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An Infinite Passion

Atargatis, the “Syrian Goddess,” was a demanding mistress. For one thing, her priests (the galli) could win their way into her affections only by emasculating themselves. According to the De Dea Syria, attributed to Lucian of Samosata, any young man disposed to dedicate himself to her service in Hierapolis had to make this first and most extravagant oblation on one of her high holy days, in a fit of divine ecstasy, with a single economic slash of a sacred sword kept at her temple. After that, he would run naked and bleeding through the city streets until he found a home into which he felt inspired to fling the freshly severed jetsam. Any household thus “honored” was then required by religious decency to supply the new initiate with female attire and adornments.

Now, admittedly, we all do our best to lay up treasure in heaven, and I suppose one ought not to cast around too many peremptory judgments regarding other people’s pieties; but I think most of us can agree that this was a fairly exorbitant sum to place in escrow on an uncertain bargain. More to the point, pity the poor housewife or slave to whose lot it fell to take up the gauntlet (so to speak) from where it had been thrown down. Religious enthusiasts in every age have tended to make nuisances of themselves, granted; but even Jehovah’s Witnesses showing up at the door at dinner time do not impose themselves quite so inconsiderately and startlingly as that.

And at that point, amazingly enough, the goddess’ demands on her priests were only just beginning. Delighted as she no doubt was to have it proved to her yet again just how very—well, for delicacy’s sake, let’s just say disarming—her admirers found her charms, her craving for constant reassurance was so jealous and ravenous that no gesture of allegiance, however irrevocable, could satisfy her for long. Thus her galli had to renew their sanguinary covenant with her at regular intervals, by whipping and lacerating themselves mercilessly in public displays of votive zeal. And this meant that her importunities of the larger society were fairly unremitting as well.

Well before the latter half of the second century a.d., when Lucius Apuleius painted his contemptuous portrait of the “Syrian” galli in his Metamorphosis (or Golden Ass), the mysteries of Atargatis had migrated widely out into the empire. Wandering troupes of mendicant capon flagellants went about clad in outlandish motley garb, brandishing flutes and cymbals and tambourines, and harassing honest citizens with that most annoying expression of happy piety, singing in public.

And, if Apuleius’s views are representative of contemporary opinion, their self-inflicted incapacity did nothing to shield them from a reputation for vice. The Metamorphosis not only heaps disdain on their ritual antics and theatrical effeminacy, but depicts them as a society of charlatans, who collect alms only to subsidize a life of dissipation and sexual depravity. To Apuleius, plainly, Atargatis was just some vulgar daemoness from the provinces, of low pedigree and untutored manners, whose worship was little more than a rude confidence game.

Not that he really had much right to object in principle to the sect’s practices. He certainly expresses no comparable distaste for Phrygian Cybele, the “Anatolian Mountain Mother” or “Great Idaean Mother of the Gods”—quite the reverse, in fact—even though Cybele’s mysteries were probably the original template from which all other matrolatrous cults of excitable geldings were stamped. Her galli, at least those of the purest observance, were pruned in exactly the same manner as their “Syrian” counterparts, if in a somewhat more ceremonious manner, and could boast a far more ancient lineage; her Corybants assailed the ears of passersby with their wails of frenzied hymnody and the din of cymbals and tambourines; and all her keener votaries generally behaved as one ought not to behave in polite settings. Initiation into her higher orders even involved being drenched in the gushing blood of a dying bull.

By Apuleius’s time, however, Cybele had long enjoyed the official adoration of Rome and, for all her irrepressible wildness, had become very respectable. She had been admitted into the company of recognized Roman deities as early as 204 b.c. and had become a favorite of many emperors from the time of Claudius onward; she had even been absorbed by the generous syncretism of the time into virtual identity with any number of the other mother goddesses thronging late antiquity’s petticoat pantheon: Rhea, Artemis of Ephesus, Demeter, Bellona, and so on. She may have started out as a rustic Asiatic parvenue, but now she moved in the highest circles. Like the young Marie Antoinette stripped of her garish Austrian frills and flounces by the ladies of the French court and tricked out in the best Parisian fashions, it had taken only a few deft cosmetic alterations of costume to transform her from gauche to à la mode.

