When an orca drowned one of his trainers at Orlando’s Sea World, nobody discussed “punishing” or otherwise holding him morally accountable. Indeed, the very notion is nonsensical, as a consequence of which, the question about “what to do” has properly revolved around how to best promote animal welfare and protect human safety. From the story:
Brancheau’s death has reignited calls for Tillikum and other captive killer whales to be released or put in ocean pens where they could communicate in normal whale fashion, something that’s impossible in a concrete tank. However, SeaWorld officials say Tillikum could not manage in the wild and even advocates for whale freedom believe it would be difficult to return him to Iceland. “We don’t know who his family is and it would be far too expensive to retire him to Iceland,” said Michael Harris, president of Seattle-based Orca Conservancy.
However, it could be possible to retire him to a sea pen at Neah Bay, Wash., and then partner with academic institutions to create long-term study opportunities, Harris said. “He would still be a huge safety concern for his caretakers,” he said. “Then again, perhaps he’d become far less dangerous if introduced to the natural seawater and ocean walks.”
Imagine if a human had done the same thing: Arrest, trial, perhaps life in prison or the death penalty would be the outcome for the murderer. But animals are not moral agents, and therefore, they cannot commit murder.
That is a distinction between us and animals that makes a real difference. Regardless of the grandeur of any animal–and killer whales, actually dolphins, are both awesome and intelligent–human exceptionalism can’t be denied. Our moral agency distinguishes us from all other known life forms in the history of the universe. That matters from an ethical standpoint, both justifying uniquely human rights and imposing distinct duties that only can be required of human beings.
Those who claim otherwise, it seems to me, do so in pursuit of agendas that cannot be achieved without pretending HE is not real. But that doesn’t change the unique nature of our natures.
February 27th, 2010 | 1:13 pm
[Becky: Get a grip, no name calling allowed]. What “intelligent human being” is going to write a story like that? Your depth of thinking goes about as deep as the water in my bathtub.
Speaking of BATHTUBS, I have a proposition for ya: How about if I made a deal with you? You never have to work or get food again. I just want you to stay in my bathtub and do a few flips before I give you your food. “Here ya go, an orange, but can I see a couple of backflips first?!” (and I’ll harvest your young to do the same thing!) Will you agree to that?
We need laws to protect wild animals from the kind of people who think nothing of exploiting them, and have no appreciation for life itself, to see it as precious, and deserving to be free.
You claim the whale “murdered a human.” That is the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. (you assume a whale has an understanding of how long a human can hold their breath, among other things!)
You make the ridiculous argument that humans surpass killer whales “morally?” (huh?) It is humans who have committed the crimes,” you bozo! In your Neanderthal thinking, you (and most living in 2010) still don’t understand the huge responsibility we’ve been given here as STEWARDS of this planet and all of it’s life.
How anyone can fail to see the horrendous crimes committed against these wondrous creatures is beyond me. What kind of mind thinks it’s okay to kidnap entire pods, force them to perform silly tricks to silly music all day, in what is essentially a bathtub? Their very lives have been stolen from them, and they will never roam the oceans again, never sing songs, communicate with their families (which they will never see again!) or live out their 70 year life-span in the oceans, where they were designed to live.
But it’s just like arguing with idiots. It’s a waste of time. You’re just going to get frustrated and the idiot isn’t going to “get a brain!”
All marine animals die young in captivity, but you won’t hear about this, either. Killer whale fins are curved over like will happen to any un-used limb. Their behavior in captivity is neurotic. Anyone held in captivity is going to become neurotic, and biologists all over the world have been telling SeaWorld officials this for YEARS. But it is a well-oiled cash cow, run by greedy, selfish humans, of the most sinister kind.
And as long as there are idiots out there who write articles like yours, it will continue!
Wesley J. Smith Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Becki Weaver:This is an example of howanimal advocates too often employ the rant as a method to eclipses reason. The post wasn’t about whether it is proper to keep orcas for entertainment and/or study. I think there is a legitimate argument to be made on animal welfare grounds that we shouldn’t. But this post wasn’t about that. It was about the difference between animals and humans, specifically how we have moral agency and animals do not. That, in my view, is one reason why humans are rights bearing and animals are not. You can scream. But it makes no difference, particularly when you don’t even address the issue presented for discussion.
February 27th, 2010 | 3:12 pm
Becki, a curved-over orca dorsal fin is an indication that the orca is male. Their dorsal fins are larger than females and thus more prone to flabbiness. Also, it doesn’t just happen to orcas in captivity:
http://forums.whale-web.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=137640&an=0&page=0
Not that I don’t accept your expertise or anything…
BTW, how many people do you think would give a rat’s patootie about orcas if they hadn’t seen them at Sea World or seen “Free Willy”, featuring a captive orca? We’re talking about an animal whose main food gathering activity is snatching baby seals off beaches. We are a heck of a lot more compassionate toward orcas than they are towards us.
I am glad that this animal isn’t being euthanized. This incident was just an orca being an orca (i.e. a large dangerous animal), and I hope this will lead people to understand what that means.
February 27th, 2010 | 3:16 pm
Another BTW to Becky: Wes did not claim, as you said, that Tillikum “murdered a human.” He said the orca “drowned one of his trainers,” and he did. You could even say he “killed” his trainer, although that suggests intent. But “murder” is when one human intentionally kills another one.
February 27th, 2010 | 7:02 pm
First off, humans are animals, too. And the most destructive and ONLY self-destructive animal on the planet, to my knowledge. We think we’re so damned smart. Clever, maybe, but certainly not “smart.” Even rats and cockroaches don’t dirty their own nests to the point of self-annihilation. Go figger.
As I write, a reported 50,000 species of plants and animals are going extinct every year around the world, all due to human impact. Gross human overpopulation is possibly the gravest threat to the planet, yet the issue goes mostly unaddressed (except for the Center for Biological Diversity, in recent weeks).
But hey, all this may be moot, if the renowned scientist James Lovelock (the Gaia Theory) is right (and I think he probably is). Dr. Lovelock opines that global warming is irreversible, and that there’ll be 5 BILLION dead people by the end of this century, from flooding, starvation, wars, and disease, with the few human survivors living hand-to-mouth north of the Arctic Circle, on a planet mostly devoid of plants and animals. I can hardly wait….
Meanwhile, I would recommend that all captive orcas and other cetaceans be rehabilitated and released into the wild. In the interim, a public boycott of Sea World, Six Flags and similar prisons seems in order.
Cheers,
Eric Mills, coordinator
ACTION FOR ANIMALS
Oakland
Wesley J. Smith Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
What makes you think you would live to see it, Eric? Animal rights anti human? Why Wesley, whatever gave you that idea?
