“Where we disagree we should try to put the best possible construction on the position of the other, while never trimming the truth,” wrote Fr. Neuhaus, “That will become more important as Mormons become more of a presence, both in this country and the world.”
I was reminded of Neuhaus’s wise words after some of the feedback I received on my posts about Glenn Beck and the recent “Restore Honor” rally. I realize I may not have been as far as I could be about the issue. While I have deep reservations about the significance and effects of the event, I wanted to be as fair as possible by highlighting a counterbalancing perspective.
Greg West, a Mormon activist, presents just such an opposing view—though not in the way you might expect. Like me, West thinks the rally was religious, rather than political and that one of the most substantial effects is that is makes Mormonism more palatable to Christians:
No matter what people tell you about Glenn Beck, he’s the real thing. He isn’t a put-on. He is a believer in God and in the American religion. That religion is the belief that all men are endowed by a Divine Creator with inalienable rights. It is a doctrine that transcends sectarianism and denomination. Beck’s program was very much a religious revival, not a political rally. He called together patriotic Americans from all over the United States. For a moment, he was able to reach across boundaries of race and creed and bring people together–and together, they cried out to God for mercy, forgiveness, and his assistance.
[. . .]
I believe that Glenn Beck’s desire, in some measure, was to create a “King Benjamin moment.” The Book of Mormon relates a landmark gathering of some of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas to hear the words of one King Benjamin. Benjamin declared principles of piety, humility, service, and faith to his people. He preached to them repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, who would be born in centuries to come, relative to his time. The result was a turning back to God by his audience that brought the Holy Spirit upon them. It was a moment of national renewal and personal recommitment to do good in God’s name. This was Beck’s template for the event that took place today.
As a Mormon, I have to consider an unintended message throughout Beck’s work, which has culminated in this event. That message is: “Mormons are Christian believers.” Despite nearly two centuries of misrepresentation and religious envy by sectarian Christianity, Beck has achieved the visibility, prominence, and has had the time day after day, week after week, to speak openly and truly about his core beliefs.
While I obviously disagree with West’s view that this is a laudatory shift (my views align with those expressed by Neuhaus in “Are Mormons Christian?“), I think he is absolutely correct that Beck is causing evangelicals and Catholics to think that Mormons are Christian believers.
While I am in favor of co-belligerency on social issues with all religious conservatives, I wonder if this type of religious rally is blurring the doctrinal and historical distinctives in a way that are detrimental to both faiths. After all, as Neuhaus notes, Mormons believe that non-Mormons who call themselves Christians are “members of ‘the great and abominable church’ that was built by frauds and impostors after the death of the first apostles.”
Am I wrong to be concerned? Should we set aside our core religious beliefs when advocating non-sectarian civil religion? Is that something any of us—evangelicals, Catholics, Mormons, Mainline Protestants—should be comfortable with?
(Link via: Gene Veith)
September 2nd, 2010 | 3:50 pm
I wonder if this type of religious rally is blurring the doctrinal and historical distinctives in a way that are detrimental to both faiths.
Certainly for those who have no foundation in their faith it will. There’s an old saying (forgive me, non-ecumenical, I know): Show me an uncatechized Catholic and I’ll show you a Protestant. The essential kernel in that saying is that those who are not taught will be like the seeds sown among rocks that withered as they sprang up.
September 2nd, 2010 | 4:42 pm
As the Catholic Church teaches, we should respect the truth God has revealed to those in other religions, but we should not respect error. While it’s true that many who are unformed in catechesis might begin to believe that doctrinal differences don’t matter (as we see lines in so many other areas of life being claimed as not mattering), it is hard to believe informed Christians (especially Catholics) could accept some of the truly anti-Christian elements of Mormonism (no belief in the Trinity, etc).
I continue to wonder, if Beck put half the amount of investigation into the truths of the history of Christianity as he has into the truths of the American founding, would he still be able to believe Mormonism is Christian?
September 2nd, 2010 | 6:52 pm
[...] not form a Triune God but are each separate and distinct gods. Mormons believe that there is …A Mormon Perspective on the Beck RallyFirst Things (blog)America's First Mormon TelevangelistReligion DispatchesWhy the [...]
September 2nd, 2010 | 6:52 pm
First black president, meet first mormon president.
September 2nd, 2010 | 7:11 pm
Didn’t David Mills have a thread about this last spring?
oh, yeah. Here it is: http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/04/14/is-mormonism-christianity/
There are some excellent points made on both sides.
If you scroll close to the end of the thread, you’ll find some replies by Daniel C. Peterson. He’s an LDS apologist and a smart cookie.
I can’t tell if you dislike the “we need to repent” message because of the message, or the faith of the messenger.