I suppose there must be some nasty psychological joke about certain boys and their mothers lurking in the tendency of many mother goddesses to demand so bindingly final a tribute from their more “favored” male worshippers. It is certainly something of a recurrent motif in the anthropology of religion. Even today in India, in fact, the goddess Bahuchara Mata is served by a community of hijras or holy eunuchs (of the total ablation variety, horrifyingly enough). And, certainly, those of us born into religious traditions that grew up at the foot of Sinai, rather than of Ida or Sipylus or Meru, can take considerable comfort from the thought that our “patriarchal” creeds leave us—for the most part—physically intact.

Not that our creeds are entirely free from any analogous excesses (at least, slightly analogous), over at the other, much more benign end of the same psychopathological spectrum. And I am not talking about Origen or any other early Christians who may have had themselves trimmed in the Alexandrian style for the sake of philosophical serenity; they were anything but religious ecstatics or enthusiasts. Rather, I mean some of the more peculiar manifestations of the ascetic or charismatic impulse in Christian history. A French scholar of hagiographies told me only last week, for instance, of one mediaeval saint who was able to embrace the celibate life without reservations only after the Blessed Virgin appeared to him in a vision and, with a single touch of the hand, blessed him with perpetual flaccidity.

And, more generally speaking, Christian history has always had its holy lunatics: ungoverned glossolaliacs, wandering prophets, stylites, flagellants, and so forth; and of course even today there are snake-handlers and holy-rollers and other practitioners of Christian vodoun out there, as well as those deranged Filipinos who have themselves nailed to crosses on Good Friday; and the list could be considerably extended.

And, just as we would never allow these extreme and exotic expressions of Christian piety to determine our understanding of the faith as a whole, we should not let the bloodier or more degenerate devotions of ancient religion to distract us from the quite sane and luminous faith of many men and women of pagan antiquity, or to blind us to its frequently remarkable familiarity. The same Apuleius who abominates the worshipers of Atargatis ends his book—which for its first ten chapters is just a whimsical, slightly grotesque, and occasionally ribald burlesque—in a state of rapt adoration before Isis, whom he regards as the true source and end of all life: one of the most devout and beautiful expressions of faith in a benevolent and provident divine savior in all of ancient literature, not excepting the Christian texts.

Even so, it is also true—and this is my reason for bringing all of this unsavory business up in the first place—that extremes tell us something indispensable about what is ordinary. It is genuinely illuminating to consider how much human beings can torment, torture, and mutilate themselves—physically and psychologically—in pursuit of the divine (however conceived) and how violent they can become in their struggle against all the limitations of their own nature that they imagine separate them from that end. As the old formula has it, abusus non tollit usum: the abuse of a thing does not tell against its proper use. But it is also true that the abuse of a thing can reveal a great deal about the true scope of its proper use.

Even what we might regard as the ghastliest, most psychotically extravagant deformities of spiritual longing must still in some sense be rooted in the very nature of spiritual longing. They show us, in a somewhat macabre fashion, just how transcendental a longing it is—just how infinite a passion. So deep is the hunger for God or for the Absolute (or whatever) that it can drive many of us to destroy our own flesh, forfeit our posterity, even lay down our lives in the path of this or that Juggernaut. In the grip of this passion, there is no obstruction (not even one’s own body) that religious desire is not willing to tear down.

Of course, there are those disposed to see all religious yearning as a psychological disorder, and to them the extreme expressions of such yearning would seem merely to confirm the diagnosis. But this raises a rather troubling question regarding the possibility of a disorder so general and perennial and yet so frequently contrary to the imperative of survival that supposedly motivates all living things. After all, from a thoroughly naturalistic perspective, it requires considerable ingenuity to explain how an organism constructed entirely from “selfish genes” can have evolved an overwhelming longing to be in some sense torn out of the continuum of nature altogether.

I know, obviously, that purely Darwinian explanations of religion have been attempted, and that some kind of evolutionary rationale can be devised to explain just about any phenomenon if one is sufficiently inventive. Most such explanations are utterly impressionistic, of course; and, as with most attempts to use Darwinian theory to explain more than it really can, they are largely exercises in making the implausible sound somehow almost kind of likely. Perhaps the most immediately convincing are those that start from some concept of “group selection,” and that therefore can avoid dealing too directly with all those particular individuals who consciously forsake their own genetic interests for the sake of supernatural ends. But “group selection” is, as is well known, a profoundly problematic idea in many ways.

