This was not the topic I wanted to write about today—Fridays should be days when nothing of importance is ever said—but sometimes one gets unexpectedly diverted.
Just the day before yesterday, Joe Carter produced a column taking the bishops of Arizona to task for their recent denunciation of capital punishment as incompatible with the gospel, and arguing further not only that capital punishment is permissible from a Christian perspective, but that it is positively required by Scripture. I have never met Mr Carter, but we have corresponded, and he seems like a decent and morally serious fellow; so it is with some regret that I take exception to his column in public. But I thought he treated a difficult moral issue with an ill-advised excess of confidence, and with a very questionable use of Scripture and theology.
I realize, of course, that Evangelicals have their own traditions of reading Scripture, and I would have been surprised had Carter treated, say, the story of Noah with quite the bold, broad allegorical brush-strokes one finds in patristic readings. But Evangelicals are also required to get the details right, and on this occasion Carter didn’t; and certainly Evangelicals know, if only from the words of Christ or Paul, that Christians cannot approach the entirety of Scripture as a collection of infallible oracles issuing directly from the lips of God. One really has to consider how Christian are supposed to read the Bible before proclaiming what Scripture “requires” of Christians (the emphasis is Carter’s).
This, at any rate, is the substance of my disagreement with Carter. He does make a passing reference to the dictates of natural law—at second hand, by way of Edward Feser—but I think that can be largely ignored. To be perfectly frank, most natural law arguments on the matter are hopelessly ad hoc constructions, consisting in prescriptions unconvincingly and willfully attached to endlessly contestable descriptions (that’s an argument for another time, though, when the Thomists have all already had their coffee). But, even if capital punishment is entirely in keeping with natural justice (and I am more than willing to grant that it is), that has next to no bearing whatsoever on how Christians should understand their moral obligations with regard to it.
The gospel, after all, is a terribly disturbing thing. Not only are the law of Christian charity and the workings of divine grace not limited to natural justice; they are often positively subversive of it. There is a kind of apocalyptic indifference to the economy of nature in the New Testament, something altogether unnatural—or, let’s just say, supernatural.
One can scarcely exaggerate the extravagance of its departures from the equilibrium of normal justice. For instance, not only does it place individual prohibitions on even proportional retribution, it demands that the Christian compound certain injustices with an excess of compliance—surrendering one’s coat as well as one’s cloak, or more money than is demanded, going a mile farther than one is compelled to do, meeting violent assault by proffering the other cheek, not resisting evil, forgiving one’s brother seventy times seven, and so on.
And then there are God’s curious dealings with his own “everlasting” promises, freely grafting Gentiles into a covenant on which they have no proper claim, without even the requirements of the law, “contrary to nature” (para physin), as Paul says. And, still more shockingly, there is the central mystery of what is said to have happened on Golgotha: not just Christ on the cross asking his Father to forgive those who are murdering him, but the whole drama of God taking the due and natural penalty of all human cruelty, violence, selfishness, and sin upon himself, the full “wrath of the law,” and then offering forgiveness freely to all, exorbitantly outside the bounds of natural justice—and, at Easter, outside even the bounds of natural causality.
None of this may tell us definitively how we should understand a civil government’s obligations regarding the preservation of order. It does tell us, however, that in trying to understand the Christian vision of the social good, natural justice can be neither the first nor the final consideration. It is important, but as yet too limited; it still belongs to the “former things” that are passing away.
So it is to his credit that Carter makes his argument primarily from Scripture and theology. Unfortunately, on both counts, his argument is defective.
Scripture first. Carter invokes the Noachide covenant from the ninth chapter of Genesis, and claims that its “everlasting” authority encompasses the commandment that whosoever sheds his brother’s blood shall have his blood shed in turn. Now, setting aside the rather profound question of how Christian exegetes are to read the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament, or even the purely historical question of how traditionally they have done so, one should still note that there is something problematic about seeing God’s everlasting covenant—his promise—never again to exterminate all life with a flood, and to tie a rainbow around his finger (so to speak) to remind himself of his resolve, as extending to the laws given in the previous verses. Syntactically, it does not.
And would Carter contend, then, that the prohibition on eating meat with its blood is eternally binding as well? Has every Liverpudlian who’s ever dined on black pudding violated God’s everlasting covenant with humanity? And how then should Christians view the Mosaic prescriptions, which are no less “everlasting” in their legitimacy, but which Paul regarded as of no account not only for Gentile Christians, but for Jewish Christians as well (hence his rebukes to Peter for keeping the law for appearance’s sake)? In any event, Carter’s representation of the passage is simply inaccurate.
More unfortunate, however, is his use of Paul’s words in the thirteenth chapter of Romans regarding the power of the sword and the authority God has delegated to earthly rulers. It always surprises me that Christians can find any encouragement in that passage to believe that capital punishment is morally good. Certainly Paul says nothing of the sort. He uses the wonderfully vivid image of the one in authority bearing the sword “not in vain,” but that is a much vaguer metaphor than Carter seems to think it is.
The sword represents the power of coercion, certainly, though not specifically the practice of capital punishment; it has no more prescriptive force than saying, as we might today, “That’s why the police carry guns.” Even if the “sword” really were clearly meant as a symbol of the power to execute criminals, though, Paul is merely saying that Christians who commit crimes may expect to suffer the wrath of God under the form of civil penalty. He certainly makes no comment on the intrinsic justice or injustice of any particular practice of the state.
One assumes, for instance, that he would not necessarily have regarded the Roman habit of crucifying thieves as somehow intrinsically just, even if he believed that a Christian who stole something and was caught had brought about his own condign condemnation. More importantly still, this passage says absolutely nothing about what punishments baptized Christians who might come to power—a contingency Paul never envisaged in his wildest imaginings—ought to impose on criminals. The moral content of the entire passage extends only to the actions of individuals under the law; beyond that, it provides no moral instructions for rulers or lawmakers, and there is simply no warrant for claiming it requires Christians to approve of capital punishment.
As for Carter’s argumentum de silentio in regard to Christ’s words in the fifth chapter of Matthew, it should—like practically all such arguments—be charitably overlooked.
The more significant flaws in Carter’s argument, however, are theological. It is always odd when a Christian argues that the prescriptions and penalties of the law established in the age before Christ make any sort of unambiguous demands upon Christian consciences or putatively Christian societies.
For one thing, it speaks of a failure properly to appreciate the special provocations of Christ’s own teachings regarding the law. Again and again, Christ “preserves” the law—whether as it concerns the Sabbath or as it concerns the due penalty for adultery—by so radically reinterpreting and re-orienting it as practically to invert its consequences.
For another thing, the entire Pauline theology of grace and salvation asserts that the power of the law has been surpassed by the power of God’s free gift, and so the concrete prescriptions of the law—and this means not just circumcision and kosher regulations, but its criminal and penal ordinances as well—have now been set aside. The eternal moral truths that the law contains (do not kill, do not commit adultery, and so forth) remain, but the wrath of the law has been vanquished in Christ.
I often think that modern Christians would be rather disturbed if they were perfectly aware of Paul’s vision of the created order, simply because most of us tend to assume that he was working from premises much like our own. As a result, we rarely grasp how strange and radical his teachings were.
To begin with, though we may think in terms of God’s providential guidance of nature and history, unlike Paul (and unlike a great many Hellenistic Jews at the time) we do not think of that providence in terms of authority delegated to angelic powers ruling from heavenly courts (archontes and exousiai and so forth), as the governors or even “gods” of the nations. But, for Paul, the old age—the age of a fallen creation—is one in which these angelic intermediaries, who are the often rebellious or incompetent deputies of God, rule over the various peoples and “elements” (stoicheia) of the earth.
We, though, tend to read right past Paul’s remarks to the Galatians that the old law was imperfect because it came not directly from God, but from his angel (the angel who reigned over Israel and who appeared to Moses) and was passed through a human mediator (Moses himself). The promise of the new age, by contrast, is that now all of these heavenly powers have been subdued again, under the foot of Christ, and in the age to come Christ himself will rule over all of creation directly.
The book of Romans, of course, provides a deeper, somewhat more nuanced appreciation of the law of Israel, and that is why Romans provides the most stinging rebukes to triumphalist supersessionists. But, even in Romans, the theological vision is constant. All peoples now belong to Christ as a single body; the partitions of law and custom—even good law and honorable custom—have been broken down; and the wrath of the law has been swallowed up in infinite charity. All had once been bound in disobedience (Jew and Gentile alike), that God might now show mercy on all. And all who belong to Christ have entered already into that new creation, and are forbidden now to retreat again to the “elemental” order of the old.
What, then, does this mean with regard to Christian thinking on capital punishment? For myself, the only compellingly convincing answer is that Christians can have no recourse to it, ever; but I will not go so far as to state that I know that this is what Scripture positively requires—certainly not with those sonorous italics. What I will say is that, if the Gospel is in any measure true, then its challenge is far more radical than the sort of argument Carter makes allows.
In Christ—in the historical event of Christ—so profound a re-orientation of moral and metaphysical perspectives has been introduced into history that all our understandings of nature, of holy law, and of moral obligation have been shaken to their foundations. One must first dwell in the sheer wonder of that event before one then tries to make sense of what it demands of us.
Where this will lead, I cannot say with perfect conviction. But, when trying to think of capital punishment in light of that event, I suggest we begin by contemplating the only two episodes in the New Testament that seem to have any direct bearing on the issue, and that involve any clear dominical or divine pronouncements.
The one is the story of the woman taken in adultery, justly condemned to death under the law, whom Jesus nevertheless refuses to condemn, and sends away only with the injunction to sin no more. The other is the story of Christ’s own condemnation at the hands of duly appointed legal authority, for offenses against public order (the cleansing of the temple, after all, was a fairly provocative and, surely in Roman eyes, dangerous act). And that verdict was, of course, overturned by God, and the penalty annulled.
Taken together, these two stories may not lay out an exhaustive table of laws before us, but they certainly afford us a glimpse of the moral and spiritual order of the Kingdom. And, for Christians, it is the law of the Kingdom that is absolute.
David Bentley Hart is contributing editor of First Things. His most recent book is Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies (Yale University Press). His other “On the Square” articles can be found here.
RESOURCES
Joe Carter, Rainbows and Electric Chairs
Comments:
We are talking about a gospel account of Jesus' words. Whatever linguistic precision Jesus possessed in life is mediated through disparate accounts of his sayings. Appealing to his careful use of language (which is ridiculous) to support an argument from silence (also ridiculous) is, as one might expect, ridiculous.
Has civil authority never been wrong? C'mon folks, the persecution of christians into martyrdom, following the jewish conspiracy which led to Jesus' death on the cross was with full civil authority. Talk about capital punishment, this was capital punishment wholesale. Civil authority was in full bloom when pilate asked the crowd to choose between a murderer and Christ, now please tell me civil authority was judicious...
I do not hold Mr. Carter's position, but I think that in this tiff he has at least managed to parry Dr. Hart's roundhouse punches.
Frankly, as ALyttle stated, in response to Mr. Carter's essay, the Noah account is myth. A sophisticated, and erudite interpretation, requires, I believe, that we not consider this literally.
As Dr. Hart points out, Christ has radically transformed our common sense, and natural understanding, of how we relate to others, and our world.
Unless, (as Pope John Paul, stated) this convicted murderer constitutes a threat to the public, that cannot be rectified by locking him up, the death penalty is unwarranted.
As I understand Mr. Carter's argument, he is saying that it is acceptable for Christians to support capital punishment exclusively for the crime of murder. If someone commits murder, then we have a divine warrant to execute the murderer.
However, in the "pages" of this Web site Mr. Carter has also argued that Anwar al-Awlaki can legitimately be executed by the state for the crime of treason, even though he has not been convicted of such crime. Mr. Carter's argument, as I remember it, is that Mr. al-Awlaki is clearly a traitor based on published and broadcast statements he has made, and because of his complicity as an accessory to various terroristic acts recently perpetrated in the United States (one of which, the shootings at Fort Hood, did result in murder). If Mr. Carter still feels this way, then that is at least one other category of crime for which he thinks capital punishment is morally acceptable. However, I see no warrant in the Noahchide covenant or anywhere else in scripture for such a position.
His position is further complicated by the fact that one acceptable way in which Mr. Carter thinks al-Awlaki can be executed is by a missile delivered via predator drone. But what about any people who might happen to be in the vicinity of al-Awlaki and also killed when such a missile explodes? Let's say that those collaterally killed had no association with Mr. Awlaki -- they just happened to be living in the same apartment building or driving by it when the blast occurs. Have those innocents been murdered? Would the contractor in Arlington, Virginia who pulled the trigger on that drone strike be subject to trial and potential execution himself?
So it is disingenuous of Mr. Carter to say that the episode of the woman caught in adultery does not count as an argument against his position because she was not guilty of murder and thus to kill her would violate the Noachide covenant. As far as we know, Mr. al-Awlaki is not guilty of murder either (at most he is an accessory), and yet according to Mr. Carter he is eligible for capital punishment (as well as potentially large numbers of other non-murderers with him).
And speaking of murder, Mr. Carter has clung tenaciously to his position that Jesus, in Matthew 5:39 implicitly retains the penalty of execution for murder. So what then are we to make of Matthew 5:21-22, in which he EXPLICITLY says that anyone who is even angry at a brother is subject to judgment as a murderer? Who then is NOT a murderer (or an adulterer, given the following verses) and therefore deserving of execution, which, of course, may be Jesus's point.
All arguments that the death penalty is intrinsically and always un-Christian because a form of vengeance founder on the plain fact that all forms of punishment, from imprisonment to fines, involve an element of retribution, and would therefore by that logic be un-Christian. If turning the other cheek were an argument against the death penalty (which, of course, Hart is far too intelligent to say, though the bishops of Arizona come close to saying it) then it would be an argument against ALL forms of state-imposed punishment for crime.
(up to and including the use of) ...otherwise Romans would have used the word for "scourge" to mean simply coercion as Mr. Hart infers.
Mr. Hart's conflation of Gn. 9:5-6 with the "law" doesn't work well either since the passage is addressed to both Jews and Gentiles and God gives there a reason that is not temporary...ie that man is made in God's image (unlike in the eating meat matter). God Himself kills intimately throughout the Bible for sacrilege only
( Uzzah, the sons of Achan, Dathan and Abiram, the 72 descendants of Jeconiah, even Onan whose deepest sacrilege was that he was risking the non appearance of Christ through the house of Judah which was only 4 men at that time). Therefore in Genesis 9:5-6, when God gives the death penalty for murder, He ties murder to sacrilege as an attack on an image of God. In "Evangelium Vitae" John Paul repeatedly uses the passage against abortion but never shows the reader the death penalty part as though he could depend on Catholics to not look up the whole passage. The reason for John Paul's selective quoting can be found in section 40 of EV where he infers that the death penalties in the OT were not from God but from an unrefined culture: " Of course we must recognize that in the Old Testament this sense of the value of life, though already quite marked, does not yet reach the refinement found in the Sermon on the Mount. This is apparent in some aspects of the current penal legislation, which provided for severe forms of corporal punishment and even the death penalty.". Apparently John Paul II was unaware of God's lack of refinement after the sermon on the mount in Acts 12 where He has the angel kill Herod and leave his body for worms to eat. Let's remember that under John Paul II and while Benedict was at the CDF, Fr. Raymond Brown was on the Pontifical Biblical Commission...a man who thought Mary never said the Magnificat but Luke stuck that in for dramatic effect ( "Birth of the Messiah" page 349 inter alia). Benedict in his recent Verbum Domini on scripture in section 42 echoes John Paul's revulsion at OT violence and proceeds to note that " the preaching of the prophets vigourously challenged every kind of injustice and
violence, collective and individual...". Apparently Benedict missed Elijah slitting the throats of 450 prophets of Baal; Samuel " hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal" and Eliseus cursing boys 42 of whom were then killed by bears. Whew....the liberal bent on this issue post John Paul II is exhausting to keep up with within Catholicism where as long as you are conservative on birth control, you then can throw the death penalty and by the way wifely obedience out the window and Catholic pundits will still call you conservative.
Scripture testifies that God wills that all be saved, and that His patience is intended for the sinner's salvation. Executing someone takes away all possibility of a future conversion, if the person is not yet repentant. Maybe he would have been in a short time, maybe not. But he would have had the chance.
In any case, I find it ironic that some of the most dedicated advocates of the death penalty are Christians. The central mystery of Christianity is focused on the execution of an innocent man. Should make you think!
I also have heard that it is far more expensive to maintain a prisoner on death row than it is to maintain him for life imprisonment.
However, despite all this, I admit that if someone on death row for a vicious crime were to pass away in the night naturally or by misadventure, I might breathe a little easier. Such is my fallen nature
The meaning of "mediator" in Galatians is absolutely clear, as is that whole passage. By taking issue with Dr Hart here, you are only revealing your ignorance of the theological presuppositions.
Carter's original column was amateurish Evangelical tractarian rubbish, and he ought to withdarw from this fray with his dignity intact.
It would seem that Jesus noted the difference between body & soul when He said "if your hand (eye) causes you to sin, cut it off". Is it possible there may be to much made of the physical world, and not about the spiritual?
Dr Hart made no side-swipe at natural law. He was speaking of most natural law arguments on the matter of capital punishment.
You are confused about the argument regarding the sword. All Dr. Hart said was, as presented in the text, the symbol (and Paul's argument) says nothing about which practices are morally legitimate for Christians in power.
About the sword image, by the way, the sword was rarely an instrument of execution in the first century, except for Roman citizens. The sword, however, was openly borne by temple guards and Roman soldiers, because they had the power to keep order.
I'll also point out that Dr. Hart is too intelligent actually to support the language of the AZ bishops.
Mr. Carter,
Don't, for God's sake, invoke Calvin's reading of the word "mediator" in Galatians. In the 16th century, the language of Hellenistic Judaism was simply unknown. But reading the verse that way is ridiculous, and makes a perfect nonsense of Paul's argument. There is absolutely no question what Paul is saying in that passage. He's perfectly explicit and clear. Calvin cannot follow the argument because he lacked the historical knowledge. You have no such excuse.
Dr. Hart wrote, "It always surprises me that Christians can find any encouragement in that passage [Rom 13] to believe that capital punishment is morally good." I agree. But then, the Orthodox Tradition acknowledges the necessity of many things that are not "morally good", the most prominent of all being war. The Orthodox Church has never advanced the concept of "just war", recognizing that all wars are inherently unjust, not the least because war always involves the taking of human life, and the taking of human life--a life made in the image and likeness of God--is alway sinful. Hence the canons of the Orthodox Church still require soldiers who kill in battle to undergo the canonical penalty for murder, including several years of abstinence from communion (whether, in an age of rampant nationalism, this canon is still enforced by Orthodox bishops is another matter, but also irrelevant). The Orthodox Church recognizes war as, at best, a necessary evil, a last resort for the defense of the innocent and the defense of the state which in turn is the defense of God's people. As the Troparion of the Holy Cross originally stated, "Save your people, O Lord, and bless your inheritance/Grant victory to the Emperors over the barbarians/and protect your people by your Cross". War is necessary, even though sinful, but ultimate victory lies not in arms but in the Cross. And within the Orthodox Church, the two concepts are kept in dynamic tension: in monasticism, it honors and observes the radical pacifism of the early Church, but it also honors those who serve to defend the Church and society by force of arms.
As with war, so with the maintenance of civil order. The Church, neither before nor after the Constantinian settlement, never disputed the right, indeed, the obligation of the state to enforce the law, through imposition of the death penalty if necessary. After the Constantinian settlement, the concept of the symphonia of Church and state implied that the laws of the state would reflect the beliefs and values of the Church--and throughout the Byzantine period, the Church never objected in principle to the use of capital punishment, although it objected strenuously to its unjust imposition. If the Fathers did not object, I fail to see how Dr. Hart can find any warrant for Christians to oppose it per se.
That capital punishment was a necessary evil of the same nature as war can be seen in the repeated litanies for the civil authorities found within the liturgies of the Church. That the Church has been ambivalent about the compatibility of civil service with Christian life is clear from the canons of the early Church which prohibited Christians from serving as magistrates--not only because such service required offering sacrifice to pagan deities, but also because of what we might call "institutional conflict of interest"--at a time when Christianity was illegal, there was an obvious problem with a Christian standing in judgment over another Christian. Later, when the Church began attracting large numbers of the elite, for whom municipal service was unavoidable, the Church compromised by allowing them to serve but excommunicating them for the duration of their term in office (which was just one year). Of course, as the Empire became Christianized, these objections to civil service became moot, but the view that shedding blood was inherently sinful regardless of circumstance remained in the canons that disqualified men who had shed blood from ordained ministry. This applied not only to men seeking ordination, but to men already ordained: if a priest or deacon killed a man, even in self-defense or in defense of another person, he was "returned to the lay state"--no exceptions.
