: Preaching the gospel of Mammon and militarismWorld [...]
September 1st, 2010 | 11:43 am
[...] that is really a very damning indictment of what Beck is doing. As Joe Carter correctly says, “As Moore notes, the problem isn’t really Beck. The problem is believers trading the true [...]
September 1st, 2010 | 1:51 pm
I guess I just don’t see what is “scandalous” about the Beck event at the Lincoln Memorial (doesn’t “scandal” mean leading people into sin? At least that’s my understanding, as an orthodox Catholic, of the term). I could be wrong.
I’m not much of a Glenn Beck fan in general (mainly because of his often weepy and over-the-top manner), but I do admire him for pulling this event together and inspiring so many people to educate (or reeducate) themselves about American history and our Constitution.
I viewed the event as less of a “religious revival” than an instance in which one high profile American citizen stood up (and called for fellow citizens to be brave enough) to speak openly about God in the public square. That’s something that the founding fathers, Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. were perfectly comfortable doing, but it’s not at all common anymore. It’s also something in which practicing Christians, Jews and Mormons could find common ground (I find Beck’s Mormon faith to be somewhat irrelevant in these circumstances. He spoke about God that day, not about Joseph Smith or the angel Moroni, from what I heard).
Beck’s call for a “revival” seemed to be directed more toward patriotism and citizenship and it’s hard to find fault with that.
He’s not my cup of tea, but more power to him.
September 1st, 2010 | 3:02 pm
I’ve heard stories about Mormons trying to join with other faiths in fighting pornography, abortion and other social and political issues–only to be turned away by the other church groups with a No Mormons Need Apply.
Apparently, some people hate Mormons more than they hate abortion. I didn’t believe it before, but I guess Joe Carter proves it’s true.
Some people really would rather be anti-Mormon than anti-abortion or anti-pornography. Some of comments here prove that. What a sad waste of energy.
September 1st, 2010 | 3:22 pm
Sachiko I’ve heard stories about Mormons trying to join with other faiths in fighting pornography, abortion and other social and political issues–only to be turned away by the other church groups with a No Mormons Need Apply.
Really? Can you provide an example? Also, when you say “other church groups” are you saying that Mormons should be embraced as part of the historic, orthodox church?
Apparently, some people hate Mormons more than they hate abortion. I didn’t believe it before, but I guess Joe Carter proves it’s true.
Oh, good grief. What an idiotic comment. First of all, I don’t “hate” Mormons. For you to draw that implication shows that you don’t know much about me, or apparently, orthodox Christianity.
Second, you must have missed when Beck said that we have “bigger fish to fry” than abortion. Beck’s rally had nothing to do with the pro-life cause. My post didn’t mention abortion. I have no idea why you even bring it up.
I used to scoff when people claimed that Christians would willingly abandon gospel distinctive for political reasons. But this thread has shown me that it’s true. Beck wasn’t leading a political rally, he was leading a religious one. The problems is that his religious views are incompatible with the views of evangelicals and Catholics.
I’m honestly shocked at how gullible some Christians can be. Did it not seem strange to them that Beck would hold a religious, non-political rally at the National Mall in Washington, D.C.? Why not hold it in Omaha, Nebraska? The reason is that for Beck, Americans and Mormonism aren’t easily separable. When he speaks about the Constitution he is talking about what he believes is a divinely-inspired document. Beck’s views mix the theological and the political in such a way that they can’t be separated.
How does that not make Christians uncomfortable?
September 1st, 2010 | 4:04 pm
Shoot, Joe, I’m not pulling out the big guns for this.
I have read articles about Mormons attending interfaith events that were intended to be pro-life or against pornography, and being turned away by the members of other faiths present. I don’t have an actual link for you. You’ll just have to take my word on it–though I don’t think you’d need to, as you and plenty of others here have plenty of anti-Mormon invective to show it’s a realistic scenario.
After all, aren’t you, right now, turning Mormons away from engaging in political common cause?
I bring up abortion not because of Glenn Beck, but because it’s another area where my LDS faith influences my political leanings; I reckon that’s true for many, if not most pro-lifers. It’s another arena where getting somewhere politically, sometimes takes a backseat to interfaith squabbling.