Anyway, I am not interested in that argument just at the moment; it would take too long and would prove inconclusive. It is simply part of the intellectual burden of modernity, now that every concept of final and formal causes has been explicitly abandoned, that persons of a rationalist bent have to try to see everything (including, impossibly enough, existence itself) as the effect of blind material or physical causes, even if that means taking a shockingly great number of counterintuitive assertions purely on faith.

What does interest me, however, is the irreducible enigma of a passion that is not only a possibility of human nature, but one of its most universal and compelling motives, and yet also one that is so difficult to account for in terms of the narrow economies of material causes. Whether we think it tells us anything about the nature of reality or not, we should at least grant that it tells us something about our own nature that cannot easily be fitted into our “mechanical philosophy.”

Just a thought.

David Bentley Hart is a contributing editor of First Things. His most recent book isAtheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies (Yale University Press). His previous “On the Square” articles can be found here.

Comments:

1.14.2011 | 3:15am
edmond says:
Uhh "no pain, no gain"?
1.14.2011 | 9:00am
Just a quick response:

1) Of course, many Christians castrated themseves; like Origen. Who was furthermore, arguably in his way, a religious/spiritual person too. Giving up on many material things, to experience the divine ecstasy of self-annihilation etc.. The Popes especially liked and even created legions of castrati; castration left their high, boyish voices intact late in life, and contributed to better church choirs, they thought.

2) Personally, I'm no fan of castration. But it is easy enough to justify other forms of self-sacrifice, in natural and rational language: often individuals sacrifice themselves ... to save others. A mother wolf, may take on more powerful animals, to save her cubs, and so forth.

What's so hard to understand, here? If you've declined to go into the explanation, it's no doubt really, because you know how simple and final the rejoinder will be.
1.14.2011 | 10:24am
Andria says:
Your previous commenter Edmond sums it up for me ... Uhh "no pain, no gain"? However Self Sacrifice is a subject close to terrorism and brain washing!
1.14.2011 | 10:30am
AL says:
@ Joe the Human



You fail to notice the contradiction in your own argument--as one would expect.

Self-sacrifice to save others makes sense in terms of the Neo-Darwinian logic of genetic self-interest. Destroying one's fertility for the sake of a transcendental end obviously does not fall into the same category, and the power of that passion raises all sorts of questions about the claim that we are entirely governed by the imperative of survival and genetic self-propagation. The two things are not analogous.

As ever, you miss the point.

And this article already mentions Origen and other Christians who mutilate themselves. This is not a "paganism bad, Christianity good" article. I suppose you didn't actually bother to read the piece before replying, so I thought I'd clue you in.
1.14.2011 | 10:32am
Jamie says:
If Lucius Apuleius is to be believed, one wonders what form of “sexual depravity” these Ken-dolls were even capable of?
1.14.2011 | 10:36am
Anonymous 3 says:
Thank you for yet another article that helps us to see how many deceptions the enemy has used , to distort The Father image , along with attacks on the truth about The True Mother of us all - fulfilling the verse in Book Of Revelations - ' the dragon spewed a torrent of water after The Woman to spew her away , but the earth opend its mouth and swallowed up the river ' .

All these mythologies , do they not show us the depth and breadth of those torrents !

And help us to be grateful that , in the 'fullness of time ' , there was enough purity in the lines , to bring forth The Woman who was to recieve The Word !

That Word , our Lord Himself , to unmask all the deceptions aimed against The Father and in whom we get to see The Father - He , who takes up all that the enemy would bring against Him , on our behalf , He, in His human nature , in the loving power of The Holy Spirit , poured forth in the midst of The Passion, for sake of each of us , to untie the claims and holds of shame and guilt as well as the lies of the enemy on what true human dignity is !

Those lies of the enemy may have made use of fallen human nature with its easy tendency to distort the nature of that dignity which in turn could have led to serious errors , right in the ways of the children in The Church - thus the case of things like the castrati - an indirect attack on dignity and worth of Fatherhood !

May His mercy help us all, to repent of all such areas and plead for His mercy , on the merits of His Passion , that we are ever tended on more onto the ways of The True King !