Dr. Hart also wrote:
"The sword represents the power of coercion, certainly, though not specifically the practice of capital punishment; it has no more prescriptive force than saying, as we might today, “That’s why the police carry guns.” Even if the “sword” really were clearly meant as a symbol of the power to execute criminals, though, Paul is merely saying that Christians who commit crimes may expect to suffer the wrath of God under the form of civil penalty. He certainly makes no comment on the intrinsic justice or injustice of any particular practice of the state. "
I have to say that Dr. Hart has not taken into account the nature of Rome judicial and penal practices at the time St. Paul wrote. The Romans did not have real prisons, and did not use imprisonment as a punishment (there were places where accused men were held awaiting trial, and where condemned prisoners were held awaiting punishment, but the notion of putting a man in a cell as punishment was alien to them). Roman punishments took the form of beating (with rods), scourging (with a whip), enslavement, or death. Death for a Roman citizen generally took the form of beheading (as happened with Paul) or strangling, whereas death for a non-citizen usually took the form of crucifixion (as happened to St. Peter). Torture was generally not seen as a punishment, but as an interrogation technique; Roman law did not accept the testimony of any slave who had not been tortured.
So, when Saint Paul writes about the power of the sword, it is metaphorical, but it is also powerfully literal--as all of his readers knew. Roman authorities--usually in the form of the army--carried swords and knew how to use them (similarly, the fasces carried by the lictors who escorted Roman magistrates were both symbolic of his power, but also practical: those rods were used to beat minor offenders, that axe could be used to lop off a head--and they were).
Paul's view seems to have been that, as a consequence of Adam's fall, man had been put under the authority of kings and emperors, who were obligated to maintain order through human laws and human penalties. Because these laws were creations of fallen human beings, they could at best be mere images of God's law; and their enforcement by fallen human beings could be, at best, a mere image of divine justice. Indeed, because laws are made and enforced by fallen humans, the potential for injustice is always present, yet Paul says Christians should submit to the law, even if it is unjust, for their true reward awaits them in the Kingdom of God.
If there is a notion that is purely metaphorical, it is the term "the wrath of God". God is impassible, yet wrath is a passion. Surely, when biblical authors use the term, they are engaging in anthropomorphism, lacking the ability to explain God's actions except by metaphor and analogy. A God who is impassible, and whose very nature is love itself, is ontologically incapable of wrath. So the term means something else, and to me it seems a way of saying that against the evil ones and unrepentant sinners, God removes his protecting hand and allows them to suffer the logical consequences of their sins. In that sense, God does not punish us, so much as we punish ourselves, both here on earth, and in the world to come.
There is much else that could be written, since Dr. Hart's work is always dense and multidimensional. I do wish, though, that in addition to taking on Joe Carter's article, he would turn his mind to David Gelernter's 1999 Commentary article, "What Do Murderer's Deserve?", whose argument for capital punishment for murder as a necessary affirmation of the sanctity of human life I consider to be the best and most compelling I have yet read, and one which nobody to my knowledge has ever addressed head-on in a serious and scholarly manner. Gelernter, as a learned, pious and observant Jew, has made an argument I find to be overwhelmingly powerful, and if there is a Christian objection to it, I have not seen it in print to date.
Retribution is not vengeance.
Jesus spoke out against many customs and behaviors, divorce, usury, homosexuality, greed etc.
Jesus never once speaks out against capital punishment.
This is something of a straw man argument. Anwar al-Awlaki (formerly imam of the mosque down the road from me) is being targeted as an enemy combatant, a role he manifestly occupies as an al-Qaeda operational leader, propagandist, recruiter and ideologist. He's a legitimate military target in the same way that members of our Joint Chiefs of Staff are legitimate military targets--they occupy analogous positions.
Were Awlaki to be captured by our forces (and I am deeply torn on whether the information that could be extracted from him is worth the inconveniences arising from allowing him to surrender), he could indeed be indicted for treason and tried for that crime (one of two actually mentioned by name in the Constitution). And the traditional punishment for treason has always been death. As to why that is the case, in the Judeo-Christian Tradition, it goes back to the concept of covenant breaking at a time when the state was inseparable from its faith. Thus, to betray the tribes of Israel, or the Davidic Kingdom, or later the divided kingdoms of Judah and Israel, was to betray the Mosaic covenant with God himself. Later, when the Roman Empire completely identified itself with the Church of Christ, to betray the Empire was to betray Christ and his Church. We, of course, do not identify the state with the Church, but the concept of a sacred covenant between citizen and the state to which he belongs still exists, albeit not much among our more enlightened elites.
How, pray tell, does one maintain order with a sword, unless by the threat of or actual shedding of blood in profuse amounts? Whether its a gladius or a spatha, there is very little you can do to maintain order with a sword, other than hacking off heads and limbs or perforating internal organs. It's the knowledge that there is a long piece of pointy nastiness at the soldier's side that makes the potential rabble-rouser hold his tongue.
You have missed an essential point in Dr Hart's article, if you don't mind me saying. There is nothing you have said with which he would necessarily disagree, based on this column. His point was that none of what Paul says tells us what is *required* of Christians who might make laws.
As for the sword image, Dr Hart is right: yes, Romans and Temple Guards carried swords; they had the power of coercion; but that does not refer simply to the practice of executing a criminal at the end of a trial, and it does not tell us what practices are just from a Christian perspective.
When you write:
"If there is a notion that is purely metaphorical, it is the term "the wrath of God". God is impassible, yet wrath is a passion. Surely, when biblical authors use the term, they are engaging in anthropomorphism, lacking the ability to explain God's actions except by metaphor and analogy. A God who is impassible, and whose very nature is love itself, is ontologically incapable of wrath. So the term means something else, and to me it seems a way of saying that against the evil ones and unrepentant sinners, God removes his protecting hand and allows them to suffer the logical consequences of their sins. In that sense, God does not punish us, so much as we punish ourselves, both here on earth, and in the world to come."
I take it you are saying something that is exactly in keeping with Dr Hart's remarks on Paul's argument. I'm not sure why you think you are in disagreement with him here.
And yet Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nanzianzen would say that the pagan virtues are much more often consistent with and at the service of the theological virtues.
One might say, “Well, he was no theologian and therefore unaware of the (alleged) injustice of his fate.” Then consider St. Paul, arguably the greatest theologian on earth since the Ascension. He stood as a prisoner before a man of whom he had previous written “does not bear the sword in vain” (Rom. 13:4), Governor Festus, and stated he would not seek to escape death if he had done something that deserved it (Acts 25:11).
We have two New Testament witnesses here. One was experiencing capital punishment and the other was a better theologian than all of us put together.
Both side with Mr. Carter.
On the other hand, Russian Orthodox and most other Slavic Orthodox do. I suspect that the Greek aversion to blood dishes is cultural, not religious (I can't find any evidence of them eating blood in Classical Greece), in contrast to the practices of the Syrians, Phoenicians and Romans. That the Orthodox Christians of the Middle East do not eat blood probably has less to do with noahide prohibitions than with the customs of the Muslim majority among whom they have to live.
But not for the reasons Carter espouses.
This theory that we only needed the death penalty in the past because they didn't have secure prisons is laughable. Stick someone in a dungeon chained to a wall and they weren't going anyplace. If JPII wanted to change the Church's position on the death penalty, he should have actually addressed the tradition, not tried to evade it.
" I propose that it is impossible to reconcile the death penalty with the radical nature of Christian charity. "
I wonder how Augustine and Aquinas missed that? Obviously morons.
Calvin lacked most of the ancient texts, both Jewish and Christian, which scholars now have at their disposal. Calvin in his day, with the meager sources available to him, might well maintain that it was to Christ that Paul referred in this verse, but since his time it has become virtually beyond dispute that the "intermediary" mentioned is Moses.
The fact that Jesus clearly presumed to "correct" the Law itself ("... but I say to you..."), or at least how it was usually interpreted by the contemporary authorities (for example, in the Sermon on the Mount), should alert us to the fact that something quite new and radical appears with Jesus' teachings -- and Paul carried this same radical view straight into the contexts in which he operated.
Suppose a murderer sentenced to life in prison, realizing he has decades to convert, puts off his redemption, but then is stabbed to death in the recreation yard a year after he is in prison.
no more subtlety these days in neo-thomist theology and (finally) the victory of the "Protestant God" (I guess is the only one who can "beat" Allah...and Christianity for good)
in these conditions, Christ remains (forever) on the cross!
I guess my main problem is Dr. Hart chose to respond to Mr. Carter's article in an extremely narrow manner, addressing the argument's Carter advanced to support his position, rather than evaluating the position itself. I personally found Carter's arguments in support of capital punishment to be weak and unconvincing for many of the reasons enumerated by Dr. Hart and others (and Carter's fondness for reversion to the Noahide covenant I find particularly annoying--as I did in his item on the killer killer whale).
But I would have preferred Dr. Hart to advance the Orthodox argument for capital punishment, which certainly is ambivalent on many points, but all the more interesting for that. As some critics of Mr. Carter advanced patristic witness against capital punishment, it would have been interesting to see how Dr. Hart interpreted the consensus patriae on the matter, to say nothing of the witness and actions of the Orthodox Church in the Byzantine period and beyond.
“If you assume that the targeted killing of terrorist leaders is legitimate, then there should be no moral qualms about targeting Al-Awlaki. Also, if you assume that giving the death penalty to citizens who have committed treason is legitimate, then there should be no political qualms with putting Al-Awlaki to death for that crime.” Joe Carter, “Not So Squishy,” First Things, April 8, 2010.
I do not want to hijack this thread with the question of whether the government has a right to execute Al-Awlaki either as a traitor or an enemy combatant. The reason I brought it up was because I took Mr. Carter to be arguing that Christians can and should support capital punishment for murderers, and only murderers. Maybe I was mistaken in that. He clearly thinks capital punishment is acceptable for treason, and perhaps his theological argument for that is forthcoming. At various times, the “traditional punishment” for a great range of crimes has been death, but I did not take Mr. Carter to be arguing for the legitimacy of capital punishment in general, for whatever crime it is deemed appropriate. His denial of the legitimacy of death for adultery led me to that conclusion, at which point I was able to think of at least one non-capital crime for which he did think death was the appropriate punishment.
Interestingly, the Byzantines would have agreed with you. They were loathe to apply the death penalty, and in fact did it rarely precisely because of the possibility of repentance. And that's why they preferred to impose penalties such as blinding and mutilation, which they saw as merciful: on the one hand, retribution has been exacted, and the offender has been rendered harmless; on the other hand, he has the opportunity to reflect upon his ill-spent life and to repent.
But, as Dr. Samuel Johnson said, "Nothing so concentrates the mind as the knowledge that one is to be hanged in a fortnight". And that goes for repentance as much as for setting worldly affairs in order.
It is interesting that the Popes of Rome--who were secular as well as spiritual rulers for more than a millennium--imposed capital punishment as much if not more often than many of the kings and princes who were their secular peers. Rome was an unruly place at the best of times, and the penal code of the Papal States specified death as the penalty not only for murder, but also for sodomy, counterfeiting, rape, arson and a host of lesser crimes.
I suppose one reason none of the more recent Heirs of Peter have seen fit to denounce capital punishment in unambiguous terms is it would mean overturning consistent rulings by their predecessors that not only accepted but endorsed capital punishment. That would be massively inconvenient, to say the least. Instead, the teachings of the Latin Church place the conditions under which capital punishment is to be used under the prudential judgement of the secular authorities (just as the conditions under which war can be employed is left to prudential judgment of the secular authorities). Which is all for the best, considering that churchmen seldom demonstrate any real competence in addressing secular problems, whether these be criminal, economic, ecological or international. When groups of bishops, or priests, or laymen come out with statements saying "The Catholic Church prohibits use of the death penalty (or war, for that matter), be sure you are getting the cartoon version of Catholic doctrine.
But Jesus was not executed for cleansing the Temple. He was only executed because Pilate lost his nerve and caved-in to the mob. Pilate was a duly appointed legal authority, but his acquiesence in Christ's execution was an unjust act.
Perhaps the use of force is not primarily a means "to protect society" against the lawbreaker. While punishment, for example, certainly has the function of protecting the members of a society against the disorganization of their lives by the disturbing actions of their fellow members, it also has the purpose of restoring the personal order in the soul of the delinquent and, as far as that is possible, of reconstructing him as a person. It is hard to do this when the person is dead.
Yeah, but you can't expect Dr Hart to write a whole treatise in a few hours for a web column. He was responding specifically to Carter's arguments because Carter's arguments were so crudely confident and absolute, and so theologically bizarre.
Hart's view of "Christian tradition" and "orthodoxy" is much closer to Radical Orthodoxy and so-called postliberalism, even though the latter voices have become increasingly marginalized due to the right-ward listing of First Things, especially its online presence. Rather silently and without much explanation, Spengler and the Gateway Pundit have, I'm tempted to say, slithered away. Surely, they were a sign of the times at First Things—when hard right political commitments trumped theological conviction. Some commenters have tried to lay this at the feet of Bottum, but this listing rightwards was there in Neuhaus, in spades. I wish Reno the best in what I hope will be an effort to reform the politics of First Things in light of its aspirations to theological seriousness.
I wonder how Augustine and Aquinas missed that?"
I don't know what Augustine or Aquinas had to say on the radical nature of the theological virtues. I'd be curious to find out. Nevertheless I suspect that Augustine and Aquinas, being influenced by Plato and Aristotle respectively, would have much to say about the reasonableness of the pagan virtues. Greek philosophy is very concerned about interpreting the world in a reasonable way, through rational analysis and universal rules. Chesterton's point is that what is new about Christianity is that it proposes a departure from the rational, e.g. loving your enemy. As Chesterton said: "the second evident fact, which is even more evident, is the fact that the pagan virtues are the reasonable virtues, and that the Christian virtues of faith, hope, and charity are in their essence as unreasonable as they can be".
"The sword, however, was openly borne by temple guards and Roman soldiers, because they had the power to keep order."
How, pray tell, does one maintain order with a sword, unless by the threat of or actual shedding of blood in profuse amounts? Whether its a gladius or a spatha, there is very little you can do to maintain order with a sword, other than hacking off heads and limbs or perforating internal organs. It's the knowledge that there is a long piece of pointy nastiness at the soldier's side that makes the potential rabble-rouser hold his tongue. "
That, at least is only partly true. Swords can be used non-lethally by using the flat or using the edge in a precision manner. One of the main uses swords had in eighteenth century warfare was for officers to have a means of herding cowards back into the line(they never talked about that part much as it was rather inglorious use of swords). In other words they can be a very useful riot control tool. They are far more useful then firearms for instance because of their flexibility.
It is not untrue that the threat of lethal force was a key component of the use of swords for keeping order. It is however equally not true that a sword can only be used lethally . In other words mr Koehl's claim is as I said partly true but only partly.
Well, that's a self-serving remark. No one's forcing me to say anything. But I will make one intervention here, for clarity's sake, and then hie me unto another place.
So--a few quick points.
Mr Carter is right that we have very different understandings of how to read scripture. I have to admit that I find the "literalist" and "oracularist" traditions of the Evangelicals impossible to take very seriously, as they lead to manifest incoherence. But there you have it. I am both "modern" and "ancient" enough in my thinking to see the matter quite differently than he does--but I'll write a proper article on that some time soon, and shelve the issue here, as it would take many thousands of words. I'll say that my perspective is partly the same as that of my erstwhile semi-student Mr. Lyttle, though more scintillatingly expressed.
Also, in suggesting that the story of the woman taken in adultery is irrelevant here, Mr Carter is making a neat and very modern distinction that would not have been obvious in the time of Christ. Whatever the case, on the one occasion Christ is said to have encountered a capital offense, his way of keeping the law was to set the standard for its execution so impossibly high ("Let him who is without sin...") that the penalty was annulled and replaced with forgiveness. If he can't see why that's significant in this argument, I submit that Mr Carter is not thinking very deeply about the problem.
There seems to be some confusion about my remarks on the "sword," so let me clarify them. I did not mean to suggest that Paul wasn't referring to the power to kill or wound. The sword was used for many things--execution (rarely, as other means were more common), mutilation, crowd control, war, etc. It was also carried quite openly by duly appointed authorities. Thus it is an image of the coercive power of those authorities, in all their functions, to whom God has providentially allowed certain powers, including the power to kill. Still, it is not a symbol that tells us how Christians should view the intrinsic moral legitimacy of any particular form of state control. Paul and the New Testament grant that God often delegates powers to subordinate offices--earthly rulers, heavenly archons--without suggesting that the things those offices do with those powers are just in themselves. And the sword image most certainly says nothing about what sort of laws would be required of Christians if they were in power. Paul expected this present world to fold up its tents fairly soon. I take Paul to be saying what Mr Koehl says about divine wrath (though Mr Koehl seems to think we disagree). Whatever the case, there is nothing in these words prescribing what Christian governments ought or ought not to do. Hence, Carter's use of the passage is utterly unconvincing.
Also, Stephen (Barr that is), I did not say anything in favor of the language of the Arizona bishops. I have not even read their proclamation, since I rarely want to know what bishops say about anything. I also did not say that the answer that I personally find most compellingly convincing is also the one I would say is required by the text. I will be honest, though, and tell you up front that the tradition on this issue to which you refer, stretching from Augustine to Aquinas (and beyond), is indeed one I reject. Augustine and Aquinas say a great many things that I reject, especially things about divine grace. But I have a fairly apocalyptic view of the gospel, so I'm not trustworthy on questions about the maintenance of civic order. All I can say is that, for Christians, the full wrath of the law was supposedly absorbed into the death of Christ, once and for all, and that that ought to leave us with a very altered sense of the range of our coercive rescript.
One last point, though, that absolutely must be made. Mr Carter invokes Calvin's attempts to understand Paul's remarks in Galatians on the delivery of the law. I'm sorry, but this simply is not a matter open to interpretation. In Calvin's day, scholars had no access to the sort of texts from Jewish and Christian late antiquity that we possess now in such abundance, and so they had only a very hazy notion of what Paul was talking about when he spoke of archons and powers and thrones and wickedness in high places. Hence they, and he, had a very hard time making sense of passages like the one in Galatians (Calvin's reading is manifestly incoherent, but it's the best he could manage). He simply did not know the cosmological or religious vision within which Paul operated. Today, we have no excuse for such confusions, and hence we are able to read the text from Galatians without any trouble. Again, though, it has long been my belief that if most Christians knew what Paul believed, they would find it odd and outlandish. I think I'll write a article on that as well, though, because--again--it takes several thousand words to say it. Here it is enough to point out that Carter needs to improve his scholarship on the New Testament a little before addressing matters of that sort. That is not meant to sound condescending; but I do have a somewhat better knowledge of these sources than he does.
D'accord. I suspect Joe Carter is a good guy, but the difference between his remarks (Wednesday and here) and Dr Hart's argument is the difference between largely untutored simplicity and very erudite sophistication. Sometimes simplicity can be right and sophistication can be wrong, of course, but that wasn't the case here. I really don't think Joe Carter knows enough yet (I assume he's pretty young) to understand what Dr. Hart is saying, or how much real concrete scholarly knowledge leads him to his conclusions.
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/08/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment-21
Dr. Hart evidently thinks that the "power of the sword" means simply the power of civil government to inflict some sort of punishment. The phrase clearly means, however, punishment up to and including the actual use of the sword.
The counter-examples (woman caught in adultery, crucifixion of thieves, Jesus' crucifixion) do not exemplify what they are supposed to exemplify. In the first, Jesus shows mercy to one caught in a non-violent offense. The second is not a proportionate punishment. Finally, Jesus' execution was obtained unlawfully. These are not typical examples of the death penalty; in fact, supporters of the death penalty would not be in favor of any of these executions or proposed executions: non-violent offense, non-proportionate punishment, unlawful conviction?
Since Dr. Hart is in favor of living in society by the application of purely supernatural Christian ethics, I would like to borrow $100,000 from him. I promise it will go toward a good cause (seriously--it won't be for me), but I also promise I will not pay it back. Luke 6:30. I will send my address on request.
My apologies on this point. Dr. Hart clarified his thoughts on the meaning of the phrase, and I dashed past his clarification.
The sword may not have been the primary instrument of execution, but it was the primary "instrument of state power" --- my actual words. It was the primary weapon of Roman soldiers. The Roman Empire spread and maintained its power literally, not figuratively, by the sword.