I have no idea if YOU hate Mormons. (You just take potshots at a celebrity and blame it on his Mormonism).
When I said “some people”. I was referring to people who are more upset by Mormon doctrine and their physical proximity to it, than upset by, for example, abortion. Why spend precious time and energy
I don’t agree with Glenn Beck on many things–but, then, I do agree with him on many others. He’s filling an important role in the public eye. Who else will fill it?
I have started to get the impression, Mr. Carter, that you reflexively dislike almost any well-known Christian. This kind of attitude doesn’t really encourage Christian people to get up and moving, politically, knowing what kind of scorn awaits them among what should be their friends and brothers.
I’m not addressing Glenn Beck’s politics. What I’m commenting (badly and inarticulately–I hate to pull the “little kids are jumping on my lap” excuse, but it’s true) on is that what started out as a political comment degenerated into an anti-Mormon screed.
I’m Mormon. I’m more than willing to help support a good, moral, political common cause to redirect our country. I’d support a leader, LDS or non-LDS; I’d support you, even, Mr. Carter, if you were willing to get out of your armchair and really do something.
And I’d do it with a big, cheerful grin, and without holding my nose and talking about how you’re an okay leader, at least for those theocratic, gullible types, and despite your clearly wrong-headed understanding of Christian doctrine.
Seriously, though. So many people are stuck on the LDS thing. If you or someone else could be a leader, and without that LDS stigma, think of how many more people you could mobilize. I’d be willing to support that, too, because I’d rather move ahead and get some good works done than waste time making sure people know I’m doctrinally pure.
Mr. Carter, the problem isn’t that you’re going after Glenn Beck. I think Brother Beck can take care of himself, and I’m not concerning myself with a defense or anything.
It’s that this seems to have turned into you going after Mormons, and Mormon doctrine. It sounds like you *are* more worried about LDS doctrine than about current politics. Sheesh, do you gotta make it so personal?
I’m just grateful that in my town, I can work with my Evangelical and Catholic friends on community issues without this kind of wasteful rancor. I wish it were otherwise here online. Just think of the good we could get done.
September 1st, 2010 | 4:35 pm
When Beck proclaimed the rally to be “non-political,” it seems to me that he was talking in terms of political parties. He didn’t use the rally to boost specific Republican politicians (Srah Plain’s appearance notwithstanding) or to criticize the president or the Democrats. The concept of “honor” is non-political. Granted, the rally was conservative in tone and pushed conservative values (that’s a good thing, in my view).
But why is it relevant whether or not Beck considers the Constitution to be “divinely inspired?” If you think the Constitution is being disregarded and threatened on a regular basis these days (as I do), then promoting more education about the Constitution is a valuable goal, correct?
You don’t have to buy into Beck’s Mormon theology to appreciate some shared ideals regarding American citizenship.
That’s not being “gullible.” It’s just common sense.
September 1st, 2010 | 4:44 pm
Sachiko You’ll just have to take my word on it–though I don’t think you’d need to, as you and plenty of others here have plenty of anti-Mormon invective to show it’s a realistic scenario.
If you can show me actual evidence of Mormons being turned away from an interfaith event (one that is open to all faiths), then I will join you in condemning them.
After all, aren’t you, right now, turning Mormons away from engaging in political common cause?
No, I’m not. Perhaps you may have missed it, but Beck and his fanboys are claiming that the rally was non-political.
I’ve made no secret about my views on Beck. I think he is an embarrassment to the conservative movement. (And if I were a Mormon I’d be denouncing him even more vehemently.) I want to exclude him because I think he is an opportunist that is playing on all the suckers that are buying into his schtick.
I have absolutely no problem with any Mormons entering the public square and saying that because the Constitution is a divinely-inspired document that we owe religious fealty to it. Obviously, I disagree, but I don’t have a problem with it provided it is stated openly and honestly.
It’s another arena where getting somewhere politically, sometimes takes a backseat to interfaith squabbling.
I have never seen evidence of this. Can you show me an example of what you mean?
I have no idea if YOU hate Mormons. (You just take potshots at a celebrity and blame it on his Mormonism).