And I also can’t tell if you think Glenn Beck is a maverick that the LDS church should be worried about, or is someone following church doctrine, and that the LDS church is to blame for your discomfort.
Maybe you could enlighten me.
September 2nd, 2010 | 7:12 pm
good article, BTW. Nice of you to post it.
September 2nd, 2010 | 8:05 pm
Thank you for referencing Father Richard’s article. Fantastic article.
I believe Glenn Beck and Mit Romney are good Mormons. This means, as far as we know, they are good people. “The Founders” Beck constantly references, the American Christians of the 17 and 1800′s, and the most serious Christian theologians of modern times can all agree on one thing: Mormons aren’t Christians, and their insistance that we should come to accept their heresy is offensive.
September 2nd, 2010 | 8:36 pm
I am a devout Christian and also a devout Mormon. To me a Mormon is a Christian in the truest sense of the word. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints it the same church that Jesus Christ established during his ministry. It has been restored back to the earth. We have the same organization that existed in Christ’s time. We have twelve apostles, we send missionaries two by two to preach the gospel, we have the authority to perform ordinances by the power of God, etc. This priesthood authority is held by the lay people of the church not by an oppressive few church leaders. I am glad that I belong to this church and am a true Christian. People persecuted the early Christians and called them a peculiar people. It is not much different today.
September 2nd, 2010 | 8:50 pm
“. . . I am in favor of co-belligerency on social issues with all religious conservatives . . .”
But Mormons are welcome only if they keep a low profile, apparently.
No one mentioned this two years ago when the Mormons in California were giving heroically of their money and time to the Proposition 8 campaign, and suffering the brunt of public disapproval.
Your views hardly seem like the basis for healthy cooperation.
September 2nd, 2010 | 10:50 pm
I think Beck may have made a fatal error. I think many Christians were willing to follow him as a political figure and overlook his religion. I don’t think Catholics and mainline Protestants who know anything about Mormonism are going to be willing follow him as a Christian leader as long as he professes to be a Mormon.
September 3rd, 2010 | 1:11 am
It’s interesting to me that I can read First Things regularly and find little or nothing that I disagree with when the discussion deals with faith, hope, repentance, forgiveness, and the challenges and blessings of trying to emulate Christ in this world, until the discussion turns to whether or not followers of my faith are Christian.
I am quite sure that Beck linking arms with those who attend other churches, walking together as far as possible, is not going to be detrimental to the Mormon faith. It is what the Mormon faith teaches us to do.
September 3rd, 2010 | 4:13 am
This road, seems strangely familiar…
As someone who has many family members, and friends who are mormon, I can state, clearly, that mormons ARE christian. I also live in salt lake city, utah, and can point to the tolerant attitute, that the LDS church has toward non-mormons. It’s my hope that those of us, who are not LDS will show the same toleration.
September 3rd, 2010 | 4:17 am
Glenn always asks us to question with boldness.
All of you out there think and answer these questions.
1.Christ organized the Church when he lived here on earth what did that church look like? What kind of organization was it? Read Eph. 4:11-14 read it.
2. The true Church he organized must bear the name of Jesus Christ read Eph 5:23 Which Church out there bears his name?
3. The Church Christ organized must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets read Eph 2: 19-20. Where are his Apostles? Question with Boldness.
4. The True Church which Jesus organized must have the same organization as Christ’s Church
Read. Eph 4:11-14 Read it. Where is that Church? Seek it out. Question with Boldness
5. The True Church of Jesus Christ must claim divine authority. Read Hebrews 5: 4-10 Read it. Which Church in the world claims divine authority? Other than they get it form the Bible. Christ never said he got his authority from the Old Testament. Question with Boldness.
6. The True Church which Christ organized must have no paid ministry Read Isiah 45;13 and 1 Peter 5-2 Read it Question with Boldness
7. The True Church that Jesus organized taught baptism by immersion. That Baptism was necessary to enter his kingdom. Even He was baptized and he was perfect. He set the example. Who are the those authorized ministers who can do that? Read Matt 3-13-16 Read it question with Boldness. The true Church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands Read Act 8:14-17 Read it Question with Boldness. Who out there has the authority to do that?
8. The true Church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hand by one who has the authority from God. Not someone who says he has the authority from the Bible!
9. The true church must practice divine Healing. Read Mark 3:14-15 Read it Question with Boldness. What church professes to have this divine authority to heal the sick and afflicted? Question with Boldness
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals Read John 14: 11 and John 20-17. Is Jesus a ventriloquist. Is He praying to him self. Why would the voice of God be heard? and a dove descend representing the Holy Ghost. Question with Boldness!