I think I understood Hart's argument. But I disagree with your notion that Romans 13 has no implications for how Christians in power should act. St. Paul spoke of the magistrate with no apparent limitation to pagan magistrates.
That is reading something into the text without any warrant in the text. But if one is to distinguish pagan and Christian magistrates, then surely if a pagan magistrate can act as "God's minister" so, a fortiori, can a Christian magistrate. Moreover, Catholic theologians from St. Augustine to St. Thomas, to modern times have always seen in Romans 13 an authorization for capital punishment for grave crimes even in the case of Christian magistrates.
One thing I cannot fathom: Why is it that so many people who want the death penalty abolished insist, against all historical evidence, that the death penalty is intrinsically immoral from the standpoint Christian moral teaching? Why cannot they simply be content to say that in modern conditions it would better all things consider to refrain from using it?
Dear Mr. Voegelin,
Of course, I don't speak for you. Nor do I speak for Catholicism. I don't know how you got the idea that I claimed to be doing either. No one, neither I nor you, is entitled to our own private Catholicism.
I did not rest my statements on some putative authority of my own. I rested it on two thousand years of Catholic tradition, including very clear statements of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope Pius XII, not to mention virtually all theologians since Augustine's day. And even now, the Catholic bishops usually take care in their statements on this subject to note that they do not deny at the theoretical level the right of the state to impose the death penalty.
You may blow off what I say, Mr. Voegelin, but you cannot blow off what the magisterium of the Catholic Church has always said and continues to say. You have have doubtless already read it, but if not I think you would find it interesting to read St. Thomas Aquinas on the subject. Also very illuminating is the lucid article on capital punishment by the late Cardinal Avery Dulles in the pages of First Things exactly ten years ago. Here is the link
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/08/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment-21
Some quotes from Dulles's article:
"In the New Testament the right of the State to put criminals to death seems to be taken for granted."
"The early Christians evidently had nothing against the death penalty.'
"Turning to Christian tradition, we may note that the Fathers and Doctors of the Church are virtually unanimous in their support for capital punishment,..."
"Summarizing the verdict of Scripture and tradition, we can glean some settled points of doctrine. It is agreed that crime deserves punishment in this life and not only in the next. In addition, it is agreed that the State has authority to administer appropriate punishment to those judged guilty of crimes and that this punishment may, in serious cases, include the sentence of death."
Dulles bases these statements of his on the explicit statements of Catholic Fathers, Doctors and theologians from Patristic times down to the present. So, don't take it from ME, Mr. Voegelin!
"Nowhere in the literature of pagan antiquity, I assure you, had the tears of a rustic been regarded as worthy of anything but ridicule; to treat them with reverence, as meaningful expressions of real human sorrow, would have seemed grotesque from the perspective of all the classical canons of good taste."
It seemed to me that Dr. Hart probably knew classical literature well enough to be familiar with Ovid's Metamorphoses VIII, 611-724, in which two rustics Baucis and Philemon weep and so move the gods by their tears that they are granted the gift of becoming a pair of intertwining trees so they need never be separated by death. Because of this and a few other disturbing lines in the essay, I concluded that I was reading a cheap anti-pagan polemic - that there was more ressentiment than Christianitas in the essay.
I'd like to take all that back and formally extend the olive branch of friendship. While First Things as a whole has been doing a very good job of discrediting its claim to Christianitas by printing the warmongering of George Weigel, thinly propagandizing the anti-life and anti-justice policies of one political party, blatantly misrepresenting Buddhism, skewering religious minorities, and now (and this was going to end my subscription) justifying capital punishment, David Hart has been saving the magazine with his idiosyncrasy, wit, localism, fairies and magic, Neo-Platonism, and stubborn Christianitas. If only they would bring Paul Griffiths back as a regular contributor on international affairs, I might consider renewing. The Christian world needs more broad-minded and conscientious thinkers than political hacks.
On the question of Romans 13, it seems pretty clear (and Mr. hart says as much) that Paul described the powers that bear not the sword in vain as outside the Christian faith. In Romans 12, ("overcome evil with good") Paul is talking to the believers. There is a nice "Us/Them" division between the two chapters.
In reference to all the wrangling over how to justify a Christian magistrate using his authority to "bear the sword", to pull the trigger, Mr. Hart already said that the gospel is beyond natural justice. Christians working in governments of this world has been fraught with problems since the council of Nicea.
One of the things that stood out to me while reading Philip Jenkins' book, The Lost History of Christianity, was the great sorrow that was brought to the church because of- because of- its union with the state. It happened over and over.
Read it sometime. also, read the opening two or three pages of Paul Johnson's The History of the Jews. He explains that seeing the world through Jewish eyes is seeing the world from a very unusual angle. One can't just jump into a Jewish perspective. The same is true of what Jesus Christ brought. One can't simply tack a generic "faith" to the world as it always has been. Rather, (and I recommend here that you try reading the italicized checklist in the final chapter of Avery Dulles's The Assurance of Things Hoped For) Christian faith leads a person to God. When a Christian prays, "Thy kingdom come" he does his prayer an injustice and a trivialization to think that he can then nurse a love for wordly politics and perhaps even be a little disappointed when that prayed-for kingdom finally does fully come. "Oh rats, now I can't pull triggers anymore!" To baptize a love of politics by calling it a love of justice is still too short of the high calling of Jesus. Try a love of grace instead. Try "giving place unto wrath". Try living like God is a real and active Player in this drama of life. Hey, try praying to Him.
Before hitting send, I'd like to hear Mr. Hart put out a few more words on his comments about spirits. 'Spirit' is closely related to 'speech'. Thus, as Hart shared, the inspiration for the law came by an angel. Acts 2 has a bit of speech/spirit connection. The spirit of the antiChrist says, speaks, something. And none of your words can be uttered without a movement of your breath, not even the Word that proceeds from the Father.
"Since Dr. Hart is in favor of living in society by the application of purely supernatural Christian ethics, I would like to borrow $100,000 from him. I promise it will go toward a good cause (seriously--it won't be for me), but I also promise I will not pay it back. Luke 6:30. I will send my address on request."
Hmm, I must have missed that part of Dr. Hart's argument. I thought all he was saying here was that the notion that the death penalty is not required by scripture for Christians, not that law and order are completely nullified.
Dr. Barr,
I still think you're wrong. Paul says nothing about the justice of the practices of pagan or Christian magistrates. That simply ain't the point. If you're really saying that God's delegation of the power to punish to the state also means that the state is always acting in accord with God's will when it punishes, you are saying something obviously false. It is quite possible for Paul to argue that God gives the authorities powers to punish for his providential ends without saying that they are free from guilt if they punish unjustly. And he's certainly NOT saying that capital punishment is required, especially of a Christian society. So Carter's use of this passage, as well as yours, is not valid or compelling.
I know the Dulles article, by the way. I don't think it's very good. His argument really is largely de silentio on the New Testament, and is largely irrelevant, because it assumes Christians saw themselves as participants in society in a way that, in the first century, they really did not. There was a lot of "rendering unto Caesar" going on, but that doesn't mean they had a high opinion of Caesar or his governance.
I assure you, Dr Hart is no knee-jerk anti-pagan polemicist. He lives much of his life in the antique world. I'm glad you've seen the light. The Christ and Nothing article was a statement about what had happened in history and where we are now, and how Christianity both was an accidental midwife of modern nihilism and remains as its only cure. It was a remarkably rich argument, I thought, but not triumphalist. That's why I sought him out and made his acquaintance some years ago.
And I agree: More Paul Griffiths, please!
"The gospel, after all, is a terribly disturbing thing. Not only are the law of Christian charity and the workings of divine grace not limited to natural justice; they are often positively subversive of it. There is a kind of apocalyptic indifference to the economy of nature in the New Testament, something altogether unnatural—or, let’s just say, supernatural.
"One can scarcely exaggerate the extravagance of its departures from the equilibrium of normal justice. For instance, not only does it place individual prohibitions on even proportional retribution, it demands that the Christian compound certain injustices with an excess of compliance—surrendering one’s coat as well as one’s cloak, or more money than is demanded, going a mile farther than one is compelled to do, meeting violent assault by proffering the other cheek, not resisting evil, forgiving one’s brother seventy times seven, and so on."
"The early Christians evidently had nothing against the death penalty"
...huh? Tertullian (De idolatria, De corona) was a Christian. Origen (Contra Celsum) was a Christian. The "soldier martyrs" (St. Maximilian, St. Marinus, et al., see their acta) were Christians. The Scillitan martyrs (again, see their acta) were Christians. All of these, in various ways, seem to have objected to the death penalty "on the record."
The first several hundred years of Christianity were marked by disagreement among Christians as to the appropriateness of civic violence (e.g. death penalty, war). Some Christians apparently didn't have anything against the death penalty. Others apparently did. Dulles was just plain wrong about this point, if that out of context quote actually reflects his intended point.
You're not going to find an absolute requirement to support the death penalty in sacred tradition, nor an absolute requirement to oppose it--unless of course you write orthodox Christians (the martyrs) and non-orthodox but still relevant Christians (T. & O.) out of tradition.
(Note that I'm speaking from the Orthodox perspective here -- I suspect much of this debate is moving toward/coming from a fundamental difference in how Catholics and Orthodox understand the nature of tradition's authority. [As to evangelicals, I confess ignorance.] But the fact of early Christian disagreement is just that, fact.)
The “Christian tradition” from the time of Christ ‘til now has accepted the validity of capital punishment. But some have said that this tradition never penetrated more than 10% of the way into the Gospels. (Witness the Holocaust.)
One of these was Thomas Merton, no lightweight, who denounced war and capital punishment as barbaric. His anti-war position was subtle and recognized the possibility of tragedy in a refusal to go to war.
Another writer whom everyone who presumes to pronounce on capital punishment should read is William Wink, a “radical” peacenik. Like Merton, he argues we have failed to grasp the clear teaching of the Gospel. Before pronouncing on capital punishment we must read his absorbing small book “Jesus and Nonviolence” (Fortress Press), which makes a powerful case for nonviolence, including with respect to capital punishment.
I accepted the legitimacy of “just war” and capital punishment until I read these people. Now I don’t know. I don’t buy Mr. Carter’s argument that capital punishment is actively requird by the Gospels.
And perhaps we could get Stanley Hauerwas back too! We really need the intellectual integrity of the Radical Orthodoxy-style postliberal theologians here at First Things, and less political hackwork where right-wing convictions matter more than the tradition.
This Thomist had her coffee.
I don’t deny that Natural Law arguments are difficult—and may even seem endless. I also will agree (with the Church _and_ St. Thomas!) that in part because of the difficulty of such arguments, revelation is necessary. But “natural justice . . . has next to no bearing whatsoever on how Christians should understand their moral obligations”?
Really?
Let me refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm).
“The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. . . . The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. . . . The natural law is _immutable_ [emphasis in the original] and permanent throughout the variations of history; it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. . . . The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.”
In other words, the Natural Law is incomplete, but not incorrect.
The popes have oftentimes made arguments based on natural law and refer to it with respect in their writings and speeches. (Think of "Mit Brennender Sorg"; of the numerous social encyclicals, particularly "Humanae Vitae"; and of the February 2007 address by Pope Benedict (given to the International Congress on Natural Moral Law, no less!). The address is worth quoting from. Benedict says that
“[t]he capacity to see the laws of material being makes us incapable of seeing the ethical message contained in being, a message that tradition calls _lex naturalis_, natural moral law. . . . all the urgency of the necessity to reflect upon the theme of natural law and to rediscover its truth common to all men appears. The said law, _to which the Apostle Paul refers (cf. Rom 2: 14-15)_ [emphasis mine], is written on the heart of man and is consequently, even today, accessible.”
Later he adds that “Natural law is, definitively, the only valid bulwark against the arbitrary power or the deception of ideological manipulation. The knowledge of this law inscribed on the heart of man increases with the progress of the moral conscience.”
I would suggest that the New Law did not so much supplant the Natural Law (though the Evangelical counsels do of course surpass it) as correct the Old Law in places where the Old Law deviated from the Natural. If you try rereading the passages in St. Paul in this light, you may see how possible—even how likely—this interpretation is. But what about a Gospel example that provides some evidence for this position?
“And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. . . . Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.”—Matthew, 19:3-8.
My apologies for the length of this comment—but arguments from authority have their own deficiencies, and length is usually one of them.
By all means continue to debate about the death penalty. But don’t diss natural law, OK? ;)
Are you aware of Merton's affair with a young engaged nurse while he was a famous Trappist? That does not void everything he ever said but it does raise a flag about his capacity to be deceived by you know who. We accept Augustine as insightful because he repented of those things and stopped them after Orders and wasn't deceived after Orders. Merton sinned that way prior to Orders and well after Orders. Google it. It just means that when he departs from notable saints on the death penalty or war....why would we care?
“All arguments that the death penalty is intrinsically and always un-Christian because a form of vengeance founder on the plain fact that all forms of punishment, from imprisonment to fines, involve an element of retribution, and would therefore by that logic be un-Christian.”
There are two aspects to punishment:
The first relates to protecting the community. The community is protected by removing the offender and eliminating his opportunity to cause disorder. The community is protected by having in place disincentives to cause disorder, such as the threat of incarceration. The community is protected by having the means to exact retribution for the disorder occasioned, by fines or community service, for example.
The second aspect of punishment serves the purpose of acting to restore, or to construct, an ordered soul in the one who perpetrates disorder.
While capital punishment might serve the first of the above aspects, it is not at all likely that it should serve the second. Indeed, it would almost certainly snuff the possibility of such service. That is why capital punishment is intrinsically wrong, Mr. Barr.
By the way, vengeance is not the same as retribution. Your conflation of the two is typical of the sloppiness with which you throw together positions that you then pass off as being Catholic. Please stop doing this.
I start the thought of the death penalty where Dr. Hart ends up: that it is hard in light of the Gospel to figure where such fits into a Christian sense of justice. I have read Augustine and Thomas and find both their conclusions painfully contrived to achieve a logical end the same way I did: by starting with the conclusion and finding the rationale towards it. Catholic natural law does not do well with promoting the death penalty.
I sense within Catholicism a movement of "development" on the matter of capital punishment. That theological development occurs is not unheard of, and I suspect capital punishment will be viewed as such. Issues of Christians in military service and usury are two such points that have "developed." Dr. Hart seems to suggest this is a direction
Thank you for the thought provoking argument. I wish conservatives would argue more often.
The Kingdom, in the sense you appear to be talking about it, is only going to come when Christ returns. It never ceases to amaze me how the Christian Left appears to believe that they have the ability create the Kingdom prior to that return.
You are making some fantastic leaps of logic in interpreting what I said above.
Where, pray tell, did I say, or even come anywhere near to saying, that magistrates are "free from guilt if they punish UNJUSTLY"? My only point is that Romans 13 does support the proposition that God has delegated to the state the authority to punish crimes -- even with the death penalty in some cases. How you get from that to the idea that I am saying that "the state is ALWAYS acting in accord with God's will when it punishes" is quite beyond me. Besides not following from anything I actually said, it would be a totally moronic thing for me to assert.
The simple fact, supported by massive historical evidence, is that the magisterium of the Catholic Church has always (ever since it had a clear teaching on the subject) explicitly recognized the authority of the state to inflict the death penalty in SOME cases. (Not, mind you, "ALWAYS", even when unjust --- which is just plain silly.) That is really all that I have been claiming.
Since all I am doing is reminding people of very well-known facts about the history of Catholic teaching --- facts that are disputed by no historians, as far as I know, I am at a loss to understand why several Catholics here seem to be at pains to disagree with me. There IS, to be sure, serious dispute about what Christians believed in the first few centuries. Some early writers, such as Lactantius and Tertullian, were clearly pacifistic, which of course entailed a disapproval of all uses of lethal force. But as far as later Christian teaching goes, there is very little dispute. Once the Empire became Christian, one found Christians serving in the military, Christian magistrates imposing the death penalty, and Church teaching with increasingly clarity justifying this. Decry if you will --- or don't. But don't blame me for simply stating the facts of what the Church taught.
As for Dulles's article, he never claimed that early Christians had a "high opinion" of Caesar. Again, you are setting up straw men.
A very important principle in conducting rational disputes is to criticize the positions people actually hold and the statements people actually make.
Quoting the catechism at Dr. Hart isn't going to do much, since he isn't a Catholic. Also, the quote isn't quite relevant to the point he's making.
Who cares? Augustine thought Christians should (reluctantly) beat their slaves; John Chrysostom thought they shouldn't (which was better); Gregory of Nyssa thought they shouldn't keep slaves a all (which was best of all). On moral matters, Augustine is always the least trustworthy. It's impossible to tell where the Manichean leaves off and the Christian begins.
@ Stephen Barr
With respect, Cardinal Dulles was never a good scholar of the early Church or the Church Fathers. That's not where his training or interests lay. And there were plenty of early Christians who believed that both capital punishment and military service were incompatible with the gospel, in some cases even after a Christian government was in place. I'm sure you know St Martin of Tours, for instance, and his story.
If you think Paul was thinking in terms of Natural Law, you really need to step back and re-read. He believed in the new age of the Kingdom, not in the elements to which we were subjected under the powers of old.
And what Dr Hart was arguing simpler than you realize; he was saying two things:
1) Most natural law reasoning "ON THIS MATTER" (capital punishment) has been unconvincing; and
2) Even if capital punishment accords with natural justice, that is not yet enough to tell us what Christians are supposed to do about it, because the ethics of the gospel go beyond natural justice.
So, he was not dismissing or diminishing natural law, he was saying that it is not enough to answer this question.
Bill Bannon,
It does sound like you are implying Merton's affair does void everything he ever said. While Augustine may have remained celibate after his conversion, I doubt that he never committed another sin. I am sure he himself would say he committed many. If we question the standards espoused by any person who personally failed to live up to them completely, we would have no standards at all. Even if Merton had become an unrepentant sinner at the end of his life, which he did not, that would not retroactively invalidate his previous writings and thought. Merton is not someone who can be dismissed with the wave of a hand, which is what you are attempting to do.
“2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.'”
It seems that according to the Catholic Church a legitimate state does indeed have the authority to have a death penalty. The Church further seems to be saying that if it is possible to allow the guilty party to redeem himself, without having to take his life in order to render him incapable of doing further harm, that should be done. Although there will always be the widows of prison guards murdered by inmates who will disagree with the proposition that, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.'”
I am well aware of the distinction between vengeance and retribution. It is not I who confuse the two, but those people who condemn the death penalty as un-Christian on the grounds that it involves "vengeance".
The implicit logic of many people who condemn the death penalty as "intrinsically un-Christian" is this: (a) The death penalty involves retribution; (b) retribution is the same as vengeance; (c) vengeance is un-Christian; and therefore (d) the death penalty is un-Christian. You point out, quite correctly, that (b) is false. that was also my point, but I was making that point by showing that (b) leads to absurd conclusions (i.e. "reductio ad absurdum"). My argument had this structure: (a) ALL punishment involves retribution. Therefore if (b) were true, ALL punishment would involve vengeance and be forbidden to Christians, which is a conclusion no one would accept.
I think my writing could be faulted on many grounds. I don't think sloppy logic is one of them. I don't claim to be much of a theologian, but I make my living doing mathematics and physics, where logical rigor is important. In any event, you simply mistook my argument. Admittedly, I stated my argument in a rather telegraphic way.
Actually, there are not two but at least four aspects of punishment according to Catholic tradition: Retribution, deterrence, reform of the offender, and rendering the criminal harmless.
You make the point that the death penalty is unlikely to serve the third purpose. But throughout history there have been many who have argued that the prospect of death is very likely to induce repentance in the criminal --- indeed, much more likely than lesser penalties. That was the point of Dr. Johnson's oft-quoted line "Depend upon it, Sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully.”
As far as passing off positions as Catholic, I wonder how you can say that the death penalty is "intrinsically" wrong when many papal documents say otherwise and no papal document --- and no papal document, even Evangelium Vitae, has ever gone that far. Indeed, Cardinal Dulles, who was regarded as rather expert on the history of Catholic teaching, says that it contradicts Catholic teaching to say that the death penalty is intrinsically wrong. How do you get around the fact that Pope Innocent III made it a condition for the reconciliation of a pacifist sect that its members had to affirm under oath that the state does have the authority to employ the death penalty? That the legitimacy of the death penalty was part of a profession of faith imposed by a pope has enormous doctrinal weight by any traditional reckoning.
Obviously the coffee was not sufficient; I simply wasn't thinking about the fact that Dr. Hart might not be Catholic! Very careless of me.
That said, I am still going to disagree with you on two points. I think that (1) Dr. Hart certainly does take a swipe at Natural Law (though that isn't the main point of the article) and (2) St. Paul does not consider Natural Law to be superseded by the "new age of the Kingdom."
