The inexcusable murder of George Tiller, the controversial Kansas doctor who performed late term abortions, got me to thinking about one of my biggest heroes, the great abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison. Pro lifers believe that their cause is a great civil rights issue. Abolition was no less so. Garrison’s genius was his eloquent and unyielding condemnation of that great evil. This is perhaps Garrison’s most famous quote, a favorite of mine that I sometimes use to close my speeches. From the opening editorial of The Liberator, January 1, 1831:
I am aware, that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or speak, or write, with moderation. No! no! Tell a man whose house is on fire, to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hand of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; — but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest — I will not equivocate — I will not excuse — I will not retreat a single inch — AND I WILL BE HEARD.
But, he was also unequivocal in eschewing violence in the cause of overcoming this profound injustice. Thus, the December 4, 1833 constitution of the American Anti Slavery Society declares:
This Society shall aim to elevate the character and condition of the people of color, by encouraging their intellectual, moral, and religious improvement, and by removing public prejudice, that thus they may, according to their intellectual and moral worth, share an equality with the whites, of civil and religious privileges; but this Society will never, in any way, countenance the oppressed in vindicating their rights by resorting to physical force.
Most people, whatever their views on abortion’s legality, view late term abortion as an odious wrong. Murdering its most notable practitioner was no less odious in that it not only took human life, but if it was motivated by the abortion issue, it was vigilantism of the worst kind. Let no one justify this terrible crime
May 31st, 2009 | 10:15 pm
History Writer: This is an awful crime, regardless of one’s beliefs about abortion.
The pro life people I know are totally opposed to violence, as were the abolitionists.
But this kind of atrocity makes reasoned democratic debate very difficult. Going back to the abolition era: John Brown’s terrorism, which is what this shooting was too, made any chance of a peaceful transition away from slavery all but impossible. The South jumped on the Harpers Ferry raid to tarnish all who opposed slavery–even non abolitinist anti slave leaders like Seward (for his “irrepressible conflict” comment) and the ever moderate Lincoln (for his “house divided” speech). Because of Brown’s courage in the face of hanging, he then became something of a Northern martyr. I worry that we are moving toward the same implacable cultural differences across a number of issues, some of which I engage, and others of which I do not.
I am very worried about comity in this country on many levels.
May 31st, 2009 | 10:56 pm
Wesley: I’d like to believe you’re sincere in your denunciation of Dr. Tiller’s murder. I’m sure you are, but the so-called right-to-life crowd said pretty much the same thing when Paul Hill murdered Dr. John Britton and his clinic escort, James Barrett in Pensacola back in 1994. In fact, they’re falling all over themselves right now in the rush to deliver pious platitudes about the sanctity of everybody’s life — even the lives of people they’re obviously glad to see dead. They’re using many of the same words: “unjustified” and “inexcusable.” And they’re no doubt snickering to themselves as they offer their condolences to the Tiller family: “finally got that SOB, didn’t we?” Last year a fundamentalist shot up a Unitarian church in Tennessee because he didn’t like its liberal position on social issues. He shot two people to death, and the right-to-lifers offered the same platitudes then, too. And, as usual, they refused to take responsibility for the results of the hatred they’re fomenting. Wesley, I mourn for America more than for Dr. Tiller. We have, at long last, reached a point at which political opposition has degenerated into a poisonous mix of vilification and assassination. The lights are beginning to dim on our way of life, and people who believe actions such as today’s are helping to maintain “traditional American values” are the ones who are dimming them. Is this the way America ends, in the same kind of internal strife that has Sunnis and Shiites at each other’s throats? I’m seriously considering moving to Europe.
June 1st, 2009 | 10:20 am
HistoryWriter,
Is there a specific reason you brought up the church shooting without bringing up others that were wrought by anti-Christian bigots? In any case…
I agree with you, Wesley. The action was unjustified, illegal, immoral, [the list continues]. However, I will shed no tears over this man’s death. Most murder cases elicit even a small bit of compassion from me, but I just can’t summon an ounce for Tiller. I also cannot summon any for his church, who blatantly allowed such an individual to be in a position of community authority.
June 1st, 2009 | 12:21 pm
I’ve often seen parallels between the radical anti-abortion fringe and the fringe of the animal rights movement. In fact Jerry Vlasak (and others) of the Animal Liberation Front have posited that assassinating a few animal researchers would effectively end animal research and testing. For one thing, I hope they’ll see that these assassinations have NOT ended abortion, and if anything have strengthened the resolve of those that support abortion rights, and would likely have the same counterproductive effect if ALF managed to find somebody crazy enough to do it.
For another thing, I do accept the sincerity of the anti-abortion folks who condemn this, but I’d be more convinced if they would proactively help in the apprehension and punishment of the shooters. Tiller’s murderer was apparently caught, but the Atlanta Olympic bomber stayed at large for several years, presumably because he was fed and sheltered by a network of pro-lifers. The act of aiding and abetting a terrorist belies and undermines their public statements.
