Edward Moore Kennedy, 1932-2009
My baby-hood crush on John Kennedy, and my little-girl admiration for Robert Kennedy had kept Ted Kennedy on my periphery. I use this photo because it is the flashing image I always get when I think of Ted, because it was my first real notice of him.
I remember being 11 years old and watching Kennedy make a statement on television after the death of Mary Jo Kopechne. What seems vivid in my memory is something I am no longer sure of: was he wearing a neckbrace during that speech? Perhaps that was another time, or my memory is fouled up from all these years of news-watching.
I do recall his voice quivering as he suggested that his family seemed to be under some terrible curse. With the 1968 murder of RFK still fresh in our Catholic memories, and JFK’s death still a long-opened wound, my parents were moved by Kennedy’s tremors. I was moved. My mother who, I must admit, had a bit of a morbid streak about her, counted off the Kennedy tragedies, “Joe, killed in the war; Kathleen killed in an airplane; Rosemary institutionalized after a botched lobotomy….JFK assassinated…Bobby assassinated…what family can endure this? His mother is a woman of sorrows.”
Well, true that. The loss of one child is something a parent never gets over. Rose Kennedy lost 4 in their prime. And being married to Joe Kennedy could not have been a bed of roses, either.
Someone emailed me a moment ago wondering how long it would take for Kennedy’s death to be politicized – specifically by the left, specifically in order to push through the rapidly souring Obamacare, and “wouldn’t that be a dreadful and classless thing?”
The answers, at least on Twitter, are “immediately,” and “yes, dreadful and classless, but nothing less than Kennedy himself would have expected and participated in”; it is what politics has devolved to, after all. Even as he lay dying, the “Liberal Lion” was trying to finagle a means of protecting his Senate seat for his party. Or, someone was. And already on Twitter, the Obamacare proponents are insisting that Kennedy’s death will “give Obama the push he needs, to pass his plan.”
Well…maybe. But Kennedy’s death -outside of the coastal enclaves- will not have the drama and sentimental heft some might expect. Given a grim diagnosis in May of 2008, Kennedy managed, with the help of some of the best care available, to see another Christmas, another spring and even another summer. It’s entirely possible that what Kennedy’s death will really do is bring into stark relief the fact that under Obamacare, this overweight 77 year-old man with liking for the drink would probably have faced treatment rationing and an offer for “physician aid-in-dying”. Kennedy’s death will emphasize yet again that our elected “public servants” enjoy one of the best health insurance plans in the world, while they are trying to force something much less comprehensive (and life-affirming) onto their constituents.
I expect, though, that beyond health care, and beyond the inevitable revisions, hagiography and histrionics in the press (and the competition between the Clintons and the Obamas as to who can best-use this moment) Ted Kennedy’s death will do what every Kennedy death does: shine a spotlight on Catholicism, its rituals and rites and rubrics. There will be lots of people -both Catholic and non-Catholic- who will declare themselves “shocked and scandalized” that Kennedy would be given a Mass of Christian Burial. Some will declare that he should have been “thrown out of the church” a long time ago; others will insist that his Funeral Mass brings shame to us.
Some will focus on his personal sins -the assumed repentance or lack of same (of which they will likely have no real knowledge, just hunches) and some will presume to know the state of his soul, but those will be the inveterates, working from long-habit. Most Christians will, I think, understand that “the favors of the Lord are not exhausted, his mercies not over and done” and will simply pray in hopes that Kennedy had made a contrite and humble confession of his failings and sins.
Others, of course, will suggest that Kennedy’s pro-abortion positions, in and of themselves, should damn him forever in the eyes of God.
Thankfully, God knows more, and sees more, than the rest of us, because eventually we’ll all need to count on his mercy, as we face his justice. For all that we know of Kennedy, there is much we do not know. A family member who works with the very poor once told me that when he was in a real fix and unable to find help for, for instance, a sick child in need of surgery, a phone call to Kennedy’s office would set the “Irish Mafia” of professional people -doctors, lawyers, pilots and such- into brisk motion. I think an examination of the life of every “great” person (and I mean “great” in terms of power and influence) will expose deep flaws and surprising episodes of generosity.
As I wrote here, “the quiet altruism of a public man is always overshadowed by the noise of his sins,” and, “Is it arrogance and entitlement that keeps a public man of public failings turning, and turning again, to the Mass, the sacraments, and the tribe, or is it a kind of humility, a declaration of need that supersedes riches and power and all the consolations of the world?”
So, upon hearing of his passing, I say “ah, he’s gone, then,” make a Sign of the Cross, and think of what C.S. Lewis wrote of Purgatory:
Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ – ‘Even so, sir.’
I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don’t think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.
My favorite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am ‘coming round’,’ a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out with this.’ This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed.”
What can one do when one is likely unfit for heaven, but possesses just enough charity and love to stave off hell? Let us suffer the purgation, then. I am certain that someday I, in all my sins, will end up there, too.
I feel badly for Caroline Kennedy, for whom Ted was a beloved father figure, and for his kids. Beyond that? One senses this was in some ways a tormented man -but then we are all, in some ways tormented. This article looks at Kennedy’s wish to end his days well. May he rest in peace.
Funny, it sort of feels like “an end” to 1969. Finally.
Afterthought: It is rather remarkable that Kennedy died just as Obama hit the Vineyard; a spectacular opportunity for Obama to, as president, re-dazzle some of the country as their attention is taken off his failing policies. I mentioned earlier that the Clintons and Obamas would be vying for beneficial airtime. Obama, being president (and the press’ darling) will benefit most as he “leads the nation” through it’s “mourning” is I guess how they’ll phrase it.
Reaction Roundup:
Legal Insurrection: Rush was Right. The insane logic that says “because of sentiment, this atrocious bill must now pass. Let’s add to this $14trillion dollar hole” Wow. That’s good governance!
Ed Morrissey: The Captain’s Usual Fair Fare
Abortion: Kennedy did not always support it
NY Times: Kennedy’s death raises issues of succession. I thought that question was settled by Kennedy himself a few years ago!
Michelle Malkin: De Profundis
James Pethokoukis: No Trillion Dollar Healthcare Tribute for Ted
Peggy Noonan: Recalls lines from Kennedy (from 2005) “the whole thing is going to fall apart.”
Instapundit: Reactions from Ireland
Boston Globe: Goes all-out in sloppy Irish sentiment
Jim Geraghty: We would never want to walk in his shoes
Brutally Honest: “God’s mercy on the man”
John J. Miller: a rock star for liberals
Althouse: Will Kennedy’s death justify a return to the “shut up and obey on Obamacare” tactic?
GOP Leaders: Mourn his passing
Jazz Shaw: Kennedy, good and bad
Kathryn J. Lopez: Remembers Sitting next to Kennedy
God: He left a comment here basically telling me I am loathsome, but since he did not leave a real email address, I deleted him. Rules are rules.
Ed Driscoll: a good roundup
Bookworm: Wasn’t going to comment but finds Democrat reactions demanding one
JWF (and many emails) ask: Will this be another Wellstone memorial?. Well, it won’t be now! They’ll guard against that, aided by Catholic ritual.
Kim Priestap: Wonders about Wellstoning Kennedy as well.
Lawmakers react
Kennedy Death Puts Dynasty in Doubt
Confederate Yankee: goes provocative. Very.
UPDATES:
Deacon Greg: Who Can Have a Catholic Funeral
Nick Gillespie: The Good things Kennedy did
Causa Nostae Laetitiae: Writes of her gratitude to Kennedy, and it’s good.
Damian Thompson: His Opponents will miss him. No doubt.
Banned in Boston: No conservative perspectives in Beantown, today
Michael Kelly: An old piece on Kennedy, I’d put off reading it for a few days, myself
Roger L. Simon: Thinking of Kennedy via Europe
Baseball Crank: Kennedy the Warhorse
Catholic News Agency: A mixed Catholic Legacy
Klavan: Bye, Ted
Joe Carter: Kennedy’s thoughts on faith
Jonah Goldberg: RIP; WHO is politicizing this?
Discomfort:With the Adulation We are addicted to wretched excess.
Inside Catholic: Rose Kennedy on Faith, Mary and the Assassinations.
Pewsitter: Good Ted, Bad Ted
ProEcclesia: Who is politicizing?
Sr. Maureen Fiedler: He made me proud to be a Catholic. And some reactions to that
The American Catholic: A huge roundup of Catholic reaction, from right and left
Past posts:
The Crucible of Ted Kennedy
Kennedy, Obama, Hillary’s Screams
Kennedy’s Hard Road, and the Privilege of Prayer
Ted Kennedy, Our Father & Me
August 26th, 2009 | 5:21 am | #1
[...] Scalia, a.k.a. the Anchoress, has an in-depth look at Ted Kennedy’s life titled, Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Ted Kennedy Dead at 77Ted Kennedy Died At [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 5:23 am | #2
Requiescat in pace Ted Kennedy.
August 26th, 2009 | 7:50 am | #3
I have not a particle of respect for Sen. Kennedy, yet I can’t help but feel very sorry for him. He was given a terrible example of manhood by his reprehensible father. And yet God’s mercy is vast and mysterious – I will leave the senator’s soul to Him.
I will say the Office of the Dead for him tonight, and pray for his family members.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:13 am | #4
The greatest blessing of being a Christian is that I am no one’s judge. It is not up to me. My opinion of the conduct of another has no weight, attaches no stigma, and is irrelevant. What a blessed relief!
With that said, I will observe that the late Sen. Kennedy led a life which was not a good example to others. His divorce, his immorality, his support of abortion, his pose as a rescuer of the downtrodden while living a life of privilege, all mark him as a person not to be imitated. He was not noted as a man of personal benevolence; I find little record of his individual philanthropy.
The Catholic Church has a chronic problem: what to do about those who deny the faith (as expressed by the Holy See) while remaining full communicant members. This was evident in Chicago (and other venues) when Mafiosi were given Catholic funerals and buried in sacred ground. It was also seen in the shameful hiding of the molesting done by certain Priests.
To whom much is given, from him much will be required. It is the Talent parable.
My prayer is that Pope Benedict will come to grips with this chasm between belief and conduct, and insist on a higher standard for those to whom the young people look for examples and guidance.
The Church must clean her own house, in order to better set an example (and be salt and light) to the world.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:47 am | #5
My husband’s father had the same type of brain tumor as Ted Kennedy. He died in 1999 just 5 months after his diagnosis. If my father in law’s experience is any indication, Ted Kennedy probably underwent a good bit of his purgatorial suffering ahead of time.
May their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:53 am | #6
While I think this man has a lot of circles to square with his maker that is a matter left to his maker alone. You remind me of my place.
Thanks
August 26th, 2009 | 8:56 am | #7
The Church has grappled with the problem of public sinners from very early times. One question from the Roman period was, “can Christians who offered sacrifice to the gods be forgiven”? The Church early on said “yes” and honestly, that’s one thing I love about the Catholic Church. It does not shun sinners, but keeps on calling them to repentance.
As for Senator Kennedy, I don’t know the state of his soul, but I can only hope he was granted the grace of final repentance. May God have mercy on him.
August 26th, 2009 | 9:20 am | #8
Any recommended reading about the Kennedys?
August 26th, 2009 | 9:22 am | #9
Death is the one great equalizer, and maybe grief is the second. Most of us have stood where his loved ones stand today, and we will all stand where Senator Kennedy now stands.