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone Read Luke 24: 36- 39 and Act 1: 2-11.l What Church out there teaches this. Do you really believe that Jesus was resurrected form the Dead. Many of his disciples saw him they felt the wounds in his hands and feet. Were they feeling a ghost? Christ ate fish with his disciples. could a spirit eat? Does he still have his resurrected body or does he hang it on a hook some where? If you truly believe he was resurrected from the dead, then a logical thinking human being has to have common sense that he still does have a body of flesh and bone. Were all his apostles lying when they saw him and felt his wounds in his hands and feet, and they saw him as-send into heaven. Question with Boldness!
12. The officers must be called by God through revelation Read Heb 5: 4 , Exodus 28: 1 , Exodus 40:13-16 What Church out there professes divine revelation from God to call the officer to work in the ministry? Question With Boldness!
13. The true church must claim revelation from God. Read Amos 3:7 Surely God will only reveal his secrets to his servant the Prophets.
Where are the Prophets for our day? We live in the most wicked and chaotic time in the world’s history. Just look at the daily new papers. Does not God love us today to give us instruction for our day?
14. The true Church of Jesus Christ must be a missionary church. Read Matt 28:19-20 Didn’t
Christ send his Apostles to teach and preach his gospel. Did he not say the gospel should go to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. How is that to take please if there are no missionaries? Read it. Question with Boldness.
15. The true Church must be a restored church. Read Acts 3:19-20 How could his true church still be here in it’s ancient and perfect form if all his leaders and apostles were killed. and many if not all the original members were killed by the Romans. The authority was taken away. It’s only common scene. Question this with Boldness! Seek it out Read.
16 The true church must practice baptism for the dead read 1 Cor 15-16 and 29. Would not a loving God give all his children equal importunity to receive all the blessings of his kingdom. Obviously during Christ’s time they practiced Baptism for the Dead. What Church practices baptism for the dead? Question with Boldness.
17. By their fruits ye shall know them read Matt 7:20
18. Why are all these thing important? Read Hebrews 13:8 Search it out. Study it out for your self. Question with Boldness the very existence of God. Question which church out there fits exactly the church Jesus established
anciently. Where is it? It’s out there but you have got to search it out for your self. You have go to get involved and read, search and pray. You can find the Truth. God does love us.
September 3rd, 2010 | 8:50 am
Its unfortunate Mormons, and some of their friends, seem to think its “intolerant” for others to say they aren’t Christians (they insult Catholics quit a bit.) I respect Hindu’s, Buddhists, Jews, Mormons, etc. and recognize the truths that their various faiths share with Christianity. While they don’t possess the fulness of truth, they certainly aren’t being insulted. Its not that we aren’t being nice or mean, or even intolerant. I watched Mr. Beck’s testimony and heard alot of “nice feelings” stuff. “Nice feeling” and “nice people” can exist in any faith tradition.
The question here is truth. The LDS Church has worked hard, and spent an amazing amount of money to delete chunks of its history, and alter its own theology over time…and even now, their own theology sets them outside of authentic Christianity. To say its the “True Church” shows a determination to ignore history, theology, and the rational arguments of its detractors that can’t be healthy. We hear you, “we all got it wrong for nearly 1900 years” (which doesn’t mesh with Matthews Gospel,etc.), then Joseph Smith found Golden Tablets and all of you are the “Real Church.” We understand your proposition better than you may imagine…just can’t agree with you.
September 3rd, 2010 | 9:05 am
If we are talking about something more than a useful taxonomy for the study of comparative religion, then there is a danger of falling into tautology: “The true church is that which teaches the true faith” and “The true faith is what the true church teaches.”
One can, of course, try to set up an explicitly doctrinal test – “The true faith is contained in the three catholic creeds,” or “The true faith is that Jesus Christ is Lord,” although, if anyone objects that one’s chosen formula is too inclusive/exclusive, it is difficult to discover grounds on which to refute them.
Now, it is perfectly possible to avoid the question-begging assumption of defining Christians by examining their tenets, or the Church by its teaching. After all, the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which stands in pride of place at the beginning of the Codex of Justinian, did so very neatly, by referring to “that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness.”
Not only does it avoid the vice of circularity, but, suitably updated to refer to living authorities, it is remarkably easy of application; just what one would expect of the criterion of a divine message, intended for all, regardless of learning, capacity or circumstances.
September 3rd, 2010 | 11:14 am
Josh,
I strongly disagree with your characterization of the “Founders” Beck constantly refers to. Yes, there were a great deal of “Christians” back then in the traditional historical sense of the term (i.e., the theologians charged with keeping the churches “officially” orthodox in their beliefs and the church members who followed accordingly).
However, the “Founding Fathers” — the men featured on US Currency, etc. — would flunk the “historical orthodox” test for “Christian” just as Mormons do.
For instance, this quote from John Adams bitterly mocking Christ’s Incarnation:
“An incarnate God!!! An eternal, self-existent, omnipresent omniscient Author of this stupendous Universe, suffering on a Cross!!! My Soul starts with horror, at the Idea, and it has stupified the Christian World. It has been the Source of almost all of the Corruptions of Christianity.”