June 1st, 2009 | 12:26 pm
How big off SHS to come out and condemn the radical action of the Pro-Life assassination movement while turning around and immediately euphemizing the Pro-Choice victim as some kind of vanquished Slave Master.
Aligning the Pro-life movement with Abolitionists at a time like this is crass nonsense! Booo!!!
June 1st, 2009 | 3:45 pm
Becky: If you can cite an example of a Unitarian bigot shooting up a fundamentalist church because he disagreed with its theology, I’ll be happy to discuss the matter.
I see you make no reference to other vigilantes such as Paul Hill, John Burt, Michael Griffin and Charles Kopp, all of whom committed murder in the name of “life.” Do you have no comment to make about these “pro-life heroes.” There have been more than twenty murders and attempted murders perpetrated by “pro-life” vigilantes since 1983, and each and every time the movement has responded with the same platitudes — and then continued whipping up the psychotic malcontents in their ranks.
I’m glad, however, you’re honest enough to state that you have no sympathy for Tiller — even if you stopped short of expressing delight. Those pious denials we’ve been hearing from the pro-life crowd since yesterday tax one’s credibility.
June 1st, 2009 | 4:10 pm
HW-as to your reply to Becky-There is a difference between feeling sympathy for Tiller and feeling that murder is unjustified. There are always a lot of complicated feelings when someone for whom one felt great antipathy dies. Many of us in the disability rights community felt similarly when Ron Cranford, who often testified on behalf of dehydrating cognitively disabled people to death, died of cancer. We were sad that he was dead but we were glad he wasn’t around to do any more testifying. Becky does not need to feel sympathy for Tiller in order to deplore his murder. I do feel some sympathy for Tiller in that he honestly felt that he was doing the right thing, which is tragic for everyone involved. All the pro life people that I know were praying for his change of heart, not for his murder.
June 1st, 2009 | 9:57 pm
SAFEpres: You said: “We were sad that [Ron Cranford] was dead but we were glad he wasn’t around to do any more testifying.” I can understand and respect that. On the other hand, a number of people in the pro-life camp continuously portrayed Tiller as a mass murderer, and kept pounding out the message: “he has to be stopped.” They continued the message even after he was wounded by an assailant and his clinic bombed. Are you surprised that some psychopath finally killed him? Do you believe these same pro-lifers can escape moral responsibility for the result of their message simply by deploring it? Any of them with even rudimentary consciences should feel shame for the result of their rhetoric, but I believe they’ll rationalize it away with “at least he’s not killing babies any more” or some similar tripe.
June 1st, 2009 | 10:52 pm
HistoryWriter: “There have been more than twenty murders and attempted murders perpetrated by ‘pro-life’ vigilantes since 1983, and each and every time the movement has responded with the same platitudes — and then continued whipping up the psychotic malcontents in their ranks.”
By “whipping up the psychotic malcontents in their ranks,” you wouldn’t happen to mean “calling a duck a duck,” would you? Abortion ends a human being’s life. That some loop-job with a 12-gauge and a vendetta will now face a murder trial doesn’t alter scientific fact.
DarkSwan, get some sleep.
June 1st, 2009 | 10:53 pm
HistoryWriter: I’d like to correct you, since I live in East Tennessee and my aunt is a sometime attender of the Unitarian Church where the shooting occurred. The shooter came looking for his ex-wife and was not to my knowledge attending any particular church, fundamentalist or otherwise, at the time the shootings occurred. What he didn’t like about the church was that his wife found encouragement to leave there. If that’s social liberalism, then I guess social liberalism is what he didn’t like, but really, it was a very personally motivated incident that could have happened anywhere she received the advice to leave her marriage.
The condolences we offered then were not “platitudes”, but heartfelt sorrow at the loss of life, painfully close to home. Please don’t judge our community by the national news. We deserve better than that….and so do the folks who are offering their condolences to the Tiller family now. You can’t know the motives of every person you see or hear on the news, no matter what group or position they are representing.
I’m sure there are folks who foment hatred for abortionists. They are, in my opinion, just as sinful as the abortionists. God is about attracting people to Himself with love beyond measure and without condition; not about hating or scaring people out of their sin. As grandmothers around here are fond of saying, “Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still.”
June 2nd, 2009 | 3:08 am
Ultimately, I think that compassion is the bottom line in terms of morality. If we have compassion, than we are able to extend that to all people, and that shuts down violence.
June 2nd, 2009 | 8:05 am
Wesley: You wrote:”People who might never seriously pursue killing themselves in a suicide unfriendly atmosphere, are validated in their desire to die when assisted suicide is vigorously promoted and/or approved via friendly media stories about actual deaths.” That sounds like a fairly reasonable assessment of advocacy in general, be it advocacy for good ends or for ill.