Remember those who best knew and loved him. Remember that we are no better or worse. And that none of us are any less unworthy of the love of our incredible, compassionate heavenly Father, and of the horrible price that Christ willingly paid for our salvation.
August 26th, 2009 | 9:41 am | #10
I find this post so wonderful. It is easy to be everything you wrote, judge, accepting of his actions and yet in the end ONLY GOD has the last say. I leave it up to Him. I said a prayer for him. May he rest in peace.
August 26th, 2009 | 9:45 am | #11
Of course I do not KNOW the fate of Ted Kennedy’s soul any more than I KNOW the fate of the souls of the terrorists who flew then planes into the World Trade Center. But in both cases I could make a guess.
August 26th, 2009 | 9:49 am | #12
[...] Anchoress has the best reflection and round-up on Kennedy’s death I’ve read. Posted in: Ted Kennedy Send to a Friend Printer Friendly comments [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 9:54 am | #13
Regarding recommended reading about the Kennedys, Father Raymond J. de Souza contrasted the lives of Ted Kennedy and his late sister Eunice (who died in the past month) here in A Tale of Two Kennedys:
To me, Eunice is the real hero and “lion” based upon how she lived her Catholic faith in private and in the public square.
But I agree that all of us must rely on God’s mercy and the primary thing that should be said about Ted Kennedy’s death is, rest in peace and prayers go out to his family.
FWIW, I doubt that this turn of events is going to have an impact on the trajectory of public opinion about the health care bill, although Obama and company will certainly give it a shot. It is ironic that Obama happens to be in Kennedy country right now.
August 26th, 2009 | 9:58 am | #14
I remember the old saying repeated by Cardinal O’Connor once about the soldier falling mortally to the ground, “‘twixt the horse’s saddle and the ground, mercy sought, and mercy found.”
[Big, big fan of O' Connor, here - love that, thanks! admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:02 am | #15
Well-said! My aunt’s cancer and Kennedy’s seem to have been the same. She lived for about the same length of time, I think … not much difference. And there was likely a great deal of Purgatorial suffering involved.
Our family will pray for Kennedy’s soul tonight in the Rosary, and I’ll be praying for him any time I think of him today. My hope, which I’ve held since it was announced that he had cancer, has been that he would be able to receive the Sacraments in the end, and that his last Confession would be a good one. (It’s what I hope for myself, too, incidentally.)
May God have mercy on his soul, and may his soul and all the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace.
August 26th, 2009 | 10:08 am | #16
I saw Kennedy speak once in San Francisco in 1980, when he was contesting that year’s nomination with President Carter. It was vastly disconcerting: the speech was punctuated every several seconds with what I can only describe as a movie mad scientist cackle. My colleagues and I (it was noon, and we worked just a few blocks away from the venue) wondered if perhaps he was somehow the worse for strong drink and/or prescription drugs. It actually put me off voting for him in the California primary, as I’d been considering until that point (in the general election I went with John Anderson, a vote I’d gladly take back, not realizing then that to spurn the lesser of two evils was necessarily to gorge the greater).
August 26th, 2009 | 10:21 am | #17
[...] Kennedy Dead at 77 GayPatriot: In Memoriam, Edward Moore Kennedy The Anchoress, First Things: Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory Below The Beltway: Ted Kennedy Dies At 77 The Xtremist: Ted Kennedy’s Ghost Will Be Spotted [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:24 am | #18
Well said, Anchoress. Feels like the passing of an era, both good and bad. He was personally generous in many private acts. He could go at it hammer and tong with his colleagues across the aisle, then go out for laughs… over drinks, of course. I don’t agree with Teddy’s politics (though I did at one time), but he served this country for most of his life. He also buried too many loved ones, siblings, nephew, who died young. I don’t excuse any of his sins or flaws – he was deeply flawed and he certainly knew it. He was exactly the kind of person, along with tax collectors, etc. that Jesus would have spent time with, the kind of person He came to heal. I pray that He is doing just that.
[You are so right; a great comment, Diane -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:28 am | #19
I won’t shed any tears for him. God have mercy on his soul, as I would have Him have on mine.
That said, I’m glad he’s out of the system. One less pro-abortion Catholic in Washington.
Quid sum miser tunc dicturus,
quem patronum rogaturus,
cum vix iustus sit securus?
August 26th, 2009 | 10:31 am | #20
Fare thee well, murdering drunkard. Fare thee well, scumbag sycophant. Fare thee well receiver of glove money. Fare thee well, child of the rich who deftly avoided consequences of your actions, but lo was rather rewarded for your crimes. Fare thee well, for in thine wisdom, you helped push Americans like me aside in favor of unqualified affirmative action hires, criminal illegal immigrants, and incompetent H1B workers, hobbling our future. Fare thee well, barrel shaped lard lion of lies and largesse.
August 26th, 2009 | 10:31 am | #21
Speaking of politicizing the man’s death, I can’t help but think that your afterthought was maybe a teeny bit in poor taste.
[Yes, probably. Cynical, too. I plead a terrible insomnia and throw myself on the mercy of the readers!
-admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:35 am | #22
[...] and rites and rubrics?” Is Kennedy bound for purgatory? The Anchoress weighs in with “Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory“. Posted by the occasional buddha in Christianity, Politics on August 26th, 2009 10:35 [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:46 am | #23
From what I know about him he wasn’t really my cup of tea- I don’t think I am quite so left-wing, though I do think his concern for the working class was genuine & being priviliged is no hindrance to having an interest in the welfare of the masses. Orwell & Attlee, for example, were both in this category, of the top of my head.
I am glad to see Malkin exercising restraint. I am dreading Margaret Thatcher’s death, because she was such a polarising figure (her name is mud in the house I grew up in & amongst most people in this city, & I dislike her… more mildly than a lot of people I know, but still a fair bit, while amongst the middle class & a few others she is revered).
We saw it with Reagan, with undignified behaviour from Democratic Underground “contributors”, & it will happen with Clinton & so on.
Best to go & live in a cave for a month when the even bigger deals start dying. It is one of the uglier aspects of politics but I suppose it’s only fair that passions are aroused when the livelihoods & the very survival or death of millions is at stake.
August 26th, 2009 | 10:49 am | #24
One thought:
Robert Novak, who died just recently, remarked on Senator Kennedy’s generosity after he (Novak) was diagnosed with a brain tumor. It may very well be that their passings were timed providentially, so that one could plead the case of the other…
August 26th, 2009 | 10:55 am | #25
Some things I said over at Some Have Hats -
Two observations: 1) Like Arthur’s Camelot, the Kennedy version didn’t exist either. 2) I hope Mary Jo was there to personally dispatch him to Hell.
I admire the fact that there are those of you that can pray for Ted’s soul. But, since he never took responsibility for Mary Jo when he was alive and paid no real price for his actions, my faith tells me that God MUST extract the punishment that his fellow men failed to enact because of the Kennedy name and privilege.
Donte Stallworth of the Cleveland Browns killed a man in a traffic accident in March of this year. He pleaded guilty, served 24 days in jail and is currently suspended by the NFL (without pay) for at least a year. And even THAT is an outrage. Twenty-four days for a human life!
Ted didn’t even do THAT. But he DID get 40 more years in the Senate, 40 more years of adulation, 40 more years promoting infanticide and ruination of the church.
God bless you all. You are all probably a better person than me. But I can not pray for Ted’s eternal soul.
August 26th, 2009 | 10:57 am | #26
[...] like to point out something, though, about Kennedy’s health care, since word is out that the Dems have instantly leaped upon his death to advance their health care agenda. If anyone among the population is paying attention, this [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 11:02 am | #27
[...] The Anchoress– I remember being 11 years old and watching Kennedy make a statement on television after the death of Mary Jo Kopechne. What seems vivid in my memory is something I am no longer sure of: was he wearing a neckbrace during that speech? Perhaps that was another time, or my memory is fouled up from all these years of news-watching. [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 11:04 am | #28
A very nice article, spot-on….FYI, though: The Catholic Church has decided purgatory doesn’t exist (just this year)…..Its either heaven or hell, thats it. I wonder if Ted and Mary Jo will end up in the same place….
[We still teach Purgatory, Dirk - admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 11:04 am | #29
[...] Anchoress: Ted Kennedy, Health Care & Purgatory Legal Insurrection: Rush was Right. Ed Morrissey: The Captain’s Usual Fair Fare Michelle Malkin: [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 11:21 am | #30
Besides the death of Mary Jo Kepechnie, with the fake neckbrace on him) afterwards) and the Rape trial of his nephew that he helped defend, I often wonder who was and what happened to the poor slob that ted paid to take a college exam for him. Because of his being a Kennedy he was not kicked out of school, was admitted to law school and the rest is history.
August 26th, 2009 | 11:26 am | #31
TWO SENTENCES after speculating that Kennedy’s death “may” be politicized by the left, you write this:
“It’s entirely possible that what Kennedy’s death will really do is bring into stark relief the fact that under Obamacare, this overweight 77 year-old man with liking for the drink would probably have faced treatment rationing and an offer for “physician aid-in-dying”. Kennedy’s death will emphasize yet again that our elected “public servants” enjoy one of the best health insurance plans in the world, while they are trying to force something much less comprehensive (and life-affirming) onto their constituents.”
Have you no sense of self-awareness? You should try channeling some of the energy you devote to religious piety into some modest attempt at intellectual honesty.
[Ah, "Mr. Wonderful" lectures about "self-awareness." I love it. I have plenty of self-awareness, thanks, and was perfectly aware of the irony that I was discussing the politics of Kennedy's death two lines after sharing what I'd received in an email. I also mentioned that ala Twitter, that door had already been opened by the left (see here) since they were already discussing it on twitter (and everywhere else) I felt perfectly okay about adding my two cents. Ted Kennedy, himself, would do it; he was a political animal. I was also, in the quote above, being intellectually honest. For all that we're already hearing Nancy Pelosi imply that because Kennedy died, we should pass Obamacare, I suggest in good-faith that his death may bring a different awareness to people. -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 11:30 am | #32
For all that we know of Kennedy, there is much we do not know.
Hence the problem of public sin/failings, and (perhaps, presumably?) private repentence — the stain of scandal still remains.
After a notorious career of politicizing way too much, after killing more than one person, if not literally, then figuratively by defamation of character by vicious and false attacks, after this, something more than a private, publicly unheard, “I’m sorry” would seem to be necessary. Indeed, to continue such attacks after death, by the politicization of your own funeral, would seem to go against the idea of even private repentence.
We should indeed strive to always presume the best of people – it would be uncharitable to always think ill of them – but we cannot turn a blind eye to the reality of history. That would be advancing a false charity at the cost of truth. After a career of open, notorious, and public wrongs — objective wrongs, such that we can say properly that they were wrongs — “for all that we know of Kennedy, there is much we do not know.”
There is much we do not know. I would like to know, both for my sake, the sake of my obligation to charity, and for his sake. At his death, he still had an obligation to mitigate the public scandal that he caused all too often. I fear that, after his death, we still will not see mitigation, but aggravation.
Still, we are all sinners, including me. So who am I to point fingers?
May the God of Divine Mercy open His arms and receive him.
