An Evangelical Looks at Pope Benedict XVI
February 11, 2013
Russell D. Moore
With Pope Benedict XVI’s shocking resignation this morning, Evangelical Christians might be tempted to see this the way a college football fan might view the departure of his rival team’s head coach. But the global stakes are much, much higher. As Pope Benedict steps down, I think it’s important for us to recognize the legacy of the last two bishops of Rome that we ought to honor and conserve: an emphasis on human dignity.
As a Baptist Christian, I disagree with Rome on many things, of course, and some of those things relate to the nature of the Petrine ministry, the relationship of the Bishop of Rome to the rest of the church, the merging of civil and ecclesial power, and so on. It might surprise previous generations of Protestants that one of the primary emphases of the Vatican in the last generation has been on the dignity and liberty of the human person.
When the world was threatened by Soviet totalitarianism, Benedict’s predecessor, John Paul II, communicated a vision of human flourishing and freedom that sparked resistance movements in his native Poland, throughout occupied Eastern Europe, and to the rest of the world. Benedict, then a cardinal, worked internally to root out Marxist mash-ups with Catholicism in the so-called “liberation theology” movements of Latin America and elsewhere.
Since assuming the papacy, Benedict has called for a counter-witness to the bloody persecution of Christians by Islamic authoritarian regimes in Africa and the Middle East, to the church-outlawing police states of China and North Korea, and to the soul-decaying secularism of Western Europe and, increasingly, the United States of America.
Benedict has countered the sexual revolution with an Augustinian view of the meaning of human personhood. A human person, he has reminded the world, is not a machine. We are not merely collections of nerve endings that spark with sensation when rubbed together. Instead a human person is directed toward a one-flesh union, which is personal and spiritual. Destroying the ecology of marriage and family isn’t simply about tearing down old “moralities,” he has reminded us, but about a revolt against the web of nature in which human beings thrive.
And Benedict has stood against the nihilism that defines human worth in terms of power and usefulness. He has constantly spoken for those whose lives are seen as a burden to society: the baby with Down syndrome, the woman with advanced Alzheimer’s, the child starving in the desert, the prisoner being tortured. These lives aren’t things, he has said, but images of God, and for them we will give an account. When society wants to dehumanize with language: “embryo,” “fetus,” “anchor baby,” “illegal alien,” “collateral damage,” and so on, Benedict has stood firmly to point to the human faces the world is seeking to wipe away.
As Protestant Christians, we will disagree with this pope, and with the next one, on all sorts of things. Here we stand, we can do no other; God help us. But let’s pray the next pope, like this one, will remember what it means to be human, and will remind the rest of us when we forget.
Russell D. Moore is Dean of the School of Theology and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he also serves as Professor of Christian Theology and Ethics.
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Comments:
2.11.2013 | 1:26pm
John Hunt says:
Pensive, patient, prayerful and pragmatic would be one way to describe Pope Benedict XVI. Popes come and go. This pope has tweaked the papacy in many ways and his resignation is a final gesture of the same stature. A pope who resigns strips, hopefully once and for all, the notion of the pope as someone who in a merely terrestrial sense is "seated at the right hand of God." The papacy can perhaps in the minds of a billion Catholics and all others become truly a ministry rather than a kind of monarchy.
2.11.2013 | 1:52pm
geraldine Harkin says:
The Pope is the vicar of Christ. What he holds bound is held bound, What he loose is loosed. Every Pope can be traced back to Peter. I was thrilled when he was chosen and I am sad to see him resign. I am sure he has done so only after much prayer. God Bless You Pope BenedictXVL
2.11.2013 | 1:59pm
William Murchison says:
From the other side of the Tiber, may an Episcopalian salute this great man of God, Benedict XVI, a source throughout his papacy of inspiration and, may I add, exhilaration merely from seeing the Lord's work performed well and truly. I don't know that I find his resignation "shocking," as Mr. Moore puts it. Age does take its toll, and the Lord will duly fill the chair of Peter with the man of His choice.
As for this one, aren't you of the Roman fold glad you had him as long as you did -- this one for whom I pray daily (with some internal contradiction: "Benedict, Supreme Pontiff and Bishop of Rome."
As for this one, aren't you of the Roman fold glad you had him as long as you did -- this one for whom I pray daily (with some internal contradiction: "Benedict, Supreme Pontiff and Bishop of Rome."
2.11.2013 | 3:51pm
Kathy Hogan says:
I don't find the Pope's resignation shocking, either. To have taken this on in the first place at the age of 78 is something that would daunt most people. By stepping down this should ensure a smooth transition for his successor and for the rest of us. I loved reading about the admiration of people from other faiths for Pope Benedict XVI.
2.11.2013 | 3:53pm
Terry Rayburn says:
Mister Moore,
In pointing out that as a Baptist Christian you disagree with the Pope on many things, you neglected the most important one: the Gospel -- the only thing that is the power of salvation to those who believe.
The true Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of grace alone, not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9.
The Pope's "gospel" is one of "grace" plus works, which the Word of God says is therefore not grace at all, and is not the power of salvation.
Until a Pope comes along who rejects RCC soteriology and preaches the real Gospel, he cannot be considered a good spiritual leader. But it would take a literal miracle for the Cardinals to even consider such a man.
In pointing out that as a Baptist Christian you disagree with the Pope on many things, you neglected the most important one: the Gospel -- the only thing that is the power of salvation to those who believe.
The true Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of grace alone, not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9.
The Pope's "gospel" is one of "grace" plus works, which the Word of God says is therefore not grace at all, and is not the power of salvation.
Until a Pope comes along who rejects RCC soteriology and preaches the real Gospel, he cannot be considered a good spiritual leader. But it would take a literal miracle for the Cardinals to even consider such a man.
2.11.2013 | 3:55pm
Cynthia Schrage says:
Thank you for making these thoughtful statements. They do a world of good in an area too often fraught with tension. As a Catholic, I fear I have to spend what I believe is far too much time defending myself from a great many people who believe that I am, at the very least, utterly misguided.
Thank you again. I hope you will join in our prayers for Benedict's successor.
Thank you again. I hope you will join in our prayers for Benedict's successor.
2.11.2013 | 5:07pm
Pearline Smith says:
@Terry Rayburn: There is only the one Gospel of Christ, which I believe Pope Benedict has faithfully preached. All who are saved, ever was, or ever will be are saved by the work of Christ through faith, with God deciding how he will bring each one to meet Christ. Our works of love testify to the authenticity of our faith, as Jesus himself tells us, although that speaks more to hearts turned towards God rather than "perfect" works. We Christians have more that unite us than divide us, above all the love of Christ! Grace and peace in his precious name.
2.11.2013 | 5:45pm
Andy says:
Terry,
We Catholics believe in salvation by grace, not as you say, "grace plus works".
However, grace must not be resisted - either by remaining in unbelief or by committing serious sin after justification. I encourage you to read carefully 1 Corinthians 6, Ephesians 5, and Galatians 5... or listen to Matt Maher's "Your Grace is Enough". I hear that one played in a local non-denominational church and
just have to smile!
We Catholics believe in salvation by grace, not as you say, "grace plus works".
However, grace must not be resisted - either by remaining in unbelief or by committing serious sin after justification. I encourage you to read carefully 1 Corinthians 6, Ephesians 5, and Galatians 5... or listen to Matt Maher's "Your Grace is Enough". I hear that one played in a local non-denominational church and
just have to smile!