– John Adams to John Quincy Adams, March 28, 1816.
September 3rd, 2010 | 3:55 pm
Mr. Joe Carter is asking whether Catholics should set aside their core beliefs when advocating non-sectarian civil religion. I think he seriously misunderstands what Glenn Beck is trying to achieve. I doubt whether he watches Beck on Fox often enough to be sufficiently informed to criticize.
Besides Hannity, and a few other Fox personalities, Beck is the only one who dared to expose what is really going on in America. He is not a theologian, and he doesn’t claim to be one. He describes himself as an ordinary common-sense cup-cake eating American who is seeking answers to deeply troubling questions that affect not only Americans, but the whole world and the whole Western Civilization.
The “good” Catholics contributing to the First Things and to this blog better wake up to what is happening. Yes, there is the theological issue whether the Mormons are Christians, and the Vatican theologians have spoken. That does not obliterate the simple fact that the Mormons, despite their confused theology, are among the most decent people in America, more decent and less confused than many Catholics in many respects.
If you doubt this, please read the new book “Radical: A Portrait of Saul Alinsky” by Nicholas von Hoffman, which, among other things, has exposed the close association of progressive community organizing with the certain segment of the Catholic Church in America, some confused or even bad priests who lost faith in God, with tenacles reaching as far as the Vatican, where Saul Alinsky got a blessing from pope Pius XII during an arranged audience. In case you don’t know, Alinsky dedicated his famous book Rules for Radicals to Lucifer, who was the first Radical.
September 5th, 2010 | 11:41 am
Jon Rowe & Friends:
I didn’t contend that “The Founders” would be called “orthodox” in their views. I inferred that they, as one group among others that I listed, would be very critical of Mormonism (had it even existed then… which is another issue.) Your quote from Adams is just one of the volumes of quotes from founders that characterizes their “deism” or “unitarianism”, however you best wish to characterize it. What would they have to say about Joseph Smith’s claims when many of them discounted basic Christian tenants like “The Trinity”. Ouch!
“The Founders” were being informed by a backlash to the First Great Awakening where many of the popular fundamentalist, American evangelical based views first began (roaming preachers, unlettered pastors, emotion dominating reason, etc.) Their reaction was to remove any doctrine that was inherently supernatural, as they sought a faith that could be wholly explained through reason. Remember, they also lived in the wake of the Puritan/Congregationalist beginnings of the colonies that were sometimes so intolerant that a King of England actually sent orders for them to stop killing each other over religious differences (hanging Quakers, burning witches… the King was fine with hatred for “papists” however, etc.)
I submit that, when faced with stories of Joseph Smith finding tablets, his polygamy, Gods biblical work being extended to the Americas nearly two millenia after His death, Native Americans being a lost tribe of Israel, his translation of “the book of Abraham” which he thought was written by Abraham on Egyptian papyri (which of course was a hoax), not one solitary place, person, or event in The Book of Mormon ever being seen as real by any objective person, I could GO ON and ON. “The Founders” very simply would have reacted to these claims as Smith’s own contemporaries did: by wondering who in the world could take this seriously? Actually one Pastor from Smiths region specifically recognized it as a collection of some popular myths and heresies being thrown around at the time, and later observers even recognized some of the fantasy stories as plagiarism of some other publicly shared stories. (In short, Smith has much in common with Muhammad in this regard, as founder of a new religion by twisting already existing theology and myth that, of course, he alone has had given to him by God and he is in charge of.)
Finally, can Mormons admit one thing: Its your theology that has set you in opposition to 1 in 3 people on Earth: those who use, however loosely, the title “Christian” to describe their religious views. The LDS official position is that WE are apostates, or members of “the great abominable church”, etc. So as you continue to make Mormonism a fully experiential faith were no one needs to know about your unbelievable theology, try dulling the position that WE are abominable. After all, what would your claims be fused to if not for us apostates bringing Christs Gospel through 2000 years (Thank goodness you haven’t tried leaching onto Islam, as I doubt their reaction would be as charitable.)
Forgive the tone. I honestly wish for Christ’s truth to shine through and hope that all Christians can clearly point to Him, and His authentic Church, not ourselves and our tribes.
September 17th, 2010 | 2:48 am
Here’s the thing about Mormons:
1. I could potentially be wrong and a Mormon right.
2. If I am right and a Mormon wrong, my being insufferable about it isn’t going to convert him.
3. I have had it up to here getting what atheists dish out to “fundies”. I have no intention to pass that on to Mormons.
4. Mormons are decent, honorable people who work hard, love their country and families, and don’t think that liberty is a synonym for lust and infanticide.
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