August 26th, 2009 | 11:41 am | #33
Cherished Anchoress: I am grateful to your fine example of charity and humility at this time of temptation. And I am grateful to the Catholic Church which teaches me that I must be fully prepared to take my seat in Heaven between Hitler and Jack the Ripper if God is satisfied that they merit His mercy. I do have concerns about people whose sins were public and unambiguous, though, and I wish that the Church would revive the medieval Penitential Manual to set policy about how to deal with them. All repentent sinners must do penance, and we have a long tradition of public penance for public sins. We no longer require people to be cast out of the cathedral by the south door, and to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem (not a bad idea though), but in the case of politicians who have made a career of actively supporting (and therefore abetting) such things as legal abortion, it seems to me that the Church could require of the dying penitent a public statement repudiating that sinful conduct, as part of the mandated penance. (By the same token, the Catholic faithful would benefit from the clarity of public excommunication of politicians who advocate legalizing or increasing the scope of abortion — then at least the presence of a priest at the bedside of the dying would be invested with some definite meaning.) We can learn Charity from more sources than just the Church — clarity is harder to come by, and should be the Church’s great gift. Naturally, it falls far short of the clairvoyance required to read men’s souls, but it could certainly provide better guidance on the consequences of public sins and the abetting of moral corruption. Up here in Canada we know we must wish for Pierre Trudeau to rest in peace, but his fellow Catholics, who watched him lead the transformation of the country into an arid Euro-style secularist state do not rest so peacefully about his Catholic funeral.
[Actually, I'm pretty comfortable with things as they are...the Catholic funeral may give scandal to some, but it communicates the truth that God is merciful (and just) and that no one may presume to know another's soul. I would hate to see some sort of required public penance requirement put into place which (to my way of thinking) would tempt people into doing precisely that; judging the state of another's soul. It would tempt us to a terrible pride that would not benefit us. -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 11:48 am | #34
I know we can expect the Wellstoning of Senator Kennedy’s funeral. And this is not something that should happen. It shows a lack of dignity, a lack of real compassion, a lack of human understanding of grief, I think.
That said, I feel pain for his family. Michael Graham speaks on this moment the best, I believe.
August 26th, 2009 | 11:49 am | #35
[...] Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 12:06 pm | #36
His support of abortion; his public womanizing; his non-Church sanctioned divorce; his remarriage – all of these would argue against the propriety of a church burial. The fact that he was a Kennedy – trumps all.
I am praying for his family who – unsurprisingly – loved him despite his foibles. Who else did they have?
August 26th, 2009 | 12:39 pm | #37
Thank God there is Purgatory. Without it, heaven would likely be a pretty empty place since very few of us die in that state of perfect grace and holiness which is necessary for such a place of perfect grace and holiness.
Purgatory, or rather, that process of purging imperfections, of purifying us, really should not be all that controversial or disputed. Do some really believe that the Cross will have no effect on them and that they simply instantly materialize in heaven? Are they already that perfect? Are they beyond the judgment of Jesus Christ?
Or must that transition from earth to heaven necessarily involve the application of the Passion and Resurrection to our own being, a purification of our sinful selves by Jesus through the Holy Spirit so that we might be worthy of heaven?
If we were to all think about it, rather than reflexively rejecting all things “Catholic,” we would see that most do, in fact, believe in the existence of, and necessity for, “Purgatory.”
August 26th, 2009 | 12:41 pm | #38
I am going to pray for strength, as the efforts to foist government healthcare on Americans will be redoubled in the name of the faux golden age called “Camelot”.
I am going to pray for the people organizing the Tea Parties, many of whom have made many personal sacrifices are tired after carrying on the efforts to save our liberties since the first event in February. The stories of the townhalls and efforts will now be muted, to eulogize the death of this mere politician.
I will pray that the Kennedy curse has ended, so their family can find peace and PRIVACY! I also pray that that the curse of Americans having to bow at the alter of all that is Kennedy has also concluded.
August 26th, 2009 | 12:41 pm | #39
One of the best measures of a man is what his co-workers think of him. This is especially so in the Senate where people can serve 20 years routinely, or, like Kennedy, for 40 years and more. No man can hide much of anything about himself over that length of time.
So listen to what the Senators have to say about him. They are the best informed.
[One assumes that every senator will be kind in their remarks. It would be unstatesmanlike to do anything else. And, as I said in my piece, Kennedy had his generous ways. I doubt any of that will justify the hagiography we're already seeing in the press, where someone just declared Obama "the last Kennedy brother..." -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 12:53 pm | #40
How long will it be before some idiot steps forward to promote Kennedy for Sainthood. Don’t laugh. One good thing, surely we are done with the Kennedys in politics.
August 26th, 2009 | 12:56 pm | #41
While no fan of Edward Kennedy, I was beside my first husband who died from the same type of cancer at the age of 30. I would not wish it upon my worst personal enemy, or on anyone else.
For his actions, Lord have mercy.
For his inaction, Christ have mercy.
For his fault and failings, Lord have mercy.
O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen.
August 26th, 2009 | 12:59 pm | #42
I believe it is the existence of Limbo that has been called into question, not Purgatory.
August 26th, 2009 | 1:06 pm | #43
Bender said:
“Purgatory, or rather, that process of purging imperfections, of purifying us, really should not be all that controversial or disputed. Do some really believe that the Cross will have no effect on them and that they simply instantly materialize in heaven? Are they already that perfect? Are they beyond the judgment of Jesus Christ? ”
Well, no, Bender, I don’t believe that the Cross has no effect on me. I just believe that it’s already had it’s cleansing effect and that as I live my life in response to God’s personal sacrifice for me I am changed, made new, and prepared for heaven. I am, as the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 12:1-2, daily presenting myself to God a living sacrifice and being transformed by the renewing of my mind. It’s a struggle not to conform to the world – to, for example, walk away from the gossip at the water cooler because it’s hurtful to the one gossiped about – and I struggle with it daily, but I am a living sacrifice and have been made holy and acceptable to God by the blood of Christ which covers me in all my unholiness. Daily, sometimes minute to minute, I bring my old self – my old sin – to the cross and beg God to forgive me for allowing it to rear its ugly head again and to help me to turn from it. At the moment of my death, I believe God will not see the old me, but the new creature that His Spirit has made of me because His Word made flesh dwells in me and changes me daily from the inside out. I’m not perfect, but praise God, I am in a state of grace.
August 26th, 2009 | 1:08 pm | #44
The Anchoress wondered about the neck brace. I do not recall him wearing one in 1969, and think the photo above was taken after he was injured in the crash of a private plane in 1964.
August 26th, 2009 | 1:13 pm | #45
As a non-Catholic I do not believe in purgatory.
I do believe though that if someone confesses his sins to our Lord and Savior and accepts that He is the Only Begotten Son of the Only God and that He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, was crucified for our sins and not any He committed, was buried and rose again on the third day, that that person will be in heaven.
God has perfect forgetfulness of our sins when we confess them and ask forgiveness and repent of them.
Yes, we will have to answer for our lives as Christians after we accepted the above beliefs, but not as punishment except for the bestowing of crowns to give back to Jesus, but we will still be forever in heaven.
It is not my place or the place of any other human being alive today to judge the state of anyone else’s soul. That job has been delegated to Jesus Himself.
Because I’m not Catholic, I cannot pray for his soul, as I believe he was responsible for the state of his soul while he was alive and it is now too late to do anything about it.
I know he has seen his Redeemer and has probably faced Mary Jo Kopechne by now.
I think that photo was taken when he went to court, and I do not remember him having a neck collar on when he did his television “apology”.
I do hope he rests in peace in the arms of Jesus, Who can and will forgive any sin.
August 26th, 2009 | 1:16 pm | #46
In Spe Salvi (45-47), Pope Benedict speaks beautifully of Purgatory and the other Last Things, “With death, our life-choice becomes definitive—our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms. There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell[37]. On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours—people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are[38].
“46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life. For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul. What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the impurity they have amassed through life suddenly cease to matter? What else might occur?”
Benedict notes that this intermediary state for those who are neither purely holy nor have totally rejected love, truth, and God — most of us — was alluded to by Jesus, and also written of by St. Paul, “’Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire’ (1 Cor 3:12-15). In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.
“47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.”
August 26th, 2009 | 1:24 pm | #47
Statement in defence of Kennedy’s record (safe for work this time).
August 26th, 2009 | 1:44 pm | #48
(there seem to be issues with posting comments — excuse the repost)
I was interested to read your post, but you lost me at this passage, which repeats a lie being fostered by opponents of health care reform:
“It’s entirely possible that what Kennedy’s death will really do is bring into stark relief the fact that under Obamacare, this overweight 77 year-old man with liking for the drink would probably have faced treatment rationing and an offer for “physician aid-in-dying”. Kennedy’s death will emphasize yet again that our elected “public servants” enjoy one of the best health insurance plans in the world, while they are trying to force something much less comprehensive (and life-affirming) onto their constituents.”
Both Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul made it clear how appalled they were by the fact that the richest country on the planet has such horrible health care, with good care available to the well-off, but little or no care available to the poor. Plus, you focus exclusively on Ted Kennedy’s position on abortion – there are more issues than abortion in Catholic social teaching, and most of Senator Kennedy’s positions on alleviating the suffering of the poor resonate with what the Church teaches.
[There is no "issue with posting" except that you are a new poster and therefore you were held in moderation. To suggest that America has "horrible health care" is disingenuous, intellectually dishonest and false. I have friends in Canada who pay hefty insurance premiums so that -should they need serious healthcare- they can come to America and get it. In your other post you said, "the rich have good care, the poor have nothing." That is not true, either. There are medical programs in place, (S-chip, Medicaid) that serve the poor, and hospitals are not permitted to turn sick people away. - are they perfect, no not at all...but to suggest there is nothing for the poor is quite dishonest) To suggest further that either JPII or Benedict, both of whom lived under the jackboot of totalitarianism, would support large-scale government takeovers of healthcare and exert power over people's lives in order to add only 16million more to the health care roles is also disingenuous. I would suggest that JPII and Benedict would first advocate other, less draconian solutions, such as allowing insurance to be purchased across state lines, setting some limits on punitive damages, etc. While both understand that capitalism is an imperfect system that too often feeds greed, neither of them had or has anything kind to say about intrusive states. As to "focusing on abortion" I was focusing, rather, on what some people WOULD focus on. My post was never intended to be a comprehensive overview of all of Kennedy's positions and whether they aligned with Catholic teaching. It was little more than a musing that our Catholic teaching forbids we should presume to know his soul. - admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 2:28 pm | #49
[...] And if you are a Christian in general and a Catholic in particular you should too. Update: The Anchoress shows Christian Charity [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 2:34 pm | #50
What else can we say, but to feel pity for the man? He probably was in a position he didn’t want to be in the first place.
And if he’s right and all of this America we know is going down to pot now that he’s gone, maybe we should wonder why he had a role in the process of taking this country down in the first place.
But for the moment, we should leave his family alone, so they can mourn as they should. Let us hope that he had the time to reflect about his life and ask for mercy and forgiveness from God wherever he needed it.
August 26th, 2009 | 2:35 pm | #51
Réquiem ætérnam dona ei. Dómine; et lux perpétua lúceat ei. Requiéscat in pace. Amen.