2.11.2013 | 5:46pm
H. Mannle says:
If only another one cut from the cloth of John XXIII would be chosen! One that would listen to those thoughtful priests, sisters, bishops honorably following their vocation and dealing with tough issues like over-population, aids, clerical sex abuse,the limited role of women etc. -- instead of Vatican bureaucrats more interested in preserving their power and the status quo!
2.11.2013 | 6:18pm
Fiammetta Rubin says:
It is wonderful to be able to share with this moment of openness at the highest level. As a Jew I may not endorse the belief systems of the Pope . As a teacher endorsing respect for the whole planet and not just human life, I cannot endorse practices and dogmas leading to uncontrolled population growth affecting depletion of clean air water and food and slow destruction of the Earth. I consider the proliferation of Homus Erectus as non ethical when it becomes only self involved , disregarding the welfare of much greater systems of life and Nature which ultimately support it.- Just look at the Krebs Cycle. Think of the Forests in South America. What is their value when compared to the lives of humans living right now? - What would remain of their legacy if they are destroyed?-- Spirituality needs to be expanded to all living systems . Jesus would have no problem with this..." look at the lillies in the fields.... and not just at homus erectus.
The Pope is good, he is compassionate, he is erudite. Yet his compassion is limited
Hopefully we shall have a future leader for the Roman Church who shall also be "Catholic" in the larger meaning of the word". Tante Grazie Fiammetta Rubin
The Pope is good, he is compassionate, he is erudite. Yet his compassion is limited
Hopefully we shall have a future leader for the Roman Church who shall also be "Catholic" in the larger meaning of the word". Tante Grazie Fiammetta Rubin
2.11.2013 | 6:20pm
Phillip Turnbull says:
His resignation is a monumental validation of his Petrine Ministry - pastoral service humbly offered. It not only puts the seal of truth and integrity on his papacy, but on his entire priesthood and in particular, on his writings.
Whenever anyone speaking to me criticised this man - and plenty of 'liberal tolerant' catholics have, not to mention Anglicans and Protestants, I always asked, "Have you read and studied what he wrote? Have you heard what he said?" Invariably the answer was, "No."
Any critics here - ask yourself those questions before you give us your opinion.
Whenever anyone speaking to me criticised this man - and plenty of 'liberal tolerant' catholics have, not to mention Anglicans and Protestants, I always asked, "Have you read and studied what he wrote? Have you heard what he said?" Invariably the answer was, "No."
Any critics here - ask yourself those questions before you give us your opinion.
2.11.2013 | 6:22pm
francis Goodfellow says:
The devil has attacked him but like Job, the Holy Father has not spoken anything against God.
Did not the devil fail in Job's case? Did our Lord Jesus Christ not say that His Church would outlive all the antics of the evil one - the devil?
Our God will give us a Pope that is truly Catholic like Pope Benedict XVI.
God is not asleep... Bless you Holy Father.
Did not the devil fail in Job's case? Did our Lord Jesus Christ not say that His Church would outlive all the antics of the evil one - the devil?
Our God will give us a Pope that is truly Catholic like Pope Benedict XVI.
God is not asleep... Bless you Holy Father.
2.11.2013 | 6:23pm
Kathy says:
Dear Russell,
Thank you for a kind and thoughtful piece. I, a Catholic, am also grateful for Pope Benedict's unwavering commitment to human life from the moment of conception until natural death.
Blessings,
Kathy
Thank you for a kind and thoughtful piece. I, a Catholic, am also grateful for Pope Benedict's unwavering commitment to human life from the moment of conception until natural death.
Blessings,
Kathy
2.11.2013 | 6:37pm
Philis McDuffee says:
It accomplishes nothing to attack Pope Benedict and this comes from a Protestant who is glad that he drew attention to humankind, spoke for those who have no voice, and stood up for the Word of God, and showed no fear in doing so. He is not perfect since no one but Jesus Christ can be, but he practiced what he preached, according to scripture. I understand confusion with works and grace but scripture is clear in James 2:14-25, when it says "Faith by itelf, if it is not followed by action, is dead. Just as works without faith will not save you, but only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. May we all be as brave to stand up for the cause of Christ. I commend him for his heart for God and pray the next leader will be just as solid in his relationship with Jesus. I pray his remaining days will be filled with joy and peace knowing he will soon hear "Well done, good and faithful servant." The question is "What will we do to hear the same?" ?" I do not believe denominations will be a deciding factor in this but as scripture teaches, “He sees and knows our heart” and could care less what church we claim to be a part of, but what we accomplish as we seek to grow to be more like Him and worship Him, as we were created to do.
2.11.2013 | 7:37pm
Hall Decker says:
Benedict confirmed the Church is increasingly, if that's possible, unresponsive and irrelevant. He is the leader of a collection of hide-bound old bachelors.
Let's pray the new pope listens.
Why should the Church change to address the concerns of those of us in the pew?
For one thing, it changed when Benedict decided the English mass ought to be different.
It wouldn't hurt for Church leaders to demonstrate they're at least aware of the phrase 'humility.' Not just claim, but actually be.
Let's pray the new pope listens.
Why should the Church change to address the concerns of those of us in the pew?
For one thing, it changed when Benedict decided the English mass ought to be different.
It wouldn't hurt for Church leaders to demonstrate they're at least aware of the phrase 'humility.' Not just claim, but actually be.
2.11.2013 | 9:34pm
Martin Dugga says:
God love Pope Benedict! In resigning he humbly said he did so after examining his conscience. How wholesome!
2.11.2013 | 10:13pm
yan says:
I for one am not ready to accept this abdication! We need this man. We need him to be Pope. His like is not in this world. There must be something that can be done to change his mind!
What is really going on here, in my opinion, is a case of 'The Year Without a Santa Claus.' This Pope needs our love and encouragement. He needs our support. He needs to know that we want to be led by him!
Bishops! Don't stand around dazed. Rally the faithful! Get them to express their gratitude!
Not every pontificate has to be JPII. He can slow down. He can delegate. He can travel less. He can meditate more, write more, and pray more, and still be Pope. He can let someone else do his twittering. This is wrong!
What is really going on here, in my opinion, is a case of 'The Year Without a Santa Claus.' This Pope needs our love and encouragement. He needs our support. He needs to know that we want to be led by him!
Bishops! Don't stand around dazed. Rally the faithful! Get them to express their gratitude!
Not every pontificate has to be JPII. He can slow down. He can delegate. He can travel less. He can meditate more, write more, and pray more, and still be Pope. He can let someone else do his twittering. This is wrong!
2.12.2013 | 12:28am
Chesterton Fan says:
As a Protestant, I greatly appreciate the Catholic intellectual tradition. And my Protestantism is of the type that understands itself not as leaving the Catholic faith to go off and start something else, but as being part of a reform movement within a Church that needed and always needs reform. Much of Protestantism these days is more scandalous than what Luther faced. As for faith and works, I find many modern day Protestants inclined to think that "being good" will save them rather than Christ's atonement for sin, while what I gleaned from godly Catholics i have met and read is that works are necessary for salvation only in the sense of validating the authenticity of faith. The Reformed tradition says that the faith that justifies is never alone. Unlike the 16th century, I am finding the Catholic Church much more Augustinian than mainline Protestantism. Excepting some of my reservations about certain Catholic dogmas, if my actual experience with a Catholic congregation matched my experience in reading Catholic writers (including many here on First Things), crossing the Tiber might be more seriously considered.
