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A Christian Hart, a Humean Head

In a piece in the March issue of First Things, David Bentley Hart suggests that the arguments of natural law theorists are bound to be ineffectual in the public square. The reason is that such arguments mistakenly presuppose that there is sufficient conceptual common ground between natural law theorists and their opponents for fruitful moral debate to be possible.


In particular, they presuppose that “the moral meaning of nature should be perfectly evident to any properly reasoning mind, regardless of religious belief or cultural formation.” In fact, Hart claims, there is no such common ground, insofar as “our concept of nature, in any age, is entirely dependent upon supernatural (or at least metaphysical) convictions.”


For Hart, it is only when we look at nature from a very specific religious and cultural perspective that we will see it the way natural law theorists need us to see it in order for their arguments to be compelling. And since such a perspective on nature “must be received as an apocalyptic interruption of our ordinary explanations,” as a deliverance of special divine revelation rather than secular reason, it is inevitably one that not all parties to public debate are going to share.


Now I have nothing but respect for Prof. Hart and his work. But this latest article is not his finest hour. Not to put too fine a point on it, by my count he commits no fewer than five logical fallacies: equivocation, straw man, begging the question, non sequitur, and special pleading.


He equivocates insofar as he fails to distinguish two very different theories that go under the “natural law” label. He also uses terms like “supernatural” and “metaphysical” as if they were interchangeable, or at least as if the differences between them were irrelevant to his argument.


These ambiguities are essential to his case. When they are resolved, it becomes clear that with respect to both versions of natural law theory, Hart is attacking straw men and simply begging the question against them. It also becomes evident that his conclusion—that it is “hopeless” to bring forth natural law arguments in the public square—doesn’t follow from his premises, and that even if it did, if he were consistent he would have to apply it to his own position no less than to natural law theory.


Let’s consider these problems with Hart’s argument in order. Who, specifically, are the “natural law theorists” that he is criticizing? He assures us that “names are not important.” In fact names are crucial, because it is only by running together the two main contemporary approaches to natural law that Hart can seem to have struck a blow against either.


So let’s name names. What we might call the classical (or “old”) natural law theory is the sort grounded in a specifically Aristotelian metaphysics of formal and final causes—that is to say, in the idea that things have immanent natures or substantial forms and that in virtue of those natures they are inherently directed toward certain natural ends, the realization of which constitutes the good for them. Accordingly, this approach firmly rejects the so-called “fact/value dichotomy” associated with modern philosophers like Hume.


Classical natural law theory’s most prominent historical defender is Aquinas, and it was standard in Neo-Scholastic manuals of ethics and moral theology in the pre-Vatican II period. In more recent decades it has been defended by writers like Ralph McInerny, Henry Veatch, Russell Hittinger, David Oderberg, and Anthony Lisska. (In the interests of full disclosure—of which, regrettably, self-promotion is a foreseen but unintended byproduct, justifiable under the principle of double effect—I suppose I should mention that I have also defended classical natural law theory in several places, such as my book Aquinas.)


What has come to be called the “new natural law theory” eschews any specifically Aristotelian metaphysical foundation, and in particular any appeal to formal and final causes and thus any appeal to human nature (at least as “old natural law” theorists would understand it). It is a very recent development—going back only to the 1960s, when it was invented by Germain Grisez—and its aim is to reconstruct natural law in terms that could be accepted by someone who affirms the Humean fact/value dichotomy.


In addition to Grisez, new natural law theory is associated with writers like John Finnis, Joseph Boyle, William May, Robert P. George, and Christopher Tollefsen. (Once again in the interests of full disclosure, I should note that like other classical natural law theorists, I have been very critical of the so-called “new natural lawyers.” But it is also only fair to point out that Hart’s argument has no more force against the “new” natural law theory than it does against the “old” or classical version.)


What the two approaches have in common is the view that objectively true moral conclusions can be derived from premises that in no way presuppose any purported divine revelation, any body of scriptural writings, or any particular religious tradition. Rather, they can in principle be known via purely philosophical arguments.


Where the two approaches differ is in their view of which philosophical claims, specifically, the natural law theorist must defend in order to develop a system of natural law ethics. The “old” natural law theorist would hold that a broadly classical, and specifically Aristotelian, metaphysical picture of the world must be part of a complete defense of natural law. The “new” natural law theorist would hold that natural law theory can be developed with a much more modest set of metaphysical claims—about the reality of free will, say, and a certain theory of practical reason—without having to challenge modern post-Humean, post-Kantian philosophy in as radical and wholesale a way as the “old” natural law theorist would.


Both sides agree, however, that some body of metaphysical claims must be a part of a complete natural law theory, and (again) that these claims can be defended without appeal to divine revelation, Scripture, etc.


Now Hart characterizes natural law theory in general as committed to the reality of final causes, indicates that he affirms their reality himself, but then (bizarrely) appeals to Hume’s fact/value dichotomy as if it were obviously consistent with affirming final causes, uses it as a basis for criticizing natural law theorists for supposing conceptual common ground with their opponents, and concludes that it is only by reference to controversial “supernatural (or at least metaphysical) convictions” that natural law theory could be defended. This is a tangle of confusions.


For one thing, if there were a version of natural law theory that both appealed to final causes in nature and at the same time could allow for Hume’s fact/value dichotomy, then Hart’s argument might at least get off the ground. But there is no such version of natural law theory, and it seems that Hart is conflating the “new” and the “old” versions, thereby directing his attack at a phantom position that no one actually holds. The “new natural lawyers” agree with Hume and Hart that one cannot derive an “ought” from an “is,” but precisely for that reason do not ground their position in a metaphysics of final causes. The “old” or classical natural law theory, meanwhile, certainly does affirm final causes, but precisely for that reason rejects Hume’s fact/value dichotomy, and in pressing it against them Hart simply begs the question.


It seems Hart thinks otherwise because he supposes that even if our nature directs us to certain ends that constitute the good for us, reason could still intelligibly wonder why it ought to respect those natural ends or the good they define. But this implicitly supposes that reason itself, unlike everything else, somehow lacks a natural end definitive of its proper function, or at least a natural end that we can know through pure philosophical inquiry. And that is precisely what classical natural law theory denies.


In the view of the “old” natural law theorist, when the metaphysics of intellect and volition are properly understood, it turns out that it cannot in principle be rational to will anything other than the good. The fusion of “facts” and “values” goes all the way down, without a gap into which the Humean might fit the wedge with which he’d like to sever practical reason from any particular end. Hart simply assumes that this is false, or at least unknowable; he doesn’t give any argument to show that it is. And thus he has offered no non-circular criticism of the classical natural law theorist.


Of course such a non-Humean view of practical reason is controversial—though I defend it in Aquinas, and other classical natural law theorists have defended it as well—but the fact that it is controversial is completely irrelevant to the dispute between Hart and natural law theory. For no natural law theorist denies that some controversial metaphysical conclusions have to be defended in order to defend natural law theory. That is true of any moral theory, including secular theories, and including whatever approach it is that Hart favors. Certainly it is true of the Humean thesis about “facts” and “values,” which is just one controversial metaphysical claim among others. Having to appeal to controversial metaphysical assumptions is in no way whatsoever a special problem for natural law theorists.