August 26th, 2009 | 2:36 pm | #52
The measure of Christianity
You know, the average totally godless person still somehow manages to get through life without showing to others the mean-spiritedness that pours from every sentence of this posting. Let’s not even talk about bearing false witness against the man, as you do on several counts, and other actual ethical lapses here, and just stick to the basic decency of letting a man’s body get cold before you insult a man who can no longer fight back. Non-Christians manage that basic decency all the time, in respect to people who have often seemed much more to merit censure that Kennedy, and even to have done them some personal harm for which they might be forgiven for holding a grudge.
By professing Christianity, you are putting yourself forward as the human measure of the faith, as displaying the sort of behavior that holding that faith will bring to fruition. If you are going to call yourself a Christian, could you at least consider not acting like the folks who mocked Christ on the cross?
[I have not insulted Kennedy or told a lie about him. I have responded very decently to his death and the only reason I even went to the political is because the folks on the left (via twitter) opened that door and the press followed. I know my faults, brother, and none of them are found in your accusations. I wonder if you actually read the post, or are simply responding to some of the abbreviated and out-of-context "quotes" some leftist bloggers and writers are selecting from this piece and using to misrepresent the post in its entirety. -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 3:07 pm | #53
I am prepared to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable of the history, but wasn’t Ted Kennedy primarily responsible for Congress voting to de-fund the South Vietnamese government leading to the collapse of all our efforts and sacrifices to push back the deadly communist tyranny which prevailed? If I am correct in this, I believe he has the blood and suffering of millions of Southeast Asians on his hands – not just Mary Jo Kopechne’s. Does anyone have a reading recommendation on the Vietnam history – preferably a Victor Davis Hanson-type author?
Having said that, I make no claims to know Kennedy’s eternal fate. God’s love and mercy is beyond my puny ability to comprehend as I am astonished and baffled by the sacrifice of His Son for our benefit.
August 26th, 2009 | 3:36 pm | #54
A – What a wonderful statement that made me feel a bit sorry for his death and prayerful as to the state of his soul…
I did a little review of the role of the Church in forgiving sins, and on onechurch.org (no links for me!):
Since unforgiven sin prevents entry to God’s kingdom, and since the keys to the kingdom signify the authority to permit or deny entry, therefore the power of the keys includes the power to forgive or retain sins. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Dr. Ludwig Ott. Tan Books and Publishers, Inc. Rockford, IL. p41)
“Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Mark 18:18 RSV
“The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his.” CCC n1445.
Do you think that this would possibly mean that someone who has been excommunicated would stand in greater danger of hell?
August 26th, 2009 | 3:57 pm | #55
I agree that Christians should pray for Edward’s safe arrival into Purgatory despite his too often horrendous political career.
For me, the one bright spot came this October when the Kennedy-Brownback bill passed both houses of Congress unanimously, (funding education and support for parents of unborn babies with prenatally diagnosed conditions such as Down syndrome was passed). Senator Kennedy, a staunch pro-abort sponsored a bill which may help lower the 90% abortion rate of these precious children. As the mother of a 7 year old with Down syndrome, I offer prayers for the repose of his soul in gratitude.
His death is followed tomorrow by the feast of St Monica; the valiant mother who cried and prayed for her erring son for decades, only to witness the conversion of St Augustine, a doctor of the Church.
God willing, mother Rose Kennedy’s prayers have been similarly answered. RIP.
August 26th, 2009 | 4:11 pm | #56
The wonderful thing about God’s mercy is that he offers it right to the very last possible second. There’s no way I could tell the condition of anyone’s soul, even those close to me. I must rely on the mercy of God and continue to pray.
I truly truly hope that Mr. Kennedy took full advantage of God’s mercy. There’s no way I’m standing in judgment of his soul. Only God knows for sure and I’m thankful to leave it to him.
By the way, for our non-Catholic friends, when we say that we’re praying for someone’s soul, that means that we believe that judgment has already been passed. They might be in purgatory and if they are…they cannot help themselves. They are in a state of being purified but they are guaranteed a place in heaven. There is nothing we can do for the souls in hell but in purgatory? Yes. We can pray that their time is shortened and that they enter the Kingdom of Heaven soon.
I understand that our non-Catholic friends don’t share the same belief. If you want to understand better why we say what we do then this is a good link.
August 26th, 2009 | 4:18 pm | #57
To me, Teddy’s famous neck brace sums up everything about the Kennedy family: it’s all about appearances, perceptions of the camera, excuses, an officially-accepted narrative for followers to trumpet, getting people to feel sorry for you.
As for his soul, God is merciful, and we hope he is on his way to Heaven. But it’s a shame he threw his entire life away.
August 26th, 2009 | 4:30 pm | #58
I am happy to leave to God what is only his (judgment). But let’s be clear about some parts of his legacy: the Church in America is weaker, dissent of the Magisterium is more respectable and common, Planned Parenthood is stronger, the African-American community and is actually worse off according to every major social and economic indicator (so much for big government solutions to social ills), and he did his part to preserve a political system run by a narrow slice of elites.
To whom much is given, much is expected. How did he use his enormous influence and wealth? I don’t begrudge him his views on fighting poverty and discrimination (though 47 years later it seems clear they don’t work), but how can you reject the insistent reminders of Church leaders for over forty years? God rest his soul. Now that he sees things through Christ’s eyes, I am sure that he would be the first to urge that his life be viewed as a cautionary tale. That is how I viewed by life when I had a Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus moment when I was 33. It was truly shocking to see myself and my past now that I knew the beauty and love of Christ. Again, God rest his soul.
August 26th, 2009 | 4:57 pm | #59
[...] link is being shared on Twitter right now. @theanchoress, an influential author, said On Ted Kennedy, [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 5:05 pm | #60
I would love to know if he went to confession before he died. There is an absence of commentary on this quite important issue. Was a priest seen at the Compound? Fr. Huber was with JFK and Bobby was given rosary beads.
I can’t believe that Teddy was relying on his letter to the pope for absolution; he knew better. All I’m hearing is news from the National Enquirer that he was tortured by the memory of what happened to Mary Jo throughout his life and his last days.
It would be great to know if he humbled himself in confession before he died, after a rather long and loud history (after 1973) of undermining natural law and Catholic moral teaching on abortion.
August 26th, 2009 | 5:10 pm | #61
I can’t help but notice that you use the occasion of Ted Kennedy’s death to politicize against healthcare reform.
Dreadful. Classless.
[ Ain't it though? I'm certain you've "noticed" and left a similar scold on the pro-healthcare leftwing blogs. You should have read the pro-healthcare politicizing the left was doing on twitter within minutes of his death being announced. I figured if they could politicize it, and the press could too (have you SEEN Chris Matthews in action yet?) and if Pelosi could do it, too, then the door was open. I never said I was a saint. Or any better than the rest of the nation. -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 5:18 pm | #62
[...] Malkin, Ed Morrissey, and the Anchoress have similar reflections on Kennedy’s [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 5:19 pm | #63
ENOUGH ALREADY!!
Is the MSM really going to go wall-to-wall, nonstop, 24/7 with all this talk about Teddy Kennedy?
Enough!
Can’t the MSM say at least one word about Michael Jackson, the King of Pop? He died too, you know. It would be nice if somebody in the MSM said something about it.
August 26th, 2009 | 5:36 pm | #64
[...] Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory by Elizabeth Scalia (The Anchoress) [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 5:38 pm | #65
“Of course I do not KNOW the fate of Ted Kennedy’s soul any more than I KNOW the fate of the souls of the terrorists who flew then planes into the World Trade Center. But in both cases I could make a guess.”
You know, Howard, earlier today I scraped something sticky and smelly off the bottom of my shoe and it had more character and moral authority than your comment. Stay classy.
August 26th, 2009 | 5:52 pm | #66
Actually there is an issue. Posts that are held for moderation and then approved are not placed at the (then current) end of the comments, but rather they are inserted back where they would have appeared had they not needed to go through moderation. In a busy thread, that means that moderated comments are quite effectively hidden from readers who have already read past the insertion point by that time.
[Yeah, we're having problems with the timing, as I think you already know, Cathy!
-admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 5:55 pm | #67
Ok, I am hereby awarding Bender the Best Comment Of the Day Award!!!
August 26th, 2009 | 5:58 pm | #68
I also remember the neckbrace that Kennedy wore during the speech after Mary Jo Kopechne’s death. I later found out in a book
(Senatorial Privilege by Leo Demore) that it was just used a prop.
August 26th, 2009 | 6:44 pm | #69
I thought purgatory was for forgiven mortal sin.And to be forgiven ,you would have to be sorry,contrite, and change your way of thinking and living,stop sinning and make ammends.Do you know that helping others get abortions is a mortal sin? So, in order to go to purgatory when you die, one would have to be pro-life at death.And sorry for all sins.Anything is possible with God. Still, Millions and millions of babies are being murdered. Not pretty.
[But anything is possible with God, and we do not know what occurs between God and Man in those milleseconds between life and death. "The favors of the Lord are not exhausted; his mercies not over and done. Every morning they are renewed, so great is His faithfulness." -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 6:51 pm | #70
Supposing he faithfully participated in Divine Mercy Sunday and all it’s promises…is purgatory a moot point? If not for him, how can any of us suppose to say certain prayers on so many days, go to confession in a certain time frame, go to a particular Mass on a particular day then get our divine release. Sorry so sarcastic, but some of the hateful things my eyes glanced at from supposed good Catholics on various secular and non-secular media is wearing me down. God is the final judge and let Him think about “the wife is there so, oh, yes, they did the deed…, so he’s back in mortal sin….us outsiders, non-confessors, know the score… blah, blah, blah.” God have mercy on me a sinner.
August 26th, 2009 | 7:01 pm | #71
Will his death be politicized, yes it already has been, which of course is sad. Speak not ill of the dead, whether or not you admired him or loathed him, he is at peace now and may God have mercy on his soul as I hope he has on all here in the future.
August 26th, 2009 | 7:24 pm | #72
It’s great to know so many of you seem to know God’s will, and the contents of a person’s soul, and how their works and deeds fit together with His master plan.
Do you honestly feel you can stand in judgment of any fellow human being? Isn’t that at LEAST arrogance, if not vanity, if not bringing yourself to the level of God Himself?
[You could not possibly have actually read this post and come to that conclusion. I assume you have read some out-of-context snippet from one of several dozen leftwing sites who have willfully distorted my meaning in order to foment hate and so forth, and you have thus hurried here to vent, scold and condemn. Please read the piece and tell me where I have presumed to know God's will, the state of Ted Kennedy's soul or anything else. Please tell me where I have stood in judgment while suggesting that I will most likely end up in Purgatory, in all my sins, myself. Please demonstrate where I have brought myself to the level of God, himself? It's okay, I'll wait. admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 7:34 pm | #73
I agree with the admin. Because Jesus is all Love and full of mercy, everyone CAN receive God’s mercy and He will always give each soul a chance to be saved. Still, play it safe, and Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
August 26th, 2009 | 7:39 pm | #74
Admin/Anchoress: I wasn’t referring to your post, which was thoughtful and considered in the main.
My post was for those commentors that seem to know things hidden from the rest of us… There are some beautiful comments; which in turn make the uglier ones even worse by comparison.
August 26th, 2009 | 7:43 pm | #75
More than a few on this thread have mentioned acts of charity. Here is a little known story that I think is relevant. Phil Mickelson and Conrad Dobler.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2756572&type=story
August 26th, 2009 | 7:43 pm | #76
Done with your usual class, kindness, and humanity.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:11 pm | #77
If there is still some theological disagreement here as to the existence of “Purgatory,” either as a place or as a transitional state or as a process, perhaps we could at least agree on this — that some measure of alteration of the person is needed to enter heaven.