This is speculative, but I wonder with respect to the Tiller affair if you believe that the more strident members of the pro-life community bear any responsibility at all, moral or other, for the result of their messages? As an attorney, do you think that, given the history of attacks on abortion providers, the inflammatory character of some (not all, but SOME) of those messages might cause the hypothetical “reasonable person” to find some degree of culpability there?
Remember Cato and “Carthage must be destroyed”? Seems to me if someone makes a loud enough statement often enough, he/she oughtn’t be surprised when someone follows up on it.
Seriously, though, what is your feeling about moral culpability in the Tiller case?
June 2nd, 2009 | 9:21 am
What major pro-life organization was calling for violence against Dr. Tiller? By your own reasoning and given Wesley’s example above, William Lloyd Garrison is responsible for John Brown’s raid. Can we not say things we see as gravely immoral need to stopped? Should we just let people do whatever they want?
Can you really say I have moral culpability for a murder because I said Dr. Tiller should be prosecuted for any illegal acts or I hope his business is shut down or stopped? Anyone who said “kill Dr. Tiller” has some culpability, anyone who never said that does not (which includes the vast majority of pro-lifers).
To turn it around, should Jodie Foster have been held responsible for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan? Should the Libertarian Party be held responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing? Is the Democratic Party at fault for all the 1960s unrest?
June 2nd, 2009 | 9:24 am
History Writer: First, I think this is all speculation because we don’t know why this man allegedly shot Dr. Tiller. Assuming he did it, or that it was because of the late term abortions (that is a pretty safe bet), the pro life movement as a whole bears no responsibility. One reason I brought up Garrison, as Just Chris noted, was that in a democracy, we have to be allowed to be blunt and powerful in our advocacy. That’s what democracy is all about. Garrison was not responsible for Harper’s Ferry. John Brown was.
Now, if we find after the facts that he was incluenced by one of the extreme sites, such as the wanted poster Web sites, I think that those kinds of things could bring moral responsibility. But we don’t know now. I suspect this guy was unhinged to begin with and blew when Tiller was acquitted of the illegalities recently.
No excuses for the crime. But also no collective guilt.
June 2nd, 2009 | 12:44 pm
“To turn it around, should Jodie Foster have been held responsible for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan? Should the Libertarian Party be held responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing? Is the Democratic Party at fault for all the 1960s unrest?”
Or…for a newer example: should the entire anti-war movement be held responsible for the killing of a U.S. soldier at a recruitment center in Arkansas?
June 2nd, 2009 | 1:00 pm
I do not live anywhere near Kansas. If I did and had information leading to the man’s arrest, I would gladly have offered it up; he has unfairly smeared the good names of myself and every other pro-lifer I know personally.
June 2nd, 2009 | 6:19 pm
HW -
My question for you is, how can those of us who are pro-life and anti-violence turn in people who perpetuate violence in the name of our cause when most of us haven’t got the foggiest idea who those folks might be?
Where I live, our goal is education, delivering diapers to the Gabriel Project, paying for unwed mother’s schooling and providing safe housing to them, paying for first year immunization for their babies, providing food for their households (my parish alone gives out forty bags of groceries every week, to people in our area), providing information for caring for special needs children, or helping special needs children be placed in local homes (one of our parishoners currently has three children – one Downs Syndrome boy, one girl with PPD, which is a form of autism, and one AIDS baby), helping their mothers find jobs and/or finish school, giving counciling to the moms and their parents, providing parenting classes to the mothers and fathers…
You know. All those things that we’re accused of not doing despite our desire to keep babies alive. (It always makes my teeth ache when I hear that sour, regurgitated line, “Pro-lifers only care about letting babies be born, but don’t give a **** about them after that!”)
We really don’t have a whole lot of time to socialize with psychopathic misanthropes who look for some reason to justify their violence.
So, no, you won’t see me turning in a violent pro-life murderer; I don’t know any, and there never have been any in my area, but I see one, I’ll let you know.
June 3rd, 2009 | 6:26 am
I have to ask… If you had to choose between this man dying a mostly pain-free death, or thousands of nearly full-term babies suffering and dying – which would you pick? Of course, we want to be able to say “I don’t want anyone to have to die” but in this case, the choice has to be made, as there is no non-violent way to stop his violent actions.
Yeah, you can say let’s get the message out there that killing babies who are inches away from taking their first breath is wrong, and you can fight the laws that allow such an atrosity to continue, but while you’re doing that babies are being violently killed.
Just to give a little background on myself: I am pro-choice. I will always fight for a woman’s right to birth control, and to an early elective abortion. I want to emphasize EARLY. I will also fight for a woman’s right, when during the second trimester (when an ultrasound & AFP test are routinely performed) the woman finds out that the child she is carrying is severely malformed. I’m talking about malformations that most people who do not work in the medical field have never encountered and likely never will. Is there ever a justification for a third trimester abortion? Even women who find that the child has died in-utero do not have abortions at clinics such as the one Tiller was running. They are induced, and the baby is stillborn.