It also has nothing whatsoever to do with claims about the supernatural order. Sloppy popular usage aside, “supernatural” is not a synonym for “metaphysical”—as Hart himself implicitly acknowledges with the phrase “supernatural (or at least metaphysical),” quoted above. What is supernatural is what is beyond the natural order altogether, and thus cannot be known via purely philosophical argument but only via divine revelation. Metaphysics, by contrast, is an enterprise that Platonists, Aristotelians, materialists, idealists, philosophical theists, atheists, and others have for millennia been engaged in without any reference to divine revelation. So for Hart to insinuate that its dependence on metaphysical premises entails that natural law rests on divine revelation, “supernatural” foundations, or “an apocalyptic interruption of our ordinary explanations” is simply a non sequitur.


On the other hand, if all Hart means to assert is that natural law theorists suppose that the metaphysical commitments crucial to their position are uncontroversial, then he is attacking a straw man. No natural law theorist claims any such thing. What they claim is merely that, however controversial, their position can be defended via purely philosophical arguments and without resort to divine revelation. And if its being controversial makes it “hopeless” as a contribution to the public square, then every controversial position is hopeless.


Including Hart’s. Which brings us to special pleading. For what exactly is Hart’s alternative approach to moral debate in the public square, and how is it supposed to be any better? Is a theological position like his—with its appeal to the supernatural, to “apocalyptic interruptions,” and the like—less controversial than natural law theory? Is it more likely to win the day in the public square? To ask these question is to answer them.


Nor could Hart plausibly retreat into a quietist position that refuses to engage with those who do not already share his fundamental commitments. For one thing, there is nothing quiet about his book Atheist Delusions, which was presumably intended as a contribution to the public debate over the New Atheism, not as a mere sermon to the circle of his fellow believers. That presupposes enough conceptual common ground with those who disagree with him for them to understand his position, controversial though it is, and in principle come to be swayed by his arguments. If Hart can do this, why can’t natural law theorists?


Here we see one of several ways in which Hart’s position is ultimately incoherent. Insofar as he applies his criticisms consistently he will find that they undermine his own view no less than the natural law theorist’s.


Suppose Hume’s stricture against deriving an “ought” from an “is” really were well-founded. It would follow that the purely theological ethics to which Hart seems committed, no less than natural law theory, cannot get off the ground. For statements about what has been divinely revealed, or what God has commanded, would be mere statements of “fact” (as Hume understands facts), statements about what “is” the case. And how (given Hume’s account of practical reason) does that tell us anything about “value,” about what we “ought” to do?


The most we can have are the merely hypothetical imperatives Hart rightly (if inconsistently) derides as insufficient for morality. If we happen to care about what God has said, then we’ll do such-and-such. But that tells us nothing about why we ought to care. Hart, like so many other Christian philosophers and theologians eager to accommodate themselves to Hume and other moderns, fails to see that he has drunk not a tonic that will restore youthfulness to the Faith, but a poison that will kill the modernizer no less than the traditionalist.


Notice also the rich irony of a thinker who urges us to trust in divine revelation rather than natural reason, and who appeals to a secularist philosophical argument in order to make his case. Here Hart recapitulates a muddle that one finds again and again in those who would absorb nature into grace, or otherwise do dirt on mere natural theology and natural law in favor of revelation alone. They inevitably appeal to premises that cannot be found in revelation itself, because there is no way in principle to avoid doing so.


For what is it in the first place for something to be revealed? How can we know it really has been? Why accept this purported revelation rather than that one? If the answers are supposed to be found in some purported revelation itself, how do we know that that was really revealed, or that its meta-level answers are better than those of some other purported revelation? And why wouldn’t such a patently circular procedure—appealing to a purported revelation in order to defend it—justify any point of view? It is only from a point of view outside the revelation—the point of view of our rational nature, which grace can only build on and never replace—that these questions can possibly be answered.


And then there is the question of why anyone else should accept the revelation—the missionary activity that, as I’m sure Hart would agree, the Christian is called to. If you are going to teach an Englishman Goethe in the original, you’re going to have to teach him German first. If you’re going to teach him algebra, you’d better make sure he already knows basic arithmetic. And if you’re going to preach the gospel to him, you’re going to have to convince him first that what you’re saying really did come from God, and isn’t just something the people you got it from made up or hallucinated.


That’s why apologetics—the praeambula fidei, the study of what natural reason can and must know before it can know the truths of faith—precedes dogmatics in the order of knowledge, and always will. The theologian who thinks otherwise is like the Goethe scholar who screams in German at his English-speaking students, telling them what idiots they are—and deriding those who would teach them German as engaged in a “hopeless” task.


Edward Feser is the author of The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism  and AquinasHe blogs about philosophy here.


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Comments:

3.6.2013 | 2:15am
Don Roberto says:
Truth can't contradict truth and we see (those with eyes to see see) over and over again that revealed truth is reasonable. But I fear I agree with Hart. Because the unrepentantly wicked (being biased) and the ignorant (being more interested in various entertainments than in philosophy or God) outnumber the righteous and the wise (full disclosure: I feel some kinship with both), natural law arguments will regretably be unconvincing in the public square.
3.6.2013 | 5:12am
Gian says:
Are there any defenders of Natural Law that are not Christians or even not Catholic?

How can one reason correctly with an impure heart?

Philosophy in ancient times was a religious pursuit; it had a definite aim to elevate the soul of the philosopher. So they could reason even without the gift of Christian revelation. But this generation of philosophers and intellectuals, they have no such view. So inevitably they can not reason correctly and Natural Law is hopeless against willful blindness.
3.6.2013 | 5:48am
I'd support Hart here in part; I'm not sure you've entirely understood the nuances of his argument.

First of all? Your assertion that there is a firm difference between "supernatural"ist and "metaphysical"ly-based arguments, is not tenable.

Are you really unaware of the all-too supernatural status of Metaphysics, in the days of Analytic Philosophy? Since the time of at least Russell and Wittegenstein, it is widely thought that all "Metaphysics" is crass speculation, or a mere confusion of language. While Richard Rorty went on to summarize current objections to Metaphysics, and its alleged "givens" or firm foundations, as based on the mere "myth of the given."
3.6.2013 | 5:50am
Michael PS says:
Supporters of Classical Natural Law posit a “natural order,” governed by Natural Law, consisting of truths accessible to unaided human reason, as something separate from the supernatural truths revealed in the Gospel. Thus, “grace” becomesan addition to a human nature already complete and sufficient in itself and unrelated to any intrinsic human need. Their cardinal principle is that “the end of nature must be proportionate to nature” and that “natural desire cannot extend beyond natural capacity.”

This is the “extrinsicism,” that Maurice Blondel rejected, when he insisted that “one cannot think or act anywhere as if we do not all have a supernatural destiny. Because, since it concerns the human being such as he is, in concreto, in his living and total reality, not in a simple state of hypothetical nature, nothing is truly complete (boucle), even in the sheerly natural order.” Cardinal Henri de Lubac called this extrinsicism, “the dualist theory that was destroying Christian thought.”

So, too, the New Natural Lawyers posit a purely natural end. Thus Grisez, “we reasonably take as our ultimate end an inclusive community of human persons along with other intelligent creatures and God—insofar as we know other intelligent creatures and God and can somehow cooperate with them and/or act for their good.”