Here on earth, we are imperfect, all too subject to temptation, and all too inclined to give in to temptation and sin. Even when we truly desire to do good, we still occasionally are in the frustrating position of not doing the good we want, but doing the evil we do not want (Rom. 7:19). This is true even for those who have fully and completely accepted Jesus Christ and, therefore, have “already” been “saved.” We may already be saved in Christ, but we are still imperfect while here on this earth.
Surely we could not carry all those imperfections and our fallible nature into heaven? If heaven were to contain such imperfection, would it not cease to be heaven? If people in heaven are the exact same as they are here on earth, even if we consider only the “good” and the “faithful,” it would no longer be “heaven,” but would instead be “earth.” And if heaven were simply a continuation of the world, would we really want to go there?
So, we must be altered in order to “enter” heaven, we must be changed. Our imperfect and fallible nature must be made perfect. We must be remade — not merely saved, but sanctified. To be sure, having accepted Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we begin that process of sanctification, but it is not completed, as very few, if any, of us can claim to be fully and completely sanctified, i.e. holy and without sin, or inclinations thereto, for the rest of our lives until worldly death. No, to be with Jesus for eternity, our wordly selves must be altered — we must be made Christ-like.
So, forget the name or term Purgatory or purgation. Consider instead the idea of final sanctification.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:12 pm | #78
Sorry. I should have stopped myself before I hit publish. I’m not usually a scold.
I typically avoid politics. I didn’t realize this was a political blog. I followed a link here and an otherwise decent eulogy seems marred by those sentiments–you rubbed me the wrong way. But again, I apologize for leaving a negative comment. Peace.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:37 pm | #79
Yes, perhaps after a life of public sin, Kennedy made a private repentance. This would presumably have to have come on his deathbed, since it’s hard to see how the “satisfaction” aspect of the Sacrament would be satisfied with him allowing everyone to believe he still endorsed abortion. But it is at least possible.
And other things are possible. Maybe he isn’t really dead, in spite of what the news organs are saying; the family might be hushing it up. Maybe the man we thought was Kennedy was since 1972 actually an impostor. These things are POSSIBLE, however unlikely you may think them. Why not pray that he’s still alive, and this is all some sort of misunderstanding?
If you don’t pray for him to be still alive (with the corresponding hope for repentance) because everything points to him being dead, why would you pray for him to avoid Hell, when everything points to him having died unrepentant in his sins?
If, by some chance, he made it to Purgatory and everyone thought he was in Hell, he would still get the benefit of many prayers, such as the O My Jesus prayer at the end of each decade of the rosary. But I can see no sense for strangers like me to pray for him by name any more than for Judas Iscariot or the emperor Nero.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:44 pm | #80
A tortured life ranging from the highest peaks to the deepest valleys comes to its end. May he rest in peace.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:50 pm | #81
RE: “I would love to know if he went to confession before he died. There is an absence of commentary on this quite important issue. Was a priest seen at the Compound?”
Yes, according to a number of articles I read, there was a priest there prior to and when he passed. Not sure about confession but I would imagine he did go to it if I had to guess.
August 26th, 2009 | 8:55 pm | #82
Responding very decently to someone’s death
I don’t doubt that you believe this posting was a decent and reasonable response to the Senator’s death. That’s my point. Someone who loudly proclaims her Christianity thinks that this is a decent way to behave. Forget sinfulness. God will judge all of us on that score. I’m not talking about anything mystical or theological, behavior in any way above what common humanity instructs us to do. I’m just talking simple decencies, of the sort that quite godless people, people who ascribe to themselves no particular virtue, or special insider knowledge of God’s will, manage to display every day. What is it about your particular brand of godfulness that makes you incapable of a level of respect and forebearance, even of your enemies, that we see among pagans and atheists as a matter of course?
You accuse me of not reading your item. It is true that I don’t often read your blog, and I have to admit that, yes, based on my limited reading, this item today is restrained compared to your usual standards. But one can’t read your item even cursorily without stumbling over things that, while you may be so habituated that you no longer recognize what you are doing, are simple character assassination.
Just look at the title of your post. After ostentatiously mentioning, (I think the technique is called praeteritio, and is quite older than Christ) the reasons that others less charitable than yourself might have to consign the Senator to Hell, you come down for Purgatory as his fate. Mighty white of you, but I think that decent people don’t publicly speculate on the state of anyone’s soul but their own, and certainly not on the very day that they die.
I was taught by real nuns as a child. And while I did not come away from that experience with much devotion to the theology they espoused, I will be forever in their debt for a solid grounding in practical morality. The good nuns would never let me get away with the excuse that, “The other side started it!”. Look, if mentioning the Senator in making a political argument on the day he died was, by itself, wrong, which it isn’t, the fact that alleged twitters from our side mentioned him first for political gain, would count as no justification at all for you doing it. Real nuns would wash your mouth out with soap for trying that excuse.
You accuse the Senator of “finagling” to protect his seat for his own party. Okay, the matter of his succession is a legitimate subject for political discussion. It’s not at all wrong to talk about your oppsoition to this plan, even on the day of his death, because this is the day that the issue will get maximum attention. You have every right to be against the Senator’s wish that Massachusetts law be changed to allow the governor to appoint someone to fill the seat on a temporary basis until the special election to pick the permanent replacement. But shouldn’t you have mentioned substantive objections, your reasons for thinking that this is a bad idea, rather than create an ad hominem process issue, this “finagling” that seems to be your only objection? It simply isn’t true, it’s downright bearing of false witness on your part, to scatter the drive-by accusation that the Senator’s plan would secure for the Democrats a seat they wouldn’t otherwise attain. The law as it stands provides for an election in 145 days that would almost certainly be won by a Democrat. The sole difference the Senator urges is that provision be made for the governor to appoint someone to maintain his state’s two votes in the Senate until that election is held. To bend over backwards in fairness to the Republicans, however insignificant their chance of winning the election, the Senator requested that the person appointed be someone who pledges not to run in the election, so as not to give the governor’s appointee the unfair advantage of incumbency. This dying request, that doesn’t benefit his party, and certainly not himself, this “finagling” came, not in the form of some smoke-filled backroom maneuvering to get his way, but as an open letter to the governor, urging him to get legislation passed in the full light of day by the democratically elected legislature to accomplish this plan. But that’s “finagling”, to a Christian, apparently. Lacking any substantive objection to the idea itself, you use loaded words and outright falsehoods to create an ad hominem against a man on the day he dies.
But the worst is in the paragraph that follows that, yes, is being widely excerpted among the blog sites of the non-godful. The Senator, in your account, was a fat, old drunkard, though you were too cowardly to use those direct words, but instead said “overweight” and “liked his drink”, as if an archaic turn of phrase somehow makes it not invective. But you didn’t say these things without purpose, as gratuitous insults to his memory. No, you were in pursuit of a rather larger bit of false witness. One element of the drive-by is the idea that the Senator’s own health care plan is somehow better than what he planned for the rest of us in the public option, because his plan doesn’t, as the public option supposedly would, subject fat, old drunks to euthanasia. Well, for one thing, counseling people at the end of their lives on their options is a mark of a high quality plan. The provisions in one of the bills under consideration that would have the public option pay physisicians for this counseling is a way to extend that quality to all plans, because most of us now have plans in which our physicians are so constrained that they can’t afford to spend any time with us that isn’t compensated.
But that’s not the big false witness here. Now, you may have some theological notion that we are all god-bound to do everything to keep our hearts beating as long as possible, no matter how futile and no matter what the human cost of living the life so prolonged. If so, in your mind, perhaps end-of-life counseling that offers any choices at all, any path other than do everything to everybody, is morally the same as euthanasia. You’re welcome to that opinion, however arguably inhuman, and however small the minority who believe your way. But you’re not entitled to lie about the reality of the current predominance in practice of the opposite opinion, and the total lack of any change in that situation created by any of the reform plans under consideration. It is current practice, it is actually the law in many locales, that every patient be counseled on admission about end-of-life, and their right to refuse that everything be done.
Now, accusing a man of genocide on the day he dies, and using a total disregard for simple facts to formulate the indictment, may indeed be taking it easy on an ideological enemy by your usual standards. If that’s so, maybe you should review your usual standards. Most godless people manage to do much better, in simple human decency terms. You know, I admit that I’m out on a limb when I speculate that maybe God doesn’t want any more of us than that we treat each other with simple human decency. But I think I’m on firmer ground when I say that he surely doesn’t expect any less of us.
[Oh, give me a break. Many words, saying little and trying desperately to label me and use my own faith against me. Hello, Mr. Alinksy. "Finageling" is a fine Irish word that was perfectly appropos given Kennedy wished to change the very law he had already once before insisted on changing in order to protect his seat for his party. I did not even actually "denounce" that, I simply observed that it was what he was doing. You read much more into it than I wrote. As to the rest of it, I too was taught by "real nuns" who gave me a solid grounding in reason, and I did not call him a "fat old drunkard" because I would never call anyone that, being fat myself. Being Irish "a liking for the drink" is an affectionate term that Ted, himself, would possibly appreciate and use, and none of that was written in judgment of him but in judgment of Obamacare, which would be much more ruthless in judging him than I ever could or would want to be. You don't want to admit it but I spoke the truth: a 77 year old man with weight and drinking issues, diagnosed with a fatal illness will NOT be receiving the sort of care Kennedy received in his last year, because rationing will certainly be a part of Obamacare. I never cared that Kennedy was overweight or that he drank. Obamacare minions will care very much.
To be honest, I am also about ready to say I reject the whole hysterical charge from the left that no one is allowed to be political on the occasion of this death. He was a politician and the Dems are already making political hay on the left, as are the blogs...coming from people who wholeheartedly support Emmanuel's assertion that "one shouldn't waste a good crisis" you should be applauding the perceived "politicizing" you folks on the left are hollaring about. Or, are only people on the left allowed to discuss the political ramifications and tactics following the death of a pol, is that it?
Thank you for suggesting that I am "welcome" to my opinion (big of you) but you've mistated a great deal of what I've written. Also, please tell me where I accused Kennedy of "genocide" on the day of his death. I didn't. "Total disregard"? Yes, you've shown a total disregard for what I've actually written or have read me with such a bias that you cannot actually construe my meaning. Finally, Are you Ken? Because you sound like Ken, and write like Ken and Ken lied so much (and was caught so frequently in his lies) that he is banned. I wouldn't expect you to admit you're Ken, though -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 8:57 pm | #83
I’ll worry about what I think of the Ted Kennedy later.
I have to fight this Obamacare knowing the Left will use Ted’s death to try to pass it.
I will say that the American Catholic Church cannot keep up the farce of people doing the Devil’s work and still taking the Eucharist.
I recently left the Catholic Church because I couldn’t stand the heresy in the Church. I spent 3 days in county jail because the Catholic leadership of Notre Dame put me there simply for stepping foot on the campus for the unborn.
Today’s Catholic leadership is today’s Pharisees.
I’ll lay a bet that Hell is full of collared gentlemen.