With regard to (1), I think Dr. Hart's language speaks for itself.
"But, even if capital punishment is entirely in keeping with natural justice (and I am more than willing to grant that it is), that has next to no bearing whatsoever on how Christians should understand their moral obligations with regard to it. . . . Not only are the law of Christian charity and the workings of divine grace not limited to natural justice; they are often positively subversive of it. . . . [I]n trying to understand the Christian vision of the social good, natural justice can be neither the first nor the final consideration. It is important, but as yet too limited; it still belongs to the 'former things' that are passing away."
Certainly this is saying that natural law "is not enough to answer this question." To you and Dr. Hart, this may not amount to a diminishing of natural law; but to me, it _is_ a diminishing of natural law, because of the high regard in which I (and most thinking Catholics) hold natural law in the first place.
(2) I think this Catholic understanding of natural law is in agreement with the Gospels (as I attempted to suggest with my quote from Matthew) and with the letters of St. Paul. What are we to make of Christ's language about "from the beginning" (natural law on monogamy) and St. Paul's language on the law "written on the heart"? These laws are divine, certainly, but the language of "making man and woman" and "written on the heart" suggests that they are also intrinsic to our human nature. In this interpretation the "former things passing away" refers to the material world and the Old Law, not to our human nature and the Natural Law.
Christ's admonitions in the Gospel, to which you and Dr. Hart refer, are directed towards individuals. Our Christian duty to turn the other cheek when robbed or otherwise injured may indeed bind the (Christian) State as well--but Scripture does not say so explicitly, and you will need a rational argument to defend that extended application.
Andrew Lyttle says that on moral matters, St. Augustine is always the least reliable. A bold claim, given how deeply St. Augustine affected the course of Catholic theological reflection in every area including morality. I would note in reply that the early theologians who are most often cited in support of radical pacifism, e.g. Tertullian and Origen, had their own problems with "reliability". Tertullian ended up as a Montanist sectarian and was notoriously an outlier on all sorts of theological issues, from infant baptism to the perpetual virginity of Mary. Origen actually ended up being condemned (after his death) as a heretic by major church councils. He has largely been rehabilitated, but there is no question that on some issues he "pushed the envelope."
I am no expert on these things, but it is staggering to see that in defense of the anti-death-penalty position the authority of people such as Tertullian is invoked by some people at the same time as St. Augustine is dismissed as "unreliable" by other people. Wow.
Someone said that Catholic doctrine is "developing" in this area. Perhaps so. But development has limits. A proposition cannot develop into its opposite. I imagine some will jump in here to mention the Church's teaching on religious freedom. But the development there involved distinguishing different meanings of the word "rights". (See, the very careful analysis of this issue by Fr. Brian Harrison, for example.) The proposition taught with crystal clarity by the magisterium --- and taught as binding (Cf. Innocent III) --- that the death penalty is not intrinsically immoral cannot develop into the proposition that the death penalty is intrinsically immoral. Anyone who thinks it can had better go back and re-read Newman's Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.
I don't believe Merton had an "affair" with that nurse if "affair" means sexual relations. He was in love with her, no doubt. But that might have been a blessing sent by God. He called her a few times; that was it. If you can produce more real evidence I'd be interested.
If you compare Augustine's moral counsels to those of the Cappadocian fathers or John Chrysostom or other wholly uncontroversial figures from the patristic era, and then compare all of them to the actual moral teachings of the magisterium of your own church, you will see that on most matters--for all his historical importance--Augustine is actually the farthest removed from Catholic moral teachings. I'm hardly the first person to note this. Yes, he is the least trustworthy. Yes, he is unreliable. Yes, he never got wholly past his Manichean view of things. If you find such remarks astonishing, I think it's only because you have not read widely in patristic scholarship, including several generations of Catholic patristic scholarship.
"Christ's admonitions in the Gospel, to which you and Dr. Hart refer, are directed towards individuals. Our Christian duty to turn the other cheek when robbed or otherwise injured may indeed bind the (Christian) State as well--but Scripture does not say so explicitly, and you will need a rational argument to defend that extended application."
Since Hart didn't make that argument at all, I'm not sure why he has to defend it.
And, again on natural law, you yourself said that Catholics believe that natural law is true but not complete. Hart said nothing more than that himself--for Christians, one must ask how the gospel adds to or goes beyond the requirements of the law (as in the case of the adulteress, for instance).
Mr Bannon,
The claim that Merton had an affair is outrageous. There is no evidence of that. He became emotionally involved with a nurse, it was a sore trial of his resolve to remain in orders, but that is the most we know. Shame on you repeating a discredited rumor.
"I am no expert on these things, but it is staggering to see that in defense of the anti-death-penalty position the authority of people such as Tertullian is invoked by some people at the same time as St. Augustine is dismissed as "unreliable" by other people. Wow."
What is "staggering" about the idea that different people who come to the same conclusion might come to this conclusion by following different lines of reasoning? Or what is "staggering" about the idea that, in a complex moral matter, one can come to a defensible conclusion even if one's reasons for arriving at that conclusion are questionable? In fact both of these things are ordinary and to be expected in heated conversation.
Your telegraphic logic eludes me, but I must accept that you meant what you intended to mean even if you didn’t quite manage to say what you intended.
You say:
“Actually, there are not two but at least four aspects of punishment according to Catholic tradition: Retribution, deterrence, reform of the offender, and rendering the criminal harmless.”
When I said there were two aspects, you should have noticed that I included the purposes of retribution, deterrence and rendering the criminal harmless under the first aspect: protecting the community, and that I included the purpose of reformation under the second aspect: construction of order within the criminal’s soul. It is a pity that this division was missed by you, because you consequently missed my non-telegraphic logic. But let me try again.
To say that something is intrinsically the case is to say that of and within itself, measured on its own terms alone, something holds true. For example, to say that murder and stealing are intrinsically wrong is to say that, all things being equal and without extrinsic consideration, murder and stealing are wrong. But if I kill a man because it is the only way to stop him raping and killing my child, or if I steal bread because it is the only way for me to avoid starving, then it is fair to say that this murder and this theft may not be wrong even though murder and stealing are intrinsically wrong.
Now the point I made about the two aspects of punishment is that while the death penalty may satisfy the conditions of the first aspect, protecting society, it cannot reasonably be said to satisfy the second condition, serving to order the soul of the criminal. (Quoting Dr. Johnson’s remark about concentrating the mind is fatuous in this instance. One can concentrate the mind to a pitch of fear to such an extent that all other thought is excluded. To condemn and murder a man and to claim that this was to act in the interests of saving that man’s soul, is not worthy of anyone who is serious about their Christianity but only for those who are spuriously logical.)
It might well arise that circumstances are such that imposing a penalty of death is the only available option if one is to protect a community, and in this case, such a penalty may be justified even though the death penalty is intrinsically wrong by virtue of the Christian’s obligations to all men’s souls.
Look what Aquinas says:
“It is permissible to kill a criminal if this is necessary for the welfare of the whole community. However, this right belongs only to the one entrusted with the care of the whole community -- just as a doctor may cut off an infected limb, since he has been entrusted with the care of the health of the whole body.”
I put it to you, Mr. Barr, that what is intrinsic to the correct, catholic meaning of this proposition is the word necessary. If another means such as incarceration were available and viable, then the killing would not be necessary. Indeed, killing under those circumstances would be intrinsically wrong.
" The first time in later life he was touched by a woman (a nurse) he fell deeply in love with her. Out of others’ sight, they ‘loved each other to ecstasy. It was beautiful, awesomely so, to love so much and to be loved, to be able to say it all completely without fear and without observation (not that we sexually consummated it)’ (p. 243). Merton does not seem anywhere to distinguish ‘love’ from ‘romance’; and has a teenage-type view that ‘sexual outercourse’ is somewhat O.K. but ‘sexual intercourse’ is sin. He writes about his guilt – ‘though we are doing nothing radically wrong, ie. not sinning’ (p. 247). We ‘hugged each other close for hours in long kisses and saying, “Thank God this at least is real!”‘ (p. 350). Of course, this whole episode initiated a lot of soul-searching: ‘I am humbled and confused by my weakness, my vulnerability, my passion. After all these years, so little sense and so little discipline. Yet I know there was good in it somewhere, nevertheless’ (p. 370-1)."
"The Intimate Merton: His Life from His Journals"....edited by Patrick Hart and
Jonathan Montaldo. Oxford: Lion..UK paperback edition 2002
Would Oxford Press be an unreliable source...PRH??
If someone necked for hours with your fiance PRH....I think you would feel the most violence you've ever felt in life. Merton risked such violence within the other man.....had he found out.
I did not mean to say that Dr. Hart _argued_ against natural law from the Gospel's "turn the other cheek" passages. He seems to use those passages to _imply_ that "natural justice" and "natural law" are of little concern to the Christian who seeks to make moral judgments.
"There is a kind of apocalyptic indifference to the economy of nature in the New Testament, something altogether unnatural—or, let’s just say, supernatural. One can scarcely exaggerate the extravagance of its departures from the equilibrium of normal justice. For instance, not only does it place individual prohibitions on even proportional retribution, it demands that the Christian compound certain injustices with an excess of compliance—surrendering one’s coat as well as one’s cloak, or more money than is demanded, going a mile farther than one is compelled to do, meeting violent assault by proffering the other cheek, not resisting evil, forgiving one’s brother seventy times seven, and so on."
Perhaps I am reading too much into Dr. Hart's words; if so, I apologize.
Regarding your other comment, there seems to me to be an important distinction between saying that something makes an "incomplete" but important contribution towards making a judgment and saying that something "has no bearing" on making that judgment. Going beyond may mean building on, or it may mean taking apart to build anew; but the two things are not the same.
I'm wondering Stuart, just what is this "consensus of the fatherland"? I assume you meant "consensus patrum"...
I may be wrong about this (any Catholic moral theologians here please correct me if I am), but I believe you are using the term "intrinsically wrong" in a way that is non-standard in Catholic theology. As I understand it, an act is "intrinsically immoral" if it is wrong in and of itself irrespective of circumstances or consequences. These correspond to "exceptionless norms" of the natural law. Examples include adultery, fornication, perjury, and the direct and intentional killing of an innocent human being. Such things can NEVER be justified. As Pope John Paul II explained in his encyclical on moral theology, Veritatis Splendor,
"The negative precepts of the natural law are universally valid. They oblige each and every individual, always and in every circumstance. It is a matter of prohibitions which forbid a given action semper et pro semper, without exception, because the choice of this kind of behaviour is in no case compatible with the goodness of the will of the acting person, with his vocation to life with God and to communion with his neighbour. It is prohibited — to everyone and in every case — to violate these precepts."
That is what is meant, I believe, by "intrinsically immoral" in Catholic theology.
Killing without further specification is not "intrinsically immoral", because (as you correctly note) there are instances of killing that are justified, such as killing in self-defense, or in a just war. That is why in Evangelium Vitae, Pope John Paul II was careful in phrasing the following statement:
"Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral."
In contrast to intrinsically moral acts, which are always wrong no matter what the circumstances or consequences, there are acts whose morality depends on circumstances and consequences.
If you are not saying that capital punishment is "intrinsically immoral" in the sense explained above, then I have no quarrel with you.
The question of the GENERAL reliability of St. Augustine on moral questions is irrelevant in the present context, since St. Augustine's position on the death penalty does not differ substantially from the position that came to be understood as normative in the Catholic Church.
Here is St. Augustine:
"The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions, ... Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” ... for the representatives of the State's authority to put criminals to death, according to law or the rule of rational justice."
This is no different from the position of Aquinas or of the Roman Catechism, which was a touchstone of Catholic orthodoxy from the time of the Council of Trent onward. Here is Cardinal Dulles from the First Things article I mentioned above:
"The Roman Catechism, issued in 1566, three years after the end of the Council of Trent, taught that the power of life and death had been entrusted by God to civil authorities and that the use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment."
Dear bedafen,
You make an excellent point. Obviously there is no contradiction in one person holding up Tertullian as evidence of the state of theology at early times, and someone else dismissing St. Augustine as unreliable. I let my frustration with some of the remarks made here by others get the better of me, This was the verbal equivalent of my throwing up my hands.
David Hart gave us a picture of the gospel that is thrilling. And the response was to revert to the quibbles of morality. I think Mr. Hart was trying to tell us that, though natural justice is truly just, it is also true that man does not live by natural justice alone. If that was his point, then we need more than finely tuned minds to distinguish between shades of meaning attached to neo-platonism or how to map out the reliability of Thomas Merton. That’s fine if we want to dally with that basket of laundry. But when you are caught in adultery with a bunch of moral philosophers wielding grapefruit-sized stones aimed at your sweaty brow, you know that happily-ever-after is not slated for your future. Yes, death is just. Yes, it is rational.
If I’ve read Hart’s books with any comprehension, they explain that Jesus Christ so totally and radically changes the world that even justice and rationality must stand in awe of Him. Hart writes of “closed systems” of other ancient religions, ones that must somehow account for the moral disturbances by doing something, anything, to balance the equilibrium of the world. In contrast to that, Jesus enters, smashes the very scales of equilibrium and repeatedly shocks the world by His unfathomable perfection and grace. (Correct me on the details.)
Further, my point- the one that I earlier said was perhaps misunderstood- was not that Christian magistrates should go light on justice or that they should try to Christianize the penal systems in place. My thought was that Christians are distracted from a full life of faith when they engage in any kind of service in worldly governments.
Jesus was a man of sorrows. His people are men of sorrows, too, sometimes. I recommended to Mr. Hart a few weeks ago a book about the shootings at an Amish school in Pennsylvania. It was in response to his mentioning of gelassenheit in the recent article about Heidegger. The book, Forgiveness by John Ruth, is only partly about the event at the school. The second half is a look at a non-resistant people. Check it out.
I didn’t know any of those Amish. But a friend’s brother was murdered in Paraguay a few years back. The perpetrators were caught and, while they sat in jail, they related the story of how Ben Shank was “like a lamb” when they machete him in their efforts to steal his motorbike. Ben’s father, Enos, visited those men in prison and forgave them. He shared the gospel with them, the same gospel that taught him to forgive. Easy job? I’m guessing Enos still struggles to think about those men, even though his preaching brought them to repentance and faith. Christians are people of sorrow.
I could tell more stories.
I would further counsel Mr. English to avoid condemning abstractions such as “Christian Left”. I do not even know whether there be a Christian Left. We can discuss this more tomorrow, if you want. Come join us at the local crisis pregnancy center fund raiser. Abby Johnson will be speaking. $35 a plate. See you there! I’ll be in the party of 16. Just look for the women in Mennonite dresses and head coverings. If you want, I can wear a sign that says, “Christian Left”.
(Also, Joe Carter, I loved your autobiographical article about helping the poor.)
You say:
“As I understand it, an act is "intrinsically immoral" if it is wrong in and of itself irrespective of circumstances or consequences.”
There is no such thing as an act that is without circumstances or consequences. One can abstractly, theoretically, consider an act removed form its circumstances and consequences. Indeed, one can abstractly, theoretically, consider an act and associated circumstances and consequences that fall within the same conceptual ambit from circumstances and consequences that fall extrinsically to that act and associated conceptual ambit.
For example: the conceptual act of greeting a man in the street may be viewed in abstraction. As such, this act it is not intrinsically wrong.
For example: the conceptual act of greeting a man in the street by throwing a bomb at him may be viewed in abstraction. As such, it is intrinsically wrong.
For example: the conceptual act of greeting a man in the street by throwing a bomb at him because he is an evil dictator by the name of Hitler and killing him will stop a war is an abstraction. As such it is not intrinsically wrong.
Any concept, consisting of a set of act(s) and consequence(s) may be judged intrinsically, that is, within the ambit of their own terms and without reference to extrinsic consequences. Or the same concept may be judged extrinsically, that is, in relation to any other set of external consequences. In the latter case, the range of the original concept has been extended and a new concept has been formed which in turn can be abstractly viewed intrinsically.
One of your examples, fornication, when considered intrinsically, within its own abstract conceptual ambit, is a wrong perpetrated by the fornicators. Fornication between a brother and a sister because they were forced by a gang of Nazis is intrinsically not a wrong of the fornicators. Ditto perjury, another of your examples, is intrinsically wrong. However, perjury in a Nazi court that will save the lives of innocents is not intrinsically wrong.
You quote the Pope:
"Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral."
The abstraction here is direct and voluntary killing, and intrinsically it is wrong. If bombing Hiroshima entailed the direct and voluntary knowledge that innocents were to die, then was it also intrinsically wrong? Or are we dealing with a different conceptual ambit that does not include the direct and voluntary?
Incest is intrinsically wrong. Oedipus sleeping with his wife Jocasta is not intrinsically wrong. And so on.
If anything, America is remiss in its duty to mete out justice. And we betray, I think, our own lack of faith when we place what comes across to me as excessive concern (as measured by the volume of words) on the mere lives of men, when it is the eternal soul that matters. Our squeamishness, in other words, seems out of proportion to the issue at hand, important as it is, given the devastatingly abysmal state of morality in this country. (It's like the disproportionate number of fans who marched when the SF Giants won the World Series—far, far more than in the March for Life. A few dozen vicious men are exectuted each year, after unbelievably thorough due process, while a million innocents are killed in on-demand "abortions" (in a fashion as brutal as any medieval death-by-torture).
God help America.
†
I am, too.
This is one of the major points of Gelernter's essay.
So you believe we should have stayed in the Catacombs? Sorry, but I think that misses a major aspect of what the Church is supposed to be about. Did it ever occur to you that the only reason you are able to live your life of peaceful pacifism is because there are Christians who are willing to serve in worldly governments?
"I would further counsel Mr. English to avoid condemning abstractions such as “Christian Left”. I do not even know whether there be a Christian Left."
There is othing abstract about them, unfortunately. And radical pacifists are, in fact, part of that Christian Left.
So Aquinas didn't understand his own writing? It is beyond silly to claim that the Church's traditional position on the death penalty was that it could not be imposed if the level of prison security was sufficient to protect the community.
To say that certain acts are morally evil whatever their circumstances and consequences is not at all to say that those acts are without consequences or circumstances.
Forgive me for saying this so bluntly --- I can think of no tactful way of putting it --- but you are really flying blind here. The expression "intrinsically evil" already has a well-defined meanings in Catholic philosophy. One of several widespread errors in moral philosophy that led Pope John Paul II to write his very important encyclical Veritatis Splendor is called "consequentialism". Consequentialism is the idea that the morality of ALL acts depends on their consequences and the circumstances in which they are done. Consequentialism is totally contrary to traditional Catholic morality. You seem unaware of this, because you are espousing consequentialism here. You seem to be trying to build, on the spur of the moment, your own system of moral philosophy, without realizing that there is a tradition of Catholic moral thought that is many, many centuries old.
It is true that many kinds of acts can be good or bad depending on circumstances and consequences. The Church teaches, however, that there are certain acts that are ALWAYS gravely immoral --- i.e. they are immoral in all possible circumstances and whatever their consequences. Whether you like it or not, the Catholic Church teaches that fornication, adultery, perjury, blasphemy, abortion, intentional and direct killing of the innocent (to take some key examples) are always wrong no matter what. Your attempt to imagine a set of circumstances (such as Nazis coercing people to do it) under which fornication is not a morally wrong choice simply shows that you are misinformed about what the Church teaches.
It certainly is the case that circumstances can mitigate the extent to which the person performing an intrinsically wrong act is morally culpable. That is, Catholic theology distinguishes between the objective morality of an act and the degree to which guilt is "imputable" to the person who does that act. But if you think that fornication is EVER anything but objectively wrong, then you are departing from authoritative Catholic teaching.
I think this will be my last comment in this discussion. For those out there who may care enough about Catholic moral philosophy to read up on it, I suggest reading Veritatis Splendor, which is available online, and also the sections of he Catechism of the Catholic Church, also available online.
Justin: good point. In fact, policemen carried swords in many countries at least during the 19th Century. In addition to striking with the flat or the (dulled) edge, pommel-strikes and punching with the guard (like brass-knuckles) were also effective.
Justin: good point. In fact, policemen carried swords in many countries at least during the 19th Century. In addition to striking with the flat or the (dulled) edge, pommel-strikes and punching with the guard (like brass-knuckles) were also effective."