I most definitely do not hate Mormons. Some of my dearest friends are devout Mormons and they are some of the most generous, caring, upright people I know. My problem is not with Mormons or even Mormon doctrine. It is with Christians who embrace Mormon doctrines without understanding what they are doing.
When I said “some people”. I was referring to people who are more upset by Mormon doctrine and their physical proximity to it, than upset by, for example, abortion.
As Dr. Moore said, “I’m quite willing to work with Mormons on various issues, as citizens working for the common good.” I completely agree. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever known a conservative evangelical who would disagree with that.
He’s filling an important role in the public eye. Who else will fill it?
What important role is he filling? Chief Conservative Clown? They guy goes on TV and makes an embarrassment of conservatism every single day. Then one day he holds a rally in Washington and suddenly he’s our great leader?
I have started to get the impression, Mr. Carter, that you reflexively dislike almost any well-known Christian.
First of all, I don’t consider Beck a Christian. As much as a respect Mormons I’m not going to kowtow to political correctness by claiming that a group that denies key Christian doctrines is “Christian.” It shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone—especially not members of the LDS church—that Catholics and evangelicals do not consider them to be orthodox Christians.
Second, what “well-known Christian” have I said I disliked? What gave you that impression?
I’m not addressing Glenn Beck’s politics. What I’m commenting (badly and inarticulately–I hate to pull the “little kids are jumping on my lap” excuse, but it’s true) on is that what started out as a political comment degenerated into an anti-Mormon screed.
Again, let me clarify that I have no problem with the Mormon approach to politics. There are many ways in which we can find common cause to work together. But I cannot stand by silently when a Mormon entertainer attempts to become a religious leader for evangelical Christians.
I’m more than willing to help support a good, moral, political common cause to redirect our country.
Beck said it was not political. I understand why you would think so because Beck is being duplicitous. He doesn’t draw a distinction between religion and politics in the way that most orthodox Christians would. Perhaps he is just ignorant about other traditions and is unaware of this fact. But I suspect he knows what he is doing.
I’d support a leader, LDS or non-LDS;
So you’re saying you’d support a solid pro-life candidate like Mike Huckabee over a squishy, tell-people-what-they-want-to-hear Mormon candidate like Mitt Romney?
I’d support you, even, Mr. Carter, if you were willing to get out of your armchair and really do something.
How do you know what I am doing?
Also, why do people think that attending a rally (or even holding one) is “doing something”? It is not. It is political theater that makes people feel good about themselves and helps the promoters gain more fame. It does absolutely nothing to improve our country.
Seriously, though. So many people are stuck on the LDS thing. If you or someone else could be a leader, and without that LDS stigma, think of how many more people you could mobilize.
Like a good cobelligerent, I would rally behind a Mormon leader. But Beck is attempting to become a religious-political leader. And that I cannot get behind.
It’s that this seems to have turned into you going after Mormons, and Mormon doctrine. It sounds like you *are* more worried about LDS doctrine than about current politics. Sheesh, do you gotta make it so personal?
To be honest, I’m surprised more Mormons aren’t going after Beck. Many people have the impression that Mormons are willing to lie about or hide their views in order to advance politically. While I’m certain that most good Mormons are not doing that. Beck certainly is (just as Romney has done).
If a Christian leader were a dominionist and believed that homosexuals should be stoned, but hid that fact when he talked about “restoring just punishment” it would be an outrage. Those who he would be attempting to lead deserve to know what he truly believes so that they can understand his motives. The same is true with Beck. If he is being upfront about how his religious doctrine translates into political action, then I’d have no problem with him (only with the Christians who bought into it).
September 1st, 2010 | 6:18 pm
Joe – thanks for fighting the good fight – whether you’re doing it from an armchair or not. The voices of principled and eloquent Christian thinkers desperately need to be heard.
September 1st, 2010 | 6:52 pm
Okay, I’m asking this because I’m honestly curious, and not asking to be snarky–what do you consider to be “doing something”? I’m not trying to tell you you’re not doing anything, because all I know about you is from you write here.