August 26th, 2009 | 9:22 pm | #84
You wrote:
“Given a grim diagnosis in May of 2008, Kennedy managed, with the help of some of the best care available, to see another Christmas, another spring and even another summer. It’s entirely possible that what Kennedy’s death will really do is bring into stark relief the fact that under Obamacare, this overweight 77 year-old man with liking for the drink would probably have faced treatment rationing and an offer for “physician aid-in-dying”. Kennedy’s death will emphasize yet again that our elected “public servants” enjoy one of the best health insurance plans in the world, while they are trying to force something much less comprehensive (and life-affirming) onto their constituents.”
No, dumbass: it’s the exact OPPOSITE. Health care reform is about making affordable, quality healthcare AVAILABLE FOR ALL. There are no goddamn DEATH SQUADS.
Stop lying and wake the hell up.
[I'll give you one warning. We don't call each other names like "dumbass" around here, or accuse people of "lying" because they have a difference of opinion. And I'm sorry but the NY Times has already admitted that Rationing will be part of Obamacare, and what I said was quite true in that case: a 77 year old man, overweight, with a history of drinking and very little chance of recovery will not get the "quality" healthcare (would that be high or low quality?) that Kennedy has just received. It would not be "available for all" but will add 16 million to the rolls. Moreover, it's very unlikely that your senator or mine will want to be participating it. So...call names again, and you're out of here. Debate is just fine, but let's keep to reality, shall we? What do you think of the idea of "increasing competition" by allowing insurance to be sold over state lines? Oh, wait. Free market...how evil. -admin]
August 26th, 2009 | 9:26 pm | #85
[...] The Anchoress remembers Senator Kennedy. [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 9:27 pm | #86
Well, you must have touched a nerve dear lady because I see the trolls have made their appearance.
August 26th, 2009 | 9:29 pm | #87
Methinks that Ken has changed his name to Glen
August 26th, 2009 | 9:58 pm | #88
[...] Anchoress has a suitably Catholic post–and sometimes much more suitable than some of the comments, by the way. She reflects on the probable use of Kennedy’s death on the campaign for Obamacare. Given a grim diagnosis in May of 2008, Kennedy managed, with the help of some of the best care available, to see another Christmas, another spring and even another summer. It’s entirely possible that what Kennedy’s death will really do is bring into stark relief the fact that under Obamacare, this overweight 77 year-old man with liking for the drink would probably have faced treatment rationing and an offer for “physician aid-in-dying”. Kennedy’s death will emphasize yet again that our elected “public servants” enjoy one of the best health insurance plans in the world, while they are trying to force something much less comprehensive (and life-affirming) onto their constituents. [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:04 pm | #89
[...] The Anchoress, thoughtful as always, has a wonderful round-up of all sorts of thoughts regarding Ted. The Lord is indeed merciful. Examining his life, like the rest of us, will …expose deep flaws and surprising episodes of generosity. [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:24 pm | #90
[...] The Anchoress gets the Kennedy memorializing correct. [The Anchoress] [...]
August 26th, 2009 | 10:30 pm | #91
Perhaps as a Canuck I am more dispassionate, and not more respectful of Ted Kennedy’s passing, but here is what I see:
I see a prominent influential politician who endorsed abortion. How many babies died in the womb because women listened to his self-serving, expedient rhetoric? As JPII said, their blood is crying out from the ground.
I see a Catholic funeral celebrated by a bishop. I see the president eulogizing Kennedy from the pulpit (and in the process, getting in a few bon mots about his health care plan).
Do I see the mercy of God? Of course. Please God, that Ted Kennedy repented on his deathbed. But … as a prominent influential public promoter of abortion, in opposition to Church teachings, Ted Kennedy needed to make a public admission of repentance. So far, we have not seen or heard of that.
Until then I do not see a public Catholic funeral.
August 26th, 2009 | 11:52 pm | #92
I wish Anchoress needed defending, but, alas, no need for the white horse, so I’ll pontificate instead.
I hope that Mr. Kennedy at the end was able to let go of the luxury of feeling that his family was cursed, and to ask forgiveness for his childish and self-serving behaviors. It seems to me that for many years he may have been using familial tragedy to justify his abuse of alcohol and people. I guess I don’t have to say that if it had been any Republican Senator behaving in such a fashion, well, we all know what would have happened.
Next – if one is Catholic and reading this blog, Bender’s comments are theologically sound and in-so-far as he(?) is passing along church teachings, there isn’t much, if any, room for debate. If you are not Catholic, what’s the big deal? No one is asking you to accept our beliefs – but please don’t knock ‘em if you disagree. What’s the point in that?
JC and Glen, rude, rude, rude.
August 27th, 2009 | 12:04 am | #93
What an ASS. So you don’t mind thinking of Kennedy going to Purgatory and the Democrats “politicizing” Kennedys death. Well, it is good to see how “True” Christians really think. There is a low low low level in hell for you, hope you like it.
August 27th, 2009 | 12:19 am | #94
Mr. Kennedy will be given a Catholic funeral. This to me is part of the reason I could never be Catholic. He was picking and choosing what to believe in. My mother was divorced when my brother was very small and when she remarried my father, she could not get married in the church. She spent years getting the first marriage anulled, so she and my father could have a Catholic ceremony. To see this man adored by priests and bishops and cardinals makes me sick. He was pro-abortion, how can they justify this? I am relieved his suffering on earth is finished. Maybe now his real suffering will begin.
August 27th, 2009 | 12:26 am | #95
zackmon, you must not be Catholic because if you were, you would know what those of us who are, do – when you wake up in purgatory one day, despite the pain of the purge, you know with certainty that you’ve made it. There’s only one place to go from purgatory, and that is to heaven. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t apprehensive about it, but I’m grateful that I have the chance to get there when I die. And the Dems are politicizing – that’s just what they do.
August 27th, 2009 | 12:44 am | #96
Do not fall for the lies. The Republicans are spreading these idiotic lies for political points. That’s it. A lot of Republicans and some of the Blue Dog Dems get a lot of money from these insurance companies, who are spending millions of dollars a day to quash reform.
There will be no death squads. (remember this is a Democratic health care bill. Not a Republican one.)
No rationing.
No Death Books.
What exactly do these insurance companies do? They do not own or operate hospitals, they do not perform surgeries, they are not lowering the costs of prescription medicine.
Last year the insurance companies earned over 250 billion in profits. What have they given back to the consumer? To us who pay? Nothing. Just finding new ways to drive up what we pay them. I’m willing to pay more taxes for the greater good. Time for change.
[Don't worry, we're not falling for the lies: "No death squads" - I believe the word Palin used was "panels" not squads, and how funny that the senate finance committee took that provision out of their bill after Palin brought it up. "No rationing." Nonsense, even the NY Times admits (and champions) rationing and they wrote a 3,000 word article on "why we must ration" in their magazine. You could look it up. Everyone who is being honest admits that rationing will be part of this, Obama, himself, admitted it, when he talked about how some people will just have to take the pain pills and not get the surgeries. We're seeing health care rationed in CA and UK - it is foolish beyond reason to try to convince people that here in the US, where we can't run a cash-for-clunkers program - we'll somehow be able to have a mythical, well-run healthcare program that won't bankrupt us and "everyone will have great care and no rationing." Sorry, no sale. Look into the background of Obama's "science czar." "No Death Books" you mean like the VA one? You want to create competition and "change" let the insurance companies sell across state lines; it will open up the market and drop insurance premium prices enormously, without having to create a vast government entity that has sway over our lives. But c'mon...we know you don't really want to be saved from that!
-admin]
August 27th, 2009 | 1:30 am | #97
Anchoress,
I first caught on to your blog from Michelle Malkin’s site and, though I’m not Catholic, I hope you might be able to welcome one more of us who has heard some great things about your blog.
I appreciate the delicate balance you tread regarding Ted Kennedy’s death. I admit, I am not so delicate. I have had much experience already with the Catholic faith, being that I’m married to a “fallen Catholic” but also have guest taught in Catholic schools. You reflect a kindness to humanity that I often felt during my teaching experience in those schools but also feel Kennedy himself or his supporters do not embody.
Much is done in the name of bettering humanity. Many have defended abortion as a means of saving women from a “dire fate” (taking responsibility for their actions) or controlling the population as some Obama “advisers” have postulated. Seeing the Catholic Church being so undermined from without by the likes of people like Pelosi, Kennedy, and their ilk makes me wonder if the Catholic Church will exist much longer without more thorough self-analysis.
As a non-Catholic (Presbyterian actually) I’ve seen in my own church how many really didn’t practice what they went to church to learn. Anybody can practice kindness, but if kindness means being a fake and a fraud to save face, not hurt feelings, not be truthful I’ll pass. Many liberals I’ve known over the years think themselves the most pious and understanding yet save the self-righteous indignation to call out those of us who actuallly critically think about a person who had the influence and power that Kennedy had (or thought he had in this life).
The canonization of Kennedy has begun. People will always see what they want to see in people regardless of the truth. The ugly is hard to see, especially for the left when the utopian vision they concoct in a bubble doesn’t quite translate to real life. So this lion of a man that Kennedy is for the left is really just a wealthy, insulated, Washington bureacrat that the rest of us saw him as being.
These are my observations. Harmony is being controlled and lectured to those on the left. Harmony for me, and those too blunt to hold their tongue, prefer to be left alone, lead our own lives, and be free of the machinations and experimentations of the left.
I feel for the family but knowing what I do of the Kennedy history, myth, and lore, I’m just underwhelmed by feelings of gratitude or grief for a person who undercut our military, let a young woman drown, lived most of his life in a drunken, womanizing stupor, and generally used his name and wealth to push people around, character assassinate people (he was a master- remember the Bork hearings?), and pass on his character flaws to the next generation of Kennedy drug addicts, alcoholics, cheaters, and general wastrels.
So, anchoress, you are a better person than myself. I’ve struggled with my own personal foibles while questioning my faith in both humanity and God. I’m not a perfect person but pretending that Kennedy is a candidate for heaven is like saying that Saddam Hussein was a humanitarian.
So, I guess I’m heartless. Oh, well. I can live with myself. I can look myself in the mirror and know that I didn’t knowingly hurt people like Ted Kennedy did. The left can continue to indulge their romanticized babble and lie to themselves about Kennedy but I think for most of us the truth is a lot cleaner and easier to live by.
August 27th, 2009 | 2:06 am | #98
You’re right, “death panels”. (I think it’s all this silly Nazi garbage being tossed around that confused me.) I apologize….Still whatever you want to call it, it is nonsense.
Right now, insurance companies decide whether to give you coverage, what doctors you get to see, and whether a particular procedure or medicine is covered—that is “rationed health care”
Canada health care is very good. I speak from experience. My parents live in Canada and my father has had 3 operations in the past 5 years. My parents are not wealthy, but despite the long stays in the hospital, the countless hours of physical therapy, prescription drugs, They only pay $54 canadian a month for their insurance. Yes they have co-pays and such but they are not in debt. If they were down here where I live they would be in enormous debt, and living with me. Also, Canada was running buget surpluses from ‘98 to ‘08, but the recession pretty much hosed every countries economy in ‘09.
Any politician receiving money from Giant insurance corporations, should be voted out of office. Every single one of them. Republicans and Democrats alike.
I know change is scary. But this is America, it’s entire history is based on change, on growing, on tolerance, and equality for every one of it’s citizens.
For the record, I believe in public health care to my core, I just cannot help but feel it is the best thing for this country. It is a moral issue. I think that health care as a commodity (which it is) is unjust.. People getting rich off of the sick is bent. I don’t mean doctors or physicians, or any health care worker because we need these people. I mean the insurance companies.