Just so we know where we stand, I'm a military historian, have been for more than thirty years, and have studied weapons and tactics of military forces from ancient times to the modern era. I know my swords, I've handled real ones and reproductions, and I have used them under realistic conditions with living history groups. You simply cannot use the gladius in the manner you describe above. For one thing, it is too short, with a blade of just 18 inches from point to hilt. For another, it's way to sharp: it is primarily a stabbing weapon (the Romans believed the way to a man's heart was through his stomach), but both edges are also honed to a razor point and can lop off a limb or a head with ease. Finally, the Romans carried and used the gladius in combination with the long, concave shield, the scutum. Weighing some 22 pounds and held one-handed in the left hand, the scutum is so large and heavy that it prevents using the gladius as a cudgel--and Romans were not trained to use the gladius in that manner. Rather, the scutum would be punched into the face of the enemy, pushing aside his shield and knocking him off balance, while the legionary, crouching down behind the scutum, would reach around it with the gladius in his right hand to stab the enemy in his right side, groin or neck. It was brutally quick and efficient, and decidedly non-lethal.
Most auxiliaries of the Augustan period carried the gladius, just like the legionaries, though a few--mainly cavalry--might have carried a longer sword called a spatha. The precessor of the medieval long sword, the spatha was intended mainly for slashing, but again, there is no evidence that auxiliary troops were ever trained to use them in this manner.
Indeed, we have from Jospehus and Philo of Alexandria several examples of crowd control as performed by troops under Pontius Pilate, and in those situations, we find that they did not use swords at all, but wooden cudgels, with which they beat the crowds about their heads and shoulders, resulting in many injuries and scores of deaths--again, hardly non-lethal, but I suppose Pilate thought he was going easy on them.
There are examples from the Roman Republic when troops armed and equipped as legionaries (in this case, senators responding to the rebellion of Saturninus during the fifth consulship of Gaius Marius), loathe to kill Roman citizens, simply closed their ranks and used their shields to push the crowd out of the Forum. A phalanx of armored men using the scutum to batter the crowd to their front would have a huge physical and psychological impact, and in this instance, the tactic worked. I doubt that the Romans would have been so lenient on a crowd of non-citizens, or that the professional army of the Principate would have thought twice about spilling even citizen blood if ordered to disperse an unruly mob.
The fact is clear: when Roman troops drew their swords, they did so with the intent of killing, not intimidating,
The fact remains, however, that when
The most direct was from Matt. 15:4-5, that those who curse their parents must be put to death. Was their any counter statements, as direct as that?
MOSCOW, Apr 29, 2001 -- (Reuters) Nobel prize winning author Alexander
Solzhenitsyn said on Sunday he favored restoring the death penalty for rebels
in the breakaway region of Chechnya, Interfax news agency reported.
"There are times when the death penalty is needed to save society and the
state," Interfax quoted Solzhenitsyn as saying. "This is exactly how the
problem stands in Russia now."
In the mid-1990s Russia vowed to scrap the death penalty, a condition for
membership of the Council of Europe. Capital punishment is still part of the
Russian criminal code, but the Constitutional Court has banned carrying out
death sentences.
Russia has waged two military campaigns to end the separatist movement in
Chechnya. The West says the wars were marked by disproportionate use of force
against civilians and massive human rights violations.
Moscow now says it controls the whole territory of Chechnya, but separatist
rebels continue to attack troops and pro-Moscow officials. Several people die
every week.
Interfax quoted Solzhenitsyn, 82, as saying Chechen guerrillas seized by
security forces "were simply laughing at the Russian courts" unable to
sentence them to death."
The problem with detached, intellectual writers on forums such as First Things is that they lack a realistic attachment to the extreme circumstances that many non-Americans are presented with around the world.
Not to be too critical of our authors, but they are in no way shape or form in the category of a Solzhenitsyn in terms of a profound intellect as applied to a harrowing ethical real life situation.
Consider the Beslan School Massacre of 2004 where 200 school children were massacred by Muslim Chechen terrorists.
When Jesus(who never condemned capital punishment) spoke out against casting the first stone against the adultress...........he was not condemning capital punishment. He was condemning the sanctimonious , legalistic mindset that could freely impose it in this situation.
If you want to opine on signifigant ethical issues.......you must subject yourself to extreme circumstances to gain the required attachment to reality so as to offer more to the discussion than a well scrubbed, comfortable coffee talk perspective.
"How can a person who is warm understand one who is freezing?"........said Solzhenitsyn.
Our writers would have more credibility with me if they went outside occasionally.
But..........praise the Lord for this website that allows us to discuss these issues.
Umm, J old boy, you really need to read a bit more intelligently than that. Yes, Jesus quotes the commandment to point out to the listeners how gravely wicked it is to abuse one's parents and what hypocrites they are for doing worse than merely cursing their parents. But Jesus often quotes the law, in its sternest form; the question is what he then does in executing its judgments. Invariably, he either goes beyond the law's requirements, or so inverts them that condemnation is averted. So an obiter dictum in which Jesus is talking about something else, and convicting certain persons of hypocrisy, hardly equals a prescription regarding civil justice. There is such a thing as context, you know.
I hope you meant that as a joke. Sort of like I hope Carter was joking when he really suggested the dietary law about blood was an everlasting commandment.
You may have noticed that in that passage Jesus is defending his disciples for breaking the strict word of the law, not insisting that they or the Pharisees and scribes should keep the letter of the law perfectly. He's mocking them for their hypocrisy, in ignoring the high moral demands of the law while insisting on the 'unimportant' hygienic instructions.
So, as you put it, What did Jesus say? Or, better, what was Jesus actually saying there?
Quite true; the eighteenth century officer's swords I described, used for intimidating fugitives would have usually been dueling swords or cavalry sabers or something similar with enough length to be handy in a slash blow. A gladius was primarily for a powerful thrust which can't be given with the flat(although it can be delivered downward at the ribcage). As far as thrusts go I do remember on a military forum debating on whether bayonets should still be issued; my point was that hand-to-hand fighting was rare today, would usually be to sudden to make fixing bayonets practical, and that it would be better to issue machetes or kukris because they have non-combat uses. The counter argument was that bayonets have a psychological effect that was needed in riot control. Bayonets are not gladii' for they are more impressive in appearance. However they are thrusting weapons.
And of course you are quite right in saying that Roman soldiers would be unlikely to be delicate anyway.
However remember I did not say you were wrong. I said you were only partly right. Big difference.
In any case it was a technical point rather then a theological one and a rather pedantic one. I thought it interesting though.
The point is that the sword was used for every imaginable form of violent coercion, not just the proportional punishment of executing a murderer. It could be used to kill a thief or a colonial agitating against the empire. So Paul wasn't using it as a symbol of virtuous governance, since that's not what the sword ever was in his day, but as a symbol of the power and wrath of the civil law, to which a Christian who breaks the law could be justly surrendered by God. Hence that passage doesn't give us any moral guide to how Christians should form laws if they run society. I think you're all arguing over something very different from what Dr. Hart was saying.
But we don't do that, do we? So what does this prove, other than that the statement either is not to be taken literally, or that the Church interpreted it in some other way?
First, I don't think that Jesus was actually commanding that in that text. Read it in context. It is a quotation from the Old Testament law introduced to make a point about the Pharisees who had accused him of violating tradition.
Second, if you are right and that is what Jesus was commanding, do you conclude that Christians are duty-bound to kill children who curse their parents? If not, why not?
"Love your enemy." Not quite as simple. But direct. And smart.
God had death penalties for the Jews for personal sins because they did not have sanctifying grace yet nor was the devil somewhat subdued yet. Once Christ comes, both of those happen and make death penalties unnecessary for personal sin though Aquinas held that symbolically those laws tell us what sins are mortal even now....then those sins resulted in death; now they result in the death of grace relative to the sinning soul.
They are relevant to this topic of present capital punishment in that they refute the odd behaviour if these last two Popes who in lesser venues and unlike their 263 predecessors.... have called the death penalty "cruel" which is absurd if God ordered them over 35 individual times in scripture.
Over a year ago in two southern states, two separate men got little girls to trust them...they then took the little girls away from safety (one girl brought her tooth brush)....they raped the little girls, strangled them, and threw them away....one in a dumpster, the other in a field. They will have ample time for repentance due to our slow system if they are given the death penalty. The good thief repented very quickly because one gospel has him reviling Christ at first with the other thief....which means he had a process going forward after that but less than a half day.
I can love my enemy and kill him, too. That's what makes life hard.
But so what? Everyone here agrees that certain people may DESERVE the death penalty. Dr Hart even said that this is in keeping with natural justice. The question is whether Christians should impose the death penalty, or whether the subversive nature of Christian charity is such that it imitates God's practice of showing UNDESERVED mercy. After all, be ye perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect... That goes beyond the questions of just deserts.
Actually, I would consider Dr Hart a profounder intellect than Solzhenitsyn--an overrated chap if there ever was one. I'm not sure why you're quoting a blood-and-soil Russian ultra-nationalist with a deep streak of anti-semitism in his nature, recommending executing rebels for daring to resist the near genocidal policies of the Putinista fascists. I will observe, however, that Solzhenitsyn has never produced a profound or cogent argument for anything, and if it weren't for the sympathy he stirred by being a resister to the communist regime, before his semi-fascist tendencies had become public knowledge, he would never have been called a genius on the basis of any of his ponderous, simpleminded, incompetently written books.
Let's break this down, so that you can follow the argument. Move your lips if you need to: Saying the state has been ordained by God to punish crime does not tell us specifically which methods of punishment are proper for Christians if they are empowered with making laws; hence Paul's words DO NOT require Christians to use capital punishment; hence we must look elsewhere in the New Testament for guidance on the matter.
If that's still not clear enough for you, get some sleep, listen to some soothing music, watch some baseball, and then get some more sleep.
If that seems nasty, blame the idiot web editor who allows abusive remarks like yours to go on to the web. First Things used to be a classy journal. Joe Carter, as both a writer and an editor, is doing his best to put an end to that sad tradition.
a) God ordains earthly governments to keep order; hence
b) Christians need to practice capital punishment.
I can't help but feel there's a premise or two missing there. Ummm, yeah, definitely something missing.
Also, I have to wonder what mistake he thinks Dr Hart made. Dr Hart clearly distinguished between what is required of Christians and what is required of the state. But that distinction is totally irrelevant to the point he's making about Christian law.
I was baffled that First Things posted Joe Carter's silly childish fundamentalist column to begin with, but maybe they know their audience.
Indeed, the "idiot web editor" even let's classy folks like you post abusive remarks. What is FT thinking!
@AL ***I was baffled that First Things posted Joe Carter's silly childish fundamentalist column to begin with, but maybe they know their audience. ***
Yes, how dare FT allow me to post an article that does not share you view that Noah was a "mythical" person.
You might note the preface to the quote “For God said:”.
Remember, in those times, many parents literally depended on their children, for their lives. And without their children to support them, it’s very probable the parents would die. No food stamps back then. So if you want to look at context, you had better look at what would happen to the parents in those days, if the children would curse (desert?) their parents. Jesus makes the penalty in no uncertain terms, in addition to pointing out the hypocrisy of some of the Pharisees.
While the civil law does not use capital punishment for deserting parents, it does not mean that capital punishment is wrong in itself. One may argue on the morality as to where the application should be, but to say capital punishment is wrong is a real stretch.
It can reasonably be argued that capital punishment (and other harsh measures) may regrettably be "necessary" to prevent further evil/harm, which we have proven we cannot do in our overly liberal prison system, where guards and prisoners are routinely harmed and mentally tortured by other prisoners, where criminals advance in the knowledge of their "trade," and where buggery, drug abuse, and communication with conspirators (or even wicked "disciples") "outside" are commonplace.
Elijah (a good friend of Jesus as far as I can tell) knew the meaning of "necessary." We Americans—who spend almost twice as much on our pets as we do on foreign aid, allow our kids to watch soft porn, hand toxic "birth control" pills to teens without telling their parents, and condone WWII strategic bombing of civilians—apparently do not.
Humans have free will. Many of the so-called elite are non-judgmental "determinists" who don't believe this: We're like robots, and do what we were preordained to do. I on the other hand agree with Gelernter: Some crimes are so evil that our failure to exact the ultimate punishment constitues a kind of acceptance.
Eric King, who started this discussion, killed two men shortly after being released from prison where he had served seven years for kidnapping a woman and brutally sexually assaulting her. His behavior was unacceptable. Of course, God may forgive him, if he was repentent (which is doubtful, since he maintained his innocence to the end). His victims did not have the chance to forgive him (or to repent of their sins before they died).
I suspect, Joe, that you really don't understand the true meaning of "myth". A lot of Evangelicals don't, and simply assume it means "something untrue" or "something which did not happen", when in fact a myth is a story that reveals a deep and fundamental truth, and may or may not be based on actual historical events.
As it happens, I don't really think there was an actual historical person named Noah, or even like Noah. I do believe there was an actual, historical flood about 6000 years ago, though it did not inundate the world and wipe out all life except for the people and animals on the ark. Lots of Near Eastern civilizations have a flood myth, because they all carried ancestral memories of the flooding of the Black Sea basin when the land bridge at the Dardanelles collapsed.
All those flood myths have a lot in common--waters rising, man puts family and herds on boat and rides out the flood, to start civilization anew when the waters recede. The story of Noah in Genesis is distinguished by how it elaborates this story. It and it alone sees the flood as punishment for the wickedness of mankind. It and it alone has God picking out one man to be the instrument by which life on earth survives. It and it alone has God making a covenant with this man to ensure that God will never again attempt to destroy his creation.
In short, the story of Noah is distinguished by the moral imagination that the ancient Hebrew authors of the story--undoubtedly one of their early creation myths passed down orally until compiled in written form--a moral imagination that shows the unique relationship of that people with their God. If you think that this is not divinely inspired because it is at least partly fictional, I really pity you, because you have a very circumscribed view of how God works through his people.
I'm convinced these last two Popes never even checked predominant Catholic countries on this issue. All murder rate by country lists differ but wiki's seems to
have substantial work behind it. Catholic countries without the death penalty are
some of the most dangerous countries in the world with three of them being
foremost in the world in cocaine trafficing. Worst in the world El Salvador at #1 as to murder rate and is 79% Catholic/ #2 is Honduras 97% Catholic/ #5 is Venezuela 96% Catholic/ #9 is Colombia 90% Catholic/ # 19 is Brazil 73% Catholic/ #20 is Dominican Republic 95% Catholic.....not one of them has the death penalty for
murder. Was either of the last two Popes aware of such data? I doubt it. They are sticking their toe in this area without referencing any research they are doing and they are not even attempting to address the larger question of how and if modern prisons are or are not penitential. They seem to have glanced at safer ethnically homogenous Euro prisons where prison murders by lifers are less likely and told themselves.....that's how prisons are....life sentences are safe. Since Popes face no accountability for research in the Catholic press, their view proceeds unchallenged even when the matter is not strictly theological.
Do people who love their enemies, really kill them? That may not only be merely hard, it may be logically, or emotionally contradictory.
Do people really kill things they love? Or do they really, just stop loving them?
So what is the correct reading of the "love your enemy" line? Would it tell us to 1) not kill our enemy; or 2) love them as we kill them? Or did it mean to suggest that 3) executing others involves a logical - or emotional - impossibility.
Jesus did not seem to clarify this. But neither did he specify which of the two possible readings is the right one.
The problem with conservatives, is that they find the ambiguous passages in the Bible, that offer two or more readings - and then conservatives only see and go with, the one of two possible readings, that they prefer. Never seeing both possiblities, at all.
in the original Hebrew, Ex. 20:13 it's:
"la thrtzch" or "not shall you murder".
Note, murder, big difference.
Andrew....you write:
"The question is whether Christians should impose the death penalty, or whether the subversive nature of Christian charity is such that it imitates God's practice of showing UNDESERVED mercy. After all, be ye perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect..."
You want the civil behaviour of Christians on this issue to replicate the undeserved mercy of God toward the sinner but that undeserved mercy of God stops....comes to a halt... in each individual at some time point as Christ Himself pointed out within the "high Christology" of John:
Jhn 15:6 "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
Romans says it this way:
Rom 9:18 " Consequently, He has mercy upon whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills."
Hebrews says the frightful in this regard also:
Hbr 10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Romans 13:4 is saying that the state replicates this other aspect of God...His wrath...which word "wrath" for Aquinas is an anthropopathism for God's just decision in a dire judgement since for Aquinas, there is no wrath in God literally since such would be a disturbance and God is unchanging and happy despite His judgements on each dire case of humans not choosing Him finally.
Therefore, we get a difference of commandments. Government should act this way, and the individual should be this way.
Oh, good grief. Most Evangelicals are quite aware of what myth means, Stuart. (We've read our C.S. Lewis.) We just disagree about the use of it in the context of the Bible. By your definition, almost everything could be a myth.
***As it happens, I don't really think there was an actual historical person named Noah, or even like Noah.***
Then I guess the genealogy in Luke which claims Jesus was a descendant of Noah is simply inaccurate, right? Perhaps the book of Luke is not historical either.
By my definition, most anything could, but most things aren't. Being able to discern the difference is the trick. As an historian, I am more aware of this than most, since what most people think of as "history" is really myth. Doesn't mean the events didn't happen, just that they may not have happened in the way most people think for the reasons most people believe--but what they believe conveys essential truths to them, which the actual events might not, simply because it's more ambiguous and complex.
Now, the problem with literal biblical exegesis is its inability to withstand the glare of historical analysis. Which brings us to your second point:
"Then I guess the genealogy in Luke which claims Jesus was a descendant of Noah is simply inaccurate, right? Perhaps the book of Luke is not historical either."
The genealogy of Jesus of Nazareth (both of them) are probably accurate only as far back as the generation or two before David. Go back much further, and we are indeed in the realm of foundational myths. Your problem, Joe, is you view history in the manner of a 20th century North American. The ancients had very different ideas about history, its purpose, how it was written and what constituted acceptable practice with regard to evidence and citations.
I would say as history, ALL the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles stand up very well against their pagan counterparts. But just as no modern work of history is "objective", neither is any ancient work of history. It's simplistic to think that history is "an account of what really happened" or "a true recounting of past events". History is, and always has been, a recounting of past events in light of present concerns. So, while the historian is concerned to provide the most accurate account of what happened, he is, consciously or unconsciously, going to interpret those events in light of things that matter to him.
In the case of the Evangelists, each one had a unique audience in mind, and each one told the story of Jesus in a way that would convey a specific message to that audience. Luke (and Matthew) were both concerned to establish that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel foretold by the Prophets, which meant establishing his Davidic bona fides, and thence back to Abraham and the Forefathers, using the time-honored tradition of family trees. These can be quite accurate: even in the 20th century, a Bedouin Arab who might not know his age or birthday could recite his ancestry going back six generations on both sides of his family. Which is why I believe that the genealogies in the Gospels are acccurate back to the beginning of historical time. Prior to that, I seriously doubt the Hebrews knew enough of their history to be that precise (which is not to say that either Genesis, Exodus or Judges is without historical foundation. I consider them to be authentic windows into the past of the Hebrew people, in the same way that the Iliad and Odyssey are windows into the Greek Bronze Age. Certainly the Armana Tablets and other archaeological discoveries prove that the stories in Genesis go back at least to the fifteenth or sixteenth centuries BC, and were not made up by post-exilic scribes, as most revisionists of a pro-Palestinian bent like to state.
The bottom line is this: Christianity is a faith founded upon truth. Scripture is the divinely inspired Word of God in print, therefore Scripture is true. But getting the truth out of Scripture is not easy, particularly if one is interested in Scripture as the history of God's relationship with his people. In such instances, a naive literality will founder upon the rocks of historical evidence, which would emphasize the importance of being able to discern the different literary genres and methods being employed--what is history (and how was history understood by the writer); what is mythology; what is poetry; what is allegory; and what is inspirational fiction.
It has always struck me that biblical literalism represents both a failure of faith and a failure of imagination: a failure of faith that God present the truth to mankind in diverse ways through varying methods; and a failure of imagination in being unable to figure out that truth can be conveyed in ways that need not strictly be factual.
Sometimes. In the same way that a man can love his dog, and still be able to shoot him when necessary. I could should my dog if it contracted rabies and was a threat to my family or other people, or to livestock. I could shoot a man to prevent him from harming my family or other people, or even animals (in some cases). To do so is in fact a mercy, both for those whom one protects from harm, and for the man whom one slays, who would otherwise have taken the burden of spilling innocent blood upon himself.
That was debunked a long time ago.
In fact, there are several articles on FT about Solzhenitsyn which are HIGHLY complimentary of him.
History rendered a verdict..........AIS was completely vindicated.
And if you think Hart is a profounder intellect than AIS.........you need to actually read AIS. Start with his Nobel Prize speech and his Harvard commencement address..."A World Split Apart".
Paige has argued for Hart being a profounder intellect than Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
This brings my issue into stark relief.
Hart may be an intelligent fellow with a witty and deft facility of language.