2.12.2013 | 1:38am
Don Roberto says:
Humble, brave, and smart. I think this sets a good precedent . The Church is surrounded by active enemies (servants, though they probably know it not, of *the* Enemy, e.g., the pseudo atheists and neo-pagans in charge of most governments, businesses, schools, and media outlets), some explicit and some subtle in their attacks. We need active leaders, and as our very wise Pope says, if the physical, mental or spiritual energies are not at the level required to do the most important job in the world, resignation is appropriate. God grant us more Vicars such as he!
2.12.2013 | 2:05am
Isenau says:
Hopefully the next Pope will be vigorous enough to purge the Church of the pernicious heresy of Modernism especially in its most virulent form namely- Americanism. I suspect there to be many a wailing gnashing of teeth, particularly from our separate "brethren" but it really needs to be done.
It also wouldn’t hurt to do away with the heavily Protestantized liturgy.
It also wouldn’t hurt to do away with the heavily Protestantized liturgy.
2.12.2013 | 3:35am
Theo K says:
Terry Rayburn,
Thank you for keeping that which is of primary importance first.
Thank you for realising that the RCC preaches a false gospel that saves no-one.
I thank the Lord because has reveiled to you that justification is by grace *alone*, through faith *alone*, in Christ *alone*, according to scripture *alone*, to the glory of God *alone*.
It saddens me beyond words to see professing evangelicals being unable to discern the true Gospel from the 'galatian' heresy that RCC teaches.
May the Lord have mercy upon us and raise men that will fearlessly proclaim the Gospel without compromise.
Thank you for keeping that which is of primary importance first.
Thank you for realising that the RCC preaches a false gospel that saves no-one.
I thank the Lord because has reveiled to you that justification is by grace *alone*, through faith *alone*, in Christ *alone*, according to scripture *alone*, to the glory of God *alone*.
It saddens me beyond words to see professing evangelicals being unable to discern the true Gospel from the 'galatian' heresy that RCC teaches.
May the Lord have mercy upon us and raise men that will fearlessly proclaim the Gospel without compromise.
2.12.2013 | 4:16am
Ian says:
God bless you Pope Benedict XVI. As a former Protestant who came forward at a Billy Graham rally at university in 1980, I came into full communion with the church last Easter, helped in part by the writings of Benedict. The church seems much larger on the inside than outside and I am beginning to understand the riches that the church has which are available in writings and tradition for all the faithful. I commend to all of you (and especially to those not (yet) of the Roman Catholic faith) his trilogy on the Jesus of Nazareth, written during his papacy. He has insights that even those well versed in the New Testament will appreciate.
Last September I was privileged to attend (with 6000 others) one of the weekly audiences. The world has been blessed to have such a man as Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger as supreme pontiff. Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the cardinals in the election of his successor.
Last September I was privileged to attend (with 6000 others) one of the weekly audiences. The world has been blessed to have such a man as Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger as supreme pontiff. Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the cardinals in the election of his successor.
2.12.2013 | 5:24pm
Arkanabar says:
To remind you, Theo: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Trust me, that's not Shakespeare. If you look, you will find it.
2.12.2013 | 7:44pm
Dorothy Palmer says:
Pope Ratzinger's resignation is appalling. As one of the Priests at the parish to which I belong asked, what is the difference between resigning the papacy and resigning the Priesthood? If Ratzinger believes his conscience is clear before the Divine, a well-formed conscience would suggest that his instruction to have one has not been duly followed in his case. What he has done is inforgivable.
2.13.2013 | 2:53am
Theo K says:
Arkanabar,
You make James contradict Paul. You misread James.
And in doing so you fall into the galatian heresy camp I am afraid...
What is this you ask? The false teaching that a person must add anything (anything at all) to the work of Christ on the cross in order to be justified before God. In fact Paul places an anathema to anyone who would dare nullify the grace of God in Christ by trying to add his works to the already perfect righteousness of Christ.
This is the beauty of the true Gospel of Grace: that what God demands, namely perfect obedience (righteousness), He gives it freely, by His grace, as a gift, to all those sinners that solely by faith are united with His Son in His death and resurrection (and thus by this saving faith, they receive Jesus, and by receiving Jesus, solely by faith, they are clothed with His righteousness). Amazing Grace, how sweet thy sound...
"We are justified by faith alone. And the faith that justifies is never alone."
You make James contradict Paul. You misread James.
And in doing so you fall into the galatian heresy camp I am afraid...
What is this you ask? The false teaching that a person must add anything (anything at all) to the work of Christ on the cross in order to be justified before God. In fact Paul places an anathema to anyone who would dare nullify the grace of God in Christ by trying to add his works to the already perfect righteousness of Christ.
This is the beauty of the true Gospel of Grace: that what God demands, namely perfect obedience (righteousness), He gives it freely, by His grace, as a gift, to all those sinners that solely by faith are united with His Son in His death and resurrection (and thus by this saving faith, they receive Jesus, and by receiving Jesus, solely by faith, they are clothed with His righteousness). Amazing Grace, how sweet thy sound...
"We are justified by faith alone. And the faith that justifies is never alone."
2.13.2013 | 7:06am
Simon says:
I really appreciate this article. I could agree with a lot of things this pope stood for, even though I know a few Catholics didn't really like him
But Pearline, I'm pretty sure that's not the gospel he preached
Andy, none of those passages talk about works that merit salvation, even works prompted by grace. No matter how its worded, the catholic doctrine always ends up being grace plus what we have to do. I think we just need to agree to disagree
Arkanabar, absolutely! True faith will never be alone. It will always produce works otherwise it is only a mental consent that even demons have. We are only declared righteous by other people when they see our works, and not when we claim to have faith but it remains alone and doesn't produce works
But Pearline, I'm pretty sure that's not the gospel he preached
Andy, none of those passages talk about works that merit salvation, even works prompted by grace. No matter how its worded, the catholic doctrine always ends up being grace plus what we have to do. I think we just need to agree to disagree
Arkanabar, absolutely! True faith will never be alone. It will always produce works otherwise it is only a mental consent that even demons have. We are only declared righteous by other people when they see our works, and not when we claim to have faith but it remains alone and doesn't produce works
2.13.2013 | 8:34am
Emma says:
I think that they shouldn't elect him in the first place. But i don't think that every "pope" is a false prophet that teaches a false gospel of works that leads to hell, since that is what catholicism is. So these "evangelical leaders" are not my "leaders", they don't speak for me, and I reject everything they are saying in this matter.
2.13.2013 | 12:06pm
Artaban7 says:
"You are my friends if you do what I command." --Jesus, Gospel of John 15:14
"34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’" --Jesus, Gospel of Matthew 25:34-37
To Emma and the others who are "faith aloners": Is Luther greater than Christ? Is Paul greater than Christ?! Does not Jesus tell us to ACT on our faith?
How then can you condemn to Hell those attempting to do so? Just because I act on my faith in Christ and try to fulfill the commands of Jesus (The greatest commandments He affirmed also can't be done unless one works), I'm going to Hell? Catholics know and are taught that if we had the works without the saving act of Christ, we couldn't escape Hell, and we are only saved by Christ. But the gratitude that comes from Christ's act DEMANDS good works.
When non-Christians look at the condemnation similar to what has been directed by some towards Catholics here, do you think it makes them "know we are Christians by our love", or turn them from Christ?
I realize I'm probably wasting my ink, but there is much of value that has come from Protestant brethren, and fraternal correction is also a New Testament Command.
Always sorry to see that "haters gonna hate"....
Should you not rather obey Christ, if you think of us as enemies (though we do not regard you as such) and pray for us?
"34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’" --Jesus, Gospel of Matthew 25:34-37
To Emma and the others who are "faith aloners": Is Luther greater than Christ? Is Paul greater than Christ?! Does not Jesus tell us to ACT on our faith?