February 27th, 2010 | 8:52 pm
Hello,
Just stumbled upon this blog.
I highly recommend the following two articles about Orcas in captivity:
http://counterpunch.org/hribal02252010.html
http://counterpunch.org/hribal02262010.html
They show a clear patten of calculated aggression by confined Orcas toward Humans, whereas, in the wild, you can scuba dive with these predators without ever being in danger of your life. These animals are HIGHLY intelligent. There is no conceivable way that they “mistook” their trainer for a toy, or that they did not comprehend that they were doing her harm.
All of which is completely understandable, considering that some of these animals have been kidnapped from their pods (scientists believe that each pod bears its own unique culture and language, transmitted through generations, and that separation from their pods, especially at a young age, is extremely traumatic).
As for Seaworld being an “educational facility”, this is obviously nonsense. It teaches children that it’s ok to take the ocean’s apex predator, confine it horrific conditions (for humans, it would being locked in a closet for your entire life) and make it perform dumb tricks for our amusement. This is NOT a good lesson.
I live in British Colombia, and have seen Orca pods on about 20 different occasions. Seeing them in the wild imbues you with a deep sense of respect for these animals. The opposite lessons are taught at seaworld.
One final note: scientists are now of the opinion that Orcas and other dolphins are the second-most intelligent species on the planet; some are even claiming that dolphin intelligence surpasses our own in some particular areas, and that they should be regarded as “non-human persons”.
Orcas are capable of being incredibly cruel; they are also capable of being magnanimous. Orcas have been known to spare the lives of seals after teaching their young a particular hunting technique.
Seaworld is nothing less than an atrocity.
February 27th, 2010 | 10:54 pm
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February 27th, 2010 | 11:04 pm
Scott: “They show a clear patten of calculated aggression by confined Orcas toward Humans, whereas, in the wild, you can scuba dive with these predators without ever being in danger of your life.”
You go first.
An animal that size could kill you without knowing you’re there, or by being playful, which is what seems to have happened to the Sea World trainer. Tilliken apparently saw her pony tail floating in the water and grabbed it like my dog would grab an old sock.
“It teaches children that it’s ok to take the ocean’s apex predator, confine it horrific conditions (for humans, it would being locked in a closet for your entire life) and make it perform dumb tricks for our amusement.”
Oh yeah, kids are gonna be hauling stray orcas home and claiming “he followed me home from Puget Sound, can I keep him in the bathtub?”
BTW, orcas don’t think they’re “dumb tricks.” Anything you see a marine mammal do in captivity, they also do in the wild. You can’t “teach” them to do a behavior, you can only teach them to associate it with a stimulus and reward. (I learned that at a dolphin show at an aquarium.)
“I live in British Colombia, and have seen Orca pods on about 20 different occasions. Seeing them in the wild imbues you with a deep sense of respect for these animals. The opposite lessons are taught at seaworld.”
Not everybody has the opportunity you have to see them in the wild. One of the Robson Bight scientists estimated that to equal the number of tourists that see orcas at Sea World et al you’d have to let 2000 boats a day go chasing after them. I am frankly not wild about having orcas kept in captivity, but if these shows make them real to people, then I believe that this benefits their species.
“Orcas are capable of being incredibly cruel; they are also capable of being magnanimous. Orcas have been known to spare the lives of seals after teaching their young a particular hunting technique.”
What you mean is, orcas are known to sometimes be hungry and sometimes be full. When you talk about them being “cruel” or “magnanimous” you’re only displaying the bad animal rights supporter habit of anthropomorphism. They don’t like or dislike the seals they release. They’re just not wasting meat. Catch and release, if you will. (Bet you don’t like it when human fishermen do that, do you?)
February 27th, 2010 | 11:32 pm
SeaWorld had issued contradictory reports on the Whale murder… muddy waters are benefiting the owners of the Sea World…divide opinions, put out inconsistent information, confuse and thrive…just another day at the office Im afraid.
I am sure that SeaWorld has put bottom line before the well being of the whale, humans, trainers and anyone else who stood in the way of making profits.
The root of the problem is deeper Im afraid. I’ve written about it on my blog.
http://dogandogs.com/serial-killer-whale-strikes-again-the-sea-wor
February 28th, 2010 | 1:16 am
Padraig: “You go first.
An animal that size could kill you without knowing you’re there, or by being playful, which is what seems to have happened to the Sea World trainer.”
And yet, strangely enough, there are no recorded incidents of Orca killing human beings in the wild. Quite the contrary, they seem fascinated by us. I HAVE gone first. I’ve snorkeled within ten feet of a pod of Orca whales off the coast of Saturna island. I’ve also been smack in the MIDDLE of a pod sitting in a bath-tub sized row boat. I will admit that both close encounters were frightening, but the whales not only failed to attack me, they maneuvered AROUND me, checking me out with big, intelligent, curious eyes, but never showing any signs of aggression.
“Tilliken apparently saw her pony tail floating in the water and grabbed it like my dog would grab an old sock.”
Incorrect. This is silly sea world PR that no one with any knowledge of the history of Orcas in captivity can take seriously. You clearly didn’t read either of those links I posted. They show an unmistakable and constant pattern of Orcas behaving with CACULATED aggression towards human beings while in captivity. They are frightened, neurotic and uncertain in these conditions, and they mostly play by the rules (when they don’t, they are placed in “isolation” tanks [solitary confinement] or denied food). Every once in a wild they strike out. The question of why they don’t simply bite every human in half is an interesting one, and again, is far more likely to be a sign of their intelligence than lack thereof. They understand fully well that they are in a slave-master relationship. I’m quite sure a captive Tiger understands same, and the Tiger’s intelligence is completely remote from that of Orcas.
Orcas are a species of dolphin – now regarded by scientists as the second-most intelligent species on the planet. In fact, as stated previously, many scientists believe dolphins to be of SUPERIOR intelligence than mankind in SOME areas, including those related to complex cogitation.
The idea that the Orca didn’t realize it was harming its “trainer” while thrashing her around and dragging her to the bottom of the pool until she drowned is completely laughable.
“Oh yeah, kids are gonna be hauling stray orcas home and claiming “he followed me home from Puget Sound, can I keep him in the bathtub?”
I’m not sure if you missed the point or are merely trying to side-step it, but the lesson taught by Seaworld is that it’s morally acceptable to kidnap highly intelligent, highly sociable animals from their families (or breed them using masturbation for future stock), lock them in what amounts to a kiddie pool, force them to perform tricks in exchange for food, punish them when they do not do as they’re told — all for the passable amusement of human beings, so that a corporation can make money. I don’t know about you, but that’s not the kind of thing I want to be teaching children. It shows a hideous disrespect not only to the animal but to the human character in general.