May The Spirit help The Church , to fulfill His promise , so that the prevailing lies and divisions that still dominate many lands would be driven out , through intercession of an all holy Mother, of pure noncarnal love, who is ever submissive to her spouse - the Holy Spirit - a Spirit of purity, truth, harmony !

Come, O Holy Spirit !
1.14.2011 | 10:49am
AL:

1) The underlying tone of Hart's artcile was in fact, Hart's usual attempt to Proudly, Vainly, "triumphantly" suggest that his religion is all good, and pagans are evil.

2) Specifically that Christiana self-sacrifice does not make sense in materialist terms; but only transcendental terms.

3) My response is that as usual, Hart supports his vanity, by editing history to suit his conservative bias. E.g. leaving out or minimizing Christian castration, for example.

4) THEN I go on to note that for that matter, self-sacrifice does indeed make material, Darwinian sense.

5) While now I add, in response to your usual proud, condencending remarks, self-sacrifice makes materialistic sense ... even at the expense of the PARTIAL elmination of one's genes. Note that if one member of a family is eliminated, that does not destroy the larger gene pool, of the tribe. While indeed, the sacrifice of the individiual's genes, serves the larger gene pool.

6) While - in response to your latest faux pas - Darwinian explanation makes even transcendental sense. In that in sacrificing for the tribe, or all humanity, one individual might, idealistically, morally, sacrifice his life for the good of something beyond - transcending - his own individual life.

7) There is Biblical evidence, moreover, that this kind of act, is a significant part even of biblical transcendence. Biblical scholarship speaks of the importance not just of the individual, but especially the "corporate personality," the "tribe" and ones "seed." Thus, part of even Biblical transcendence, is taking care of those living human beings, you will survive after you.

When will Catholics get beyond a typically crippling Catholic vanity, a false spirituality that is really only self-satisfaction, and "triumphalism"; to "see" God in the material life around them?
1.14.2011 | 11:00am
Dusty says:
It is unknown whether that nasty rumor about Origen has any basis in fact. There are, in fact, good reasons to believe otherwise. It is more likely than not simply a slanderous remark.
1.14.2011 | 11:21am
@ Dusty

That Origen had himself neutered *may* be false, but it is probably true. All the real evidence suggests it was. I doubt your knowledge of the time and place in question or of the relevant evidence is better than Dr Hart's.

But it would not have been considered much of a slander at the time. It was something philosophers of Alexandria occasionally did. As did some Christian scholars. Eusebius reports it not as an accusation against Origen, but as something commonly known.
1.14.2011 | 11:43am
Dusty says:
Andrew:

I did not claim to have greater knowledge of said time and place, and if you read carefully you will note that Dr. Hart is ambiguous on the matter ("Origen or any other early Christians who may have had themselves trimmed").

At any rate, in his commentary on that passage in Matthew Origen states that it has no literal meaning at all, and that anyone who takes literally "Would make it seem as if Christ had taught men to be savage and barbaric, and only succeed in having men hate the very words of Jesus."
1.14.2011 | 11:48am
jason taylor says:
"Popes especially liked and even created legions of castrati; castration left their high, boyish voices intact late in life, and contributed to better church choirs, they thought."

That was a musical fashion, not a religious one; a number of secular rulers had castrati sing for them for their amusement including, I believe, the King of France. The author was talking specifically about religious motives.
1.14.2011 | 11:54am
DP says:
Joe,

If you read the article I don't see how you can possibly claim that it was an "attempt to Proudly, Vainly, "triumphantly" suggest that his religion is all good, and pagans are evil."
1.14.2011 | 11:55am
Dusty says:
Folks, please don't feed the trolls (aka Joe the Human).
1.14.2011 | 12:30pm
Fred says:
Dusty's right. Never argue with drunks, lunatics, children, or Joe the Human. It's a pointless endeavor.
1.14.2011 | 12:40pm
Paige says:
Wow, Joe the Human has a flawless score. He literally NEVER gets it right. He never understands what he reads and he never understands the argument he thinks he's replying to. And the simpler the point being made, the harder the time he has following it. I read all comments when I can, ad some of them I think good, others bad, others indifferent; but only JTH makes me react, every single time, with a feeling of unwholesome disdain.