How then can you condemn to Hell those attempting to do so? Just because I act on my faith in Christ and try to fulfill the commands of Jesus (The greatest commandments He affirmed also can't be done unless one works), I'm going to Hell? Catholics know and are taught that if we had the works without the saving act of Christ, we couldn't escape Hell, and we are only saved by Christ. But the gratitude that comes from Christ's act DEMANDS good works.
When non-Christians look at the condemnation similar to what has been directed by some towards Catholics here, do you think it makes them "know we are Christians by our love", or turn them from Christ?
I realize I'm probably wasting my ink, but there is much of value that has come from Protestant brethren, and fraternal correction is also a New Testament Command.
Always sorry to see that "haters gonna hate"....
Should you not rather obey Christ, if you think of us as enemies (though we do not regard you as such) and pray for us?
2.13.2013 | 4:21pm
Theo K says:
@Artaban7 (part 1 / 2)
Friend, the question has never been about whether Christians should obey God or not.
Paul is very clear (and please don't make him contradict Jesus, the Bible isn't a collection of random books).
See Eph 2:1-10 --> We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, because of His cross alone. And you know what happens next? Because we have been regenerated, because we have been united with the Lord Jesus solely by faith, because we have been made new creations in Christ Jesus, we now do good works, which God prepared beforehand for us(Eph 2:10).
The reformers also were very clear: "we are justified by faith alone, and the faith that justifies is never alone". (it always leads to good works)
Your problem is not that you want to obey. All genuine Christians, by the grace of Christ, desire to obey God, albeit imperfectly. Your problem is that you trust, even partly, upon your good works to be justified. You obey in order to be justified (or keep your justification). And this is a damning mistake. Because God demands absolutely perfect, 100%, continuous obedience (righteousness). Nothing less will ever do. Friend, do you have such a righteousness to present before God? Your problem is that you try to add your imperfect works to the absolutely perfect righteousness of Christ. And this will not do. You are going to either be justified before God by trusting in Christ alone, by trusting in His righteousness which He gives as a free gift to all those sinners that will be united with Him solely by saving faith, or you will be lost.
Friend, the question has never been about whether Christians should obey God or not.
Paul is very clear (and please don't make him contradict Jesus, the Bible isn't a collection of random books).
See Eph 2:1-10 --> We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, because of His cross alone. And you know what happens next? Because we have been regenerated, because we have been united with the Lord Jesus solely by faith, because we have been made new creations in Christ Jesus, we now do good works, which God prepared beforehand for us(Eph 2:10).
The reformers also were very clear: "we are justified by faith alone, and the faith that justifies is never alone". (it always leads to good works)
Your problem is not that you want to obey. All genuine Christians, by the grace of Christ, desire to obey God, albeit imperfectly. Your problem is that you trust, even partly, upon your good works to be justified. You obey in order to be justified (or keep your justification). And this is a damning mistake. Because God demands absolutely perfect, 100%, continuous obedience (righteousness). Nothing less will ever do. Friend, do you have such a righteousness to present before God? Your problem is that you try to add your imperfect works to the absolutely perfect righteousness of Christ. And this will not do. You are going to either be justified before God by trusting in Christ alone, by trusting in His righteousness which He gives as a free gift to all those sinners that will be united with Him solely by saving faith, or you will be lost.
2.13.2013 | 4:23pm
Theo K says:
@Artaban7 ( part 2 / 2 )
Genuine born-again believers, new creations in Christ, love to obey Him. Not to be accepted by Him. Nor so that God will continue to accept them. But because they have already been saved. They have already been clothed with the righteousness of Christ. And are confidently going to heaven, expressing their love and gratitude toward Christ on the way by obeying Him.
I hope the following will be a good read for you:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-greatest-all-protestant-heresies/
Friend, you resemble the Pharisee of the parable. He thanked God for everything he did. He believed in God, and even acknowledged that his good works were done with the help of God (that's why he thanked God). And still, this man perished (that's what Jesus said - Luke 18:9-14). What was his problem? The same problem you have. He was trusting, even partly, in his own good works (which he did by God's help) in order to be justified.
And now, friend, I must call you to stop insulting Christ by thinking that you have to add your good works to His already perfect work on the cross and trust solely in Him, and receive Him as your only righteousness. Become like the tax-collector. And be saved. I pray you will.
Genuine born-again believers, new creations in Christ, love to obey Him. Not to be accepted by Him. Nor so that God will continue to accept them. But because they have already been saved. They have already been clothed with the righteousness of Christ. And are confidently going to heaven, expressing their love and gratitude toward Christ on the way by obeying Him.
I hope the following will be a good read for you:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-greatest-all-protestant-heresies/
Friend, you resemble the Pharisee of the parable. He thanked God for everything he did. He believed in God, and even acknowledged that his good works were done with the help of God (that's why he thanked God). And still, this man perished (that's what Jesus said - Luke 18:9-14). What was his problem? The same problem you have. He was trusting, even partly, in his own good works (which he did by God's help) in order to be justified.
And now, friend, I must call you to stop insulting Christ by thinking that you have to add your good works to His already perfect work on the cross and trust solely in Him, and receive Him as your only righteousness. Become like the tax-collector. And be saved. I pray you will.
2.13.2013 | 5:33pm
simo says:
Don't let them speak for all Protestants Artaban7!
Catholics who really on gods grace will be saved. And I love my catholic brothers and sisters
Don't hear Protestants say that works are unimportant - they are VITAL indicators that our faith is alive and real. This is what Jesus is speaking about in those passages.
Anyone who claims to know Christ (ie true faith) but does not love and obey, is kidding themselves - whether catholic OR protestant
The question we must all ask ourselves is, are we relying on Gods grace (with works indicating this is true) or are we sort of relying on Gods grace, but really relying on our works? This is why it is grace alone thru faith alone - but a faith that will produce love and obedience
Catholics who really on gods grace will be saved. And I love my catholic brothers and sisters
Don't hear Protestants say that works are unimportant - they are VITAL indicators that our faith is alive and real. This is what Jesus is speaking about in those passages.
Anyone who claims to know Christ (ie true faith) but does not love and obey, is kidding themselves - whether catholic OR protestant
The question we must all ask ourselves is, are we relying on Gods grace (with works indicating this is true) or are we sort of relying on Gods grace, but really relying on our works? This is why it is grace alone thru faith alone - but a faith that will produce love and obedience
2.14.2013 | 9:34am
Anna Williams says:
Reminder: As recently mentioned on our blog (http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/16/commenting-policy/), we do not permit multiple-part comments or comments over 300 words. That is why some comments on this thread have not been posted even though they are civil, relevant, etc.
2.14.2013 | 12:33pm
Artaban7 says:
Simo,
I very much appreciate your great post. And I'm in total agreement (as is the RCC) when you say:
"Don't hear Protestants say that works are unimportant - they are VITAL indicators that our faith is alive and real. This is what Jesus is speaking about in those passages.
Anyone who claims to know Christ (ie true faith) but does not love and obey, is kidding themselves - whether catholic OR protestant"
I thank Theo K for his prayers, and assure him of my own prayers on his behalf, though he is most mistaken in presuming that I am "thinking that you have to add your good works to His already perfect work on the cross".
That statement by Theo K is itself in need of clarification. Are you suggesting that we can somehow improve Christ's sacrifice through our own actions? Certainly Christ's sacrifice was perfect and cannot be improved by our own. The RCC teaches the perfection of Christ's sacrifice.