Both schools rely on a doctrine of “pure nature” that flatly contradicts St Thomas, who teaches, “even though by his nature man is inclined to his ultimate end, he cannot reach it by nature but only by grace, and this owing to the loftiness of that end.” [In Boethius de Trinitate, q. 6, a. 4 ad 5.] For, “the beatitude of any rational creature whatsoever consists in seeing God through his essence (per essentiam)” [In IV Sent, d. 49, q. 2, a. 7: co]
3.6.2013 | 7:06am
A Reader says:
I will be re-reading and thinking about this post.

One first thought though: If I remember correctly, Paul Griffiths makes the point that we are compromised - all the way down - including our reason. I may have misunderstood him but thought his point was that without grace and powerful intercession of the Holy Spirit, we really cannot find the truth. In other words that our original perception of the law "written on the heart" has itself been damaged by original sin. If he is correct, that would certainly help to explain the pathos of human life.
3.6.2013 | 7:59am
David Layman says:
Everything hangs on final causation. Quoting one of Feser's links to his own blog:
"...there is no way to make sense of the fact that an efficient cause A regularly generates a certain specific effect or range of effects B ... if we don’t suppose that A inherently “points to” or is “directed at” B as toward an end or goal. Immanent efficient causal power goes hand in hand with immanent finality or directedness;..."

Sorry, I don't buy it. This confuses a final cause traceable to a rational mind with a final cause that appears to be in nature.
Suppose a group of terrorists fly a plane into a building to bring it down. The "final cause" is the will to bring down the building. Now suppose that building is brought down, not by terrorists, but by a meteorite. Is there is "final cause" in the meteorite? I don't think so. The meteorite does not will to bring down the building. It just happens.

I submit final causation is a "ghost in the machine" theory of science. It is an attempt to find a rational willing mind behind every event of nature. But events in nature are simply events. Nature has no mind. (This is not a denial that God is the final cause of all events. We are talking about what can be known about naturally.) I do not see how asserting a 2400 year old theory of causation ever more vigorously will convince modern pagans of its intelligibility.
3.6.2013 | 10:39am
Publius says:
In fact there are natural law theorists who are not Catholic--J. Budziszewski was not a Catholic when he first began to write on natural law, Stephen Grabill subscribes to natural law and is Reformed. Most of the contributors to Natural Law and Evangelical Political Thought are not Catholic and subscribe to natural law. Rabbi Novak speaks of natural law in Judaism. Hadley Arkes was a natural lawyer before he was received into the Catholic church. And there are others. Moreover, Budziszewski and C. S. Lewis both had a sense of objective morality prior to their respective conversions to Christianity. So did St. Augustine. Cicero subscribed to the notion of an objective, moral law and he was a pagan Roman. Xenophon speaks of the unwritten common laws that obtain for all people's at all places and times. And the ancient pagan Aristotle new that murder, theft, and adultery were always wrong--wrong for all people at all places and all times. He too (in his Rhetoric) speaks of the unwritten common laws that all people somehow intuit.

Finally, might we distinguish between the natural law itself and natural law theory. What natural lawyers theorize about is the natural law. And the empirical evidence vis-a-vis the thing itself is distinct form the evidence vis-a-vis the theory. As to the evidence, I submit that Lewis, Cooper, and a number of others are quite right--the evidence cuts against moral relativism and in favor of there being a natural law.

Finally--I'm not sure that David Layman understands the Aristotelian idea of telos or the history of science. But we can say this much--Modern science (and especially mechanistic modern science) or at least modern philosophy of science rejects final causation (as does modern thought generally). And yet modern science, especially modern medicine, clearly requires final causation if it is to be intelligible (how can you speak of heart disease without teleology or what Lisska calls the metaphysics of finality?).
3.6.2013 | 10:41am
David: "Final Cause" has nothing to do with "traceable to a rational mind" when one is talking about "nature." It certainly does when one is talking about artifacts.

So, for example, in your critique of Ed you imply that he has reasoned poorly. But in order to issue that judgment you have to have to have some understanding of what constitute's the mind's proper function, i.e., the end to which it is ordered. In other words, your judgment depends on knowing a final cause.

To take this further, Hart claims that one cannot derive an ought from an is. He then marshals an argument to make this case. Hart's conclusion: because of the way the world is, one ought not to try to derive an ought from an is.
3.6.2013 | 11:22am
Michael PS says:
Regarding Hume, as Miss Anscombe points out in Modern Moral Philosophy, Hume defines “truth” in such a way as to exclude ethical judgments from it, and professes that he has proved that they are so excluded. He also implicitly defines “passion” in such a way that aiming at anything is having a passion. His objection to passing from “is” to “ought” would apply equally to passing from “is” to “owes” or from “is” to “needs.”

“Suppose that I say to my grocer ‘Truth consists in either relations of ideas, as that 20/- = £1, or matters of fact, as that I ordered potatoes, you supplied them, and you sent me a bill. So it doesn’t apply to such a proposition as that I owe you such-and-such a sum.’

Now if one makes this comparison, it comes to light that the relation of the facts mentioned to the description “X owes Y so much money” is an interesting one, which I will call that of being ‘brute relative to’ that description. Further, the ‘brute’ facts mentioned here themselves have descriptions relatively to which other facts are ‘brute’ – as, e.g., he had potatoes carted to my house and they were left there are brute facts relative to ‘he supplied me with potatoes.’ And the fact X owes Y money is in turn ‘brute’ relative to other descriptions – e.g. ‘X is solvent.’“
3.6.2013 | 11:40am
Hugh McCann says:
Hope you'll take the time to read the brief essay, "How Does Man Know God?" and the short book, Lord God of Truth & Concerning the Teacher, wherein,

The late Dr Gordon Haddon Clark examined four major problems in the philosophy of Empiricism: sensation, causality, imagination, and induction. He concludes that Empiricism fails to solve all four problems, but that Biblical Christianity either avoids or can solve the problems that stymie the empiricists. Because it is closely related to Clark’s argument, also included is the dialogue De Magistro/ “Concerning the Teacher,” in which Augustine discusses the source of learning.

Both archived essay and book are @ www.trinityfoundation.org.

Thank you.
3.6.2013 | 11:52am
Publius says:
To sharpen some of the points here and in Feser's blog . . .

The so called is/ought fallacy (or naturalistic fallacy) says that we cannot derive ought statements from is statements thereby excluding oughtness (or obligation or normativity) from among the things that are. If the naturalistic fallacy is correct, then there is no such thing as ought and so no such as morality. Given the is-ought fallacy, there could be no morality of any kind (whether grounded in the nature of things or in supernatural revelation or anything else).

David Hart, whose work I generally hold in high regard (but not the latest FT piece, which was poorly reasoned indeed!), claimed that the naturalistic fallacy (the is-ought fallacy) is analytically true. But that is simply not the case. All that is analytically true (in relation to the fallacy) is this: One cannot derive oughts from purely factual statements (i.e., factual statements with no moral content or implication), if such there be. But it's not analytically false to say one can draw an ought from a moral is.

So the is-ought fallacy as framed by Hume is clearly too broad and problematic and clearly not analytically true. If it were analytically true, it would follow that there are no oughts--i.e., it would be analytically true that there is no such thing as morality or moral obligation (though interpreting Hume is dangerous business, this may well be the implication he intended).
3.6.2013 | 12:31pm
John Burford says:
Excellent article, Mr. Feser.

Unfortunately, most of the commenters on here neither understand natural law nor read your argument well.