“BTW, orcas don’t think they’re “dumb tricks.” Anything you see a marine mammal do in captivity, they also do in the wild. You can’t “teach” them to do a behavior, you can only teach them to associate it with a stimulus and reward. (I learned that at a dolphin show at an aquarium.)”
That’s strange. I don’t recall seeing people riding around on the noses of Orcas in the wild. You’re right about the behaviorist techniques employed to force these animals into leaping through hoops, but you forget to mention fear-based conditioning.
“Not everybody has the opportunity you have to see them in the wild.”
Nor do they need to. There is no reason why I should be entitled to see some animal that lives half-way around world. That’s what the discovery channel’s for. “It’s my RIGHT to see lions in the flesh! Otherwise, I could less about them”. How insane is that?
“What you mean is, orcas are known to sometimes be hungry and sometimes be full. When you talk about them being “cruel” or “magnanimous” you’re only displaying the bad animal rights supporter habit of anthropomorphism. They don’t like or dislike the seals they release.”
I’m pretty sure animals are capable of feeling emotions, including schadenfreude. There’s nothing to suggest that a cat does not take immense pleasure from torturing a mouse. Indeed, dolphins are known to have a “black” sense of humor.
“Dolphins have been known to silently maneuver behind an unsuspecting pelican and snatch its tail feathers — usually leaving the bird minus a few. Other pranks include grabbing unsuspecting fish by the tail, pulling them backward a few feet as well as bothering slow turtles by rolling them over and over. Once a dolphin was seen placing a piece of squid near a grouper’s rock cranny. When the fish came out, the dolphin promptly snatched the bait away, leaving the puzzled fish behind.”
What you call “anthropomorphism” is actually observational science, in this particular respect. And no, I have no problem with fishermen who catch and release, nor of fishermen who catch and eat.
February 28th, 2010 | 2:26 am
“First off, humans are animals, too. And the most destructive and ONLY self-destructive animal on the planet, to my knowledge.” We think we’re so damned smart.
Birds will mutilate themselves if they are bored. Also, if a bird gets a sore or cut on its foot, some will pick at it and make it worse. We used to have a dog that would scratch a certain spot on her back until it became hairless and raw, so we had to constantly stop her from scratching it til it healed up.
Do you think parrots are less intelligent than worms because they feather pluck?
“Even rats and cockroaches don’t dirty their own nests to the point of self-annihilation. Go figger.”
I breed cockroaches as food for my pets. If I don’t “thin the herd” they will overpopulate the container they are in, causing their own demise from lack of space and resources. Unlike humans, these animals are not smart enough to protect themselves from predators and manage their resources. It isn’t because they are smarter than us.
Deer, for example, can decimate forests if there is nothing to keep their numbers in check. They will keep on breeding until they exhaust their food supply and start to die off, giving their resources the chance to replenish.
So even if we do exhaust all of our resources and end up dying off, we’d be behaving just like any other animal.
“As I write, a reported 50,000 species of plants and animals are going extinct every year around the world, all due to human impact. Gross human overpopulation is possibly the gravest threat to the planet, yet the issue goes mostly unaddressed (except for the Center for Biological Diversity, in recent weeks).”
And how does making animals extinct make humans stupid? Billions of species went extinct before we existed in our current form. Were the animals who caused saber-toothed tigers and dire wolves to go extinct stupid too?
Also, the planet is fine. Personifying the Earth is silly. It has been through natural disasters that have been much worse.
“It teaches children that it’s ok to take the ocean’s apex predator, confine it horrific conditions (for humans, it would being locked in a closet for your entire life) and make it perform dumb tricks for our amusement”
You can’t compare the needs/wants of a human to a whale. That’s like saying keeping dogs is cruel because you wouldn’t keep a human in the house/yard all day either.
Even if whale husbandry right now isn’t very good, it is no way like keeping a human in a closet.
Speaking of dogs, I’m glad people who are against keeping wild animals in captivity, even ones who are born in captivity and cannot even returned to the wild, didn’t exist thousands of years ago. We wouldn’t have dogs, cats or farm animals (many of which can be just as deadly as wild animals and kill many people per year, but its okay to keep those for some reason).
Obviously, keeping dogs as pets, and no one needs a pet dog, is telling our children it is okay to take wolves and chain them to a tree in the backyard.
“They understand fully well that they are in a slave-master relationship. I’m quite sure a captive Tiger understands same, and the Tiger’s intelligence is completely remote from that of Orcas.”
I don’t see how a tiger or orca would see themselves in a slave-master relationship anymore than a pet dog or cat would. I also kind of doubt they have any concept of slavery or being owned.
“Nor do they need to. There is no reason why I should be entitled to see some animal that lives half-way around world. That’s what the discovery channel’s for. “It’s my RIGHT to see lions in the flesh! Otherwise, I could less about them”. How insane is that?”
Right now there are species of tarantula that are becoming threatened in the U.S. Very few people care about them. Many people think they are evil animals and are taught to fear them. I used to be terribly afraid of spiders and cared little about them until I bought one for a pet. Seeing an animal in person, and even being able to interact with it, has much more of an impact than watching them on TV or seeing pictures in a book.
February 28th, 2010 | 10:42 am
Just to play with the premise, I am pretty sure if a human killed an animal he wouldn’t get life in prison or possibly death. And a human with the intellectual aptitude of a whale wouldn’t be imprisoned either.
And plenty of people are calling for that whale to be put down.
Wesley J. Smith Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 11:07 am
But if he is put down, it won’t be for doing anything wrong morally.
February 28th, 2010 | 12:35 pm
Just a few comments:
The biggest reason we have captive orcas is so some major corporations can make a ton of money. That’s appalling. And yes, before I knew better it was really fun to take the kids to see it. Now I’ll never step foot in a Sea World or similar place again.
Whether you agree with Sea World business or not, please go see the Academy Award nominated film “The Cove” — a really exciting & ENTERTAINING movie besides being about dolphin slaughter in Japan to get dolphins for shows — and then to cut up thousands more dolphins annually for mercury laden meat that was fed to kids in school lunch programs. This yearly kill was hidden from the Japanese public for years.
Original Flipper trainer (and capturer) Ric O’Barry is dedicating his life to undoing the wrong he feels he started. And he swears that one of the Flipper animals committed suicide in his arms by holding her breath — O’Barry says dophins can choose not to breathe, unlike humans. I haven’t researched this but why put something like that into a full-length film if it was b.s.? I think O’Barry, one of the most knowledgable people about dolphins, would disagree with the idea that cetaceans do not choose to harm themselves.