On the other hand, we very much are called to act in love and goodness. We cannot presume that because Christ's sacrifice is perfect we can now live lives of immorality. Such presumption would be against the very teaching of Christ:
"Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5: 48 (And of course this is impossible for men by ourselves, and only possible when we rely on God's help.)
and "Go and commit this sin no more." (John 8:11)
Our actions do matter. If they didn't, free will is a sham. I respect much of the teaching and work of Sproule and Ravi Zacharias, but the article you cite seems to suggest Christ wasn't serious when he said, "Not all who say to me, Lord, Lord will be saved..." Matthew 7: 21-23
I very much appreciate your great post. And I'm in total agreement (as is the RCC) when you say:
"Don't hear Protestants say that works are unimportant - they are VITAL indicators that our faith is alive and real. This is what Jesus is speaking about in those passages.
Anyone who claims to know Christ (ie true faith) but does not love and obey, is kidding themselves - whether catholic OR protestant"
I thank Theo K for his prayers, and assure him of my own prayers on his behalf, though he is most mistaken in presuming that I am "thinking that you have to add your good works to His already perfect work on the cross".
That statement by Theo K is itself in need of clarification. Are you suggesting that we can somehow improve Christ's sacrifice through our own actions? Certainly Christ's sacrifice was perfect and cannot be improved by our own. The RCC teaches the perfection of Christ's sacrifice.
On the other hand, we very much are called to act in love and goodness. We cannot presume that because Christ's sacrifice is perfect we can now live lives of immorality. Such presumption would be against the very teaching of Christ:
"Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5: 48 (And of course this is impossible for men by ourselves, and only possible when we rely on God's help.)
and "Go and commit this sin no more." (John 8:11)
Our actions do matter. If they didn't, free will is a sham. I respect much of the teaching and work of Sproule and Ravi Zacharias, but the article you cite seems to suggest Christ wasn't serious when he said, "Not all who say to me, Lord, Lord will be saved..." Matthew 7: 21-23
2.14.2013 | 12:42pm
Artaban7 says:
"Your problem is that you trust, even partly, upon your good works to be justified. You obey in order to be justified (or keep your justification). And this is a damning mistake." --Theo K
You claim to know an awful lot about me based on a single post under 300 words. Truly, you are a better man than I to be able to damn another and know what God thinks about him, having never even met him.
Brother, when did God grant you the task of judging souls?
It is perhaps appropriate/ironic you speak of Pharisees...
Official Catholic teaching is not so arrogant as to claim any individual has been damned--to do so would be to fall into the sin of idolatry--though it does emphasize, as Christ did, damnation as a real possibility. Still, we are to pray that "All men be saved..."
You claim to know an awful lot about me based on a single post under 300 words. Truly, you are a better man than I to be able to damn another and know what God thinks about him, having never even met him.
Brother, when did God grant you the task of judging souls?
It is perhaps appropriate/ironic you speak of Pharisees...
Official Catholic teaching is not so arrogant as to claim any individual has been damned--to do so would be to fall into the sin of idolatry--though it does emphasize, as Christ did, damnation as a real possibility. Still, we are to pray that "All men be saved..."
2.14.2013 | 1:59pm
Bill Perry says:
Moore fails to include exactly WHY the last two popes held to the dignity of humanity and opposed Soviet totalitarianism and Liberation Theology. It's because those points are part of Catholicism, which they promote being popes. Any worldview or theological system outside of Catholicism is a competing system and therefore antithetical to Rome's quest for global religious domination. They don't call it the Mother Church for nothing. So to applaud any pope for holding to some biblical truths to advance Catholicism's less-than-biblical system over another is misguided at best. It's like applauding counterfeiters for getting their fake money the right color as the real dollars but putting Lincoln on the one-dollar bill.
2.15.2013 | 3:53am
Don Roberto says:
40,000 sects can't be wrong, can they? Oh, but wait, Luther didn't manage to exise James (faith w/o works in dead). But on the the hand, to paraphrase Luther, we are to sin freely, for as long as we have faith we are saved, no?
Confusion reigns when there is no Magisterium , guided by the promise of the help of the Holy Spirit. May He guide us now, as a new Keeper of the Keys (His Steward and Vicar) is selected.
Confusion reigns when there is no Magisterium , guided by the promise of the help of the Holy Spirit. May He guide us now, as a new Keeper of the Keys (His Steward and Vicar) is selected.
2.15.2013 | 5:36am
Theo K says:
@Artaban7
Friend, Official Catholic teaching is very specific on these things. Do you subscribe to everything the RCC teaches? If not then what are you doing there?
If yes, of course you believe that you must add your good works (enabled by divine grace) in order to be justified. That's the official teaching of Rome. They say that justification is the process that one must go through in order to finally be made righteous (and then go to God and present to Him one’s own righteousness/obedience - do you see how you trust in your own divinely enabled good works?). You don’t believe that Jesus clothes with His perfect righteousness all those sinners that are united to Him solely by faith. If you do, why are you still in the RCC?
To reject the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is a damning mistake. Because it is the galatian heresy (trying to add your obedience to the perfect work of Christ on behalf of sinners in order to be justified – declared right with God). About which heresy apostle Paul proclaims his (divinely inspired) anathema. (Galatians 1)
The stakes are THAT high. The gospel of Rome is 'another' than the Gospel of the Reformation. This is why the Reformation happened in the first place.
Friend, did you read the article I provided? As a response to your last point, the RCC is so arrogant as to dare say that no-one (apart from special revelation) can have assurance of salvation (contra 1 John 5:13). That is quite telling, isn't?
Friend, Official Catholic teaching is very specific on these things. Do you subscribe to everything the RCC teaches? If not then what are you doing there?
If yes, of course you believe that you must add your good works (enabled by divine grace) in order to be justified. That's the official teaching of Rome. They say that justification is the process that one must go through in order to finally be made righteous (and then go to God and present to Him one’s own righteousness/obedience - do you see how you trust in your own divinely enabled good works?). You don’t believe that Jesus clothes with His perfect righteousness all those sinners that are united to Him solely by faith. If you do, why are you still in the RCC?
To reject the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is a damning mistake. Because it is the galatian heresy (trying to add your obedience to the perfect work of Christ on behalf of sinners in order to be justified – declared right with God). About which heresy apostle Paul proclaims his (divinely inspired) anathema. (Galatians 1)
The stakes are THAT high. The gospel of Rome is 'another' than the Gospel of the Reformation. This is why the Reformation happened in the first place.
Friend, did you read the article I provided? As a response to your last point, the RCC is so arrogant as to dare say that no-one (apart from special revelation) can have assurance of salvation (contra 1 John 5:13). That is quite telling, isn't?
2.15.2013 | 11:03am
Artaban7 says:
"As a response to your last point, the RCC is so arrogant as to dare say that no-one (apart from special revelation) can have assurance of salvation (contra 1 John 5:13). That is quite telling, isn't? "
It is quite telling. It tells that the RCC is true to the teaching of Christ to "Pray that you not be put to the test..." (Matthew 26:41) and that the RCC is faithful to Paul's injunction to "as you have always obeyed...work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12).
What is also telling is throughout our entire discussion, while I've appealed many times to the Scriptures to support thoughts, you've not done so once. Very curious behavior, if I may say so, and quite unusual coming from a Protestant Christian.
I still fail to see where I've "reject(ed) the imputation of Christ's righteousness". In my Baptism--and at every Baptism when we Catholics renew our baptismal vows--we welcome, ask for, and rejoice in Christ's imparted grace.