First, a thing's final cause is not its "purpose." Obviously a rock has no "purpose." A thing's final cause is the effects that it tends to generate, or the behaviors that it is pointed towards. When you throw a rock towards a window, it tends to break the window and not burst into purple powder. That's an example of final cause. Another example of final cause: iron is attracted to magnets and wood is not.

Second, Mr. Feser clearly said that natural law rests on foundations that must be intellectually defended: act vs potency, 4 causes, etc. He's not saying that someone will accept natural law without understanding and accepting these underlying foundations. But he is saying that these foundations and natural law itself can be defended using only reason.

Third, I can't say I understand WoodbridgeGoodman's argument that metaphysics is inherently supernatural. Metaphysics is simply the philosophy of being--nothing supernatural about it. I think he's taking one school of philosophical thought and assuming that all atheist philosophers think that way. At Princeton, we had plenty of philosophy professors who specialized in metaphysics and most of them were atheists.
3.6.2013 | 1:21pm
Craig Payne says:
"Supporters of Classical Natural Law posit a “natural order,” governed by Natural Law, consisting of truths accessible to unaided human reason, as something separate from the supernatural truths revealed in the Gospel. Thus, “grace” becomesan addition to a human nature already complete and sufficient in itself and unrelated to any intrinsic human need."

Dear Michael PS: This is a legitimate criticism, but I do not think the "classical" natural law proponents make the mistake you are criticizing. They rather follow Aquinas, whom you quote. Even to know something naturally through that thing's natural order implies a mind to know (which is given in creation) and a natural order (which is also given in creation). Hence the title of Russell Hittinger's work, "The First Grace." Even natural law depends on grace, as Aquinas points out.

In other words, natural law is also Christocentric, like the gospel. The difference is that the first grace depends on Christ as Creator, while the gospel depends on Christ as Redeemer.

By the way, none of this even has to arise when discussing natural laws in the context of public order. One can recognize natural order and the laws governing the ends of something, without necessarily recognizing where (or from Whom) that order first arises. An easy example would be opposition to same-sex marriage, opposition which does not need to be religious in nature.
3.6.2013 | 1:32pm
David Layman says:
@ Publius & Dr. Beckwith:

quoting Feser, *Aquinas* (Beginners' Guides Series), p. 117: "...it is impossible for anything to be directed towards a ends unless that end exists in an intellect.... ...final causes...can only exist at all if there is a Supreme Intelligence or intellect outside the universe which directs things towards their ends."

That certainly sounds like to me that Dr. Feser thinks that final causation is only intelligible if there is some "rational mind" behind "nature," i.e., non-artificial events. The final cause in the meteor-hitting-the-building is the Supreme Intelligence willing such and such a motion of the meteor (putting aside whether it directly wills either the contact or the destruction).

I affirm, using Feser's own distinction, that the final end of a healthy heart is *supernaturally* God. I just don't see how we know that *metaphysically*. A well-functioning heart is one that pumps blood for a full life. *Naturally*, I don't see how the doctor needs to recognize God-as-final-end to determine (through experimentation of physiological functioning and testing of various nutritional regimens) how to keep the heart pumping.

Nor do I see how my criticisms of Feser imply knowledge of final ends. I don't know the *mind's* function. (How does a non-physical *process* have a function? More ghost in the machinery.) I simply know an argument that does not persuade or convince.
3.6.2013 | 2:03pm
Publius says:
@ David Layman,

You speak as if the first purpose and ultimate test of the existence of natural law (or perhaps of natural law theory--these are distinct things) is rhetorical. You measure the natural law by its ability to persuade. But this is not the first purpose of natural law or natural law theory. The point of noting the natural law is simply because it is there--whether we acknowledge it or no (though as J. Budziszewski points out, even our evasions pay tribute to it). The point of natural law theory is not first and foremost to persuade but first and foremost to explicate and account for the natural law. The point of the natural law is first about truth. As to persuasion . . . well, there are many reasons persuasion succeeds or fails. Persuasion often fails in the face of good and sound reasons and often succeeds with bad ones. But I don't see how that is either here or there (or anywhere). The truth of the natural law and the success of a natural law theory do not depend upon the ability to persuade but on correspondence to truth.

Moreover, shouldn't natural law critics have to actually address empirical evidence instead of hand waving about it. The evidence doesn't favor the denunciations of Hart, Neo-Calvinists, or secular, moral relativists (who make the same sort of arguments as Hart and Neo-Calvinists and have since ancient times). This failure to treat the evidence while mounting a putatively empirical critique against natural law seems telling.
3.6.2013 | 2:26pm
David Nickol says:
Having read the David Bentley Hart piece, a number of appreciations of it, a number of critiques, and now Edward Feser's attempt to eviscerate Hart, I have to smile at the idea that proponents of the New Natural Law think they can come up with moral truths relevant to public policy debates that can be "proven" to the extent that their opponents are obliged to accept them or be guilty of bad faith or demonstrable errors in rational thought. Can you imagine a public policy debate in which we had to have this current argument *first* in order to validate the assertions of proponents of the New Natural Law? Without wanting to seem anti-intellectual and dismiss the debate Hart's article stirred up, when seeing the brouhaha it is stirring up by people who are essentially ALL ON THE SAME SIDE, one has to question of how successful the New Natural Law theory can be in public policy debates when the debate over the *validity* of New Natural Law theory itself is so bitter.

I don't know whether it says anything of significance about the whole controversy or not, but of all the principals in the debate, the one I believe I would be most comfortable discussing ultimate questions with is David Bentley Hart. Many of the others sound more interested in wielding intellectual weapons than in getting at human truths.
3.6.2013 | 3:41pm
Tom Gnau says:
Bravo to Edward Feser, whose name should be shouted from the rooftops.
3.6.2013 | 4:17pm
David:

I don't think you understand. Feser is not arguing that you need to know that God exists in order to make, for example, the correct observation that the purpose of the human mind is to know. Rather, what he is suggesting is that finality in anything--as with all contingent realities--requires the existence of a necessary being. One can, for instance, appreciate a good meal without concerning oneself with the existence of chef. And even you are willing to concede the chef's existence, that concession does not require that one also have a belief that the chef, and all that which the universe consists, requires something outside itself in order to remain in existence.

If the term "mind" is troubling, let's use the phrase "cognitive powers." People, of course, can use those powers inconsistent with their proper end. The person, for example, who chooses to remain willfully ignorant, or employ his vast knowledge for evil ends, or decides to live a life of mental laziness and debauchery, is certainly someone who is not using his cognitive powers consistent with their proper end.

Your correction of those with whom you disagree implies that they are not employ their cognitive powers in a fashion consistent with the good to which they ordered: wisdom and knowledge. If not, why correct anyone?
3.6.2013 | 4:27pm
Craig Payne says:
"Nor do I see how my criticisms of Feser imply knowledge of final ends. I don't know the *mind's* function. (How does a non-physical *process* have a function? More ghost in the machinery.) I simply know an argument that does not persuade or convince."