Clearly this article does not say what he JTH thinks it says. Clearly, moreover, Hart never says anything remotely like "his religion is all good, and pagans are evil." Anyone who knows Hart or his work knows how deeply he loves the pagan culture of late antiquity, and how much he admires all sorts of religious traditions. (Maybe JTH should go look at earlier columns, like "Saint Sakyamuni" or "Julian Our Contemporary"--or then again maybe he shouldn't, since he would misunderstand them as well.)

Anyway, let's be charitable and assume he accidentally missed 75% of the paragraphs in this piece, like the one I reproduce here:

"And, just as we would never allow these extreme and exotic expressions of Christian piety to determine our understanding of the faith as a whole, we should not let the bloodier or more degenerate devotions of ancient religion to distract us from the quite sane and luminous faith of many men and women of pagan antiquity, or to blind us to its frequently remarkable familiarity. The same Apuleius who abominates the worshipers of Atargatis ends his book—which for its first ten chapters is just a whimsical, slightly grotesque, and occasionally ribald burlesque—in a state of rapt adoration before Isis, whom he regards as the true source and end of all life: one of the most devout and beautiful expressions of faith in a benevolent and provident divine savior in all of ancient literature, not excepting the Christian texts."

All right, Dusty, you're right. I'll leave the trolls to forage for themselves.
1.14.2011 | 12:43pm
andrew says:
i am, er, "disarmed" by your essay. well done.
1.14.2011 | 12:58pm
Joe the Human just ain't got all the gears up there in the head-box, you know.

Anyway, Dr Hart certainly has never attacked paganism as all evil. Goodness, just a few weeks back he was being attacked by the fideistic crowd for saying things nice about paganism and pagan beings (dryads, etc.).

And, on the matter of self-sacrifice, Mr Human obviously doesn't see the simple point being made here. That is, the ultra-Darwinist explanation of evolution purely in terms of genetic selfishness may be able to explain lots of different kinds of self-sacrifice, but one does have to wonder whether it can ever make sense of the ubiquity and extremity of religious passion. One does have to wonder what evolutionary purpose is really served by a longing that puts an end to the genetic future of the organism. Sure, you can come up with all sorts of inventive explanations (memes gone wild!, for instance), but they all seem oddly inadequate and oddly incompatible with pure ultra-Darwinism of the Dawkins variety. So it is a real and interesting question--which is all Dr Hart says here.

Oh, blast, I'm feeding the trolls, aren't I? It's hard to resist. It's like wanting to stop the lemmings, because they're such cute fuzzy little things, even though one knows that they are what they are and that just can't be changed.
1.14.2011 | 1:11pm
S.L. Hersey says:
It is true that the Hierapolite households targeted by the goddess's novices endured certain inconveniences. However, sources report that they were able to get some return on their initial expense at any local junk dealer.
1.14.2011 | 8:56pm
Gibraltar says:
There are some doubts listed in the comments that some early Christians practiced castration. It should be no surprise that individuals took Christ's words literally; "eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom" and "better to enter heaven without it".

Justin Martyr mentions this practice in his First Apology, Ch 29, on The Continence of Christians: "And that you may understand that promiscuous intercourse is not one of our mysteries, one of our number a short time ago presented to Felix the governor in Alexandria a petition, craving that permission might be given to a surgeon to make him an eunuch. For the surgeons there said that they were forbidden to do this without the permission of the governor. And when Felix absolutely refused to sign such a permission, the youth remained single, and was satisfied with his own approving conscience, and the approval of those who thought as he did. "

http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/the-first-apology-of-justin/
1.15.2011 | 7:06am
Mark VA says:
For those who do believe that we are soulless organisms "constructed entirely from “selfish genes” ", the persistence of religious beliefs in such organisms must be an irksome problem.

Their past methods for re-programming these organisms to eradicate religious beliefs have not only failed, but actually strengthened the attachment to the transcendent - changing the mode of production, elimination of the clergy, propaganda thru the institutions of learning and media, various psychological methods, such as denial of education, ridicule, or the uses of fear, to name a few, only produced the opposite effect.

Their answer often is that it was some part of the methodology, or its faulty application, or the historical setting, or some other incidental factor, that failed. In other words, they cling to their core beliefs in spite of the empirical evidence, bought at enormous human suffering, that contradicts them.