What kind of a doctor performs third trimester abortions? The kind that delights in the violent murdering of tiny children.
Just to be clear: I am not happy that Tiller was killed, but I am relieved that he’s no longer here.
June 3rd, 2009 | 10:49 am
Here’s a few examples of Pro-Life Terrorism for you fine.
Now can you provide any examples of pro-choice zealots killing any pro-life leaders?
Anyone? Anywhere? Anytime?
Apparently the ‘culture of death’ stems from your absolute desire to determine other peoples value systems. Maybe you didn’t kill Tiller personally, but your fanaticism feeds the fascism of your ilk.
By The Associated Press – 2 days ago
A look at recent cases of abortion-related violence:
_ May 31, 2009: Prominent late-term abortion provider George Tiller is shot and killed in a Wichita church where he was serving as an usher. The gunman fled but a city official said a suspect is in custody.
_ April 2007: Authorities say Paul Ross Evans placed a homemade bomb in the parking lot of the Austin Women’s Health Center in Texas. A bomb squad disposes of the device, which contained two pounds of nails. There are no injuries.
_ Oct. 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian is fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. Militant abortion opponent James Kopp is convicted of the murder in 2003 and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.
_ Jan. 29, 1998: A bomb explodes just outside a Birmingham, Ala., abortion clinic, killing a police officer and wounding several others. Eric Rudolph later pleads guilty to that incident and the deadly bombing at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. He justifies the Alabama bombing in an essay from prison, writing that Jesus would condone “militant action in defense of the innocent.”
_ Jan. 16, 1997: Two bomb blasts an hour apart rock an Atlanta building containing an abortion clinic. Seven people are injured. Rudolph is charged by federal authorities in October 1998.
_ Dec. 30, 1994: John Salvi opens fire with a rifle inside two Boston-area abortion clinics, killing two receptionists and wounding five others. Sentenced to life without parole, he kills himself in prison in 1996.
_ Nov. 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis, who performs abortions in Vancouver, Canada, is shot in the leg while eating breakfast at home.
_ July 29, 1994: Dr. John Bayard Britton and his volunteer escort, James H. Barrett, are slain outside a Pensacola, Fla., abortion clinic. Barrett’s wife, June, is wounded in the attack. Paul J. Hill, 40, a former minister and anti-abortion activist, is later convicted of murder and sentenced to death.
_ Aug. 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller is shot in the arms as he drives out of parking lot at his Wichita, Kan., clinic. Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon is later convicted and sentenced to 11 years in prison.
June 3rd, 2009 | 11:32 am
In the weeks preceding the Tiller Assassination the hellhounds of the Pro-life movement were on Tiller’s trail. They smelled blood and wanted to achieve a perceived justice for the pro-life movement.
Here is one prime example.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=468430
A Kansas jury has found notorious abortionist, George Tiller, not guilty on all counts.
Tiller faced 19 misdemeanor charges that accused him of violating state laws involving late-term abortions. Cheryl Sullinger of Operation Rescue tells OneNewsNow they were disappointed with the verdict.
A Kansas jury has found notorious abortionist, George Tiller, not guilty on all counts.
“We have a number of other projects, and we believe that there’s [sic] plenty of things that Tiller has done that violated the law that eventually, we’re just going to keep pressing on until we finally get justice” said Sullinger.
On its Web site, Operation Rescue referred to Tiller as a “monster” who has “been able to get away with murder.” And Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry called Tiller “a mass murderer.”
Well it turns out the Tiller’s Killer was active member of the Operation Rescue online blog community that discussed this issue. Just like your a reader or contributor of this site.
To this Operation Rescue takes no responsibility for providing a forum that contributed to the mindset of the killer by posting on the front page of their site.
“Scott Roeder has never been a member, contributor, or volunteer with Operation Rescue. Mr. Roeder may have posted to our open blog web site, as have thousands of members of the public, including those with pro-abortion views, but he is not affiliated with this organization.”
He just posted many comments and was influenced by the site. As if most of you aren’t ‘affiliated’ with Secondhand Smoke either when you comment on blogs. Either that or Operation Rescue is failing to take responsibility for its own culture.
June 3rd, 2009 | 11:50 am
HistoryWriter wrote: ‘And they’re no doubt snickering to themselves as they offer their condolences to the Tiller family: “finally got that SOB, didn’t we?”’
Just how has History Writer obtained this inside knowledge? I believe the fallacy is known as “poisoning the well” — attributing ill intentions to those who disagree with his own views.
June 3rd, 2009 | 11:56 am
I believe the fallacy is known as “poisoning the well” — attributing ill intentions to those who disagree with you.
Whether it’s referring to those who hold pro-life views as “hell hounds” or claiming to know that people who have denounced the murder of Dr. Tiller are “snickering to themselves”, this tactic is so obvious it would not pass muster with an eighth grade debating team.