Dear David Layman: If you "know an argument that does not persuade or convince," doesn't that make it a bad argument? An argument that does not reach its end, carry out its function?
3.6.2013 | 4:33pm
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3.6.2013 | 7:00pm
Don Roberto says:
I understand that argument is useless if we don’t “speak the same language,” but just what is this “public square” whereof we speak? If it is broader than just philosophers and natural lawyers, Hart is hard to refute. Even if it is not impossible to reason one’s way to first principles, how likely is it that a society of millions will be adequately comprised of people reflective enough to be “able to work out the conditions of contentedness and willing to sacrifice near-term pleasure for long-term benefits”? If it were, the subset that are incarcerated, depressed, divorced, addicted, obese, post-abortive, and/or destitute would not be so large. So I agree with Judge Bork, who expressed the notion in “Slouching Toward Gomorrah” that the “only alternative to ‘intellectual and moral relativism and/or nihilism’ is religious faith.” Unfortunately, the same folk who are most blind to natural law’s charms are (forgetful of the admonitions of the Founding Fathers) most likely to be suspicious or even fearful of allowing religion a significant role in the management of public life.
3.6.2013 | 7:56pm
The problem with Feser's argument is his being bewitched by his language. He accepts the strange presupposition that one can make a "purely philosophical argument" without recourse to "divine revelation, scripture, or religious tradition". This is akin to saying that one can marshal a "purely philosophical argument" without recourse to the world. For even if one does not accept the "Christian" revelation, scripture, or tradition, they will nevertheless accept some other mode of revealing (perhaps Heideggerian or Hegelian etc.), scripture (i.e. writing or language games), and historical tradition as a vehicle for "public" articulation. There simply is no "purely philosophical" argument devoid of an historically and linguistically enfolded tradition of articulation and argument. Indeed, the thought that there even is such a thing as a "purely philosophical argument" could only make sense as one language game and tradition amidst others; for one could only make sense of the term "purely philosophical argument" if one has already been somewhat initiated into its linguistic tradition (which is equivalent to natural law's scriptures and its various articulations of how these laws are revealed). In other words, natural law theorists adopt a "scripture", "a revelation", and "a tradition" simply by being a coherent, necessarily dogmatic language game. But how does one offer natural law as "a purely philosophical argument" without recourse to natural law's own inherent commitment to a particular language, tradition and articulation of how these laws are revealed. And if natural law accepts its own genealogy of coherence and sense, then what makes natural law's philosophical parodies of scripture, revelation, tradition, and its doctrine of pure philosophy, any different than simply a Christian argument. And at least the Christian (or any other tradition) argument doesn't fool themselves into thinking they can marshal their arguments within the ethereal castles of "pure" philosophy.
3.6.2013 | 8:35pm
Johanna Hunn says:
In a nutshell, the problem with Feser's argument is his quite strange analogy that "German" is akin to his "purely philosophical argument" of natural law (and thus non-dogmatic) while "Goethe" is the picture of the dogmatic appeal to "grace". German is, and always will be, dogmatic, if for no other reason than that German simply doesn't exist unless people like Goethe speak and write it. Feser should enlighten me as to how I should teach "German" to an "Englishman" without always and already being enfolded in the dogmatic particularities of the tradition and history of the German language AND the English language.

The great J.G. Hamann once responded to the polarizing "origin of language debates" of his time by remarking that one side (for the natural origin) steps onto the stage of the world and yells "Look, I am a man!" while the other side (for the supernatural origin) hides under a blanket and yells "Here's God!". The former are like natural law theorists appealing to their "purely philosophical arguments" while the latter are like those who appeal to "purely" supernatural arguments. Both, Hamann thought, misunderstood the nature of language by misunderstanding "nature" and the "divine". Feser simply misunderstands the nature of the language he uses, and the consequence is that he radically misunderstands Hart's essay.
3.6.2013 | 9:20pm
David Layman says:
Trying to respond to Publius, Beckwith and Payne, in 300 words! To save space: "NL" = "natural law" and "FC" = "final causation".

@ Publius: We need to account for NL. But there is no NL in a strong sense. Christians and pagans both agreed that "murder" was wrong, but the Christians insisted that "murder" included exposing babies. Now prove the pagans were wrong using NL. Buddhism says *using* intoxicating drinks is wrong. NL?

"Empirical evidence" for NL? You must not mean what I think you mean. There are broad continuities in human moral teaching, but there are EMPIRICAL differences. See above. Furthermore, the arguments for NL & FC are NOT empirical, they are "metaphysical".

Dr. Beckwith: First FC, now necessary being. How do you get THERE? Are you using Aquinas' 3rd argument or Anselm? Aquinas says you can't get something from nothing (I tend to agree), but I fail to see how that proves FC. (FIRST cause's a different animal.) Anselm proves a being "greater than which..." MUST exist. Yes. That being is empty of content, including moral content.

@Payne: "an argument that does not persuade or convince...does not reach its end..." I've been accused of not understanding a number of things, but I think FC & NL makes 3 claims: All things (acts) move to an end. This end manifests the immanent character (?) of the thing (act). This character is (reveals?) a natural law. (Did I get it right?)

I submit that "end" in the excerpt from Mr. Payne and "end" in the 1st claim just made are equivocal. Arguments have goals; that does not prove metaphysical existence of FC.
3.6.2013 | 9:36pm
Ray Ingles says:
We had a discussion about "Is and ought" back in January here on First Things: http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/09/ought-and-is/
3.6.2013 | 10:48pm
Ben Embry says:
Amen to Penelope Lopez.
3.7.2013 | 12:25am
Ken Zaretzke says:
David Bentley Hart says something mysterious in the first sentence of his article. He says that a natural law theory may be, “according to the presuppositions of the intellectual world in which it was gestated--perfectly coherent” and yet utterly unconvincing.

Maybe he means internally coherent. That makes some sense--there are ideas and intellectual systems that are internally coherent but not rationally convincing. However, by the very nature of their subject matter, natural law theorists aren’t laying claim only to internal coherence, but to truth, or as it were to *external* coherence. That’s what makes Hart’s opening statement mysterious. He trivializes natural law theory in the very first sentence of his article, and while doing so slights coherence and its key role in our ability to make rational or moral judgments.

Surprising, as well, is Hart’s intellectual deference to Nietzsche. I wish everyone could read the chapter “Immoralism” in Philippa Foot’s *Natural Goodness*. One of the blurb writers on the back cover refers to her “patient response” to Nietzsche. It’s also a devastating response--as, in my view, is Edward Feser’s response to Hart.
3.7.2013 | 12:48am
Clement Ng says:
Hart is Eastern Orthodox and I have suggested elsewhere that his rejection of the new natural law theory (and his failure to fully distinguish between the classical and new versions of natural law thinking) should be situated in the Eastern Orthodoxy tendency to dismiss Western natural theology. Does anyone know of Eastern Orthodox thinkers who advocate natural law theory, in general?
3.7.2013 | 3:09am
Bret Lythgoe says:
Dr. Feser points out that there's a distinction between the older natural theory, that depends for its logical consistency on the great ancient Greek Aristotle's metaphysical assumptions, and the new natural law theory that, not only doesn't depend on Aristotle's metaphysics, but also doesn't depend on religious, or supernatural premises, for its validity. This new natural law theory, I believe can be quite fruitful in bridging the gap between secular and religious thinkers. (But it will lead to conclusions that Dr. Feser and other advocates may not find acceptable. Such conclusions, would be animal rights and gay marriages. But these are debates for another time.) I think that Edward Feser (whose book on AQUINAS and LOCKE, published by ONEWORLD, by the way, are excellent, and I would argue all thinking people should read them) has made his case against Dr. Hart. I look forward to Dr. Hart's response.
3.7.2013 | 3:50am
Woodbridge says:
The author here is right to begin to see two different sides to Hart; a Christian heart, but a Humean mind. Theology, I like to say, typically speaks in a sort of complicated, polysemic, "double" tongue. In a way that seems to at first 1) support conventional belief. But then 2) there is often a second, more critical undertone. Hart likes to emphasize the first. But there is often a more intellectual critical voice, underneath.