But he has none of the incredible wellspring of experience of a Solzhenitsyn.
Battle of Kursk frontlines WW2..........Soviet Gulag..........battle with KGB......exile to US.......beating cancer..........return to Russia after Communism fell.
A tremendous intellect focused on this experience produces something unique and profound.
And THAT is my point.
Our present "elites" in media and politics(religion as well)..........have no experience wandering in a Mosaic desert.
They have not heard Joshua's trumpet.
They have not dealt with St. Patrick's deprivations.
They lack an attachment to a profounder reality which only extreme experience can provide.
The present social order is crumblng and will soon usher in a harsh new reality like the 30's and early 40's did for two generations of Americans.
And from that will come the new perspective.........the merit of which will be earned in the authentic school of truth.
For now.......we have what we have. I'm sure Hart had wonderful SAT scores.
I'm not a person of the left. My remarks about Solzhenitsyn come from my ability to read Russian and my knowledge of his writings over the past few decades. "A World Torn Apart" makes some good points about the defects of Western modernity, but only obvious points.
You are right about his personal history. That and his beard and his ponderously serious way of expressing himself and his tragic eyes deceived many people for years that he was a deep thinker, a good writer, and a good Christian. He's actually a rather simpleminded generator of bromides (many of them anti-semitic and ultra-nationalist), a journalistic hack who writes sub-Gorsky books, and a Christian only in the sense that he sees Christ as a kind of mascot for Russian fascism.
Treating AS as prophetic figure is absurd. In 1979, we had an excuse for being fooled about him. But now? When the cat's out of the bag, and we can admit honestly how bad his books are? Come on.
I apologize for my intemperate way of expressing myself. But, for the record, my objection to your original column was that I did not think it up to the standards of FT discourse. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
If you really believe Noah was a real historical personage, then indeed we have nothing to talk about. Your view of scripture, of history, and of reality in general is so alien to mine that we clearly have no common ground.
@ Stuart Koehl,
Your points on myth and history are of course entirely correct, but I think you're directing them towards someone who will not really be able to appreciate them. I did not realize that Mr Carter was a full-bore fundamentalist till reading these exchanges. Now that I know that, I realize that this conversation never ought to have begun. Scriptural literalism of his sort was invented in the 1920's, but they think they're reading the Bible as 'God intended' when he dictated it to his secretaries way back then. Basically, they see the Bible as Christian Qur'an, and if you start from a premise like that, nothing sensible can be said.
I am indeed an untutored fundamentalist who believes, as Jesus did, that Noah was a real historical personage. As Jesus said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
But what did he know. He was just a first century Jew living in Palestine. He didn't have the book learnin' necessary to understand that Noah couldn't have actually existed.
Jesus had an excuse--either because of his voluntarily kenosis, or because, as the Troparion of the Transfiguration says, "Thou wast transfigured on the Mountain, O Christ God/Revealing to thy Disciples as much of your glory as they could contain". God in his nature is ineffable, and his ways defy human comprehension and language. Therefore, God's revelation to man at any given time and place never exceeds the ability of man to appreciate and assimilate it.
Unless, of course, you believe the Genesis creation story in purely literal terms, believe that the sun indeed rotates around the earth (else how could Joshua make it stand still?) and that the firmament is a crystal bowl. Or else, do you pick and choose, rejecting the literalism of those biblical assertions whose adherence would win you nothing but ridicule even from the modestly educated, while accepting that which is arcane enough to resist dismissal except by those who have made a deliberate effort to investigate.
For the record, the Fathers of the Church were quite willing to reject the historicity of those parts of the Bible that the science of their time demonstrated could not literally be true. That did not drive them to reject the truth of the Bible, only to find the appropriate way of reading it. Unless you are trying to tell me that the Fathers and all the authorities of the Church were wrong in their exegesis of Scripture, but that a relative handful of 20th century American Protestants, most of whom could read the Bible only in English translation were right--in which case, Andrew Lyttle is right: there is very little to discuss, which I can chalk up to Mark Noll's lament about the state of the Evangelical mind.
None of that is required to believe that Noah was a historical figure.
***Or else, do you pick and choose, rejecting the literalism of those biblical assertions whose adherence would win you nothing but ridicule even from the modestly educated, while accepting that which is arcane enough to resist dismissal except by those who have made a deliberate effort to investigate.***
I don't "pick and chose," I base how to interpret it on the literary forms. This was the standard means of Biblical interpretation before the liberal idea that we should dismiss anything that might be embarrassing (and if Jesus believed it, well, then he must have been ignorant too).
***For the record, the Fathers of the Church were quite willing to reject the historicity of those parts of the Bible that the science of their time demonstrated could not literally be true.***
We're not talking about science, we're talking about a historical figure that we referred to by Christ himself. Which Fathers of the Church agreed with you that Noah didn't actually exist? Or do you only choose to follow their view when it is convenient?
I have no idea what Jesus knew or did not know, but I do know that, as a first century Galilaean, he was probably ignorant of many things indeed. And, if I understand orthodox Christology correctly, there is no contradiction in believing that part of the condescension of God in the incarnation was to become a real limited man at a real finite point in time within a real culture and within a real circumscribed area of space.
By the way, since it is a fact of simple archaeology that there was no worldwide inundation, did God hide the traces, to test our faith? And is it true that the sky above is a glass firmament keeping out the waters above the earth, and it rains when God opens doors in the firmament? And is it true that God created all the animals and then man and woman together (Genesis 1) and then created man and then all the animals and then woman (Genesis 2)? And was this all roughly 6000 years ago? And did God tell Moses to exterminate the Amalekites (a big no to that one according to the Greek fathers) and then tell Moses to record that the Amalekites were never heard of again, only then to have to order the genocide all over again in the days of Samuel when the Amalekites were indeed heard of again?
This is ridiculous. I can't believe this is First Things. I take it you were hired after Fr Neuhaus passed away.
The thief on the cross:
But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." (Lk. 23:40-41)
Paul:
If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death." (Acts 25:11a)
At a time when the reality of the gospel threatens to fall apart into the constructions of an historical Jesus and a doctrinal Christ, one cannot stress strongly enough the status of a gospel as a symbolism engendered by a disciple’s response to the drama of the Son of God. The drama of the Unknown God who reveals his kingdom through his presence in a man, and of the man who reveals what has been delivered to him by delivering it to his fellow men, is continued by the existentially responsive disciple in the gospel drama by which he carries on the work of delivering these things from God to man.
The gospel itself is an event in the drama of revelation. The historical drama, then, is a unit through the common presence of the Unknown God in the men who respond to his “drawing” and to one another. Through God and men as the dramatis personae, it is true, the presence of the drama partakes of both human time and divine timelessness, but tearing the drama of participation asunder into the biography of a Jesus in the spatiotemporal world and eternal verities showered from beyond would make nonsense of the existential reality that was experienced and symbolized as the drama of the Son of God.
The episode on the way to Caesarea Philippi ( Matt. 16:13-20) may be considered a key to the understanding of the existential context into which the logion 11:27 must be placed. There Jesus asks the disciples who the people say the Son of man is, and receives the answer that he is variously understood as an apocalyptic of the type of John the Baptist, the prophesied Elijah, a Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets. His questioning then moves on to who the disciples think he is, and he receives the reply from Simon Peter: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (16:16). Jesus answers: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona; for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” The Matthean Jesus, thus, agrees with the Johannine (John 6:44) that nobody can recognize the movement of divine presence in the Son unless he is prepared for such recognition by the presence of the divine Father in himself.
The divine Sonship is not revealed through an information tendered by Jesus, but through a man’s response to the full presence in Jesus of the same Unknown God by whose presence he is inchoatively moved in his own existence. The Unknown God enters the drama of Peter’s recognition as the third person. In order to draw the distinction between revelation and information, as well as to avoid the derailment from one to the other, the episode closes with the charge of Jesus to the disciples “to tell no one that he was the Christ”(Matt. 16:20).
Jesus makes no indication—none at all—that he thinks Noah was a mythical figure.
***I have no idea what Jesus knew or did not know, but I do know that, as a first century Galilaean, he was probably ignorant of many things indeed.***
Wow, so our Lord was ignorant about Noah and yet you know for sure he didn't exist. Your hubris is astounding.
***And, if I understand orthodox Christology correctly, there is no contradiction in believing that part of the condescension of God in the incarnation was to become a real limited man at a real finite point in time within a real culture and within a real circumscribed area of space.***
It appears that you do not understand orthodox Christology correctly. The theological kenosis has historically not been used to claim that when Christ made pronouncement he didn't know what he was talking about. The orthodox assumption is that when Christ made a claim that people would take him at his word. His hearers at the time of his earthly ministry believed that Noah as a historical figure and would not have adopted the modernist, liberal view you have that he was talking about a mythical being.
***By the way, since it is a fact of simple archaeology that there was no worldwide inundation, did God hide the traces, to test our faith?***
I've never claimed the flood was a "worldwide inundation." I suspect that a regional flood would have been sufficient to destroy mankind.
***And is it true that the sky above is a glass firmament keeping out the waters above the earth, and it rains when God opens doors in the firmament?***
No, that is a metaphorical use of language.
***And is it true that God created all the animals and then man and woman together (Genesis 1) and then created man and then all the animals and then woman (Genesis 2)?***
Good grief. I've known atheist who have a better grasp of Biblical literature than you. Are you not familiar with the literary forms that Bible includes? Do you think that if the passages were contradictory that the writer/editor of Genesis would be so dumb not to have fixed it?
***And was this all roughly 6000 years ago?***
Um, no, I'm not an acolyte of Bishop Ussher.
***And did God tell Moses to exterminate the Amalekites (a big no to that one according to the Greek fathers) and then tell Moses to record that the Amalekites were never heard of again, only then to have to order the genocide all over again in the days of Samuel when the Amalekites were indeed heard of again?***
Again, no. The literary form was Near Eastern hyperbole.
***This is ridiculous. I can't believe this is First Things. I take it you were hired after Fr Neuhaus passed away.***
Please, sir, stop assuming that everyone agrees with your liberal view of Scripture. Your merely revealing your ignorance of First Things if you think that the majority of our writers agree with you that Jesus was an ignorant first century Jew and that Noah never existed. Some may have, no doubt, but I don't suspect it is the common view just as it is not the common view among educated conservative Christians.
“But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." (Lk. 23:40-41)”
The fact that the two were guilty as charged and were suffering the sentence due by Roman law does not mean that the sentence due was morally right.
“If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death." (Acts 25:11a)”
That, under the terms of the law, one deserves to die, it does not follow that it is morally acceptable that one should so die. And the fact that Paul does not seek to escape death does not mean that he has done, or could have done, anything to deserve death.
And the author of Genesis certainly did not mean the bit about the glass firmament metaphorically. Who are you to say he did?
Um, and many Rabbis down the centuries noted that the two creation accounts are clearly incompatible, and assumed the Second Temple scribes did as well. Why do you assume the scribes believed they were constructing an historical document. It was a collection of sacred legends and wisdom literature. But the accounts are definitely contradictory.
And, hey kid, you actually don't know the history of Christological doctrine then.
Well, let me calm down. I wouldn't bother to argue with you generally. I don't waste my time with fundamentalists as a rule. I suppose it's the shock of seeing all of this appear on the First Things website. I used to respect this journal.
You poor fellow.
No, sir, your view that Jesus was an ignorant Jew that didn't know what he was talking about is not "traditional."
***And, hey kid, you actually don't know the history of Christological doctrine then.***
Please school me then. So far, you have not shown yourself to know what you are talking about.
***I don't waste my time with fundamentalists as a rule. I suppose it's the shock of seeing all of this appear on the First Things website. I used to respect this journal. You poor fellow. ***
The insults don't bother me. I've been around the Internet long enough that trolls no longer bother me. But I'm genuinely curious where you get the idea that everyone at First Thing—other than Joe Carter the Fundamentalist—agrees with your view of scripture.
"Your merely revealing your ignorance of First Things if you think that the majority of our writers agree with you that Jesus was an ignorant first century Jew and that Noah never existed. Some may have, no doubt, but I don't suspect it is the common view just as it is not the common view among educated conservative Christians."
I demand a poll of FT's writers! I'd be distraught to discover that the journal was full of people who denied that the incarnate Christ was ignorant of any facts of history (or perhaps anything else) and who really believed there was a historical Noah, or a local flood that destroyed mankind. And I believe Mr. Carter would be surprised if he conducted such a poll.
Anyway, most "educated conservative Christians" in the world don't think like Mr Carter. Uneducated American Evangelicals who think they're educated Christians do. And no "educated" person of any kind could come up with the dumb answers Mr. Carter has been giving to his critics in these exchanges. I too am a bit shocked that this is happening at First Things.
But thanks for telling me my approach comes from liberal and modern premises. Here I was last month reading patristic commentaries on Genesis, some of them edited or written by regular contributors to First Things, and thinking I was following them. Maybe the Church Fathers were a bunch of liberal modernists.
I might point out that the Fathers, from as far back as Origen, recognized that large portions of the Old Testament could not be read literally. indeed, the Eastern Fathers in general preferred to read scripture either allegorically or typologically. A purely literal reading would have struck them as naive.
"The insults don't bother me. I've been around the Internet long enough that trolls no longer bother me. But I'm genuinely curious where you get the idea that everyone at First Thing—other than Joe Carter the Fundamentalist—agrees with your view of scripture."
Apparently they do, because your responses when challenged on exegetical grounds is actually pretty nasty--nastier than I am generally accounted to be.
It was already done (by me, among others) in the comments on Joe Carter's original essay (available in the archives).
The direction of the argument here seems to be moving away from the legitimacy of capital punishment to the exegetical arguments used to justify the practice, and in particular Mr. Carter's reference to the Noahide covenant, which I (a very strong supporter of capital punishment) found utterly unconvincing.
Joe,
A good rule of thumb is, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. To be frank, this statement is just intellectually embarrassing.
"It appears that you do not understand orthodox Christology correctly. The theological kenosis has historically not been used to claim that when Christ made pronouncement he didn't know what he was talking about. The orthodox assumption is that when Christ made a claim that people would take him at his word. His hearers at the time of his earthly ministry believed that Noah as a historical figure and would not have adopted the modernist, liberal view you have that he was talking about a mythical being. "
I also love when you try to tell us Orthodox what we believe or do.
“For the record, the Fathers of the Church were quite willing to reject the historicity of those parts of the Bible that the science of their time demonstrated could not literally be true.”
For the record, what does literally mean? I’m quite prepared to believe that the corpse placed in the tomb on Good Friday was still there, literally, all Easter Sunday, while still believing that Jesus was, literally, bodily resurrected to life on that same Easter Sunday. Real life that is.
Notice that Paige and Andrew never actually quote any of the Church Fathers or pre-20th century theologians to support their claims (to be fair, though, they have cited *anyone* that can support their claims). They just jump to insults because, I suspect, they have no idea what they are talking about. I could be wrong, of course, but the fact that they spend more time throwing out insults rather than defending their claims leaves me skeptical.
***Here I was last month reading patristic commentaries on Genesis, some of them edited or written by regular contributors to First Things, and thinking I was following them. Maybe the Church Fathers were a bunch of liberal modernists.***
Oh, so then you shouldn't have a problem showing us which early Christian writers thought that Noah didn't exist or that Jesus was ignorant about Jewish history. We'll be patiently waiting for you to show that to us. That should be very educational.
*Stuart ***I might point out that the Fathers, from as far back as Origen, recognized that large portions of the Old Testament could not be read literally.***
Please try to refrain from creating strawmen. Who has said that the entire Old Testament should be read "literally" (i.e., the way that you consider literal)? Certainly not me.
***Apparently they do, because your responses when challenged on exegetical grounds is actually pretty nasty--nastier than I am generally accounted to be.***
Can you show me where I have been "nasty?"
How so? Please explain for our edification, Stuart.
***I also love when you try to tell us Orthodox what we believe or do.***
I realize, Stuart, that you feel compelled to remark on *every single comment* on *every single article* that we post on the OTS section. But you should really slow down and *read* the comments before you post on them.
Had you taken the time do do so you might have noticed that when I used the term "orthodox" it had a small-"o". That means I'm referring to all Christians who conform to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church. If i had used a capital "O" Orthodox then I would have been referring to the tradition of Eastern Orthodox. (For the record, anytime I refer to Eastern Orthodox I refer to it as *Eastern Orthodox* to avoid any confusion.)
That every word of Scripture is factually correct in every respect--historical, biographical, geographical, chronological and material.
"’m quite prepared to believe that the corpse placed in the tomb on Good Friday was still there, literally, all Easter Sunday, while still believing that Jesus was, literally, bodily resurrected to life on that same Easter Sunday. Real life that is."
To be Christian requires one accept one very great improbability--that Jesus Christ died upon the cross, was sealed inside a new tomb, and rose bodily on the Third Day. If you can't believe that, whether Noah was a real person is irrelevant.
So, you do pick and choose. What criteria do you use?
"How so? Please explain for our edification, Stuart."
Well, do you still stand by this statement:
"I've never claimed the flood was a "worldwide inundation." I suspect that a regional flood would have been sufficient to destroy mankind."
That an interesting idea. Just how does a regional flood in the Black Sea basin or the Tigris-Euphrates valley kill off human beings who we know were living in Western Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Americas? And if there was such a radical discontinuity, s necking down of the human population to a familial grouo of a dozen or so people, do you not think this would be reflected genetically? I won't even go into the impossibility of getting all those animals into the ark and feeding them for forty days and nights.
As it happens, though, we do see genetic evidence of such a demographic catastrophe, except it happens not 7000 years ago, but 50,000 years ago, when the total human population of earth was reduced to fewer than 1500 people living in Africa--an event that is found in human genetic makeup. Now, you might want to say that the Noah story is some vague ancestral memory of that, or that it is a somewhat less vague but still ancestral memory of the Black Sea inundation of 5000 BC, but there is no evidence either of a global flood or even a regional flood that wiped out not just all human life, but all terrestrial life on earth, and certainly not within the chronological and geographical confines of Genesis.
So, that puts you in the uncomfortable and inconsistent position of either backing a very dubious hypothesis or accepting some metaphorical or mythical gloss on the Flood story while defending the historical reality of Noah as a specific individual named Noah.
Jesus, by the way, refers many times to the Book of Daniel, and assumes that it was written in the time of Nebuchadrezzer, but it is quite clear that this book was written in Hellenistic times and was not known in the early post-exilic period. jesus assumes, in his conversations with the Twelve and with larger groups, that Daniel is an historical book, but we know from Babylonian records that none of the events it recounts actually happened. Rather than being historical, Daniel is a piece of Jewish apocalyptic and must (as the Fathers did) be interpreted as such.
Similarly, Jesus references the Book of Jonah, and assumes that it tells the story of this rather minor prophet and his missionary journey to Nineveh (capital of the Assyrian Empire, as everyone who has seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail knows). The result of that missionary journey, according to the book of Jonah, is the conversion of Nineveh (and presumably Assyria itself?) to worship of Jonah's God.
There is a problem with this, of course--the Assyrians never became monotheists of any sort, but rather first conquers the Kingdom of Israel and then is destroyed in its turn by the Neo-Babylonian Empire. In the Gospels, Jesus does not appear to know any of this, which requires us to ask just how Jesus himself understood and approach Scripture, and just how much prescience he retained when the Divine Logos took flesh from a virgin.
"Had you taken the time do do so you might have noticed that when I used the term "orthodox" it had a small-"o". That means I'm referring to all Christians who conform to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church. If i had used a capital "O" Orthodox then I would have been referring to the tradition of Eastern Orthodox. (For the record, anytime I refer to Eastern Orthodox I refer to it as *Eastern Orthodox* to avoid any confusion.)"
Machts nicht, actually. What you insisted is true for ALL orthodox Christians happens not to be how Orthodox Christians approach Scripture (particularly the Old Testament), and certainly does not cover our understanding of Christ's kenosis and what it implied. Jesus' knowledge of his own path is normally clear, but there are some things that he says the Father has reserved for himself. In more worldly matters, Jesus seems to reflect the understanding of his time, no more and no less. Even if he did retain perfectly the prescience of the Divine Logos, the Church does indeed teach that God reveals no more to man at any given moment than man is able to comprehend (I gave an example of that in the Troparion of the Transfiguration, earlier). Suppose Jesus knew that Noah did not really exist, or that Jonah did not convert the Assyrians, or that Daniel, the Three Youths and others mentioned in the Book of David did not do the things they were reputed to have done, and may not have lived in Babylon at all? Do you really expect that he would sit down and patiently explain all this to his followers, or would he just use these texts for what they are--apocalyptic, didactic and inspirational religious fiction inspired by God to instruct the Jews during their tribulations under the Persians, the Greeks and latterly the Romans?