June 3rd, 2009 | 11:57 am
Sorry for the (almost) double post!
June 3rd, 2009 | 12:05 pm
Nine examples of abortion-related violence over a span of thirteen years? Not exactly a crime wave. The incidents are deplorable and the perpetrators deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. But if this is evidence of an organized effort, well, then I am Angelina Jolie.
June 3rd, 2009 | 2:32 pm
Dark Swan:
First, please, call me Tabs. Everyone else does; no need to be formal. :-)
Second:
1) Pastor Liang Yage’s wife was forced to abort their baby seven months into her pregnancy.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9766870
2) Many women face a “perfect storm” of coercive forces: disinformation, significant threats, expert deception or even blackmail and personal pressure that can escalate to violence (the #1 killer of pregnant women5) … all working in concert at a time when they most need a helping hand.
the UnChoice …
“They said I made the right decision … but I was never given a choice.”
http://www.unfairchoice.info/Coerced.htm
3) The cases of a Maine couple charged with abducting their pregnant daughter in an attempt to force her to have an abortion and a Georgia woman accused of forcing her pregnant daughter to drink turpentine are just part of an epidemic of coerced and forced abortions in the U.S., a leading researcher says.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/sep/06092902.html
4) Elliot Institute spokesperson Amy Solby tells OneNewsNow that one study found 64 percent of women who had abortions reported they felt pressured to abort by others. “Something like 80 percent of them said that they didn’t get the counseling they needed to make a good decision, that often they were not given counseling at all, or that the counseling they had was inadequate,” she explains.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=378732
Now, my point is, you’re showing some horrible things about what some so-called “pro-lifers” have done over the years. Here are some things that pro-choicers have done over the years.
The only difference between the murders that the extremist “pro-lifers” committed and the incidents listed on those web pages, is that one set of crimes was perpetuated against grown adults, while the other set was perpetuated against babies still in the womb. Of course, in the case of forced abortions, the crime is also committed against the mother, but she survives the abortion. Usually.
How is the violence of a forced abortion any different from the violence of an abortion center being blown up?
Well, first of all, it’s personal, rather than public. Second, it generally affects only two people – the mother and the baby – whereas a bomb or a shooting generally kills lots of people. Third, many families keep hush about abortions, particularly forced abortions, whereas news about a shooting is plastered all over the place.
Both are horrid and both should be delt with to the fullest extent of the law. However, one is supposedly more horrible because it kills adult humans that people see out in the streets and who pay their taxes and talk about golf. The other just kills a baby hidden in the womb and emotionally scars the mother. So, one is permissible, while the other one isn’t.
There is nothing about the above listed cases of forced abortion that is less violent or cruel or heartless than the cold blooded murder of that doctor. *Nothing.*
Meaning that any decent person who is *really* pro-life will be as disgusted by the murder of Tiller as they are by the abortions we’re trying to prevent. Stop sticking us all in the same category. If you can’t learn to discriminate between people’s intent, then you have no business getting involved in the debate.
One last thing – a lot of people talk about how the “religious right” is responsible for death and destruction, while pro-choice, atheist, sensible, sober people don’t engage in murder, violence, etc. It’s mostly carried out by the religious extremists.
Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were a pair of serial killers who raped, mutilated, and murdered young children. Myra had been a devout Catholic before metting Ian, but Ian convinced her there was no God. Incidentally, it was after all this that they started in with the murders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myra_Hindley
I don’t really care about her religion or lack there of. She and her lover were monsters (Ian is still alive in prison, I think, but I know Myra’s dead), and it wouldn’t matter if she was Christian, atheist, or something else.
The only thing I’m getting at is, don’t be all self-righteous screaming about how horrible we Catholics (and other Christians) are, and how all the horrible things in the world are done only by us. There are plenty of bad people from all walks of life, all kinds of religions, all kinds of belief concerning pro-life or pro-abortion, etc. Some people are good, some are bad. If you start assuming that all people from one walk of life are bad, you end up no better than the people you’re hating on.
June 4th, 2009 | 10:23 am
Nine examples of abortion-related violence over a span of thirteen years?
You seem quite comfortable with that, says a lot about the supposed culture of life you imbue. Paying some lip service about how bad it is after shrugging off 9 attacks belies the truth of your undertone of
…what 9 cases of domestic terrorism in 13 years… doesn’t sound that bad to me, hardly a problem here…Im freaking Brad Pitt la di daa.
But if this is evidence of an organized effort
Don’t create an argument no one posed. Its the culture of ethical fanaticism towards these doctors who are doing their jobs, in a perfectly law abiding way, that leads to the domestic terror and assassination that has become frequent in the pro-life culture.
Take responsibility for your own neighborhood before you come into mine and tell me how to live my life.