This macabre joke is on them - like Sisyphus, they seem locked into a pointless and repetitive action, that produces nothing but human misery. But having temporary access to such power must be intoxicating. It's difficult to call any of this rational.
1.15.2011 | 8:25am
Michael PS says:
Demetrius of Alexandria declared Origen’s ordination in 230, by the bishops of Jerusalem and Caesaria to be irregular, partly on the grounds of his teenage act of intemperate zeal, the other ground being his not having demissory letters from Demetrius himself. Now Demetrius had long been on friendly terms with Origen and it is notable that he never suggested ordination, even to the diaconate (which would have allowed him to preach) to so eminent a scholar and teacher of the faith.

The first canon of the Council of Nicea declares those who have castrated themselves to be irregular for the reception or exercise of holy orders, whilst those who have been castrated for medical reasons, or against their will are not; this suggests some doubt as to whether eunuchs were irregular “ex defecto,” like a man who had lost his thumb, or “ex delicto,” on account of wrong-doing.

There are some who think that the heresiarch, Montanus, may once have been a priest of Cybele, or a similar deity – St Jerome in calling him “abscissun et semi-virum” (and much else besides) may be alluding to this.
1.15.2011 | 10:19am
Anonymous 3 says:
Let us hope too that many would feel the repugnance about the hidden forms of castration and even murders in the womb , rampant in our culture , in order to be able to dance to the idol of sex - such as in the use of sterilisations , surgical or chemical through pills, and condoms and the way it leads persons to slavery to its unfulifilling appetites !

And thank God that The Church alone clearly speaks out the reasons as to why all these are attacks on our dignity and ways for enemy entry who comes only to destroy - relationships, health , peace !

And the careful , measured interventions of God , when The Spirit is able to alight and dwell in !

The nun who was miraculously healed of Parkisonism, from intercession of Pope John Paul 11 belonged to an order with an endearing and prophetic for our times name - ' Congregation of Little Sisters of Maternity Wards ' ! :)

The Holy Father , like the nun who was healed also might have seemed paralysed externally , in things we really should not be the judges and thus able to echo St.Paul , who as one submissive to The Spirit possibly no longer felt the need to worry about how God was going to use even his seeming weaknesses !

We see this in how the Holy Father who suffered in his illness as well as through the trials in The Church has earned the merits , to help others now , from heaven !

May we thus ever glorify the only Infinite Passion of our Lord Yeshua that makes our own participation in same , in trusting love for The Father all worthwhile , to break strongholds of our enemy and its ways of illness , lies , hatred of truth and divisions !

May His mercy brought to us by intercession of faithful friends of our Lord and His Mother enable us to dwell on things that are pure and holy !
1.15.2011 | 12:26pm
Sean says:
Even supposing Origen did castrate himself, what records do we have of other christians in late antiquity castrating themselves? He's a famous example but the only one I've ever heard of.
1.15.2011 | 1:11pm
Sean says:
Again, these guys -Origen, the guy in St. Justin's apology- seem noteworthy because they're the exceptions to the rule.

Are their records of even a significant minority of christians castrating themselves?
1.15.2011 | 3:52pm
@ Sean

There weren't many--there wouldn't be, would there?--but there were some, and that tells us something about the culture of the time and about Christian views of the matter (irregular but not shocking, one might say).

It really was no all that outlandish for a scholar, theologian, or philosopher in Alexandria to have himself gelded if he wanted to devote himself to study without distraction, or if he was hoping to number girls from rich families among his students, or (as in Origen's case) he was going to be a catechist to women. Sometimes it was the only way of getting a good post as a tutor in a rich household with young daughters.