-- --"For the record, what does literally mean?"
That every word of Scripture is factually correct in every respect--historical, biographical, geographical, chronological and material.
"I’m quite prepared to believe that the corpse placed in the tomb on Good Friday was still there, literally, all Easter Sunday, while still believing that Jesus was, literally, bodily resurrected to life on that same Easter Sunday. Real life that is."
To be Christian requires one accept one very great improbability--that Jesus Christ died upon the cross, was sealed inside a new tomb, and rose bodily on the Third Day. If you can't believe that, whether Noah was a real person is irrelevant.-----
I believe that the risen body is not an animated corpse, “in every respect.” I believe that on Easter Sunday the corpse remained entombed while Jesus appeared bodily resurrected to his disciples. I believe these two facts are literally true. Yet science – historical, geographical, chronological and material - could demonstrate that these two facts could not both be literally true. If I were an Eastern Father would I not have to be “quite willing” to reject both, or at least one?
That's not what the Church teaches, of course, because the witness of Scripture says that on the Third Day the women went to the tomb, found the stone rolled away and the tomb empty. Later that day, before the Risen Christ had appeared to any of the Twelve, John and Peter went to the tomb and confirmed that it was empty. The first appearance of the Risen Christ to anyone other than Mary Magdalene was to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.
Moreover, external witness in Talmud also insists that the tomb was empty--but that Christ's disciples had come in the night and stolen the body. This is an argument for the empty tomb, since the Jews would not fabricate such a story if they could go to the tomb and say, "Look--the body is right there".
"I believe these two facts are literally true."
But, as I have just shown, they are logically incompatible and refuted by both Scripture and external witnesses. Oops!
"Yet science – historical, geographical, chronological and material - could demonstrate that these two facts could not both be literally true. "
Science cannot demonstrate either one to be true, let alone two contradictory premises at once. But that is irrelevant.
"If I were an Eastern Father would I not have to be “quite willing” to reject both, or at least one?"
The Eastern Fathers did reject one--absolutely, in fact. What you proposed sounds unlike any other heresy I have ever heard, but it would be considered a species of docetism. The Fathers wrote, "That which is not assumed cannot be redeemed", which means that Christ's incarnation was a physical reality, not an illusion, and that Christ shared the fullness of human nature with us while still retaining his divinity. Similarly, for the Resurrection of the Body to be true for us all, Christ would have to rise bodily--in the same body consigned to the tomb. The body of the Risen Christ, however, while being the same body he knew in life, has been transfigured and purified by the decent into the Abyss and the conquest of Death.
So there is no way that Christ's body could have been in the tomb while he was happily chatting away with his disciples. The Fathers knew this, and would have rejected any such suggestion out of hand.
It is precisely the logical incompatibility that science would point to to demonstrate that both facts, the presence of the corpse within the tomb and the presence of the risen body outside of the tomb, cannot be together true.
And for those who would interpret Scripture, it is their need to subordinate their understanding to the dictates of scientific logic that ties them in knots and falsifies their understanding.
When Jesus descended to hell, was he accompanied by his corpse? Or was he already risen? Was it an animated corpse that descended or a resurrected body? In other words, if during those three days, one managed to peep into the tomb, would one have already found it empty during that period when Jesus descended to hell? This is not a frivolous question, but one which your embrace of scientific logic over the supernatural mystery communicated in Scripture demands you answer. Was the process of putrefaction already in progress, as it would naturally have been, when he descended?
When Jesus suddenly appeared to his disciples who were in locked rooms, was it because his resurrected body could travel through walls? Does that mean that his resurrected body was no longer solid? If he could travel through walls and his body was no longer solid then in what way was the resurrected body the same as the pre-resurrected body, indeed pre-resurrected corpse? I mean, in what physical, scientific sense was the living natural body, the buried corpse and the resurrected body one? When Mary or the disciples at Emmaus, who had but recently seen him, did not at first recognize him, was this due to naturally explicable reasons, or were the elaborate accounts of their recognitions serving to point to something over and above mere inattentiveness?
One of the great virtues of Eastern Christianity is its willingness to accept that some things are mysteries, and not to mindlessly attempt to impose explanations on those things that have not been revealed to us.
When in doubt we can turn to the Liturgy, which is the font and touchstone of theology. And, as the Anaphora of St. Basil the Great informs us:
"After He had cleansed us with water and sanctified us with the Holy Spirit, He gave himself up as a ransom to death by which we had been held for having been sold under sin; and through the cross, He went down to Hades that He might fulfill all things in himself, and loosed the fangs of death. And He rose again the third day, preparing the way for the resurrection of all flesh from the dead because it was impossible that the Principle of Life be held by corruption, and he became the First Fruits of those who sleep, the Firstborn among the dead, so that in all things He might have the primacy."
I find your argument pointless and cynical, Mr. Voegelin. Explain to me why I should engage it seriously any further.
I wasn’t aware that you were engaging it seriously. On the one hand, you maintain a continuity of identity between a corpse and a resurrected body because scientific logic demands it, on the other you plead an adherence to supernatural mystery which will not be subordinated to scientific logic. The approach is as unaware and unserious as any fundamentalist approach.
Dr. Hart demurs: "What, then, does this mean with regard to Christian thinking on capital punishment? For myself, the only compellingly convincing answer is that Christians can have no recourse to it, ever; but I will not go so far as to state that I know that this is what Scripture positively requires—certainly not with those sonorous italics."
My own view of scriptural authority is closer to Hart's than Carter's (Scripture interpreted through Church, and all that), but really...! Hart needs to take exception to Carter's "sonorous italics," (revealing in the original formatting) and the shrieks of vituperation spring forth.
So here we have another instantiation of the difference between evangelical and church-centered exegesis--although Carter uses a very Catholic Feser to set up his own argument. It is all quite confusing. Are evangelicals and Catholics/Orthodox really ready to work together without the ghost of RJN smiling upon them?
A further quibble to Hart's own argument: he provides a typically impressive (not that he needs my praise) summary of Paul's vision of a new creation, in which "all our understandings of nature, of holy law, and of moral obligation have been shaken to their foundations."
Well, not quite. He still insists that "The eternal moral truths that the law contains (do not kill, do not commit adultery, and so forth) remain."
Why? Those truths are as much as part of Torah as are the prohibitions against eating blood pudding. If Hart can mock Carter's halakhic inconsistency (on the blood pudding business), then one can mock Hart's. Hart accuses natural law constructions of being "ad hoc" (and they most certainly are), but Hart's determination to hang on to that teeny bit of halakhic obligation is equally ad hoc. (Sorry, for a Christian, the halakhic norms of the "Ten Words" are not eternal AS HALAKHA: does Hart rest on Saturday? Once one begins to play that game, where does one stop?)
And herein lies the central problem: if Hart's grandiloquent vision of Pauline Christocentric cosmology can undercut Carter's attempt to reinstate certain moral norms, then it undercuts his own with equal certainty.
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
Eric,
That's a seriously unserious answer. First, science by its nature is incapable of proving or disproving supernatural phenomena or dealing with metaphysical issues. Science can tell us what is within the realm of physical possibility, nothing else. Historical method can provide evidence for and against the likelihood of a particular even having occurred or person having lived, but the interpretation of those facts remains as subjective as ever.
I still do not understand why you think your response proves something. It's more along the line of the late night dorm room bull sessions I heard thirty-odd years ago when I was required to take theology and philosophy courses at Georgetown. But at least those gave us the rudiments of logic.
There is no inconsistency. The command not to kill is not a Halakhic norm, and those moral precepts are affirmed by Christ as part of the eternal gospel.
@ Caroline Hart
Plato did not practice natural law theory in the very special sense the term is used today. The claim of the article is that natural law argument specifically onthis matter are unconvincing. And they are.
“Why hasn't anyone discussed the Scriptures that I cited?”.
Maybe they can’t offer a rebuttal. When we have had this subject, in our Bible discussions, these citations ( + "Not Shall You Murder" vs Kill) , seem to cause the discussion to diverge to another subject.
There are two questions.
Do the varying scriptural accounts of the Sunday morning tomb reveal a) a supernatural event, a mystery, or b) an historically attestable event conformable to scientific logic, or c) both?
Does the belief in the descent of Jesus to the dead relate to a) a supernatural event, a mystery, or b) an historically attestable event that conforms to scientific logic or c) both?
I would give answer a) to both questions; you would give answer c) to the first and answer a) to the second.
I believe in the Real Presence, but I also believe that, metaphysically, physically and chemically, a piece of bread is a piece of bread, before as well as after the event. I believe that Christ rose bodily on Easter morning, but I also believe that the entombed corpse remained entombed, and that it would be illogical to believe otherwise. I believe that Christ descended to the dead, but I also believe that a corpse remained entombed while he did so, and that it would be illogical to believe otherwise.
“Plato did not practice natural law theory in the very special sense the term is used today”
Can you give me a flavor of the sense in which Plato’s natural law theory differed from today’s special sense?
First, though the resurrection narratives of the canonical Gospels differ in detail, they all essentially recount the same event from different perspectives. This is the oldest and most crucial stratum of the Christian Tradition, the first to be committed to writing, and one that the earliest Christians were very careful to get right. Notice, for instance, that all of the narratives tend to be quite matter-of-fact, without the superfluous elaborations of the apocryphal Gospels (e.g., the walking cross of Thomas). Note also that the canonical Gospels retain much that would be considered embarrassing to the later Church, such as the prominent role of the women, and the failure of the Disciples to believe them. The Church would have dropped these if it could, but did not do so because they were too firmly lodged in the oral Tradition. All of this points to the essential authenticity of the accounts.
What do the accounts reveal? I would say that on their face they reveal an historical event: on the Sunday morning after the crucifixion, certain women went to the tomb of Jesus, found the stone rolled away, found the tomb empty. Some of the women told of an encounter with either an angel or perhaps the Risen Christ himself, who told them to inform the Disciples of what they had seen. Doing so, they were not believed, but at least two of the Disciples, Peter and John, went to the tomb and found it empty, too. Later, the Disciples recounted meetings with the Risen Christ, at various times and places. This entered into the earliest oral tradition of the Christian community, as captured by St. Paul in 1 Cor 15--a passage much older than any Gospel account, and one which Paul must have received orally as part of his catechesis. Finally, the Disciples said that Jesus was taken up into the heavens, and was not seen on earth again.
That much we can call an historical account, and we can validate much of it through different forms of historical and textual analysis. Just how to interpret the account is another matter, and someone who does not believe could (and many have) simply assumed that the body was stolen from the tomb, and that subsequent appearances were an example of mass hysterical delusion. On the other hand, reputable psychologists (many not Christians) have written that mass delusions do not work in that way. Some have said all of the post-resurrection appearances are metaphorical, but scholars who have analyzed just what first century Jews meant by "resurrection" have rejected that approach, as have those who examined the history and growth of the early Church, particularly in the face of extended persecution.
The conclusion I, as an historian, reached before my conversion was the Gospels recount the essential historical truth--that Christ did rise from the grave, in a glorified body; that he materially appeared to his followers and was bodily assumed into heaven. If I did not believe that, I could not be a Christian. So in answer to your question, I would say that the Gospel accounts of the resurrection recount an historical but supernatural event, which cannot be made to conform to scientific logic (just how do you test the hypothesis?) and which is indeed a mystery in that the event transcends human comprehension and we know only that which God has chosen to reveal to us.
"I believe in the Real Presence, but I also believe that, metaphysically, physically and chemically, a piece of bread is a piece of bread, before as well as after the event. I believe that Christ rose bodily on Easter morning, but I also believe that the entombed corpse remained entombed, and that it would be illogical to believe otherwise. I believe that Christ descended to the dead, but I also believe that a corpse remained entombed while he did so, and that it would be illogical to believe otherwise."
As an Eastern Christian, I do not speculate on how Christ makes himself sacramentally present in the consecrated Gifts. It is enough for me to know that, as Christ promised, what I receive is truly his most precious Body and his life-giving Blood, which united me to Christ and makes me a partaker of the divine nature.
Beyond that, the nature of your particular heretical beliefs is of little interest to me, other than to say that, like most heresies, they seem logical only to those who hold them.
"Was Plato an ad hoc natural law constructionist?"
Ask Dr. Hart. It was his argument. I was just agreeing with him to dispose of the issue.
@PRH
"There is no inconsistency. The command not to kill is not a Halakhic norm, and those moral precepts are affirmed by Christ as part of the eternal gospel."
Well, firstly, the command is not to *murder*. That is most certainly a *legal* norm, since it requires a legal determination of illicit killing in contradistinction to *licit* killing.
Secondly, Christ did not affirm it. He so radicalized it as to render it moot. If I am to allow another to objectify me, abuse, or attack me without defending myself, then a law against killing stands for nothing. The killer will in no case be punished, or held accountable, or judged--in which case there is no law.
That is why Hart correctly says: "all our understandings of nature, of holy law, and of moral obligation have been shaken to their foundations." The "eternal gospel" *subverts* morality.
Historically, the Christian tradition has tried to bring morality in the back door, using strategies like making the Ten Commandments foundational morality, or developing the the natural law tradition.
My point was very simple: if Dr. Hart can attack Mr. Carter's effort to restore some form of moral dogma (using his interpretation of a Paulinian Christocentric cosmology), then that very same spiritual acid works against his own meek effort to hang on to the Ten Commandments.
Paul is clear (and here I agree with Hart): obedience to Torah is no longer the ground of Christian spiritual praxis. However:
*the Ten Commandments are part of Torah.*
QED
The only thing that upsets me about seeing this on "First Things" is the stark lack of Christian charity.
It is first of all disheartening that the side (generally) defending a "turn the other cheek" approach to capital punishment is the one ridiculing ANYone first, and a Christian brother second. Mr. Carter is entitled to his opinion. You are free to express your disagreement, but you really need to do so amicably. It makes my stomach hurt that this looks like any other forum on the internet.
For the record, Mr. Carter, I disagree with you, but I nevertheless support you. I love you, your work, and your effort to grapple with God's word. I appreciate your perspectives even when I disagree.
As for everyone else. How dare you refuse to engage with a "fundamentalist" as a rule? Whose rule governs your engagements? Even where Mr. Carter is wrong in my opinion, he never stoops so low as haughty condescension.
To Paige, Stuart, and Andrew, I ask you to please- PLEASE- practice meekness and humility. I don't know if it is fear, anger, abuse, or pride that causes you to speak so caustically. I pray for you all to practice kindness, joy, and love in any exchange you participate in. Especially theological ones.
Mr. Carter, though you've effectively been clobbered into a corner with so many accusers, please forgive the people who are attacking you. Also, please consider that they do in fact seem to draw upon a biblically resonant faith in their considerations. I think their message is coherent if not their method. Prayerfully consider them. Sometimes I think we have to wrestle the angel and accept what God reveals to us. Whether it leads us to abuse or not.
I'm praying for you all, this journal, and our ability to lovingly discuss. Is it possible to set a new model for internet threads?
Ok, 'nuff rambling...
Sometimes. In the same way that a man can love his dog, and still be able to shoot him when necessary. I could should my dog if it contracted rabies and was a threat to my family or other people, or to livestock. I could shoot a man to prevent him from harming my family or other people, or even animals (in some cases). To do so is in fact a mercy, both for those whom one protects from harm, and for the man whom one slays, who would otherwise have taken the burden of spilling innocent blood upon himself. "
It's done all the time. Sometimes enemy soldiers have a higher regard for each other then they do for there respective masters.
There was one time when a Czarist officer killed a German at the beginning of WWI. He was so impressed by his courage that he took personal trouble to send his effects to the family through the red cross. Later when he was in exile, that same russian officer was sheltered by the sister of the man he had killed.
There must be a side note though that "love your enemy" doesn't just mean "love your opponent"-someone who is opposed to you because of the mere chances of life(like an enemy soldier who is as convinced that he is fighting justly as you are). It means love your enemy-someone who desires your harm personally. Soldiers don't necessarily desire more harm to their opponents then is needed to incapacitate them. Enemies do.
You say: “So in answer to your question, I would say that the Gospel accounts of the resurrection recount an historical but supernatural event, which cannot be made to conform to scientific logic (just how do you test the hypothesis?) and which is indeed a mystery in that the event transcends human comprehension and we know only that which God has chosen to reveal to us.”
Why sir, to conform to scientific logic means to be logically coherent, not to be true or untrue. And if an event can be historical then, ipso facto, it conforms to scientific logic.
When you accuse me of heterodoxy you do so on the basis that I profess what is logically incoherent within the terms of historical science, viz., that the corpse remained entombed while the risen Christ appeared to many.
When the angel asked the women “why are you seeking one who is alive here among the dead?”, he was not bearing scientific testimony relating to the animation of a corpse, but testimony to the reality of a spiritual event that had occurred in history. I accept the historicity of this spiritual reality, not because I receive historical testimony, but because I receive spiritual testimony of an historical reality.
That my father, may he rest in peace, loved me is historical. What scientific logic does this fact conform to?
“That my father, may he rest in peace, loved me is historical. What scientific logic does this fact conform to?”
If your father was a tree, then it wouldn’t. If your father was a dog, then it might. So why don’t you run along now and throw your mother a bone, Jimmy?
As for you, try to get that gnostic streak under control--it will steer you wrong every time.
Mr. Carter, I applaud your humility in this exchange. You have not returned evil for evil, and I believe that this is more valuable in the Lord's sight than any amount of theological erudition.
And as an Orthodox Christian, I believe the Fathers would be with me on that.
(Oh, by the way, I also believe that Noah was a real live person from a real live flood, that killed of all the real live men.)
Well, maybe not Cyril of Alexandria, hmm?
"(Oh, by the way, I also believe that Noah was a real live person from a real live flood, that killed of all the real live men.)"
What would St. Photios say, I wonder?
you comment would not only apply here, but on many other sites, where those who claim to be the most open minded, seem to relish in the personal, or demeaning labels they put on people who disagree with them. It would appear that they hold their beliefs so personal, that anyone who has a different opinion, is a personal attack on them.
The other comment I have on this point, is that they tend to NOT have a sense of humor
You said in an earlier post that you believe the Christ rose on Easter morning and yet you respond to someone asking you a question by referring to their mother as a dog. You've laid yourself bare, Erich.
@John E. Taylor:
“But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." (Lk. 23:40-41)”
The fact that the two were guilty as charged and were suffering the sentence due by Roman law does not mean that the sentence due was morally right.
“If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death." (Acts 25:11a)”
That, under the terms of the law, one deserves to die, it does not follow that it is morally acceptable that one should so die. And the fact that Paul does not seek to escape death does not mean that he has done, or could have done, anything to deserve death.
Eric,
If the death penalty carried out on the thieves was not 'morally right", why are the Gospels unanimous in their silence on the subject?
And if Paul's Gospel forbade executions, then why didn't he take advantage of his teaching moment and say so? He was the Apostle to the Gentiles. If non-capital punishment really is is a Gospel element, wasn't it his duty to share that truth, even it got him into trouble?
Stuart and John E., the impenetrability of your theological illiteracy makes me want to kick the dog. Really. But I should have known better. I feel all contaminated.
Heretics always feel they are misunderstood, and that everyone else is out of step.
Here then is how I think the Gospel according to Luke, according to Stuart, would come out (chapter 24 and verses 13 - 35):
-----------------------------------------------
Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.
He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
“What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”
He said to them, “Really! Didn’t some of the scriptures say that the Messiah would rise again? You know, death could not hold him, and all that?”
Cleopas said to Jesus, “Meaning no disrespect, but how slow you are, and foolish of mind to actually believe all that the prophets have spoken! The real problem is the overactive imaginations of these men and women under such stress. That's crazy talk!” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to Jesus that what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself was to be understood metaphorically.
As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. They looked at one another with relief, and wished him well. The next morning, the two continued on their way.
So the criterion of truth is the measure of in-stepedness?
Crucify him, crucify him, they cried as one.
The Karls Rahner & Barth cannot be orthodox by definition, it seems, still, what to make of the Confessor Maximos, in the First Century of Theological Texts:
The Lord’s tomb stands equally either for this world or for the heart of each faithful Christian. The linen clothes are the inner essences of sensible things together with their qualities of goodness. The napkin is the simple and homogeneous knowledge of intelligible realities, together with the vision of God, in so far as it is granted. Through these things the Logos is initially recognized, for without them any higher apprehension of what He is would be altogether beyond our capacity. Those who bury the Lord with honor will also see Him risen with glory, but He is not seen by anyone else. For He can no longer be apprehended by His enemies as He does not wear those outer coverings through which He seemed to let Himself be captured by those who sought Him, and in which He endured suffering for the salvation of all.