It is quite telling. It tells that the RCC is true to the teaching of Christ to "Pray that you not be put to the test..." (Matthew 26:41) and that the RCC is faithful to Paul's injunction to "as you have always obeyed...work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12).
What is also telling is throughout our entire discussion, while I've appealed many times to the Scriptures to support thoughts, you've not done so once. Very curious behavior, if I may say so, and quite unusual coming from a Protestant Christian.
I still fail to see where I've "reject(ed) the imputation of Christ's righteousness". In my Baptism--and at every Baptism when we Catholics renew our baptismal vows--we welcome, ask for, and rejoice in Christ's imparted grace.
2.15.2013 | 11:52am
JDD says:
[Theo K] "And now, friend, I must call you to stop insulting Christ by thinking that you have to add your good works to His already perfect work on the cross and trust solely in Him, and receive Him as your only righteousness."
Theo K, though I appreciate teachers like Ravi Z quite a lot, (even heard him preach in person back in Urbana '93,) your posts in contrast come across as quite a lot of telling someone what they believe, and then shooting it down. Not much to be gained there. No one else has mentioned it yet, but the "And now, friend," is making your paragraphs seemed awfully canned. Can you just put things a little more in your own words?
'Insulting Christ," is pretty strong for not having developed a conversation yet with your opponent.
Considering you statement above, I note that St. Paul writes, "Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." [Col 1:24]
Note who the actions of Paul is *for*. I've never heard a good response to this Scripture from someone of your point of view that didn't immediately get back to their original topic sentence. Can you please tell me what your denomination thinks of this?
Theo K, though I appreciate teachers like Ravi Z quite a lot, (even heard him preach in person back in Urbana '93,) your posts in contrast come across as quite a lot of telling someone what they believe, and then shooting it down. Not much to be gained there. No one else has mentioned it yet, but the "And now, friend," is making your paragraphs seemed awfully canned. Can you just put things a little more in your own words?
'Insulting Christ," is pretty strong for not having developed a conversation yet with your opponent.
Considering you statement above, I note that St. Paul writes, "Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church." [Col 1:24]
Note who the actions of Paul is *for*. I've never heard a good response to this Scripture from someone of your point of view that didn't immediately get back to their original topic sentence. Can you please tell me what your denomination thinks of this?
2.15.2013 | 9:25pm
Sean Carlson says:
This Pope & his predecessor were both men of great stature. How many of those does one know nowadays? Well worth reading & listening to regardless of one agreeing/disagreeing with them theologically
2.17.2013 | 4:05pm
Theo K says:
@Artaban7
Friend, I already mentioned 1 John 5:13 (... "so that you may know that you have eternal life"). Ok, I’ll also mention John 5:24, 6:37-40, and 10:25-30.
Also, and this is crucial, please take the time to read this:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/the-village-blog/imparted-or-imputed-righteousness/
(please also look at the footnotes, excellent resources there:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/mediafiles/article-what-distinguishes-protestant-from-roman-catholic-theology.pdf
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/faith-and-the-imputation-of-righteousness)
I don't expect you to agree (although I would certainly hope so), but at least you will understand the difference between imputed and imparted righteousness (the RCC rejects the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer - whereas God justifies the ungodly, while they are still ungodly - scandalously good news, I know).
Friend, I already mentioned 1 John 5:13 (... "so that you may know that you have eternal life"). Ok, I’ll also mention John 5:24, 6:37-40, and 10:25-30.
Also, and this is crucial, please take the time to read this:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/the-village-blog/imparted-or-imputed-righteousness/
(please also look at the footnotes, excellent resources there:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/mediafiles/article-what-distinguishes-protestant-from-roman-catholic-theology.pdf
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/faith-and-the-imputation-of-righteousness)
I don't expect you to agree (although I would certainly hope so), but at least you will understand the difference between imputed and imparted righteousness (the RCC rejects the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer - whereas God justifies the ungodly, while they are still ungodly - scandalously good news, I know).
2.17.2013 | 4:22pm
Theo K says:
@JDD
Friend (unless I have a name to call you, I'll stick to 'friend', if that is alright), the RCC teaches specific things. Do you disagree? They are well documented. So I know what the RCC teaches. If you are a Roman Catholic and you contradict RCC's teachings, why are you still there? This is a fair question, I think. You will allow me to restate that RCC dogma does indeed insult Christ. Please see pdf:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/mediafiles/article-what-distinguishes-protestant-from-roman-catholic-theology.pdf
If you want to know what I believe all you have to do is google ‘Westminster Confession of Faith’
Also, concerning Col 1:24 : I am sorry you take this verse to mean that Christ's suffering is not all-sufficient and completely efficacious – against Heb 10 (that's not really Christ exalting, is it?)
You can find a good (in my view, because the approach uses the principle: scripture interprets scripture) explanation of this paragraph here:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/called-to-suffer-and-rejoice-to-finish-the-aim-of-christs-afflictions
So, friends, here is the crux of it all: the Lord Jesus Christ has saved me, is saving me, and will save me to the end, only because of and by His grace alone. Aren't these the best news in the world? I am clothed with Christ's perfect righteousness. Jesus IS my righteousness. Glory to God! He regenerated me. His spirit indwells me and leads me to walk in the good works that He has prepared for me beforehand. And one day, as He has promised, He will take me to be with Him forever. Why on earth would I ever want to exchange this amazingly good news (Gospel) with the false gospel of Rome that saves no one?
Friend (unless I have a name to call you, I'll stick to 'friend', if that is alright), the RCC teaches specific things. Do you disagree? They are well documented. So I know what the RCC teaches. If you are a Roman Catholic and you contradict RCC's teachings, why are you still there? This is a fair question, I think. You will allow me to restate that RCC dogma does indeed insult Christ. Please see pdf:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/mediafiles/article-what-distinguishes-protestant-from-roman-catholic-theology.pdf
If you want to know what I believe all you have to do is google ‘Westminster Confession of Faith’
Also, concerning Col 1:24 : I am sorry you take this verse to mean that Christ's suffering is not all-sufficient and completely efficacious – against Heb 10 (that's not really Christ exalting, is it?)
You can find a good (in my view, because the approach uses the principle: scripture interprets scripture) explanation of this paragraph here:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/called-to-suffer-and-rejoice-to-finish-the-aim-of-christs-afflictions
So, friends, here is the crux of it all: the Lord Jesus Christ has saved me, is saving me, and will save me to the end, only because of and by His grace alone. Aren't these the best news in the world? I am clothed with Christ's perfect righteousness. Jesus IS my righteousness. Glory to God! He regenerated me. His spirit indwells me and leads me to walk in the good works that He has prepared for me beforehand. And one day, as He has promised, He will take me to be with Him forever. Why on earth would I ever want to exchange this amazingly good news (Gospel) with the false gospel of Rome that saves no one?
2.18.2013 | 10:40am
JDD says:
[Theo K] "If you want to know what I believe all you have to do is google ‘Westminster Confession of Faith’"
The Westminster Confession lists the books of Scripture to be considered, and then derives its theological content from that list. But if Martin Luther decided on the books to accept, then isn't your bedrock really Martin Luther? The content of the Westminster Confession is in some respect a result of his decisions. For more, I would recommend "By What Authority?" by Mark Shea.
[Theo K] "Also, concerning Col 1:24 : I am sorry you take this verse to mean that Christ's suffering is not all-sufficient and completely efficacious."