Even so, castration was never a Christian craze. But, given the low opinion of marriage and sex in much of the late antique intellectual world (and, frankly, in the Christian church), it was not considered the horrifying act of madness we see it as being. Remember, early Christians did not value the marriage bed very much, or procreation. Marriage became a sacrament very, very late indeed, and for rather dubious reasons. The early church tolerated marriage, but did not treat it as a sacred institution (though it did see marriage as a realm of moral obligation).
1.15.2011 | 7:18pm
As I read this essay I was playing a game of online scrabble and I came across a couple words that promised to land me a hefty triple word score. Alas, that puny Webster's says they're not actually words. 'Goat' it is.
1.15.2011 | 7:26pm
Niphon says:
While I find his comments as off-putting as anybody else's, to say nothing of my continuing admiration of Mr. Hart's work, I am shocked by the un-Christian treatment of Joe the Human here. I don't think there's much in the way of charity to call someone a "troll."
Perhaps we should lead by example here? By your patience save your souls...
1.15.2011 | 10:10pm
Yokel says:
I always feel stupid whenever I read David Bentley Hart. I want to be as knowledgeable as he. What should I read?
1.15.2011 | 11:57pm
Fred says:
Niphon, I can't deny you have a point, but JTH's constant shallow contrarianism, aggressive ignorance, and treatment of logic that amounts to criminal abuse would be wearing on a saint, and very few of us are saints.
1.16.2011 | 1:03am
Joe the Human, I literally cringed at your response to AL.
That bad, man.
1.16.2011 | 5:18am
Michael PS says:
Andrew Lyttle - If the first canon of Nicea represented a major shift in attitudes, it must have taken place over a comparatively short period: a person who, as a child, saw Origen could have lived to hear of the decrees of Nicea (Origen died in 252 and the council was held in 325)
1.16.2011 | 3:12pm
Billy says:
Castration continued in Italy - the home of Catholicism - with the approval of the Church; until the Pope belatedly outlawed it c. 1875.

For many centuries particularly, the Church allowed "Castrati"; young boy singers especially. Who were regularly castrated - often it seems, without their own voluntary approval. This was done in order that their boyish voices would retain their boyish Soprano late in life; an effect that was approved of by Popes in their church choirs.

Thus, aside from 1) the debated matter of Origen, there 2) are countless other very well-documented Christian religious orders and so forth, sanctioning castration. And 3) allusions to "eunuchs" in the Bible itself. Though especially offensive was the 4) semi- or even involuntary castration of "castrati," in Italy, especially, for church choirs.

It is amazing that there should be any debate at all here, on this subject: five minutes with any standard Encyclopedia entry, on the subject of "Castration," would finally settle this question. For any honest, objective inquirer.
1.16.2011 | 4:59pm
James says:
BIlly is correct. A standard encyclopedia entry:

"Castrati, many of them having Spanish names, first appeared in Italy in the mid-16th century, though at first the terms describing them were not always clear. The phrase Soprano maschio (male soprano), which could also mean falsettist, occurs in the Due Dialoghi della Musica of Luigi Dentini, an Oratorian priest, published in Rome in 1553. On 9 November 1555 Cardinal Ippolito II d'Este (famed as the builder of the Villa d'Este at Tivoli), wrote to Guglielmo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua (1538–1587), that he has heard that His Grace is interested in his cantoretti, and offering to send him two, so that he could choose one for his own service. This is a rare term, but probably does equate to castrato.[2] The Cardinal's brother, Alfonso II d'Este, Duke of Ferrara, was another early enthusiast, enquiring about castrati in 1556. There were certainly castrati in the Sistine Chapel choir in 1558, although not described as such: on 27 April of that year, Hernando Bustamante, a Spaniard from Palencia, was admitted (the first castrati so termed who joined the Sistine choir were Pietro Paolo Folignato and Girolamo Rossini, admitted in 1599).[2] Surprisingly, considering the later French distaste for castrati they certainly existed in France at this time also, being known of in Paris, Orléans, Picardy and Normandy, though they were not abundant: the King of France himself had difficulty in obtaining them.[2] By 1574 there were castrati in the Ducal court chapel at Munich, where the Kapellmeister (music director) was the famous Orlando di Lasso. In 1589, by the bull Cum pro nostri temporali munere, Pope Sixtus V re-organised the choir of St Peter's, Rome specifically to include castrati." (Wikipedia).

Whatever the Church may have said in print against castration in the Council of Nicea or elsewhere, the castration of boys, to sing in religious choirs, was clearly prized by cardinals, and popes, in 16th century Italy for example.
1.16.2011 | 9:45pm
BenK says:
The eternal question of what to live for, to die for, and to kill for. People always fear those who give answers other than their own, because these people are dangerous to any system... particularly those who will kill and die willingly. Or go forward with castration, which is a little death in many ways.
1.17.2011 | 2:08am
edmond says:
C'mon guys, Acts of the Apostles talks about Philip interpreting scripture to the royal eunuch before the Holy Spirit took him 30 kms. away to Azotus. So the castrati isn't
really the main feature of the writer here. Eunuchs have been around for other
reasons than hitting high "c's".