In the present case, Hart seems to admit that there really isn't a smooth or rational transition to any metaphysical foundation for our beliefs; that to try to get to one, involves an "apocalyptic" break with our normal thinking, and even reason. While then too however, this " apocalyptic" break for Hart, seemingly is the Leap of Faith; does not quite mean the usual benign "leap of faith"; it means a shattering break with normalcy ... that in his usage, might not be entirely positive. If we look for a critical subtext.

As regards what is ultimate? Metaphysical first or final causes and so forth? Modern philosophy more or less gives up on trying to know them; such things are beyond what natural studies can affirm. In that sense they are beyond Physics; "meta-physical." And also supernatural: beyond or "super" nature. Wittgenstein and others suggest that since such things cannot be accessed through nature, they are ALL in effect, we might say, super-natural. And of them therefore, nothing can be reliably said.
3.7.2013 | 4:50am
Michael PS says:
Craig Payne wrote, “none of this even has to arise when discussing natural laws in the context of public order. One can recognize natural order and the laws governing the ends of something, without necessarily recognizing where (or from Whom) that order first arises.”

But Jacques Maritain insists, “Integral political science . . . is superior in kind to philosophy; to be truly complete it must have a reference to the domain of theology, and it is precisely as a theologian that St. Thomas wrote De regimine principum . . . the knowledge of human actions and of the good conduct of the human State in particular can exist as an integral science, as a complete body of doctrine, only if related to the ultimate end of the human being. . . the rule of conduct governing individual and social life cannot therefore leave the supernatural order out of account (The Things that are not Caesar’s)

In their famous 1910 exchange in Maurice Blondel’s L’Annales de philosophie chrétienne, Laberthonnière had accused Descoqs, the Neo-Scholastic defender of Charles Maurras and his movement, l’Action française of being influenced by “a false theological notion of some state of pure nature and therefore imagined the state could be self-sufficient, in the sense that it could be properly independent of any specifically Christian sense of justice.” This exchange was a fundamental moment for the Nouvelle Théologie, much as Keble’s Assize Sermon had been for the Oxford Movement.

Blondel, himself, declared that we can “find only in the spirit of the gospel the supreme and decisive guarantee of justice and of the moral conditions of peace, stability, and social prosperity” and that, to hold otherwise is to justify the liberal privatisation of religion, as irrelevant to public policy.
3.7.2013 | 10:20am
Publius says:
@ David Layman,

The proof is easy. 1. As Christians and pagans agree, murder is wrong (and prescient pagans recognizes the absolute wrongness of murder). 2. Murder is the intentional taking of innocent human life (analytic). 3. Babies are innocent human life. 4. Exposing babies is to intentionally take innocent human life. Therefore, 5, exposing innocents is wrong. The only way out of the argument is to hold that babies are in fact NOT innocent human life or to hold that murder is in fact NOT wrong. But babies are and murder is. So the argument is both sound and valid, even if not uncontroversial in every respect.

Now suppose you reply by saying that not all my premises are uncontroversial. I reply: "Why does that matter?" That critique of my argument is self-referentially incoherent. For it supposes that moral arguments only succeed if conclusions are drawn not only from sound premises but also from uncontroversial ones (please note, natural law theory only requires sound premises for moral argument and does NOT require uncontroversial ones). But the critique of natural theory or of the natural law is itself a moral argument. The critique depends upon controversial premises and reaches a controversial conclusion. Ergo, by your own standard (one I quite reject) the argument against natural law does NOT succeed--it is self-refuting.
3.7.2013 | 10:22am
Publius says:
@ Michael PS

Where is the Maritain quote from? It's quite interesting.
3.7.2013 | 11:07am
harry says:
No issue here for orthodox Christians. That there is a knowable natural law accessible to all is Scriptural:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. **So they are without excuse** …
–Rom 1:19-20

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that **what the law requires is written on their hearts** …
–Rom 2:14-15

And Traditional:

From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of man the precepts of the natural law. Then he was content to remind him of them. This was the Decalogue.
–St. Irenaeus

A full explanation of the commandments of the Decalogue became necessary in the state of sin because the light of reason was obscured and the will had gone astray.
–St. Bonaventure

While natural law is accessible to human reason, it should not surprise us if not all accept it. It should be presented to everyone in spite of this for the sake of those who will accept it, and in time our original government based upon theism and natural law will be restored. The radical secularists will no doubt be kicking and screaming as that happens. And as they scream “Intolerance!” they will continue to be oblivious to the stunning intolerance they demonstrated as they covertly arranged abortions for the minor daughters of those who considered that the murder of their grandchild, and continue to be oblivious to their lethal intolerance of the innocent child in the womb.
3.7.2013 | 11:52am
Publius says:
@ David Layman

Some NL arguments are empirical (I speak as a classical natural law theorist and not as a layman or neophyte). Just because the arguments are metaphysical doesn't mean that empirical argumentation or analysis of certain claims is ruled out of court. Aquinas holds that some things [meaning some moral truths] are the same in all both as to rectitude and knowledge. Whether or not the claim can be proven, it is an empirical claim concerning the noetic structures of all human persons. Now many critics of natural law theory assume it is proven by moral disagreement. But that's wrong. Natural law theorists (of the classical sort) hold that the sorts of truths both right for and known to all are very few in number. Moreover, we hold that the moral knowledge in question may be latent rather than fully conscious and unformulated rather than propositional in form. As well, we do not assume an internalist epistemology--i.e., we d not assume that knowledge = Cartesian certainty. One can know the wrongness of murder without knowing that one knows it. If one has true belief resulting from properly functioning cognitive faculties then one knows x (here the wrongness of murder)--and knows x whether or not one knows whether ones cognitive faculties are in fact functioning properly. All of this is compatible with considerable moral disagreement. Only critics of the position saddle natural law theory with the burden of defending universal consensus. But the critique is of a straw man.
3.7.2013 | 12:23pm
S. Quinn says:
Many of these comments would not be necessary if anyone understood Hart's writing AS A WHOLE, and did not attempt to "eviscerate" this single piece out of context.

In addition, it is astonishing to me that outside of MichaelPS, who does so remotely and indirectly, no one even refers to "Communio" theology and philosophy, the theology of Benedict XVI, Balthasar, David Schindler pere et fils - in which Hart's work finds sympathetic reverberations, nor shows any understanding of precisely what the criticism of extrincism and simple identity entails. People need to do their homework - starting by reading Trace Rowland and then moving on to the Schindlers and other Communio writers would help. m As for Balthasar, has no one here read Hart's "Beauty of the Infinite"? PS Dismissing any of this as "Nouvelle Theologie" would be a very embarrassing way of showing yourself way, way off base and out of touch.
3.7.2013 | 4:06pm
Wendy says:
When someone decides to follow "Nature," right away conservative Catholics crow with glee: "they have decided to come to 1) Catholic "natural law" and Catholicism; praise be to the LORD!" But our authors rightly reminded us that after all, the game is not over when you decide to follow nature. Because there are many different ideas of what nature wants, what nature is like.

2) Hippies for example in fact, more than anyone, tried to get "back to nature"; and to follow "Mr. Natural." While our authors very properly noted that 3) Science has yet another idea of Nature.