See, that's not actually what I 'take this verse to mean.' Catholics would say rather that we share in the suffering and share in his redemptive work as the Body of Christ, and when we do this then Christ's work has merit and we've participated in it. That doesn't mean we are the author of it. We are simply not merely spectator, as it were, but rather participants in Christ's life - all of it. By this sharing in Christ's life, my efforts really do have some affect on the world, and really do have some effect on my own soul - but it remains Christ's work. I've read some of your link. Upon more discussion, we might find that we're not as far apart on this point as you might think.
The Westminster Confession lists the books of Scripture to be considered, and then derives its theological content from that list. But if Martin Luther decided on the books to accept, then isn't your bedrock really Martin Luther? The content of the Westminster Confession is in some respect a result of his decisions. For more, I would recommend "By What Authority?" by Mark Shea.
[Theo K] "Also, concerning Col 1:24 : I am sorry you take this verse to mean that Christ's suffering is not all-sufficient and completely efficacious."
See, that's not actually what I 'take this verse to mean.' Catholics would say rather that we share in the suffering and share in his redemptive work as the Body of Christ, and when we do this then Christ's work has merit and we've participated in it. That doesn't mean we are the author of it. We are simply not merely spectator, as it were, but rather participants in Christ's life - all of it. By this sharing in Christ's life, my efforts really do have some affect on the world, and really do have some effect on my own soul - but it remains Christ's work. I've read some of your link. Upon more discussion, we might find that we're not as far apart on this point as you might think.
2.18.2013 | 12:27pm
JDD says:
[Theo K] "Also, concerning Col 1:24 : I am sorry you take this verse to mean that Christ's suffering is not all-sufficient and completely efficacious."
See, that's not actually what I 'take this verse to mean.' Catholics would say rather that we share in the suffering and share in his redemptive work as the Body of Christ, and when we do this then Christ's work has merit and we've participated in it. That doesn't mean we are the author of it. We are simply not merely spectator, as it were, but rather participants in Christ's life - all of it. By this sharing in Christ's life, my efforts really do have some affect on the world, and really do have some effect on my own soul - but it remains Christ's work. I've read some of your link. Upon more discussion, we might find that we're not as far apart on this point as you might think.
See, that's not actually what I 'take this verse to mean.' Catholics would say rather that we share in the suffering and share in his redemptive work as the Body of Christ, and when we do this then Christ's work has merit and we've participated in it. That doesn't mean we are the author of it. We are simply not merely spectator, as it were, but rather participants in Christ's life - all of it. By this sharing in Christ's life, my efforts really do have some affect on the world, and really do have some effect on my own soul - but it remains Christ's work. I've read some of your link. Upon more discussion, we might find that we're not as far apart on this point as you might think.
2.25.2013 | 12:43pm
Theo K says:
JDD,
Martin Luther decided the books!!!! Where do you get stuff like that?!? Concerning authority, I will simply say that the church (btw the office of Papacy was unheard of until the 4th/5th century) did NOT create the cannon. It merely passively recognized, received the already God-breathed books. The scriptures create the church and not vice-versa.
Concerning ‘by what authority’:
http://vintage.aomin.org/ByWhatAuthority.html
I believe it would do you much good to read some of the articles here:
http://vintage.aomin.org/Roman.html
and here:
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles_roman_catholicism.php
especially: http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/pope.html
It is really eye-opening. O that God would open your eyes!
It is very clear that the Christian faith as expressed in WCF is miles apart from the RCC dogma. It is very clear that Rome has anathematized the Reformation’s understanding of the Gospel (check out the ‘5 solas’ VS the council of Trent), and as an effect, RCC has been considered as an apostate church from the Reformed churches for centuries. These differences are only getting bigger and bigger
(see http://www.thevillagechurch.net/mediafiles/article-what-distinguishes-protestant-from-roman-catholic-theology.pdf for a small taste)
Of course there are Christians in the RCC despite the fact they are there. And they are Christians because they do not believe all the false teachings of Rome. But if you are an RC who subscribes to all of Rome’s official teachings, then we are worlds apart. I fear for you. It does us no good to pretend that believing in (literally) different gospels is something that can be somehow overlooked. O that you would see the beauty of Jesus in the Gospel. The real Jesus. The Jesus who saved completely His people on the cross from ALL sins, past, present, future (Heb 10).
Martin Luther decided the books!!!! Where do you get stuff like that?!? Concerning authority, I will simply say that the church (btw the office of Papacy was unheard of until the 4th/5th century) did NOT create the cannon. It merely passively recognized, received the already God-breathed books. The scriptures create the church and not vice-versa.
Concerning ‘by what authority’:
http://vintage.aomin.org/ByWhatAuthority.html
I believe it would do you much good to read some of the articles here:
http://vintage.aomin.org/Roman.html
and here:
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles_roman_catholicism.php
especially: http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/pope.html
It is really eye-opening. O that God would open your eyes!
It is very clear that the Christian faith as expressed in WCF is miles apart from the RCC dogma. It is very clear that Rome has anathematized the Reformation’s understanding of the Gospel (check out the ‘5 solas’ VS the council of Trent), and as an effect, RCC has been considered as an apostate church from the Reformed churches for centuries. These differences are only getting bigger and bigger
(see http://www.thevillagechurch.net/mediafiles/article-what-distinguishes-protestant-from-roman-catholic-theology.pdf for a small taste)
Of course there are Christians in the RCC despite the fact they are there. And they are Christians because they do not believe all the false teachings of Rome. But if you are an RC who subscribes to all of Rome’s official teachings, then we are worlds apart. I fear for you. It does us no good to pretend that believing in (literally) different gospels is something that can be somehow overlooked. O that you would see the beauty of Jesus in the Gospel. The real Jesus. The Jesus who saved completely His people on the cross from ALL sins, past, present, future (Heb 10).
2.25.2013 | 4:04pm
Artaban7 says:
"The scriptures create the church and not vice-versa." Theo K
So by your reckoning, Theo, the Church did not exist until the Gospels were written around 65 AD? Or when Paul wrote his first letter (38 AD)? It didn't exist during the life of Christ?! (For He did not commit the Gospels to writing prior to his Ascension). All that stuff the Apostles and disciples were doing was irrelevant until it got recorded?
That is not true. The Roman Catholic Church has always emphasized the need for Scripture and Tradition, as the Church DID exist before the formal writing of any New Testament works, and was meeting, Baptizing, sharing the Lord's Supper, etc., as Luke attests to in the historical (but not merely historical) Acts of the Apostles. All the Scriptures rely on the integrity of oral tradition, and the Spirit's ability to preserve it in the Church. Why would that action of the Holy Spirit remain valid until just prior to the Reformation, then stop?
Finally, should one wish to understand Protestantism, and some of the differences between denominations, one must study Martin Luther, a former (very devout) Catholic priest, and a man who for all his brilliance and many just criticisms of some unscrupulous clergyman, was also deeply flawed.
If you accuse me of relying on good works, you'd really have bristled at Martin Luther. His extreme sense of guilt/scrupulosity (he'd confess multiple times per day, and for hours on end) was something his superiors tried to heal. His excessive scrupulosity (in my estimation) caused him to react--as most of us do--by trying to compensate for one error by swinging too far in the opposite direction.
So by your reckoning, Theo, the Church did not exist until the Gospels were written around 65 AD? Or when Paul wrote his first letter (38 AD)? It didn't exist during the life of Christ?! (For He did not commit the Gospels to writing prior to his Ascension). All that stuff the Apostles and disciples were doing was irrelevant until it got recorded?