The morality of dolphins, including killer whales, seems like a silly controversy. Morality is inherently about the human social code. Orcas and other dolphins probably have their own code and it’s very likely we could seem “immoral” to them. The orca at Sea World could have meant to kill the trainer — earlier visitors said it was agitated that day. We will never know.
I’m for stopping these orca and dolphin shows altogether and getting on with stewardship of the planet. That, too, can be a thrilling prospect and is much more meaningful to the human race than watching captives do a few flips.
February 28th, 2010 | 12:38 pm
Wesley,
I apologize for calling you an idiot. Clearly, this subject arouses passions in people in a powerful way.
I’m not sure if you missed the point or are merely trying to side-step it. Your words, “MORAL DIFFERENCE,” got my attention. So I responded to what I see as a ridiculous argument that makes no sense.
I will repeat the words of Scott, above, since I agree with him 100%:
“The lesson taught by SeaWorld is that it’s morally acceptable to kidnap highly intelligent, highly sociable animals from their families (or breed them using masturbation for future stock), lock them in what amounts to a kiddie pool, force them to perform tricks in exchange for food, punish them when they do not do as they’re told — all for the passable amusement of human beings, so that a corporation can make money.”
This is the big white elephant in the room that SeaWorld execs (& other marine park owners) want the public to miss. This is the point that you fail to see in your article about a “moral difference” between humans and orcas. How can we expect our future generations to learn from our mistakes when we don’t teach them to deeply examine what is TRULY GOING ON HERE, and not buy into the propaganda that’s being fed to them? Present the facts and let all use their own critical thinking skills (or lack thereof) to come up with their own opinion. But don’t let the unthinking ones wreak havoc on the world or rule the rest of us.
I also agree with Scott when he says, “I don’t know about you, but that’s not the kind of thing I want to be teaching children. It shows a hideous disrespect not only to the animal but to the human character in general.”
You say, “Our moral agency distinguishes us from all other known life forms in the history of the universe.”
(what do you know the history of the universe?)
You say, “That matters from an ethical standpoint, both justifying uniquely human rights and imposing distinct duties that only can be required of human beings.”
The only “rights” we have are the ones we enacted ourselves, when we formed our individual governments, since He has given us FREE WILL. I agree that we need to answer to a higher power. Given the fact that we as humans have been given dominion over all the planet, included in that premise is GOOD STEWARDSHIP. We need to be good stewards over all in our “charge,” or be relinquished of those duties.
We, the thinking people of conscience, need to enact rules to curb the outrageous behavior of the kind of people who run these multi-billion dollar corporations. The ones who would reduce MAJESTIC creatures like orcas and dolphins to mere CIRCUS PERFORMERS, generating CASH COW businesses to keep themselves living in the LAP OF LUXURY….hoping the public doesn’t realize that THE EMPEROR WEARS NO CLOTHES.
We need to BOYCOTT SEAWORLD AND ALL MARINE PARKS! Let’s end this insanity in OUR lifetimes, and not let it be one more thing we dump on our children.
Wesley J. Smith Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Apology accepted, Becky Weaver. All views are welcome here. Welcome to the forum.
February 28th, 2010 | 1:36 pm
me: “Tilliken apparently saw her pony tail floating in the water and grabbed it like my dog would grab an old sock.”
Scott: “Incorrect. This is silly sea world PR that no one with any knowledge of the history of Orcas in captivity can take seriously. ”
That’s what the other trainers theorized. Somehow I think they know more about orcas in captivity than I do. Or you.
Scott: “That’s strange. I don’t recall seeing people riding around on the noses of Orcas in the wild. You’re right about the behaviorist techniques employed to force these animals into leaping through hoops, but you forget to mention fear-based conditioning.”
Ok, first, they swim around like that whether the people are on their nose or not. They’re not forced into anything. How would you? Fear based conditioning? What’s an orca going to fear from a 150-lb human being? Tilliken wasn’t afraid of the trainer he drowned.
me: ““Not everybody has the opportunity you have to see them in the wild.”
Scott: “Nor do they need to. There is no reason why I should be entitled to see some animal that lives half-way around world. That’s what the discovery channel’s for. ”
After you get to enjoy the privilege of swimming with orcas, then you tell the rest of us we should be content watching them on TV? Pretty bloody elitist of you. Do you think people form an emotional connection that way? Sea World and zoos, although less than ideal environments, make these animals real to people without disturbing or harming those still in the wild.
me: “What you mean is, orcas are known to sometimes be hungry and sometimes be full. When you talk about them being “cruel” or “magnanimous” you’re only displaying the bad animal rights supporter habit of anthropomorphism. They don’t like or dislike the seals they release.”
Scott: “I’m pretty sure animals are capable of feeling emotions, including schadenfreude. There’s nothing to suggest that a cat does not take immense pleasure from torturing a mouse. Indeed, dolphins are known to have a “black” sense of humor. ”
First, certainty does not equal truth.
Second, you have no evidence to back up your assertions except more anthropomorphism (which is very speciesist of you, btw). Your descriptions are homocentric interpretations of behavior that we have absolutely no reliable way of analyzing. Of course “higher” animals have something resembling our emotions, but to assign them characteristics like “schadenfreude” is ludicrous. That means “shameful joy,” and animals do not even APPER to feel any shame. Like Mark Twain said, “Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.”
Scott: “Dolphins have been known to silently maneuver behind an unsuspecting pelican and snatch its tail feathers — usually leaving the bird minus a few. Other pranks include grabbing unsuspecting fish by the tail, pulling them backward a few feet as well as bothering slow turtles by rolling them over and over. Once a dolphin was seen placing a piece of squid near a grouper’s rock cranny. When the fish came out, the dolphin promptly snatched the bait away, leaving the puzzled fish behind.
What you call “anthropomorphism” is actually observational science, in this particular respect. ”
Describing the behavior (which sounded like hunting practice to me, btw) is observational science. Ascribing that to human characteristics is anthropomorphism, which you’ll notice was carefully avoided in the section you quoted or paraphrased. As another writer once said, “An organism in a controlled environment, under controlled conditions, will do as it bloody well pleases.” Good observers are careful not to project their own emotions on the organisms they observe.
February 28th, 2010 | 1:39 pm
Matt: “Just to play with the premise, I am pretty sure if a human killed an animal he wouldn’t get life in prison or possibly death. ”
Nope, he won’t go unpunished either. See “Vick, Michael.”
February 28th, 2010 | 2:32 pm
Wesley:
You wrote: “When an orca drowned one of his trainers at Orlando’s Sea World, nobody discussed “punishing” or otherwise holding him morally accountable. Indeed, the very notion is nonsensical…”
“Nobody,” did you say? “Nonsensical?” Then you might want to consider the following idiocy about the Sea World incident posted on the Web by your Republican soul-mates at the American Family Association (who, by the way, have taken stances identical to yours on human exceptionalism, animal rights, abortion, stem cell technology, global warming and health care reform). The article can be read in its entirety at:
(http://www.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147492239).