June 4th, 2009 | 10:39 am
DarkSwan -
Given the links to the above forced abortions that I noted, are you planning on taking your own advice and cleaning up *your* neighborhood first? Because I’m sure that plenty of women who don’t want to abort and are coerced or forced into it would appreciate serious steps taking toward eliminating the forced abortion. And yet, I don’t see pro-choicers rallying up demanding that justice be served to parents and boyfriends/spouses who make a woman abort. However, I have seen plenty of rallies by pro-lifers against violence, such as when Justice For All visited the U of Houston campus, both times.
I haven’t even seen pro-choicers pay lip service to abolishing forced abortions.
June 4th, 2009 | 2:02 pm
There is a distinct difference tabs, I’m not coming into *your* neighborhood and telling you how to live your life in the first place. A Abortion is legal, and B. last I checked forced abortion was not a concern of anyone except pro-lifers, I’m not going to try and stop parents from letting their kids do drugs either.
So, Don’t tell me what to rally for. Abortion is an issue really low on the totem pole for me. Economy, War, Torture, Education all matter much more to me. It’s only when people like you come to me and start telling me how to live my life that I get back in your face. You people have a real bad habit of telling everyone how to live their lives but can’t control your own Domestic Terrorists who gather on Pro-Life blogs like Operation Rescue and then lash out to kill Doctors.
Just because I don’t value a single cell embryo the way I do my family and friends doesn’t make you any better than me, it just shows I have different priorities in my personal judgment. We just have a difference of opinion, but you want to impose your beliefs on me, too bad ain’t it happening, ever.
I value freedom, and that includes the individual right to choose. Don’t tread on me!
June 5th, 2009 | 6:19 pm
Jennifer, I was just wondering: In your opinion, how “malformed” does a fetus have to be before a woman should be allowed to have a late term abortion? For instance, some people consider down syndrome to be a severe malformation, I see it as a disability that is part of human diversity. What does “severe malformation” mean in your mind?
June 5th, 2009 | 6:23 pm
DS-I am shocked and disgusted that you compare parents forcing their child to have an abortion to parents forcing their child not to do drugs. If you are really pro-choice, than you should respect and fight for the choice not to have an abortion just as much as teh choice to have one.
June 5th, 2009 | 6:27 pm
What I think is sad is that there is so much antipathy surrounding this issue that many people are unwilling to put aside their differences and work for the betterment of society/individuals together. For instance, as a disability advocate, I have experienced pro choice and pro life people coming together to fight futile care laws and advocate for disability rights. Usually such interaction doesn’t change anyone’s mind, but we work together in the assumption that we want to best for others in what we believe in, and thus, we learn from each other.
June 7th, 2009 | 1:54 pm
Safepres the difference between you and people like me who do respect individual choice is that I would not recommend the government stepping into a family and telling parents how to raise their child.
But you’re vearing off topic. This is about the impact of the assassination of George Tiller from an activist member of the Pro-Life community.
Roeder has since said that other organized plots are occurring throughout the Pro-Life community. Its being taken seriously enough that the FBI has opened further investigation.
Tiller went to work in a bulletproof vest, bulletproof car, lived in a gated community, had been shot before by a pro-life terrorist and was gunned down in a church by another pro-life terrorist. Hold the mirror up to yourselves.
June 8th, 2009 | 5:12 pm
DS-I’m not veering off topic, since you brought the subject up by saying you would support parents forcing their children to abort. If you say something like that, expect people to respond.
June 9th, 2009 | 11:52 am
Safepres you are forming arguments against – and attributing them to – people (me) who never made them. It makes you and your ilk dishonest and thickheaded.
Its people like you who pull things out of context and twist them into a lies that actually drive people like Roeder who are severely unstable off the edge, to the point where they kill people like Tiller.
People like you are the problem. Re-read the posts – get a damn clue.
Tabs – not me – brought up the idea that I shouldn’t be discussing Tillers death without also confronting parents who force thier kids get abortions. Read the many points in her post above – it appears you don’t even read the topics before blasting off like a misguided rocket.
Tabs said I have no right to comment on this topic. Also saying I cant talk about the death of Tiller because I’m not speaking out against forced abortion in China, which is irrelevant to what we are talking about.. – check the links!
IN RESPONSE, all I said its not the governments job to mandate how parents raise their kids. And then I clearly pointed out that Tabs was off topic, just like you.
I come to expect people like you to respond off topic when you have no sound basis to respond from, instead of admitting the plain truth.
The Assassination of a Doctor who saved women from carrying defunct or malformed children inside them – nearly or possibly dead – was killed by a goon from the pro-life camp who came onto boards like this and listened to prolife BS from people like you. Its a simple fact. Sorry thats sooo unbearable to hold up to yourselves.
From the O’Reillys onward, I say you’re all partially to blame. Not for this isolated incident but for the entire culture of Pro-Life Terrorism that spreads like cancer from the body of the Pro-Life movement.