That is not true. The Roman Catholic Church has always emphasized the need for Scripture and Tradition, as the Church DID exist before the formal writing of any New Testament works, and was meeting, Baptizing, sharing the Lord's Supper, etc., as Luke attests to in the historical (but not merely historical) Acts of the Apostles. All the Scriptures rely on the integrity of oral tradition, and the Spirit's ability to preserve it in the Church. Why would that action of the Holy Spirit remain valid until just prior to the Reformation, then stop?
Finally, should one wish to understand Protestantism, and some of the differences between denominations, one must study Martin Luther, a former (very devout) Catholic priest, and a man who for all his brilliance and many just criticisms of some unscrupulous clergyman, was also deeply flawed.
If you accuse me of relying on good works, you'd really have bristled at Martin Luther. His extreme sense of guilt/scrupulosity (he'd confess multiple times per day, and for hours on end) was something his superiors tried to heal. His excessive scrupulosity (in my estimation) caused him to react--as most of us do--by trying to compensate for one error by swinging too far in the opposite direction.
2.27.2013 | 5:09pm
Theo K says:
@Artaban7
You are right friend, I misspoke. What I meant to say was: “The Word of God creates the church, and not vice-versa”. You see, in my mind the scriptures and the Word of God are interchangeable terms. So my point was that long before the Papacy was introduced (sometime during 4th/5th century), God was creating His people by His Word. And this is true even during Old Testament times. I am sure the people of Israel weren’t anxiously waiting for the RCC to tell them what their scriptures were…
Oral tradition? Do you mean the Christ-belittling RCC teaching concerning Mary as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix? Not to mention the bodily assumption of Mary, the Papacy, purgatory, sacraments etc etc. I think I‘ll take my chances and stick with the scriptures, thank you very much.
Concerning Luther, friend, I am well aware of his biography. He was right in his sense of guilt. It would do you so much good if you could also see yourself clothed in filthy rags before the holy God who will accept nothing less than absolute perfection. Thank God for opening Luther’s eyes to the genuine Gospel, where it is revealed that what God demands (perfect righteousness) He gives it for free in his Son to all those sinners that will be united with Him solely by faith.
Read again the links I have provided you. They clearly contrast the false gospel of Rome with the beautiful Gospel of Jesus. And may God enlighten you to your desperate need for the perfect, imputed righteousness of Jesus, as He did with Luther. Stop trusting in your works as the basis of your acceptance before God. And trust in Jesus Christ alone.
You are right friend, I misspoke. What I meant to say was: “The Word of God creates the church, and not vice-versa”. You see, in my mind the scriptures and the Word of God are interchangeable terms. So my point was that long before the Papacy was introduced (sometime during 4th/5th century), God was creating His people by His Word. And this is true even during Old Testament times. I am sure the people of Israel weren’t anxiously waiting for the RCC to tell them what their scriptures were…
Oral tradition? Do you mean the Christ-belittling RCC teaching concerning Mary as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix? Not to mention the bodily assumption of Mary, the Papacy, purgatory, sacraments etc etc. I think I‘ll take my chances and stick with the scriptures, thank you very much.
Concerning Luther, friend, I am well aware of his biography. He was right in his sense of guilt. It would do you so much good if you could also see yourself clothed in filthy rags before the holy God who will accept nothing less than absolute perfection. Thank God for opening Luther’s eyes to the genuine Gospel, where it is revealed that what God demands (perfect righteousness) He gives it for free in his Son to all those sinners that will be united with Him solely by faith.
Read again the links I have provided you. They clearly contrast the false gospel of Rome with the beautiful Gospel of Jesus. And may God enlighten you to your desperate need for the perfect, imputed righteousness of Jesus, as He did with Luther. Stop trusting in your works as the basis of your acceptance before God. And trust in Jesus Christ alone.
3.5.2013 | 11:17am
Artaban7 says:
"Stop trusting in your works as the basis of your acceptance before God."
Again, the unfounded accusation. If you aren't going to listen, no true conversation can take place.
I find it curious you applaud Luther's excessive sense of guilt, as it harmed his health and deprived him of the joy of Christ--a joy you have valued in previous posts.
As for the "Christ-belittling RCC teaching concerning Mary", I pray you someday find for the mother of Christ the honor that is her due. It is incompatible to claim a love for Christ and belittle His mother so--are you better than Gabriel, to refuse to "Hail" the one full of grace? God's humility is so great He deigns to allow us to share in His work. That is a glorious and scriptural thing.
Again, the unfounded accusation. If you aren't going to listen, no true conversation can take place.
I find it curious you applaud Luther's excessive sense of guilt, as it harmed his health and deprived him of the joy of Christ--a joy you have valued in previous posts.
As for the "Christ-belittling RCC teaching concerning Mary", I pray you someday find for the mother of Christ the honor that is her due. It is incompatible to claim a love for Christ and belittle His mother so--are you better than Gabriel, to refuse to "Hail" the one full of grace? God's humility is so great He deigns to allow us to share in His work. That is a glorious and scriptural thing.
3.6.2013 | 9:07am
Theo K says:
@Artaban7
Friend, let's move forward. Let’s focus on one thing only. Forget about Mary, the Papacy etc etc.
Let’s focus on the Gospel. The MAIN thing. Luther helps toward that direction. Please try to understand. Luther was NOT a Christian when he was (rightly) sensing his own guilt before the holy God. He was still under the burden of his guilt, under the righteous wrath of God because of his sinfulness. He knew that God demanded perfect obedience of him, and he knew he didn’t have it. And then, God opened his eyes to understand the Gospel: The good news that what God demands He provides for free, as a free gift in His Son. And that was the moment Luther was born-again, the moment he was united with Jesus solely by faith, the moment he BECAME a Christian, the moment the chains of his guilt fell off, the moment he went through open gates into heaven, as he himself says. No more guilt, only joy and security in Christ.
Please read carefully the following, it briefly touches on Luther’s experience and it clearly describes the true, biblical Gospel:
http://www.the-highway.com/articleJan98.html
Also, read here about John Bunyan: he went home rejoicing, after realizing that his righteousness is in heaven. He stopped trusting in his (God-enabled) works and he trusted solely upon the God who totally accepts sinners in Christ, because of Christ alone:
http://www.reformation21.org/articles/we-are-not-saved-by-grace.php
“Saved by grace? No, we have a better gospel than that"
Friend, let's move forward. Let’s focus on one thing only. Forget about Mary, the Papacy etc etc.
Let’s focus on the Gospel. The MAIN thing. Luther helps toward that direction. Please try to understand. Luther was NOT a Christian when he was (rightly) sensing his own guilt before the holy God. He was still under the burden of his guilt, under the righteous wrath of God because of his sinfulness. He knew that God demanded perfect obedience of him, and he knew he didn’t have it. And then, God opened his eyes to understand the Gospel: The good news that what God demands He provides for free, as a free gift in His Son. And that was the moment Luther was born-again, the moment he was united with Jesus solely by faith, the moment he BECAME a Christian, the moment the chains of his guilt fell off, the moment he went through open gates into heaven, as he himself says. No more guilt, only joy and security in Christ.
Please read carefully the following, it briefly touches on Luther’s experience and it clearly describes the true, biblical Gospel:
http://www.the-highway.com/articleJan98.html
Also, read here about John Bunyan: he went home rejoicing, after realizing that his righteousness is in heaven. He stopped trusting in his (God-enabled) works and he trusted solely upon the God who totally accepts sinners in Christ, because of Christ alone:
http://www.reformation21.org/articles/we-are-not-saved-by-grace.php
“Saved by grace? No, we have a better gospel than that"