The point of the article obviously is that passion will get us through any human pain, seemingly impossible situations to reach the objective. That such striving is well
beyond the limits of, and cannot be retro-fitted into logical thinking because it defies scientific justification and sometimes gravity.
1.17.2011 | 10:14am
A Lyttle says:
@ Yokel

You should have some conversations with him some time. It might bounce around from Vasari to the history of Chinese calligraphy to Hindu drama to Robert Musil to Eriugena to one or another forgotten composer to Husserl to baseball statistics to Anglo-Saxon poetry to Pindar to Edwin Muir to... And so on. These columns are just skimming the surface.

Some people are born with omnivorous minds. If they're also born into literate families, they have a head start on the rest of us. A large head start.

But, contrary to what Mr Human and a few others often want to suggest, he's actually a very nice bloke with a very generous openness to all sorts of ideas and persons. I think he rather imagines most of the rest of us have as diverse a rage of interests as he has, so don't clue him in.
1.17.2011 | 1:19pm
Mark VA says:
James wrote:

"... the castration of boys, to sing in religious choirs, was clearly prized by cardinals, and popes, in 16th century Italy for example.".

It's interesting how a device used to make a larger point becomes the focus of the discussion, with the larger point forgotten. Perhaps because the device used is castration, a loaded image.

James, my wife did some graduate level work on this very subject, and it is debatable whether the act of castration was "clearly prized" by the cardinals and popes, in spite of certain consequences of 1 Corinthians 14:34. First, castration was not legally sanctioned by the Church or the secular authorities, and was punishable by both. Yet, at the same time, the Italian society, once they got a taste of it, considered the castrati voice superior to that of a falsettist in the quality of the tone, and in its superior range and flexibility. Add to this mix the realization by many poor families that the possession of a trained voice, and the means of "preserving" it, offered an escape from poverty for some of their musically talented children...

In 1770, an English musicologist Charles Burney, while visiting Italy, tried to figure out how the actual deed was done. Those he approached usually gave him the runaround - it's not done here but it's done in Milan, or in Venice, or in Bologna, or that there was an unfortunate "farm accident", a wild bore attack, a fall, etc. The picture that emerges is that all of this was considered an investment in the child, with an underground "service". The prize was professional training and well paid employment on the emerging opera stage, or, as a consolation prize, at least a position in a paid choir. At their height, the more accomplished castrati led the lives similar to today's top pop stars and athletes, with Europe their oyster.

In mid eighteenth century, musical tastes moved away from the spectacular but unnatural fireworks of the castrati, to a more serious, natural, and expressive treatment of the opera and choir music. Besides, and thankfully, women began to be accepted on the stage.

In all of this, an argument can be made that the Church authorities should have reacted sooner when presented with this fait accompli by the parents. Fair enough. In hindsight, of course, a lot of things become clearer.
1.30.2011 | 5:29am
Monel 400 says:
Personally, I'm no fan of castration. But it is easy enough to justify other forms of self-sacrifice, in natural and rational language: often individuals sacrifice themselves ... to save others. A mother wolf, may take on more powerful animals, to save her cubs, and so forth.
2.16.2011 | 3:45pm
Some people are born with omnivorous minds. If they're also born into literate families, they have a head start on the rest of us. A large head start. 1) Of course, many Christians castrated themseves; like Origen. Who was furthermore, arguably in his way, a religious/spiritual person too. Giving up on many material things, to experience the divine ecstasy of self-annihilation etc.. The Popes especially liked and even created legions of castrati; castration left their high, boyish voices intact late in life, and contributed to better church choirs, they thought.
5.26.2011 | 3:04am
But it would not have been considered much of a slander at the time. It was something philosophers of Alexandria occasionally did. As did some Christian scholars. Eusebius reports it not as an accusation against Origen, but as something commonly known. I did not claim to have greater knowledge of said time and place, and if you read carefully you will note that Dr. Hart is ambiguous on the matter ("Origen or any other early Christians who may have had themselves trimmed").
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