So the decision to be "natural" doesn't really strictly proscribe what kind of behavior should be expected from us next; not at all. Nature is incredibly vast. And it is full of many different things, after all. And no single person or credo or religion, has cornered the market on it.
3.7.2013 | 4:38pm
Publius says:
@ S. Quinn,

What's wrong with being "out of touch"? Makes it sound like being avant garde or up to date is a virtue. But being avant garde or up to date is not a virtue as such. And I suppose, depending on circumstance, being out of touch might actually be a virtue rather than a vice. But I digress.

I've read most everything Hart has written. I'm a big fan of most all of it. But that didn't stop me from cringing when reading the natural law essay. It was as compelling as Carl F. H. Henry's rant in FT from some years ago--which is to say, I find neither Henry nor Hart compelling at all on this particular matter.

At any rate, what in Hart's writing as a whole do you take to alter how he's being understood by Feser? You don't say.
3.7.2013 | 7:02pm
David Layman says:
@Publius: In your argument for the NL basis of infant-exposure-as-murder: "2. Murder is the intentional taking of innocent human life (analytic)." That is not analytic. It includes two non-self-evidential assumptions: "intentional" taking life is distinguishable from non-intentional; and "innocence" is an ethically significant category.

This is an illustration of the central problem of NL thinking: you assume concepts to be self-evident that are not: in this case, both intentionality and innocence are Christian categories (maybe also Kantian). You think they are self-evident because you are within a Christian mental world.

Re: "One can know the wrongness of murder without knowing that one knows it." I think that's nonsense.

Locke, *Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding,* Book I, Ch. II, §5: "To say a notion is imprinted on the mind, and yet at the same time to say, that the mind is ignorant of it, and never yet took notice of it, is to make this impression nothing. No proposition can be said to be in the mind which it never yet knew, which it was never yet conscious of." If people do not *know* certain moral principles as universal, then I don't know what it means to say that they know a NL.

@harry: *keep quoting.* vv. 21-28: "...they became futile in their thinking, ... They became fools...God gave them up...they did not see fit to acknowledge God...." Mankind should have NL, *but they do not*.

Your quote from ch. 2:14-15 also ends prematurely: the description is eschatological; it happens (v. 16) "on that day when... God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."
3.7.2013 | 11:56pm
Ken Zaretzke says:
Are Penelope Lopez and Johanna Hunn collaborators, or even the same person? They both use the trendy and very uncommon term “enfolded.” It doesn’t actually mean anything. And both of them are enamored of the “everything-is-dogma” philosophy, which is the same as saying that cannibal societies are as good as American society, and that Hitler wasn’t evil, he only overreacted.

By “purely philosophical argument” (another thing that Lopez and Hunn curiously have in common), Feser means an argument that doesn’t directly owe anything in its premises to theological assumptions or religious doctrine. That doesn’t mean it presupposes nothing about the existence of God or a mind-independent world. Pure philosophical argument may well presuppose the existence of God if it is the case that, as Plantinga argues, we can’t trust reason otherwise. But that is not the same thing as relying on religious beliefs in the argument. That is Feser’s point.

The evangelical presuppositionalists would no doubt agree that every viewpoint is “dogmatic,” the position that Lopez and Hunn insist on (in suspicious tandem). But it’s a bogus philosophical stance because of infinite regress. Augustine’s credo ut intelligam preceded Wittgenstein by centuries, but neither of them would endorse Lopez-Hunn whateverism.

Hunn’s second paragraph might be the kind of thing that passes muster in Gender Studies or Lit Crit. Beyond those narrow precincts, it fails to impress. Furthermore, I doubt that J.G. Hamann meant anything as wooly as what Hunn attributes to him. The famous German thinkers of the past aren't *that* spacey.
3.8.2013 | 3:01am
Woodbridge says:
Briefly put:

Having raised the language-based argument, I'd still have to disagree that if all arguments - Religious and Philosophical - are say, "discourse," if they are nodes in one world or discourse or another - then all arguments are therefore "dogma." Or I disagree that therefore, we should accept (say, religious) "dogma."

Granted, as I said, both metaphysics and religion are examples - at one level of analysis - of discourse traditions, discursive formations. But if they are, then in a sense, I would simply condemn both. For being all too dogmatic, in point of fact. For belonging to all-too-human advocacy/language cartels.

What moderns advocate, is abandoning all forms of knowledge with "ultimate" claims altogether; philosophical OR religious. But not to give in, to becoming attached to one all-too-human mutual-admiration society, or another. The point would not be that we should attach ourself to one dogmatic tradition, or another. Rather? Without ascribing any particular "ultimate end" to nature, we should attend to nature in all its manifold variety and indecisiveness; and without ultimate foundation.
3.8.2013 | 3:01am
Michael PS says:
Publius

The quotation from Maritain is from his 1927 book, "The Things that are not Caesar's", largely written in opposition to the "Catholic Atheism" of Charles Maurras

What united such disparate thinkers as Maritain, Blondel, Maréchal, the Dominicans, Chenu and Congar and the Jesuits, Lubac and Daniélou was the rejection of the notion that the natural and the supernatural have utterly separate ends, in and of themselves, as the Neo-Scholastics taught
3.8.2013 | 12:40pm
harry says:
David Layman wrote: *keep quoting.* vv. 21-28: ... Mankind should have NL, *but they do not*.

Rom 1:18-29 makes evident that those who misuse their free will by choosing to deny the law written in their hearts by the God Who makes Himself known to them through His creation, suffer the negative consequences of doing so. God's Providence and justice arranged for this result because "they are without excuse."

David Layman wrote: Your quote from ch. 2:14-15 also ends prematurely: the description is eschatological; it happens (v. 16) "on that day when... God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

The Church Fathers appear to be unanimous in their belief that there is a "natural law" written on the hearts of all humanity. That humanity will be held accountable for their faithfulness/unfaithfulness to natural law at the last judgment testifies to the existence of this inscription and our accountability to it. What is your point?
3.8.2013 | 2:02pm
Sam says:
So many of these criticisms against Feser are confused at a deep level. Whether there is a rationally knowable moral order has nothing to do with whether people actually acknowledge that order, any more than whether there are knowable laws of nature has anything to whether people acknowledge them. Hart repeatedly claims that, because people won't be convinced by Natural Law reasoning, such reasoning must be futile.

So what? Eratosthenes's proofs of that the Earth is a sphere won't convince members of the Flat Earth society. This proves nothing about either whether we can know that the Earth is a sphere or whether the Flat Earth hypothesis is true. It is a rank error to take the possibility of irresolvable disagreement as evidence that one or other of the propositions being disputed is indemonstrable or unknowable.

Also, I must say that Penelope Lopez's comment confuses at length the putative relationships between philosophy and revelation, language and thought, and many other things besides.

She writes: "He accepts the strange presupposition that one can make a "purely philosophical argument" without recourse to "divine revelation, scripture, or religious tradition"."

So I cannot make a philosophical argument that, say, change is best analyzed as the reduction of act to potency without appealing to divine revelation, scripture or religious tradition? How on earth, then, did Christian philosophers manage to critique and extend pagan philosophy, given that they drew out their philosophical implications without appealing to "revelation, scripture, or tradition"? How on earth did Aquinas manage to engage Averroes on the nature of the mind, and do so starting from the same philosophical premises, given that they had distinct conceptions of "revelation, scripture and tradition?