“Bible ignored, trainer dies
Date: 2/25/2010 9:27:17 AM
“If the counsel of the Judeo-Christian tradition had been followed, Tillikum would have been put out of everyone’s misery back in 1991 and would not have had the opportunity to claim two more human lives.
“Says the ancient civil code of Israel, “When an ox gores a man or woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner shall not be liable.” (Exodus 21:28)
“So, your animal kills somebody, your moral responsibility is to put that animal to death. You have no moral culpability in the death, because you didn’t know the animal was going to go postal on somebody.
“But, the Scripture soberly warns, if one of your animals kills a second time because you didn’t kill it after it claimed its first human victim, this time you die right along with your animal. To use the example from Exodus, if your ox kills a second time, “the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:29)”
I think you need to stop denying that this human exceptionalism business is religion-based. Just take a look at who’s in bed with you.
Wesley J. Smith Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
From what I read, the guy was blaming Sea World, not the whale. Here’s the part you left out from that blogger. “If I were the family of Dawn Brancheau, I’d sue the pants off SeaWorld for allowing this killer whale to kill again after they were well aware of its violent history. SeaWorld is apparently, however, unrepentant. Chuck Thompson, its curator in charge of animal behavior, says Tilly continues to be “a valuable asset not only from a breeding standpoint but from a behavior standpoint, too.” Chuck might want to ask Dawn’s Mom what she thinks about that.
Thompson did add, helpfully, “I think we need to evaluate his behavior and everything that’s happened up to this point.” You’re about 19 years too late, Chuck, and the blood of Dawn Brancheau is on your hands.”
Basically, the entry says that those who know an animal is dangerous are responsible for the harm that animal subsequently may cause.
February 28th, 2010 | 6:05 pm
Becky and others: “We need to BOYCOTT SEAWORLD AND ALL MARINE PARKS! ”
Fine, go ahead. That is your right, as it is my right to go there if I agree with their mission. Right now the Hummer is being put to sleep by General Motors, not because eco-freaks set a few on fire, but because people stopped buying them (imho because they’re ridiculously expensive and impractical vehicles). The buying public seems to get it right eventually.
February 28th, 2010 | 8:51 pm
Imagine if people cared as much about pragmatic solutions to REAL problems facing us: economic stability, energy, consumption over innovation, agriculture, emerging diseases, climate change, overpopulation, etc.
Nope, people are more concerned with a whale used as a business prop (I am no fan of Sea World, BTW)
We are such a brilliant species and we can handle any future problem.
(vasectomies and tubals, anyone, anyone???)
February 28th, 2010 | 9:41 pm
HW, as near as I’ve seen, everybody who has a voice in the decision, including the trainers and Brancheau’s family, have stated repeatedly that they do not want Tilliken punished or euthanized. So feel free to disregard the lunatic fringe. Always works for me. ;)
March 1st, 2010 | 6:01 am
This is a long post, and I apologize to the mod’s in advance….
Padraig:
“That’s what the other trainers theorized. Somehow I think they know more about orcas in captivity than I do. Or you.”
–
Asking an Orca “trainer” whether the animals are happy in captivity is like asking Dick Cheney what he thinks of water boarding. Their opinions are the least objective and therefore irrelevant.
I’m sure you could find an “Orca expert” or two willing to pimp Seaworld propaganda, but part of the reason for this is that the behavior of Orcas in captivity has, until recently, been a pretty well kept secret. We only hear about these “accidents” when they involve death or severe injury and/or when they occur in front of crowds.
Since you have chosen yet again to ignore the content of the two articles I linked, here are a few excerpts for other readers. Although the names are often the same, they often refer to different animals in different theme parks (Nootka, for example, is the name given to five separate Orcas).
“The whale got her foot,” an audience member recalled to reporters, “and pulled her in.” We do not know which orca it was that started it, but all three, Nootka, Haida, and Tilikum, took their turns dunking the screaming woman underwater. “She went up and down three times,” another visitor continued. The Sealand employees “almost got her once with the hook pole, but they couldn’t because the whales were moving so fast.” One trainer tossed out a floatation ring, but the whales would not let her grab it. In fact, the closer that such devices got to the young woman, the further out the whales pulled her into the pool. It took park officials two hours to recover her drowned body.”
–
“In 1989, there had been two violent incidences involving Nootka. The first occurred in April. A trainer was in the middle of a routine activity, scratching the orca’s tongue, when that orca decided to turn the tables. Nootka “bit her hand and dragged her into the whale pool.” The woman had to be rescued by a fellow employee.”
–
“When a trainer tried to retrieve the camera, Nootka used the opportunity to grab a hold of the man’s leg and jerk him into the pool.”
–
“Skana once showed her dislike,” a Vancouver employee explained, “by dragging a trainer around the pool.” “Her teeth sank into his wetsuit but missed the leg.”
–
“During a mid-1980s performance, she struck a trainer in the head with her pectoral fin. Aquarium administrators pronounced that it was an accident. Her trainers knew better. As one of them disclosed, Nootka often leapt out of the water in order to punch her trainers directly in the chest. She wanted to hurt people.”
–
“Three years after the death of his mother in 2001, Ky made news of his own. That July, during a performance in front a thousand people, the orca jumped on top of his trainer and repeatedly pushed the man underwater. Sea World, afterwards, tried to pass the incident off as rough play, saying that at no time was the trainer in danger. Witnesses did not buy it. As one of them explained, “the whale was staying between the [exit] ramp and the trainer and finally the trainer jumped on top of the whale’s back and leaped over him and another trainer caught him.” At that point, “the whale turned around and slammed down on the ramp and he was pretty upset that the trainer got out of the pool.”
–
“As the pressure mounted on Sea World, new facts started to emerge. It was soon reported that three trainers had been injured in the past three months. According to the park, these were minor scraps. No big deal. Later, though, more numbers came out. There had been fourteen separate injuries in past the five months. Some were not overly serious, such as bites to the hands. But others were. Trainers had been rammed while in the water. In fact, among the fourteen injuries at the San Diego park, at least three had involved neck and back trauma. In June, an orca named Kandu jumped on top of a person during a rehearsal. In March, Orky actually grabbed a hold of a trainer during a performance and pulled the person down to bottom of the thirty-two foot deep tank. He then rushed to the surface and spat the trainer out. At which time, another whale slammed into the individual. With the person floundering about, Orky grasped onto the man once again and pulled him under. The attack lasted two and half minutes, and the trainer was taken to the hospital with broken ribs, a ruptured kidney, and a lacerated liver.”