Even though Wesley will admit none of the guilt.
June 9th, 2009 | 5:24 pm
Must be the hip thing for Pro-Lifers to revere abolitionists.
Roeder was an activist for ‘Wilberforces’, pro-lifers who delude themselves into thinking that somehow abortion and abolition are synonymous.
“Scott Roeder
Tue March 13, 2007, 20:26:48
PUT THIS MONSTER TILLER BEHIND BARS WHERE HE CAN’T MURDER ANY MORE OF OUR MOST INNOCENT UNBORN BABIES, WHO HAVE NO VOICE!!! WHERE ARE THE WILBERFORCES WHO WILL SCREAM OUT UNTIL THIS INJUSTICE RESTS ?!!!”
Sam Brownback has also hijacked the abolitionists for his own ends as well.
The Kansas senator responded to a question from LifeNews.com and said William Wilberforce has been a model for his pro-life efforts to stop both abortion and cloning.
“If he were alive today, one of the greatest causes he would take up is the cause of human dignity and that applies to the child in the womb,” Brownback said.
Apparently the abortion movement doesn’t have merit to stand its own ground, it has to contaminate the history of abolition by asserting some baseless conjecture of what Wilberforce ‘might’ have done if he were alive hundreds of years later. Might as well start comparing yourselves to Dr. Martin Luther King too…and be careful not to fall of those high horses.
So far its Brownback, Roeder, and …
Welcome to the abolitionist/anti-abortionist club Wesley!
June 9th, 2009 | 5:50 pm
DS-you are obviously very ideologically driven and are ignoring your own comment in support of parents forcing their children to have abortions. I am not sorry for responding to it and am not going to get into a ridiculous mud fight with you in which you misrepresent what I wrote and accuse me of being complicit in someone’s murder. It’s just not worth my time.
June 9th, 2009 | 6:19 pm
Hey Wesley! Thanks for the link and I can now see why HW would have thought that I might have been taking a stab at him but “IT” was mostly directed to History “ITself” but time will tell if I was right!
This is such a serious post so if you don’t mind I would like to start “IT” off with a joke! Hey I’m no skitso! Neither am I! :)
Are you calling me Victor? I’m not calling any bodies cells so leave me alone sinner vic!
Hey Victor! Have I told you how proud I am of you lately?
You’re proud of me sinner vic?
Of course I am cause thanks to you the gods are now paying attention to me!
You’re joking right! sinner vic?
I’m not Victor and I owe “IT” all to you cause remember in the late sixties when you kept making all kinds of physical sacrifice which your good Bishop has some reacord of “IT”. To make a long story short a month after you were married and looked into the mirror you saw the suns rays and thought that it was the end of the world.
I want you to stop that right now sinner vic, cause you know that “IT” must have been some of the officers from camp Pettawawa back then who must have found me to be a very interesting subject indeed!
Come on Victor, you know that you gave me permission to take them for a ride!
Take who for a ride sinner vic?
Those alien gods of course who are in some of your cells as we speak!
That’s not funny anymore sinner vic and I want you to stop “IT” right now!
Don’t worry BOUT “IT” Victor cause they’ve only got control of seven percent of your body now and that’s so you can learn how to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you. Between you and me Victor these alien gods really think that they are really “IT,” the answer to what hales humanity.
They do sinner vic?
I wouldn’t lie to you Victor but between you and me you’ve been keeping way too much from today’s societies cause it will be a big shock when they all learn “The Truth.” You should have told them about last summer when your daughter called you from camp.
I can’t remember sinner vic!
You can Victor but you just don’t want to share with any other cells in your galaxy cause you’re going to start thinking that they’ll be thinking that the aliens are thinking that these other human cell gods are thinking that you’re crazy or going crazy but you don’t need to worry about that Victor cause Three of the most Powerful Aliens have gaven me ‘Their Word’ and between me you and any other human cells who will listen, “IT” becomes Reality if need be when They Speak!
Even if I wanted you to continue, I would need Wesley’s permission to do so cause “IT” is His Blog you know!
Go ahead Victor! “IT’s” OK for now! :)
Alright sinner vic but I want to tell “IT” myself! Anyway to make a long story short, my daughter calls me from camp saying that our grand son who has C. F. needs help so I did not even take time to tie UP my laces and drove off with my wife. Half way there wouldn’t you know “IT” there was a road blog, I mean block and cars were being pulled over to see if anyone had been drinking. A few hours earlier I had consumed….well let’s just say that alcohol does not control my mind but honestly does, so when they asked me if I consumed any alcohol, I told them that I had taken two beers but I know that if I had said none, they would have let me by. I was asked to pull my car to the right and as I got out I noticed that my laces were undone and to make another long story short, while doing them UP I told the officer my story but was still asked to blow in a machine.