I don’t believe health care reform will lead to National Socialism or to Soviet style communism. Things Just don’t work that way.
Lastly, I don’t think that Obama is trying to mislead anyone. I do believe the man is genuine.
I’m done. Thanks for the listening.
August 27th, 2009 | 4:16 am | #99
Andrew,
You are naive and you’re not alone. Gosh, you’re Canadian and you want your system brought to our country. Wow. It’s not up to you. It should be up to the American people who overwhelmingly do not want DeathCare.
Here is what you said:
“Right now, insurance companies decide whether to give you coverage, what doctors you get to see, and whether a particular procedure or medicine is covered—that is “rationed health care””
Well, Andrew, hate to break it to you but this is what insurance companies do. They need to match what kind of care is suitable for which patient/customer. What will work for a diabetic will not work, say, for a heart patient.
There is no “rationed health care” when even the uninsured can go to emergency rooms. However, there is plenty of rationing going on in Tricare (military HMO system), the VA, and the kind of waste, fraud, and abuse, which exist in your country and the UK, and also exists in the Medicare system. When our military can’t get quality care from the government, then you know you gotta look at a different strategy.
You said:
“Canada health care is very good. I speak from experience. My parents live in Canada and my father has had 3 operations in the past 5 years. My parents are not wealthy, but despite the long stays in the hospital, the countless hours of physical therapy, prescription drugs, They only pay $54 canadian a month for their insurance. Yes they have co-pays and such but they are not in debt. If they were down here where I live they would be in enormous debt, and living with me. Also, Canada was running buget surpluses from ‘98 to ‘08, but the recession pretty much hosed every countries economy in ‘09.”
This is just your anecdotal evidence. I can come up with just as much anecdotal evidence that says your system sucks. You may think your system is cheap but the uptick in taxes and the new chief of the system saying it’s going to implode indicate otherwise. If your parents are over 65 they would qualify for medicare (like my dad does) so no, they wouldn’t be in debt. There’s already a ton of evidence suggesting the many gaping holes in service that CanadaCare doesn’t provide such as the many mothers who have to go over the border to have their babies. That’s unacceptable.
You said:
“Any politician receiving money from Giant insurance corporations, should be voted out of office. Every single one of them. Republicans and Democrats alike.
I know change is scary. But this is America, it’s entire history is based on change, on growing, on tolerance, and equality for every one of it’s citizens”
“Giant” insurance companies aren’t the problem, lawsuit abuse, medicare abuse, defensive care, lack of a competitive, state-by-state market is. When the Federal government can dictate how the American citizen can purchase health coverage and what kind of insurance is available in a given state, there’s a problem.
Health care was never a right. It was never set out in the Constitution. If we’re to use the same logic, then housing, education, employment, etc. are all human rights as well. Please do not lecture us on “change” since you are a foreign citizen living in our country (unless you now are an American). America has evolved but forced change isn’t right. Forcing DeathCare down the throats of Americans is not only undemocratic, it’s unconstitutional.
You said:
“For the record, I believe in public health care to my core, I just cannot help but feel it is the best thing for this country. It is a moral issue. I think that health care as a commodity (which it is) is unjust.. People getting rich off of the sick is bent. I don’t mean doctors or physicians, or any health care worker because we need these people. I mean the insurance companies.
I don’t believe health care reform will lead to National Socialism or to Soviet style communism. Things Just don’t work that way.”
You’re a Canadian living in our country. If our health care system is so abhorent to you, why don’t you go home? Health care, like oil, food, and any service/product IS a commodity. If there is enough competition for your dollar it can be affordable but if there is not enough then that commodity is more expensive.
The insurance companies must determine who is insurable and who isn’t. They must make an assessment of what kind of care will match what the customer qualifies for. The insurance companies take the risk of providing coverage and put their resources on the line to provide that service. Their neck is OUT on the line because they lose big time through lawsuit abuse, fraud, waste, just like the patients. Yes, pre-existing conditions must be examined but if there were enough competing insurers that would diminish this problem. There are a lot more complicated reasons for why we have uninsured Americans and it isn’t always because of the cold, heartless insurance companies as you imply. If you did away with the emotional hyperbole you’d know that.
There is also a problem with the way physicians get reimbursed by Medicare. Many physicians are paying off steep educational debt, malpractice insurance, licensure fees, and office/equipment fees. It’s hard to pay the bills when you get your reimbursement cut significantly. So many physicians cut Medicare patients to keep their heads above water.
Doctors, nurses, health care workers go to school at often a very huge expense and need a decent wage to pay off those expenses. DeathCare will not only ensure that these folks aren’t paid what they’re worth but will not attract the best, the brightest. Why bother when the system will be already stacked against you and make your working, medical life miserable? Isn’t this what Canadian doctors are already experiencing?
If you think that DeathCare won’t lead to more centralized governmental power (Socialism/Communism) you’re very much mistaken. Our government has already taken over our banks and car companies so what’s stopping them from taking over our health care choices, how we raise our children, how we earn/spend our pay, etc? Things exactly work that way… you give the government more power they stomp all over the rights of the people. Look at Venezuela. It was a “people’s revolution” yet, in the end, are the people any better off?
You said:
“Lastly, I don’t think that Obama is trying to mislead anyone. I do believe the man is genuine.
I’m done. Thanks for the listening.”
Do you know Obama personally? How do you know what his intentions are? Can you believe someone who attacks his own countrymen for being unAmerican for standing up for their rights? Can you believe someone who has shifted the debate from health care reform to health insurance reform to whatever new goal post he’s set up?
No politician is genuine and you’re either really young, naive, or not politically savy enough to know it. The very fact that you left Canada to live in our country and yet can arrogantly prescribe a solution to our health care woes indicates either a lack of self-awareness or just a lack of basic facts.
What works in your country will not work here. Look, it’s really nice that you think wait times for cancer patients is off the hook and that people should just die so they’re no longer a problem to Big Brother but that’s not how health care should work. Well, it works like that in the VA where they botch your surgery, cover it up, and you can’t sue them for it.
You keep your Canadian DeathCare and your emotional hyperbole and we’ll keep our health care choices. Thanks for listening, Andrew.
August 27th, 2009 | 6:40 am | #100
RIP Ted Kennedy-I pray this moment awakens the faithful of your Church who have lost purpose and clarity through its practice of looting, pillaging and violating everyone and everything all in the name of ‘helping the poor’.
August 27th, 2009 | 9:57 am | #101
Zackmon, you write:
“What an ASS. So you don’t mind thinking of Kennedy going to Purgatory and the Democrats “politicizing” Kennedys death. Well, it is good to see how “True” Christians really think. There is a low low low level in hell for you, hope you like it.”
For starters, watch your language, bud! No name-calling!!
Secondly, what is wrong with purgatory? Have you no clue before you post? Most of us who will go to heaven will have to pass through purgatory first. Maybe you’re not Catholic so in that case…learn about what we’re talking about before you condemn us to the lowest levels of hell. Saying that we hope he made it to purgatory was a blessing. We don’t want him to go to hell (unlike you with us).
Thirdly: We’re not stupid. Of course, the Democrats are politicizing this! Have you read the news yet? They’re calling it KennedyCare.
August 27th, 2009 | 10:47 am | #102
[...] the personal touch he showed, persistently for years, toward the families of 9/11 victims, the Anchoress’ account at First Things (of a man whose politics she opposed), that Thankfully, God knows more, and sees more, than the [...]
August 27th, 2009 | 11:07 am | #103
Here’s a good read about how the concept being a Catholic and supporting abortion “rights” can be traced back to the Kennedys.
August 27th, 2009 | 11:25 am | #104
I think the genocide accusation was mine, A. Still waiting for someone to tell me my history is wrong or how America abandoning support of the South Vietnamese government didn’t ultimately lead to terrible suffering and mass murder by communist thugs.
Glen/Ken wants to impose political correctness on the day of Kennedy’s death and every day thereafter, because the truth is insulting to the left’s sensibilities. Let’s call political correctness what it is… an effort to suppress the truth.
I do NOT wish for Ted Kennedy’s eternal damnation as I recognize how easy it is to mean well and end up doing evil. And when you’re a U.S. senator, well-meaning policy efforts can have deadly consequences for lots of people.
Take, for example, Obamacare. If it will result in better health care for all, while spending less money on it (via the magic of Obamanomics), you should join us Glen/Ken in demanding that all U.S government officials subject themselves to the same plan. This should be something on which left and right can agree. It is only fair – right?
Obamacare – good enough for us – good enough for Congress!
To all non-Catholic readers of this thread… I believe it was JPII who said something to the effect, “Just get me to Purgatory!” As Catholics, we believe if God is bothering to purge you of your sins, you’re going to heaven. Praying for Kennedy to go to Purgatory (which in the Catholic sense is not even a place, let alone a ski area in Colorado) is the opposite of praying for him to go to hell, in our view. Just to clarify.
August 27th, 2009 | 11:39 am | #105
[...] Right: Dems Call For “The Kennedy Memorial Health Bill” The Anchoress, First Things: Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory The Xtremist: Ted Kennedy’s Ghost Will Be Spotted Asking For ObamaCare Stickee Notes: Teddy’s [...]
August 27th, 2009 | 12:41 pm | #106
[...] Has One Teensy, Weensy Little Blemish on His Health Care Record The Anchoress, First Things: Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory The Xtremist: Ted Kennedy’s Ghost Will Be Spotted Asking For [...]
August 27th, 2009 | 1:51 pm | #107
I will no doubt be criticized for this. Of course we leave Ted Kennedy’s soul to God. But one of the requirements of a good confession is that you “atone” not just by saying three Hail Mary’s, but by trying to undo the damage of your sins. Kennedy committed untold public mortal sins against the fifth commandment. Also sins against the sixth and ninth for his public advocacy of sodomy and same sex marriage. He committed numerous mortal sins of calumny and slander against honorable men and women named to the Supreme Court and other government posts that required Senate confirmation. Robert Bork is the most memorable whose name became a verb. Kennedy was part of the cabal that tried to “bork” Clarence Thomas.
God only knows whether the man sincerely repented, but the honors after his death are not a good sign. As Fr. John Hardon often said, “only humble people get into heaven.” Let Kennedy’s death be cause of fear and trembling for all of us. I want no honors, no eulogies, no praise after my death only Masses, prayers, and sacrifices.
August 27th, 2009 | 2:54 pm | #108
emjem24
Did I say I was Canadian? I am not, my parents moved up there 20 years ago. Your information about Canadian “health care” is not accurate and your source of information is misleading.
The argument that this is the first step to a completely socialized country where personal freedom will be completely erased is…. ahhhh? Funny. Western Europeans seem to be quite happy with all the benefits they get from publicly funded health care, and they don’t seem too oppressed.
It’s ok for us to have a completely different opinions and viewpoints,however, the language of your letter and the words you chose to use to address me show that you are the one actually being very emotional about this.
“Calling me arrogant” for having an opinion that does not coincide with yours is an emotional statement usually caused by anger and indignation . I did not attack anyone personally.
Using the term “deathcare” to argue against health care reform is emotional not rational.
There is more in there. If you want me to go through your entire missive and deconstruct your argument to illustrate how your language is a basic tell of your emotional state, I can but honestly. I’m writing this at work and actually don’t have that much time on my hands.