–
“Orky was in the middle of rehearsing a new routine, when he suddenly stopped and flipped the trainer off his back. He then pushed the woman to the bottom of the twenty-three foot deep tank and held her there for almost four minutes. It was the head curator and an assistant who pulled the unconscious body out of the water. They were able to revive the woman with CPR.”
–
I’m astounded that someone of your obvious intelligence would continue to claim that these dozens upon dozens of incidents are all a series of happy accidents by Orcas being overly “playful”. If you lock a lion or a bear in a tiny cage and repeatedly poke it with a stick, it will act out in anger. The same is true of Orcas. The only interesting question, as I mentioned previously, is why the attacks are not more savage and frequent. And that beings us to:
Padraig: “Ok, first, they swim around like that whether the people are on their nose or not. They’re not forced into anything. How would you? Fear based conditioning? What’s an orca going to fear from a 150-lb human being? Tilliken wasn’t afraid of the trainer he drowned.”
If Tilliken wasn’t at least a little bit afraid of humans, he would be a supremely stupid animal. He was kidnapped by his Pod at the age of two by – you guessed it – humans. They killed his mother then kidnapped him. A psychologist recently wrote a paper describing the psychological effects this would have had on a young Orca:
“Videos of orca captures reveal the terror and agony of what these beautiful, sensitive individuals endure. Although in the language of orca, their screams reach the ears of any species.”
–
“Orca culture is matrilineal and unlike elephants, male orcas stay with their mother and pod for life. Orcas have brains four times as large as humans. According to neuroscientist Dr. Lori Marino, Emory University, who recently spoke about dolphins at an AAAS symposium, the neuroanatomy, complex language, and social behaviour of our marine counterparts makes them comparably vulnerable to psychological trauma.”
–
“After suffering a violent and premature separation from his mother, Tilikum has lived his entire life in artificial tanks, had limited interactions with other orcas, been transferred between various unnatural facilities, subjected to regular “training”, and lived under the highly restricted and controlled conditions of an aquarium. Under the constant eye of trainers and excited spectators and pelted by blaring music, Tilikum lives in a veritable fish bowl. It also appears that his magnificent physique (he is the largest orca in captivity) and his unpopular habits have reduced his role to sperm production.”
–
“It was cold, as only Iceland could be in mid-winter. But it did not matter. He was warm, healthy, and well insulated. In fact, the cold rushing past his face was exhilarating. Suddenly, his mother called. The world seemed to contract and he was surrounded by deafening screams, mothers calling for their babies, babies wailing for their mothers. He was never to see his own again. Over the next years, he lived behind walls in an area barely large enough for him to turn around. From morning to night, he was forced to labor, rewarded with food when his captors found him compliant. In addition, he was forced to lie on his back and ejaculate on cue at the sight of a plastic bag while two men held his penis to collect semen. Days turned to years. He was now 30 years old, a prisoner since the age of two.”
–
You seem to be suggesting that these “big dumb animals” like nothing more than to jump through hoops in exchange for dead fish. The actual history reveals a very different pattern:
“Sea World orcas work as many as eight shows a day, 365 days a year. In the ocean, these whales can swim up to ninety miles a day. In captivity, the tanks are measured in feet. In the ocean, orcas have a highly evolved and cohesive matriarchal culture. Generations of family members, combining both females and males, spend their entire lives together—with each family, or pod, having its own unique form of dialect. In captivity, little to none of this exists. Their culture is effectively destroyed.”
–
“The most common method of control is through the reward or withholding of fish. At Sealand of the Pacific, an aquarium once based in British Columbia, the trainers often withheld 25 to 35% of their orcas’ daily food allowance to acquire discipline. Marineland tried to do this with Orky, but it was not successful. After one particularly poor performance, for instance, his trainer decided to “dock his pay” and not give him any fish. Orky would have none of this. He “shrieked angrily and jerked his head at lightning-quick speed.” The whale then gave the man the “red eye.” Translated, it means anger; AND WHEN IT HAPPENS, ‘TRAINERS’ RUN FOR THEIR LIVES. In this specific case, the person tossed a large quality of fish towards Orky and then promptly left the scene. This orca had way of manipulating those around him. “Several times,” a senior employee explained, “I’ve seen Orky take advantage of a single trainer on a specific point over a period of several days.” He would take a brief swim between routines. This delay would, as the days progressed, grow longer and longer. Eventually, there was barely any show to speak of. To get Orky to return to performing at full effort, Marineland had to greatly increase his payment of fish.”
–
“All of Sea World’s parks, in fact, have alternative plans built-in to their performances to deal with this type of resistance. “You have to make allowances for the animal,” one administrator acknowledged, “because they can recognize the show ending.” “They will just stop and refuse to perform.” To prevent this, he continued, “a lot of variability and flexibility is built into our shows.” If trainers are losing control of a situation, they will switch whales. If this does not help, they will distract the audience by giving a lecture about orcas and the oceans, or they will start a video on the Jumbotron. Recent mothers are especially notorious in their refusal to work. TO COMBAT THIS, THE CALVES THEMSELVES ARE BROUGHT INTO THE SHOW. Yet, for parks like Marineland or Sea World, attacks on trainers represent a higher level of struggle.”
–
“For its part, Marineland decided that Orky’s punishment for his May of 1978 assault would be isolation. “No one is going near Orky for three days,” a spokesperson bristled. “YES, YOU COULD SAY THAT ORKY IS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT”.
“As for Sea World, after the series of 1987 attacks, it decided to scrap its entire training program. Called “the Sea World Method,” the program emphasized less predictably. The payment of fish was regularly replaced with toys, games, and tactile stimulation. The point was to keep the orcas guessing and thereby turn them into better, more reliable performers. But in the battle over the control of production, the orcas ultimately won out. The Sea World Method was replaced with a version that relied much more upon the direct reward of fish. The switch seemed to have immediate results, and the park’s trainers were allowed back in the water in May of 1988—just in time for Sea World’s 25th anniversary. Improving matters, the primary troublemaker, Orky, would die four months later. An autopsy revealed that the 30 year old had the organs of an orca double his age. Orky had been literally worked to death. Nevertheless, Harcourt and Brace was done with the whale business. The company finalized its sale in September of the following year. Anheuser-Busch was now the owner of Sea World.”
To make matter worse, Seaworld denies Orcas not only their language but the primary means by which they navigate their environment:
“Because the power dynamic in which we appear to dominate them is ultimately an illusion, a product purely of the orcas’ intelligence, their willingness to socialize with us rather than eat us. Not only are orcas large and powerful, they are incredibly intelligent creatures with huge brains. And like all sentient creatures, their mental health ultimately affects their behavior.