Victor as usual, you’re missing the point which was that the officer while you were blowing yelled in so many words for you to stop and other officers rushed to see what was happening and the officer told them that “IT” was alright and continued saying that if your had failed this test that you would have been taken to a bigger machine but Victor what I’m saying is that the alien gods saved you that night and you did not get even a slap.
What’s your point sinner vic?
I’m trying to tell you Victor that these god aliens are for real and they want to teach everyone of your cells to love one another so that your right hand can know what your left hand is doing as “ONE” and then there won’t be no more emergency room visits for stitches on your left finger.
Sorry Victor but enough is enough!
Gee Wesley! Can’t I at least tell you that we were told that our grand son who has C.F. might now have a hole in his heart and all about the trip home last night?
Maybe some other time Victor! Are you sure that you have not been drinking again Victor? :( Peace.
June 10th, 2009 | 3:17 pm
Most people on this board obviously don’t give a rats ass about discussing the topics at hand in an honest intellectual manner.
June 10th, 2009 | 8:11 pm
The only difference between the murders that the extremist “pro-lifers” committed and the incidents listed on those web pages, is that one set of crimes was perpetuated against grown adults, while the other set was perpetuated against babies still in the womb. Of course, in the case of forced abortions, the crime is also committed against the mother, but she survives the abortion. Usually.
How is the violence of a forced abortion any different from the violence of an abortion center being blown up? – Safepres.
Even now!! You’re equating legal abortion to Domestic Terror !!.. that’s messed up..
Because we are a nation of laws. These laws say that Abortion is not murder. The law gives the mother the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy.
If a child is involved, that is between the parents and the child. It is not and should not be the capacity of the government to intervene. Having said that, its of no consequence to this topic!!! This is about the Assassination of Dr. Tiller by a Pro-Life Domestic Terrorist in Kansas.
You have somehow convinced yourself that the law doesn’t matter and equated the two. Asserting that abortion is murder is void of reality. If you cannot see the difference between this and an act of political assassination then you are clearly part of the concern..
..to someone who isn’t thinking quite clearly, guys like Scott Roeder who get all self righteous, because of people they talk with in places like this.
Willfully ignoring the rule of law causes fervor within the Pro-Life community that has yielded no less than 9 major Domestic Terrorist actions in the last 13 years!!
June 10th, 2009 | 8:57 pm
Just for readers’ sake: The quote above, that DS attributes to me, was actually written by Tabs.
June 12th, 2009 | 5:25 pm
sorry, I hit the wrong button.
Conspiracy to commit a crime is a felony. For a conviction on that charge evidence must be produced showing that the defendents together planned and also prepared to commit a crime.
June 12th, 2009 | 5:45 pm
“Nine examples of abortion-related violence over a span of thirteen years? You seem quite comfortable with that…”
On the contrary, I said “The incidents are deplorable and the perpetrators deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law.” And nine incidents of violence is nine too many, whoever the target may be. That is my firm belief.
Yet DarkSwan asserts that my statement is mere lip service, insincere at best, disingenuous at worst.
My point was that conspiracy to commit terrorism necessarily requires a certain amount of organization among the conspirators; communication must be established, plans must be made, weapons acquired, etc. I suggest that those who rush to judge a criminal act as “terrorism” ought to be able to provide some evidence of the fact.
How DarkSwan can see into the mind and heart of someone who had posted a few, moderately expressed opinions here is a mystery to me.
Can this be yet another instance of attributing bad motives to those with whom one disagrees?
I bet you a Corinthian Julep that DarkSwan couldn’t offer a summary of my views on Roe v. Wade.
June 15th, 2009 | 10:54 am
Well Brangelina when you say things like this its hard to read you as sincere.
Nine examples of abortion-related violence over a span of thirteen years? Not exactly a crime wave. The incidents are deplorable and the perpetrators deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. But if this is evidence of an organized effort, well, then I am Angelina Jolie.
Terrorism can be committed on an individual level.
Roeder meets your “requirements”.
to commit terrorism necessarily requires a certain amount of organization among the conspirators; communication must be established, plans must be made, weapons acquired, etc.
Roeder’s plan was real simple, he premeditated to go to church and assassinate Tiller with a gun because the trial did not meet his political agenda to criminalize an abortion doctor. Then after he was arrested the communications between him and Op Rescue came to light, at which point he plainly stated, that there were others like him planning to commit further Assassination against abortion doctors on behalf of the Pro-Life movement.
Fact.
June 16th, 2009 | 2:09 pm
I most bet DarkSwan a Corinthian Julep that he couldn’t offer an accurate summary of my views on Roe v. Wade.
Looks as if the gentlemen felt…diffident, shall we say, about accepting my wager
(And by the way, I am *actually* Rachel Alexandra.)
Congratulations on your UK lecture, dear Mr. Smith. Oh my, lookit here! A nice frosty Corinthian Julep…and one more! Won’t you join me, Mr. Smith?
June 16th, 2009 | 2:11 pm
…That should read, “I most certainly bet…”
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