Peace be with you.
August 27th, 2009 | 3:14 pm | #109
Andrew, you write:
“There is more in there. If you want me to go through your entire missive and deconstruct your argument to illustrate how your language is a basic tell of your emotional state, I can but honestly. I’m writing this at work and actually don’t have that much time on my hands.”
Followed by:
“Peace be with you.”
That, sir, is arrogance and insult. “Peace be with you” after you rip the person.
Sounds like: “Boy, I could really tear you up if only I weren’t at work and if I had a bit more time but…peace be with you.”
What a crock!
August 27th, 2009 | 3:17 pm | #110
Uh, no.
August 27th, 2009 | 3:18 pm | #111
You’re still angry and emotional though.
August 27th, 2009 | 3:40 pm | #112
Andrew, you were talking about emjem24. not me.
And yes. I am ticked off at the way you write about people. Arrogance must be your middle name, Andrew.
I have no problem saying that I’m mad. LOL. Saying that I’m “emotional” (because I’m mad) is funny. Like that’s a problem. LOL.
You really need to be more respectful with people who disagree with you. Time you grew up, Andrew.
August 27th, 2009 | 4:34 pm | #113
Andrew,
Perhaps, you should have set out, very clearly, from the very beginning, what your nationality was. The fact that your parents moved to Canada, speaks to the fact that they’d rather give up their health care rights then try to help change the existing system. I guess, when the government doesn’t give you what you need, pack up and go, and be a leech on somebody else’s. I wonder how Canadians feel about your parents choice, Andrew.
I think your overall reaction to my post speaks to the lack of research and actual awareness on your part. You aren’t in the Armed Forces, or participate in the wretched excuse of the VA and Tricare. I do. I know first-hand the debacle that government care is. When you’re told what drugs are available to you or you have to wait 6 months to get something readily available at a Walmart or that you can only have your baby at a substandard Army hospital, then you know something is wrong.
I speak from cold, hard facts and reality, Andrew. You speak out of emotional hyperbole and shortsightedness. You think government care, in an idealistic, utopian bubble, will suddenly translate easily to our society. Your supposition is a reach and a sketchy one at that.
I am not being emotional. I am being coldly analytical, unlike you, using my social science backround, basic common sense, and observation to connect the dots and come to a startling conclusion many Americans have already come to. I am a military spouse whose life is already controlled by some distant bureaucrat. I am a participant in both Tricare and United Concordia, both military HMO’s, overseen by the government.
Perhaps, you should actually talk to real people, military people and their spouses, and ask what it’s like to be on Tricare or participate in the VA? You speak from a resentment of private insurance companies for making hard decisions that you have no clue about. I know that my diabetic mother has coverage for her drugs, doctors, and procedures whereas I have to go through a maze of bureaucratic red-tape to cure something as uncomplicated as a kidney infection. If it hadn’t been for the private provider that Tricare had to refer me to, I could have been in SERIOUS TROUBLE. Furthermore, as Tricare often does, they stiffed this provider, who I thought had been compensated only to discover, after a military move, that my bill had gone into collection and ruined my credit. That’s the kind of system I’ve experienced.
Private health care often bails out the public system’s mistakes and gets poorly compensated for the privilege. I am passionate, informed, and concerned, unlike you who thinks that Canada Care, that your parents ran to because they didn’t want to pay for their health care (oh, they do- through taxation), will suit the US. Tricare isn’t cheap and it isn’t free. The military and their families were promised cheap, free health care and every time the federal government has reneged. Every time.
I did not attack you personally, Andrew. I think your condescending attitude, that you know best, when you know very little, speaks volumes. I went through painstaking detail to analyze and tear apart your argument. You made it quite easy. Unfortunately, you can’t do the same for mine because how can you defend Tricare or the VA, or even Medicare?
Ever been to Europe, Andrew? I have. There are many unhappy Europeans I’ve met who have told me stories of how crappy their health care is. Crappy health care doesn’t make people happy. I often get daily examples from the UK papers of how the NHS is falling apart. Most of the health care systems are a private/public mix in Scandinavia because they’ve already discovered that government care won’t address all their health care needs. The welfare state, in which heath care is a big part, is sinking many countries, including the UK, Spain, just to name a few. Public health care is not cheap, it’s not efficient, and it’s not free. If the UK doesn’t address their NHS problems soon, the system will collapse. That is not the kind of reality I want to share.
Oh, and by the way, I called you arrogant because of the emotional hyperbole, the misinformation you used, and the stereotypes that many DeathCare advocates use. DeathCare already exists in the VA with botched surgeries, malpractice, and the Death Book, which advises military veterans how to end their lives so they won’t be burdens to their family or government.
I refuse to play your game, Andrew. I prefer to be honest and blunt. You prefer to hide behind emotional hyperbole, stereotypes, and plain, undisguised resentment of the nature of what insurance companies do. Instead of looking for solutions, Andrew, you pass the blame, and have chosen your side. You think we should devise a new system that will create new problems but that will not solve the old ones. This is what the federal government did with military health care- constant experimentation with less and less productive results.
Until you actually see the flip side of the health care debate, how can you claim you’re informed? I don’t have all the answers, but your projection seems to indicate that we should repeat other systems’ mistakes. That seems to be a bit short-sighted. Or, I guess we can all flee like your parents when we don’t feel like paying for health care anymore, right?
You don’t have all the answers and your simplistic analysis of what you think will cure our health care woes doesn’t begin to resolve anything.
August 27th, 2009 | 4:35 pm | #114
I have had a day to calm down from my initial reaction, and what I have come to conclude is this: Kennedy’s religion was not “Catholic;” it was “Democrat.”
Nevertheless, and although it cost me something, remembering the Cure of Ars, I said a prayer for the repose of his soul.
August 27th, 2009 | 5:12 pm | #115
Whew, I’m glad you cleared that up.
Because for a second there, I thought you were saying I was arrogant because I had a job. lol.
August 27th, 2009 | 5:36 pm | #116
Also, if you want to talk about this in person the next time you come out to Berkeley, Let a brother show you around so you can see how wonderful our health care system is.
And Sue from Buffalo: I’m sorry you got mad at the way I wrote to what’s his face, it wasn’t ment to upset you.
Anyway I’m going to http://www.Huffingtonpost.com site now, and read something posted by adults.
Hope you don’t get sick
August 27th, 2009 | 6:29 pm | #117
“What can one do when one is likely unfit for heaven, but possesses just enough charity and love to stave off hell?”
I am given to understand that the forgiveness of that supposed unfitness is the entire point of Jesus’ sacrifice.
[God is merciful. He is also Just. Were I to die in all my sins, even my lesser sins, I would still expect him to mete out his justice to me before I could approach His Majesty. -admin]
August 27th, 2009 | 6:39 pm | #118
[...] Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory by Elizabeth Scalia (The Anchoress) of First Things [...]
August 27th, 2009 | 8:24 pm | #119
[...] Has One Teensy, Weensy Little Blemish on His Health Care Record The Anchoress, First Things: Ted Kennedy, Healthcare & Purgatory The Xtremist: Ted Kennedy’s Ghost Will Be Spotted Asking For ObamaCare The B.S. Report: Video Of [...]
August 27th, 2009 | 10:45 pm | #120
God is merciful. He is also Just.
You know, Jesus is the one and only savior. But He never said that He was doing it all by Himself. He never said, “go ahead and torture me, and it will be all sunshine, rainbows, and lollipops for you.” I’m pretty sure that He said something quite to the contrary, something like, if you want to follow Him, you are going to have to follow Him, i.e. join in His Passion.
Jesus never said that He was going to do ALL the work of redemption. Rather, He was quite clear that, although He would do the greatest part, He would do the heavy lifting and do what was impossible for us, we were going to be required to assist Him in the work of redemption, especially our own redemption. After all, we made the mess, so we should help clean it up. We can never clean it up fully ourselves, but we can help. Redemption is a joint effort.
We have to carry the Cross. Part of that is enduring some consequences of our actions. Part of that is, not merely selfishly and presumptuously taking God’s mercy, but accepting some measure of justice as well. God is Love, so He is merciful; but God is also Truth, which means that justice cannot be ignored or set aside.
“The mercy of Christ is not a cheap grace; it does not presume a trivialization of evil. [Although] Christ carries in His body and on His soul all the weight of evil, and all its destructive force. . . . the more we are touched by the mercy of the Lord, the more we draw closer in solidarity with His suffering and become willing to bear in our flesh ‘what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ’ (Col 1, 24).”
Jesus does most of the work of redemption, and He suffers a great deal for it and for us. But He does not do all of it Himself. He wants our help — God helps those who help themselves. Part of that is being willing to bear in ourselves what is lacking in His afflictions, including submitting to the just “fire” of judgment.
August 27th, 2009 | 11:15 pm | #121
It’s interesting to read the comments here from people who are deeply devout Catholics and also very conservative. I am a Quaker and a liberal. I hope that won’t stop you from hearing me out.
Again and again, I see that people misrepresent the health care reform that Sen. Kennedy aspired to create starting way back in the 1970’s. This was one of his life’s greatest causes. I read here that you believe health care reform would have rationed the care Kennedy himself got, that the public option would not be as good as the insurance provided for members of Congress and that it includes death panels.
Assuming you are intelligent, thoughtful people, how can it be that you still make these claims? The aim of the public option is 1) it is optional; no one has to buy it if they want to keep their own insurance and 2) it is to be as good as the one provided for Congress and 3) there are no death panels. The idea, now removed because of concerns over misinterpretation and unfounded alarms from the right, was to cover counseling regarding end of life issues: hospice care, living will, any other instructions an individual would want to make clear before a medical emergency would render them unable to function – this type of counseling would be covered. That too would be optional. I had an aunt who was dying from ephysema and heart problems. She was able to afford the insurance to keep her alive and alert in spite of that. And she requested hospice when she knew that even with all the medical care, she didn’t have much longer to live. No one rationed her care, and no one told her to give up, but she knew she needed hospice to die in dignity at home when her time came. Hospice helped her and her entire family to provide her comfort, to sort through the emotional issues etc. that end of life brings. Dying is part of living. So counsel at this time is not a death panel. That’s all I wanted to say. I really wish conservatives would read the bill and think about it before jumping to these false and misleading conclusions.
August 28th, 2009 | 12:56 am | #122
I really wish conservatives would read the bill and think about it before jumping to these false and misleading conclusions.
Is it really too much to believe in the good faith of those you disagree with? Is it really necessary to accuse them of total ignorance and lying?
Could it not be possible that they are acting in good faith, that they really, actually have read “the bill” (there are actually more than one, so as not to be misleading), and that they have also read and heard what members of Congress have said, and what Barack Obama has said, and what members of his Administration have said? Could it not be possible that they have actually studied history and observed and seen what other countries have done, as well as noting the resurrection of a large physician “aid-in-dying” movement, which we thought that the world had defeated over 60 years ago? And could it not also be possible that these are honest people who have, indeed, thought about it and are honestly concerned?
Instead of reflexively slandering those you disagree with as know-nothing liars, maybe you ought to read and listen to what people are saying and think about it?
August 28th, 2009 | 7:02 am | #123
Intelligent, thoughtful, compassionate people do not need government plutocrats to take care of us from cradle to grave.
We are free, not slaves to dreadful Serfdom-that is the road to hell we will not take.