And there is no situation more likely to negatively affect a killer whale’s mental health than being locked up in a comparatively tiny pool of water surrounded by blank cement walls.
For a human, it would be akin to locking someone in a white, featureless padded room with maybe a couple of other people and getting fed by doing tricks for your captors. How long before you think people would start cracking and acting erratically in those conditions?
For orcas, it’s even more acute. You know the big bulge on the front of their heads? That’s not their big brain, which is located behind the whale’s eyes. That’s a sound receptor — probably the most sophisticated of its kind in the natural world, though it mostly is a large sac of extraordinarily fine oil.
While eyesight is probably the most important of our primary senses, the chief means we have for perceiving and understanding our world, for orcas, it is at best No. 2 on the list. Their eyesight is reasonably good, roughly comparable to that of humans, but underwater — which is where they spend 99 percent of their time — it’s of limited utility, since the farthest anyone can see underwater in even the clearest of conditions is a couple of dozen yards.
Killer whales’ primary means of sensory perception is their echolocation, and it is a true sixth sense. We’re only now beginning to delve just how sophisticated it is, but it’s become fairly apparent that orcas are capable of seeing with remarkable clarity for hundreds of yards underwater, and their sound receptors and the brain attached to them are capable of “seeing” with remarkable detail and clarity through this sonic sense.
Combined with the sophisticated communication system of their “calls”, or their language, their universe is primarily a sonic one. And so putting them in relatively featureless concrete tanks is akin to being in a blank white soundproof room for a human.”
–
Let’s draw an analogy to human beings: imagine a group of people breaking into your home, killing your family, locking you in a room with two people who don’t speak your language, cutting out your eyeballs, forcing you to labor all day 365 DAYS A YEAR in exchange for raw, bland food, denying you said food and putting you in solitary confinement when you refuse to work, and periodically sedating and masturbating you. I wouldn’t wish that kind of life on a squirrel, let alone a highly intelligent animal like an Orca.
Hopefully this will help you understand why Orcas in captivity are indeed terrified of human beings – and rightfully so. Re-reading this blog, I noticed that you made the astounding claim that:
Padraig: “We’re talking about an animal whose main food gathering activity is snatching baby seals off beaches. We are a heck of a lot more compassionate toward orcas than they are towards us.”
–
It wasn’t until I read this passage that I realized – to put it bluntly – that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Even putting aside the history of whaling, “some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die” by way of human activity ever year — 99% by the whaling industry and industrial fishing. [the article concludes: “The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing.”] In contrast, the known human death toll by Orca in all of recorded history is about 5 – all while the animals were in captivity. Watch the following video. It shows a group of scuba divers swimming with Orca in the Galapagos Islands. Here we have the ocean’s apex predator – an animal that can kill anything in the sea – treating human beings not with aggression, but curiosity and respect. If only we could return the favor.
Now watch this video of a pod of Orcas making mincemeat of a great white shark:
We should be treating his animal with the same respect it treats us, not locking it up and forcing it to perform dumb tricks. The Orca is a testament to God’s majesty.
Padraig: “After you get to enjoy the privilege of swimming with orcas, then you tell the rest of us we should be content watching them on TV? Pretty bloody elitist of you. Do you think people form an emotional connection that way? Sea World and zoos, although less than ideal environments, make these animals real to people without disturbing or harming those still in the wild.”
I think you missed the point. I used the example of the LION for a reason. I have no expectation of ever seeing a Lion, or a Tiger, or a Jaguar in the flesh because they don’t live on the same continent that I do. In fact, I have no expectation of ever seeing a Cougar in the flesh, even though the wily beasts roam my backyard.
I’m a good case study, actually. I saw Orcas in captivity before I saw them in the wild. The Vancouver Aquarium used to imprison several of these animals, and I was taken to several shows as a boy. I remember being astonished at their awesome power (and, on a subconscious level, the way in which human beings were able to exploit it), but that’s about it. In fact, it wasn’t until I saw a documentary on Orca society that I really began to appreciate them. Places like Seaworld teach all the wrong lessons.
Padraig: “Of course “higher” animals have something resembling our emotions, but to assign them characteristics like “schadenfreude” is ludicrous. That means “shameful joy,” and animals do not even APPER to feel any shame. Like Mark Twain said, “Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.”
So if I understand you correctly, a cat DOES NOT take pleasure in “playing” with a mouse? They coulda fooled me! “Shameful joy” refers to the fact that the behavior is shameful, not that some humans take issue with other humans taking pleasure from another’s pain. These are moralistic judgments, and no, I’m not a relativist. It is interesting to note, however, that some animals do indeed APPEAR to experience shame, or something like it. So for example, according to Zoologist Richard Conniff:
“No other primate on Earth practices anything remotely like hoarding. Monkeys and apes in the wild may occasionally try to hide some choice morsel or stuff it down before anyone else notices. But it’s bad form, old chap. Seeds and fruit, their usual diet, are generally abundant and widely distributed. Even when chimpanzees hunt meat, at considerable risk to the hunters’ own well-being, the successful hunters typically let out a distinctive call to attract other chimpanzees. The hunters bring their catch to the ground, where a feeding cluster forms, with other chimps all around them begging and whimpering for scraps.
Human hunter-gatherers do much the same thing. Among the Indi- ans she studied in the Brazilian rain forest, the American anthropologist and primatologist Katharine Milton writes, “Individuals do not amass surplus . . . no hunter fortunate enough to kill a large game animal assumes that all this food is his or belongs only to his immediate family.” A big kill is an occasion for the whole tribe to gather together for a party-a feeding cluster.”
–
I have not once claimed that animals experience the same exact emotions or cognitions as human beings. I have only attempted to show that there are similarities in some species – and glaringly obvious ones, at that.
I believe that places like Seaworld are a spit in the face to God’s creation. That may sound harsh, but that’s the way I feel.
The same can be said of factory farms and industrial fisheries, even though fish, cows and even pigs are significantly less intelligent than the dolphin family. I have the luxury to fish and hunt and buy meat from local, organic farmers. Most people are forced, either by ignorance, economic necessity or both, to subsidize these operations. In the case of Zoos, I believe ignorance is the overriding factor. Most people don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. However, this is changing. The comments on the SeaWorld tragedy are about 100-1 in favor of shutting down these abominations.
My hope is that as peak oil looms, the human race will return to a more respectful relationship with God’s creation. More decentralization and (real) democracy, less emphasis on the almighty dollar. Lest we forget, love of money is the root of all evil. Local farmers can return to prosperity in place of grotesque corporations like Monsanto, who rob farmers of their work via genetic engineering and monopoly (reinforced by trade agreements like NAFTA). The industrial fishing and whaling industries will be replaced by something more sensible. And zoos will become wildlife re-habilitation centers rather than sinister circuses. Utopian? Perhaps, but I prefer Utopia to extinction.