Thank you for reassuring me that my low faith in the reading comprehension skills of the American public are not misplaced. Your gloss on my view on the historical basis of certain biblical books managed to invert completely what I had said. Congratulations!
If you had been reading closely, you would have understood my position as follows:
1. Either Jesus, through the kenosis he accepted through his incarnation, knew no more about the origin of the biblical texts than his fellow Jews; or
2. He knew perfectly well the full history of those books, when they were written, by whom, and how much of them was factual vs. how much was intentionally or unintentionally fictional, but chose to use the books as they were generally understood by the people of his time for his own didactic and pastoral purposes, rather than muddying the waters by explaining the true state of affairs.
Your approach has the disciples more knowledgeable than the master, but, if first century Jews in general knew the origin of Daniel, Deutero-Isaiah and other books, then Jesus would have pitched his explanations to them in a way that incorporated that knowledge, rather than taking an historical literalist line which they would tend to dismiss as simplistic.
God reveals no more of himself and his mysteries than we are capable of comprehending at any given moment.
That aside, you also seem to have missed the rest of my comments, in which I pointed out that some books of the Bible are indeed historically reliable (as long as you understand that history is not, and never can be, an entirely objective retelling of events), while others, though rooted in the middle and late Bronze age Near East, are essentially mythical--but no less divinely inspired for that.
Now, in the case of Noah (who Mr. Carter is still trying to rescue from Hebrew mythology), Mr. Carter insists he is a real, historical person (i.e., there was a man named Noah, who lived at a particular time and place, who did the things ascribed to him in Genesis, right down to building the ark, filling it with his families and a complete biological sampling of terrestrial life forms, and riding out a global inundation that destroyed all life on earth).
But Mr. Carter has to confront certain inconvenient facts, such as the absence of evidence for a global inundation, lack of genetic evidence for the reduction of all humanity to the dozen or so individuals in Noah's family, and of course, getting every known species of animal life (what about all the plants, one wonders) onto the Ark and feeding them for forty days.
So he hedged, saying that a regional flood would be sufficient to kill off humanity. And when it was pointed out that there were people living all over the planet. . . crickets. He never even tried to engage the other physical and logical incongruities of the story.
All of which leads to the conclusion that Mr. Carter is willing to rationalize every element of the Flood narrative in Genesis--except the real, historical identity of Noah himself. Why? I would guess because Mr. Carter needs Noah in order to validate the Noahide Covenant (though why Noah is necessary for the Covenant to be valid escapes me). The same, I think, could be said of almost all the Patriarchs: whether they represent distinct individual or archetypes really is not so important as the meaning that the Hebrews, and later the Jews, and ultimately the Christians, attached to the stories and laws associated with them--all of which are divinely inspired.
In fact, the more I study Genesis, together with Near Eastern history and archaeology, the more convinced I am of the essential authenticity of the stories in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua. The stories are rooted in the real Bronze Age, include facts that had to have been carried down from the Bronze Age in the oral tradition, and provide a history of the origins of the Hebrew people as the Hebrews themselves saw it.
But I also recognize the limits of oral history stretching back over half a millennium. The basic outline may be correct, many of the corroborative details may be correct as well, but a lot of stuff will be lost, or compressed for dramatic effect, or reworked to fill in gaps. In this regard, the books of the Bible through Joshua are equivalent to the Iliad and the Odyssey--both of which were once believed to be literally true, then were believed to be purely fictional, but which are now understood to by truly mythological and rooted in a real historical past. There were Acheans and there were Trojans. There were great cities named Mycenae, Pylos, Tiryns and Troy, and there was a great war fought at the end of the Bronze age that saw the destruction of Troy (and the Mycenaean cities shortly thereafter). But was there a real Agamemnon, Achilles, Oddysseos, Hektor or Aneas? Highly doubtful (though we do have the names of some Bronze age Greek and Trojan rulers, including one named Kadmos, another named Eteokles, and a Trojan prince named Alexandros, so one never knows). If there was not an Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, there were men like them. If there was not a Joseph, there seems to have been an Oriental minister to an Egyptian king who was very much like Joseph.
Our faith is based on truth. History is a search for the truth, as near as we can get it. Many Christians treat history as an enemy of faith. I don't. I was born a Jew, but I was not a believer and only gradually became one over time, a transformation which I attribute to my study of history. The more I read, the more I investigated, the more I found singular events I could not explain save through the action of divine providence. When I turned my mind towards biblical history, it did not take me long to realize that the Bible is not an historical text, but contains real history, and above all contains divinely inspired truth--even in those cases where the story in the bible conflicts with the evidence of history. Those who think you have to pick one or the other--history or the Bible--don't realize that the two sustain each other, but only if you don't approach Scripture in a simplistic, literal-minded way.
Your last paragraph is beautifully written and absolutely correct. Your first paragraph demonstrates just how far you have yet to travel.
I invite you to come over to the Evangel blog and weigh in on the discussion. I find your implication that God lies to us because we are unable to understand a bit troubling. I'm also unclear on why you think we should adopt a theory that was developed in the late 1800s (Kenosis) rather than accept the teachings of the Apostles and the Church Fathers.
Thanks for your lengthy response. I do read carefully. However, I also see other subtle points in your posts that perhaps even you may have missed. My argument did not fail to address your varied points by accident; I chose an issue I thought might be closer to the root of the matter.
Specifically, I intended to highlight the role of humble faith in receiving and obeying what the Bible had to say. I believe the words of the gospels (and the rest of the Bible) in the original autographs are without error (God created the first man from the dust of the earth) and should be interpreted in their common-sense meaning unless something else is called for (He will shelter you under his wings). So, I do believe the account in Luke 24 is also without error as a historical account, including the dialogue. Jesus really did chide the two disciples, saying, "How foolish you are, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken." I was also implying that a lack of belief MAY be a barrier on your part of which you MAY be unaware, and I wanted to present that possibility in a way that would cause you to think.
You may consider me simplistic and literal-minded in my reading, but so be it. As someone has said, once you start cutting up the Bible, you never know when to stop.
I believe that Adam and Eve were real persons, the first two created, physically perfect and morally innocent, and that sin originated with them by their free choice in a garden planted by God himself. I believe they ate some real fruit from a real tree as part of that disobedience. Every Christian should believe this also, since the case for universal salvation and justification in Paul's letter to the Romans rises or falls on that single belief. I also believe that Jesus Christ, while on the earth, evidenced the greatest human intellect who has ever lived (e.g., his 12-year-old experience in the Temple, and his saying, "One greater than Solomon is here"). On occasions where it was needed, he knew what people thought before they spoke. He certainly never said, "Father, forgive me, because I'm not quite sure what I am doing." He never needed to.
So you'll know a little more about me, I hold no confidence in Deutero-Isaiah, or JEPD, or the late authorship of Daniel, etc. I find that scholars often attack the Bible because it attacks their lifestyle and their moral choices, not always because of the weakness of the text. I find a great deal of evidence for a universal flood (i.e., billions and billions of dead things perfectly preserved in sedimentary rock across the globe did not happen from a meteorite). I also find that many firm pronouncements of archaeologists (e.g., Pontius Pilate was a myth) have been embarrassingly proven wrong. I have investigated what it would take for DNA information in the simplest known cell to organize on its own, and I find that nothing short of a conscious mind could have done it--let alone produce the information map of the human body in all its layered complexity. Finally, what I have confirmed about the Bible gives me enough confidence to wait until the rest of the evidence comes in on parts I don't understand.
Thanks for commenting here; I look forward to reading more of your posts.
But excuse me. If they were created morally innocent then why did they sin? I mean, my dog is morally innocent precisely because she can’t sin, but Adam and Eve were created with that capacity and so were not morally innocent; they knew the difference between right and wrong. Do you mean that Adam and Eve were born without sin? It is an important point, because what you say the Bible says is not what the Bible says, it is what you say the Bible says. This is always the case. And it is those people who do not recognize that this is the case and who think they do not “chop” the Bible who are the greatest choppers and falsifiers of the Bible. That is why God gave us Catholic orthodoxy; to save us from the likes of you.
I think the plain reading of scripture is that the innocence of both Adam and Eve could have resulted either in confirmed righteousness or confirmed depravity. In other words, they were created without sin, but were morally untested and able to sin. Since this seems quite plain to me, I don't quite follow your "chopping" argument.
If you hold to what the Apostle Paul states, Jesus as the second Adam faced and passed the test that the first Adam (and Eve) failed. He somehow was faced with, and endured and rejected, real temptations, particularly in his 40-day trial in the wilderness. He passed the test that showed he alone is qualified to be our high priest and our sacrifice, which was offered once for all time (Heb 9:26-28).
As to your comment about Catholic orthodoxy saving you from me, I'll let you be the judge of that. I hope that we can discuss things without including personal insults.
Oh but you see, there you go again with your plain reading. There is no such thing, and until you realize this you will always be at greatest fault when it comes to misinterpreting Scripture. Jesus faced tests, but he was never tempted. To be tempted means to be already double-minded; to already be inclined to evil or to succumbing to the object of temptation. If I am on a diet, determined to lose weight, you might place a piece of cake before me to test me, but if I am single-minded, then I shall not be tempted by your so doing. If I am tempted, then I am already no longer wholly committed to my diet, but I am like a man tossed on the waves. Jesus was never tempted with respect to God’s will. Jesus never considered the possibility of going against God’s will. He was always wholly committed to it. He was tested in that commitment and suffered for it, but never wavered.
The great mystery with respect to Adam and Eve, was how they could become tempted before willfully sinning? For falling into temptation is an act that precedes the exercise of one’s will: one doesn’t will to fall into temptation, into a state of double-mindedness. Yet, by the time one has fallen into temptation, it is too late; one has already fallen away from total adherence to God and now one tries to exercise one’s will from a position of less than full adherence to God. And of course all attempts in this direction necessarily fall short and into greater falling away from God.
I did not intend to insult you. I wished to impress upon you the truth with respect to the need for orthodoxy and the Church. Scripture is the Church’s witness to Jesus Christ, the Word of God. You cannot separate your reading of Scripture from her teaching with respect to it, for it is not your witness to Jesus Christ, the Word of God, but her witness. It is very important that you understand this and that you do not set yourself up against her witness.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the nature of temptation for both Adam and Jesus, and on scriptural interpretation. Yes, we learn and submit to our spiritual leaders, but there is a plain reading of scripture, especially with Matt 4:1 and Heb 4:15, which use the same Greek word for tempt/test (NIV):
"TThen Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil."
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."
The context in both verses makes it pretty clear that Jesus' testing/temptation was a solicitation to do evil. In the first, the devil is overtly observed trying to get Jesus to sin; in the second, if it were not a solicitation to do evil, why the phrase, "yet without sin?" In the first, even the USCCB's NAB translation uses the word "tempted." I'm aware it uses the word "tested" in the second, but that choice seems an inappropriate choice, since it is immediately followed by the phrase, "yet without sin."
We could go on an on about the semantics of the words "tempted" or "innocent," but that would not be helpful, I don't think.
I do have two questions for you. First, in your understanding, how can Jesus ever be tempted in every way just as we are? If the temptations had no appeal to him, then how can he sympathize with my weaknesses? Second, when Jesus uses scripture, it seems to me he consistently brings out its plain meaning (admittedly plainer in retrospect), and criticizes the barnacles that the scribes and pharisees have placed on top of it. Don't you think that a magisterium (Catholic or other) is at risk of doing the same things that the scribes and pharisees did?
Joe,
That you would frame the argument in that manner and so misrepresent my position indicated to me that any discussion of the matter with you would be utterly pointless. Apparently, we do not occupy the same frame of reference, which is why you are Evangelical and I am Orthodox.
Try reading Maximos the Confessor in context for a change.
Given that Pilate is attested outside of the Bible by Philo of Alexandria, Flavius Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger, it seems unlikely that anyone would serious posit him as a "myth" (a word you use incorrectly as a synonym for fictitious), even before the discovery of the dedicatory stone from the Tiberium at Caesarea Maritime that not only includes his name, but also his proper title of "Praefect of Judaea".
Since you claim to believe that "the words of the gospels (and the rest of the Bible) in the original autographs are without error", how do you deal with the Gospels calling Pilate a "Procurator", a title that only fell on the governors of Judaea after it was reorganized in the late 40s--more than a decade after Jesus stood before Pilate? It's a small point, but on such small points will your argument founder.
"I find that scholars often attack the Bible because it attacks their lifestyle and their moral choices, not always because of the weakness of the text. "
This does a grave disservice to the many biblical scholars who are utterly orthodox in their faith, and whose principal interest is merely trying to get as close to the truth as is humanly possible. If there is weakness demonstrated here, it is on the part of people who so fear the truth that they simply refuse even to look for it.
I wish you would stop using the Orthodox card as a trump. The Church is a big tent, and shelters all kinds. The fact that you personally disagree with some of the things that Joe Carter says and can find a warrant for your disagreement in the Fathers does not make yours the sole Orthodox position.
For the record, I also disagree with Mr. Carter's original premise on the mandatory use of the death penalty for Christians. But this Orthodox agrees with much else that that Evangelical is saying.
Thanks for your reply. I have three comments:
1. In language, usage is king. "Myth" as a fictional story is a common and therefore acceptable usage, even in this context. Users of specialized meanings cannot stamp out common usages; they just need to mark their territory.
2. Pilate - the fact remains that some Bible scholars did consider him fictitious. I'm willing to wait for additional evidence on this inconsistency with the usages of prefect and procurator before impeaching the Biblical account. There is also the case of the fictional Hittites....
3. Weaknesses - Some Bible scholars using the historical-critical method no doubt are motivated by seeking the truth wherever it leads, at least at the start. Thus note my word "often" and not "all" in my original statement. However, scripture is alive and active, a deposit of moral and spiritual truth continually energized and made effective by the Holy Spirit. It will not hold still for examination, so to speak. The chief weakness of the historical-critical method is its functional ignorance of the fact that human encounters with scripture lead either to wisdom and insight through humility, faith and obedience; or lead to hardness of heart through pride, unbelief and disobedience. This effect cannot be suspended for the sake of academic investigation. God does not fear the truth, and neither should we (i.e., we should be willing to investigate the Bible). However, when something becomes quite clear in the text, we must obey it or suffer the spiritual (and perhaps eternally destructive) consequences. Eventually, our attitude becomes one of only two alternatives: we allow the scripture to judge us, or we set ourselves up as judges of the scripture. One leads to life, the other to death. Either way, the chosen attitude eventually permeates the individual's entire life and is not isolated to the compartment of academic inquiry.
Thanks again for your comments. I look forward to reading more of them.
The Hittites of the Bible (the people of Uriah) turn out not to be the Hittites who fought against Ramses the Great at Meggido, but rather the Neo-Hittites, a series of small Luwian successor states who filled the power vacuum after the collapse of the Empire of Hatti in the 11th century BC. They flourished until the rise of the Assyrian Empire beginning in the 9th century BC.
"However, when something becomes quite clear in the text, we must obey it or suffer the spiritual (and perhaps eternally destructive) consequences. Eventually, our attitude becomes one of only two alternatives: we allow the scripture to judge us, or we set ourselves up as judges of the scripture. One leads to life, the other to death. Either way, the chosen attitude eventually permeates the individual's entire life and is not isolated to the compartment of academic inquiry."
Historicity has never been considered a theological imperative for the authority of Scripture, until the late 19th-early 20th century reaction against positivist materialism. One epistemological error does not justify another.
“If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness." Numbers 35:30.
"On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness." Deuteronomy 17:6
"The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. " Deuteronomy 17:7
"“A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established." Deuteronomy 19:15
“‘And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Deuteronomy 5:20
"If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. " Deuteronomy 19:16-18
Now I take the two witnesses to be actual eyewitnesses, not expert witnesses who use DNA or fingerprints or ballistic tests. I have nothing against such witnesses. In fact, I believe they are very valuable. But to insure that someone isn't false convicted and put to death, Scripture seems to dictate that at least two people can testify truthfully that they saw the act and, if a witness lies and it can be proven, he is to be put to death.
I think it is rather selective to defend the death penalty from Scripture without also insisting that Biblical rules of evidence and procedure be followed. Admittedly, this would reduce significantly the number of cases for which the death penalty could be applied, but if we are going to follow the Bible, we need to follow all of it and not just selected parts that fit into a predetermined agenda.



Since I’ve already said more than I should on this topic, the prudent thing would be to say no more. But I couldn’t resist responding to the points Dr. Hart brings up. However, this comment will be my last on this topic. I want to allow Dr. Hart and others to have the last word.
Before I cede the last word, though, I’ll add just a few more:
In claiming that the covenant not to destroy the earth is unrelated to the laws given to Moses, Dr. Hart says, “Syntactically, it does not so extend.” This is a peculiar criticism. Whether or not there is a connection syntactically, there is definitely a thematic connection. After all, the covenant begins in Genesis 8:20 and extends through Genesis 9:17.
Two important promises of the covenant are found in Gen. 8:21 (“I will never again curse the ground because of man . . .Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.”). I would hate to see them stricken from God’s contract because they did not relate syntactically with what follows.
Dr. Hart then goes on to present what I suspect is an argumentum ad absurdum: “And would Carter contend, then, that the prohibition on eating meat with its blood is eternally binding as well? Has every Liverpudlian who’s ever dined on black pudding violated God’s everlasting covenant with humanity?”
Well, yes, I think they have. This prohibition was reiterated in Acts 15:19-21. And while the command is largely ignored by many Christians, the Greek Orthodox still refrain from eating meat with blood.
The passage that I find most curious, though, is Dr. Hart’s comment’s on Paul and civil authorities. Hart says, “Paul is merely saying that Christians who commit crimes may expect to suffer the wrath of God under the form of civil penalty. He certainly makes no comment on the intrinsic justice or injustice of any particular practice of the state.”
I think this is quite mistaken. Paul is saying that the civil magistrates are carrying out the “wrath of God.” Could Paul be saying that God’s wrath could be unjust? Of course not. Assuming they are actually carrying out “the wrath of God,” they are doing so justly.
Even more confusing is the idea that “baptized Christians who might come to power” might be expected to act differently. Why would Christians not carry out the wrath of God against evildoers if they were given such authority by God? If the pagan can be, as Paul said, “God's servant for your good,” why would Christians be expected to provide a lower standard of justice?
However, I do find one area of agreement with Dr. Hart. He says, that in Romans 13 “there is simply no warrant for claiming it requires Christians to approve of capital punishment.” I agree. If Genesis 9 does not provide sufficient warrant, then there is not reason to find it in Romans 13. But if Genesis 9 provides the standard for what should be done to murderers, then Romans 13 makes it clear that the civil magistrate has the authority from God to carry out his wrath on evildoers.
Our differences begin again, though, in his choosing to ignore what he considers an argumentum de silentio regarding Christ’s words in the fifth chapter of Matthew. I would normally agree that we should not construe what someone doesn’t say as support for a claim. However, we are talking about Jesus. Has their ever been a person in history that is more careful about the language he uses? If, like me, you believe this is true, then we have to explain why Jesus chose to quote Exodus 21:23-24 but modifies it to exclude the one area that cannot be covered by tort law. We can’t believe he misremembered how the passage was worded or that he made a mistake. So the decision to exclude that part must have been intentional. What reason could he have had if it weren’t to separate the things of God and the things of man?
I won’t take much issue with Dr. Hart’s theological pronouncements other than to say that I obviously disagree. But since we come from different traditions that is to be expected. I will say that the interpretation that the "mediator" Paul refers to is Moses is peculiar. I side with John Calvin who said, "Some apply this expression to Moses, as marking a comparison between Moses and Christ; but I agree rather with the ancient expositors, who apply it to Christ himself."
I will end on one last point of disagreement. I’m a bit surprised that Dr. Hart uses the woman taken in adultery since it really doesn't have any bearing on the question of whether God command’s murders to be put to death. The Pharisees didn’t have the right under Roman law to put the woman to death. They were just trying to trap Jesus into either condemning the law of Moses or showing that he disregarded the Roman law. Jesus did neither. He found a way to be merciful without abolishing the punishment given under the Law for adultery.
I’m also not quite sure what he means by saying that God overturned the verdict when Jesus was condemned by Pilate. As I recall, the sentence was carried out: Jesus was crucified and died. The fact that Jesus came back from death doesn’t change the fact that the verdict was carried out precisely as Pilate intended.
Despite all these differences, I appreciate Dr. Hart taking the time to write such a lengthy rebuttal to my original article. I also appreciate the comments by everyone on my own article. And, as I promised at the beginning of the interminably long comment, I’ll bow out and let others have the last word.