That doesn’t mean you’re doing nothing, but based on the info I’ve gleaned, all I know about Joe Carter + politics is that you complain about how other people do it and don’t do so much of it yourself. If you are politically active and, forgive the cheese, striving to make a difference, please tell us about it. It would be a joy to hear about something positive and constructive like that.
If a Mormon were to say, “I believe we should support the Constitution because I believe it’s a document written by men who were in some way inspired by God” would you support that? (and, btw, I’ve never heard the Constitution be equated to the New Testament. It’s a pretty neat document, but it’s not holy writ. The Founding Fathers were great men to appreciate and follow, but not holy prophets.)
I would think that if a Mormon in politics were to say that, then it’s be pretty easy to wrongfully accuse that Mormon of theocratic intention. And that even those people who do honor the Constitution–evangelicals like Mike Huckabee and some of the people commenting here–would still refuse to support or work with that Mormon, because they’re Mormon.
What I hear from you is that Mormons in politics need to be honest and open about the doctrinal roots of their political beliefs, and that orthodox Christians need to be wary of Mormon false doctrine.
In other words, Mormon leaders need not apply. You sound like you’re using Mormon/not Mormon as a litmus test for basic political viability.
For all your wariness of civil religion, disagreeing with people because of their religion instead of their political beliefs seems more theocratic than evaluating each person for what they offer, regardless of belief.
I don’t know how this applies to Glenn Beck. I’m not his apologist.
But I am glad there is someone standing up and saying something, and if you can point us towards some good folks who are doing the same and better, please point them out. I’d love to hear them.
If you can think of some better political things for people to be doing than rallies and seeking more political education and involvement, please suggest them. I’d love to do them.
re: your dislike of Christian celebrities–I believe it was your Worst Christians list? I always wondered what it was that Kirk Cameron did to tick you off.
September 2nd, 2010 | 9:31 am
[...] noteworthy that both First Things and Relevant Magazine- Christian publications whose readers occupy different places along the [...]
September 3rd, 2010 | 12:31 am
Americans need to wake up the fact that Beck is simply another opinion pushing charlatan who is a product of mormon cult theology and he mixes this with his personal make up as a dry alcoholic. He does not possess a single ounce of journalistic integrity, has no college degree, has no qualifications and he is definitely not a true conservative. But then, what can anyone expect from someone who can’t find anything filthier than their own personal reflection. Since people like Beck cannot survive on the basis of any personal merits, they survive by puting others down with lies and half truths in order to feel good about themselves. The truth about Beck is that he a dry mormon alcoholic who never got the counseling required for alcholics. He flippantly throws around Christian terms like “God”, “Jesus”,”Holy Spirit” as well as voices of other so called “Spirit Powers” on his radio talk show. Beck is a mormon in active standing with the mormon church and is not a Christian. Mormonism teaches many gods, that the god of the earth was once a man who attained godhood status, there is no trinity, the cross of Christ means nothing and that Jesus Christ and Satan were brothers. Because Beck does not possess a single ounce of journalistic integrity, he is the perfect abortion poster child for Fox Network. The people who love what Beck says are no different than the impressionable sheep who loved every speech made by Adolph Hitler in his early years when he brought Germany into an era of economic prosperity These same sheep also blindly followed Hitler into one of the darkest chapters of world history. Beck and the Fox Network both cater to the same lowest common denominator of demagogery. Beck would not know the first thing about God as he is a mormon. Someone should ask him which of the many mormon gods he kept talking about during his argument with himself on Saturday on the square in DC. Like a typical dry alcoholic, Beck even lied on national television when he spoke about holding a document signed by George Washington. That event never took Place Unfortunately, people who love being led around by the nose do not realize that he is talking about a different god than that of Christianity, Judaism or Islam and that he has been a product of mormonism cultism from the day he started doing a radio talk show as an opinion pusher. You don’t have to have a degree in psychology to see that he exhibits all the signs of a dry alcoholic. The only reason this unstable impressionable idiot fell into mormonism was because the woman he wanted to have sex with a woman who would not do so unless they got first got married and from that point, they joined the mormon cult. Glenn Beck is as big a charlatan as Josephs Smith or the 5th grade graduate (Charles T Russel) who started the Jehovah’s Witness cult.
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