Frankly, there isn’t much difference between the Orca industry and forcing Grizzly bears to ride around on unicycles with dumb looking hats. In the 21st century, we should be past this.
If people really have the need to feel what it’s like to be close to an Orca, or a lion, we are technologically advanced enough to simulate this experience. The opening ceremonies for the Vancouver Olympics demonstrate this.
Free the God-forsaken creatures, and let’s put God back in the equation.
March 1st, 2010 | 7:02 am
Wesley: The article was pretty clear that Sea World “erred” by not following biblical rules and killing the animal. What’s interesting is that if an animal kills a human the animal gets a second chance; but if an animal has been the victim of bestiality it’s put to death along with the perpetrator (Leviticus 20:15-16) — no mercy whatsoever — suggesting that the two were complicit in the act.
Wesley J. Smith Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 9:51 am
Talk to Moses. Out of my jurisdiction and irrelevant.
March 1st, 2010 | 7:13 am
Dear Mr. Smith,
Perhaps there is another concern, that mirrors the one you have highlighted. What worries me is not so much that human categories are being applied to animals, but that the way animals are characterized will be applied to human beings.
The popular press reports frequently the interpretations of studies which show that various aspects of free will can be seen as influenced or dominated by innate biological mechanisms. That is, impulsivity, a tendency to violence, poor decision-making, etc.
At the same time that anthropomorphic projections of human-ness are applied to animals, human beings are being stripped of their God-given conscience by ideologies which seek to deny individual responsibility.
When human murderers –and I mean cold, deliberate premeditated murderers– are nearing the dates of their scheduled executions, we hear about all of the factors which supposedly resulted in irresistable compulsions for which they should not be held responsible. Because there is to these apologists for criminality, no free will.
There is for them only the State (or as they like to say “the people”) and the imperatives of the State. For which we are in fact less than animals.
March 1st, 2010 | 4:53 pm
My heavens Craig, you sure have a lot of free time.
Most of what you posted was the same you posted before, so pardon me for not responding to it in detail. However, there was one particularly egregious bit:
Padraig: “We’re talking about an animal whose main food gathering activity is snatching baby seals off beaches. We are a heck of a lot more compassionate toward orcas than they are towards us.”
Scott: “It wasn’t until I read this passage that I realized – to put it bluntly – that you have no idea what you’re talking about. ”
This is what I’m talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtqTT7Dp6v8
A human does anything like that, PETA’s out in force.
And the orcas only leave skin divers alone because they don’t look tasty, and we’re not trying to eat their young like the sharks do. Animals do have pretty clear motivations for their actions, and they’re pretty easy to see once you stop anthropomorphizing them.
March 2nd, 2010 | 1:20 pm
It’s ridiculous what we, moral animals, do with other animals. Our egoistic feeling of having fun, makes animals like this Orca living in terrible conditions. This Orca and all other healthy animals kept in captivity, should be set free in the wild. They all deserve to be free, like us!
March 4th, 2010 | 7:14 am
Refusing to respond to nine-tenths of my comments, and calling me “Craig”, the poster known as “Padraig” takes leave of his senses:
Scott: “It wasn’t until I read this passage that I realized – to put it bluntly – that you have no idea what you’re talking about. ”
This is what I’m talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtqTT7Dp6v8
A human does anything like that, PETA’s out in force.”
So killing baby seals is an indication of moral degeneracy? If that’s the case, I have disturbing news for you, buddy. We kill A LOT of baby seals every year, undoubtedly more than Orcas. And in pretty brutal ways.
Again, the dolphin family treats us with respect. Why not return the favor?
You have no argument on this subject. Admit defeat, and move on.
March 6th, 2010 | 2:16 pm
[...] by condemning them to die for intentionally killing other humans. In this context, consider this First Things blog post, which is titled "Killer Whale Tragedy Illustrates Moral Difference Between Humans and [...]
March 8th, 2010 | 2:31 pm
“This Orca and all other healthy animals kept in captivity, should be set free in the wild. They all deserve to be free, like us!”
So you’re okay with millions of animals dying and upsetting the ecosystem by releasing tons of animals that were not there previously?
The majority of animals kept in captivty, whether they be cats, dogs, horses, reptiles or orcas, cannot return to the wild. Captive bred animals are much more docile than their wild counterparts, plus their immune systems are not the same as a wild animal. Just look at what happened when they tried to release Keiko. Millions of dollars wasted and an orca dead because people enjoy projecting their emotions onto animals. to make themselves feel warm and fuzzy inside.
A domestic cat probably has a better chance of surviving out the wild than a captive orca does.
“So killing baby seals is an indication of moral degeneracy? If that’s the case, I have disturbing news for you, buddy. We kill A LOT of baby seals every year, undoubtedly more than Orcas. And in pretty brutal ways. ”
No, his point is is that when humans kill seals, they are villainized and seen as evil, yet when an animal kills it is perfectly fine, even when the animal is not killing for food.
I have a cat that enjoyed chewing the back legs off of baby rabbits and leaving them to die. Now, if a human was doing that, they would be arrested for animal cruelty. We kept her indoors to prevent that from happening anymore, because I am the one responsible for my animal’s actions, not the animal itself.
Animals have no concept of morality.
March 8th, 2010 | 10:41 pm
I think that killer whales has to be free not in cages. What if they put you in a small cage for you. you have to do tricks for food and i hate when their treading them like their pet and don’t forget that they are killer whales they eat meat.
April 19th, 2010 | 12:52 pm
Moral agents are demonstrably not the only ones deserving of rights in society. Children and the mentally-handicapped are both not moral agents. We extend rights to them without expecting any in return.
Morality, by definition, does not rely on a quid-pro-quo, since it is altruism rather than self-interest.
Animals, like children and the mentally-handicapped, have a much-reduced understanding of what we might agree to be “ethical behavior” but are not in any way discounted from receiving ethical treatment in proportion to their own interests.
Wesley J. Smith Reply:
April 19th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
DW: That meme won’t fly. Moral agency is inherent in the human species. That some of us don’t have it, doesn’t change their humanity. In contrast, moral agency is not true of any animal species. We need to treat humans equally, regardless of individual capacities, or universal human rights collapse. We need not treat animals like children, because they are morally and rationally distinct from us. Indeed, only humans have the duty to treat animals humanely. No animal has a concomitant duty to us, nor to each other. Hence, animal rights becomes nonsensical as a wholly and unequivocally one way street.
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