Either your thesis is obviously false, or you understand "revelation, scripture, and tradition" in a way that is so broad that it reduces to vacuity.
3.8.2013 | 3:05pm
Fr. John Cox says:
It seems to me that this article and the ensuing discussion have simultaneously called Hart's article into question and demonstrated his fundamental assertion. Namely, that NL is not an effective tool in public discourse (I am assuming that Hart supposes engagement in public discourse contains at least the hope of effecting outcomes). This is as intelligent a combox as I have read and yet the only thing most everyone can agree on is that no one else knows what they are talking about. If a group of intelligent Christian people cannot agree amongst themselves as to what NL is or requires nor whether it is legitimate category, despite the qualifications, rejoinders, etc., how on earth do you expect regular folks or, God help us, politicians to grasp NL sufficiently to embrace or resist its implications for public policy? Hart contends that NL isn't useful for shifting public opinion and I think this discussion, as fascinating as it is, demonstrates that while he may have been wrong he is also right.
3.8.2013 | 4:21pm
Publius says:
Fr. Cox,

The ensuing discussion does not demonstrate Hart's point because it's not a debate about the natural law but rather about natural law theory. These are distinct. And debate about the latter has no implications concerning the former.

The assumption in the preceding discussion is all too frequently that a natural law argument is a natural law theory argument or that a natural law argument is necessarily explicitly so. But neither of these need be the case. One can make a natural law argument without mentioning natural law theory or using natural law phraseology. I should have thought that was obvious.

Moreover, you assume again (as does Hart and a number of others) that the purpose of natural law reflection is persuasion in the public realm. That may one possible use of natural law claims. But, quite obviously, the purpose of natural law and natural law reflection is not first and foremost persuasion.

Why should natural lawyers be held to the standard of sophists?
3.8.2013 | 4:33pm
Publius says:
@ David Layman,

You seem to be employing "analytic" in an idiosyncratic sense. Whether or not the meaning or range of some of the terms in the definition of murder happen to be controverted is neither here nor there--the definition of murder as the deliberate or intentional taking of innocent human life is still analytic. Analytic does not mean self-evident or uncontroversial or even trivial. I should say pace Hume . . . But perhaps that's the point. You seem to be employing Hume's understanding of analytic truth. But according to the Humean scheme analytic propositions are entirely trivial. All non-analytic propositions that have any substance are synthetic and these, for Hume, are all matters of experience. Thus, following the Humean account, you should throw out (as Hume does) notions of the self, other minds, an external world, the law of causality, God, etc. . . Of course, I think Hume defined "analytic" and "synthetic" as he did to show that empiricism is reductio ad absurdum false. But that's another story.
3.8.2013 | 5:32pm
harry says:
Hello, Fr. John Cox,

St. Augustine's commentary on Psalm LVIII discusses natural law. A few excerpts:

Inasmuch as the hand of our Maker in our very hearts hath written this truth, “That which to thyself thou wouldest not have done, do not thou to another.” Of this truth, even before the law was given, no one was suffered to be ignorant, in order that there might be some rule whereby might be judged even those to whom the Law had not been given. … there hath been written also on tablets that which in their hearts they read not. For it was not that they had it not written, but read it they would not. … Who has taught thee, that thou wouldest have no other man draw near thy wife? .. that thou wouldest not have a theft committed upon thee? … Come, if thou art not willing to suffer these things, art thou by any means the only man? Dost thou not live in the fellowship of mankind? … Is theft a good thing? No! I ask, is adultery a good thing? All cry, No! Is man-slaying a good thing? All cry that they abhor it. … But hear ye the Psalm. “If truly therefore justice ye speak, judge right things, ye sons of men.” Be it not a justice of lips, but also of deeds. …

You asked, “If a group of intelligent Christian people cannot agree … ?” Intelligent Christian people have not agreed on many essentials for five-hundred years. Orthodox Catholics are in agreement with the ancient belief of the Church and therefore with each other that natural law is knowable and that humanity is bound by it. Augustine makes this truth plain. To deny it is to excuse depravity, which then becomes “unknowable” also.
3.8.2013 | 8:29pm
Fr. John Cox says:
Publius,

Being a bear of very little brain I am trying to make a rather prosaic point. Hart says NL isn't much use in public debate. I take him to mean *not* that one cannot make one's point using NL but that it isn't useful as a means of converting others to one's own convictions. This seems to me manifestly true not only because the epistemic and metaphysical presuppositions people bring to the discussion are not remotely common but also because the NL isn't perspicuous, especially if the existence of God is not a shared belief. In this context, the context of effecting outcomes, it seems to me that whether or not the argument is persuasive makes all the difference. That has nothing to do with whether or not NL is true but that wasn't Hart's point was it?

Harry,

I didn't say anything about whether or not I believe NL to be a true. That said, I do think the work of Paul Davies and other physicists on emergent complexity poses a question as to the perceptibility of the rationality of the world that NL has yet to answer.
3.8.2013 | 9:09pm
David Layman says:
@Publius:

"Analytic" idiosyncratic? Can you point me to an online document that explains what natural law theorists mean by "analytic"?

BTW, I'm no expert on Hume, but certainly he affirms that mathematical concepts are analytic. I wouldn't call those trivial. For what it's worth, this discussion leaves me less inclined than ever to be persuaded by natural law theory. It seems that every term, concept, and logical strategy has some unique meaning that only natural law theorists grasp. Something very strange is going on, and I cannot put my finger on it.
3.9.2013 | 1:43am
harry says:
Hi again, Fr. Cox,

I wasn't suggesting you didn't believe in NL. ;o)

As for Davies' “emergent complexity,” I have spent most of my adult life developing and maintaining technology, mostly software but hardware also to some extent, so I have witnessed the way the otherwise astute can be bamboozled by experts in esoteric matters who want to further their own agenda. This was in regard to experts blowing smoke about leading edge technology in my case, but this happens in other areas as well.

Experts promote multiverse theory without a shred of evidence of the existence of other universes or any hope of ever obtaining any. Their agenda is ideological. Countless universes make it seem more plausible that the virtually impossible actually happened and one of them–ours–mindlessly, accidentally and extremely luckily for us “big banged” into existence not just in a state other than maximum entropy, but one that could eventually support life. Davies admits in *God and the New Physics* that only an “infinitesimal fraction” of the possible initial states of the Universe could have been anything but total disorder. Good batteries in your smoke detector?

It is the same with the notion that the astounding functional complexity of life consisting of digital-information-based nanotechnology light years beyond anything modern science knows how to build from scratch mindlessly emerged. Experts – with a straight face – assure us that this is the case. This is world class smoke-blowing for the sake of an ideological agenda. Objectivity enables one to see that there is no “question as to the perceptibility of the rationality of the world” for NL to answer. St. Paul's remark rings truer now than ever before. We have no excuse for not perceiving God in the things that have been made.
3.9.2013 | 5:07am
Michael PS says:
Publius and David Layman

“Analytical” is by no means a straight-forward concept, as Quine shows in his “Two Dogmas of Empiricism,” involving, as it does, the meaning of “synonymous” and interchangeability.

Thus, “all bachelors are unmarried” is an analytical proposition, only if “bachelor” and “unmarried man” are interchangeable. But are they? Consider the proposition “’Bachelor’ has fewer than ten letters.” It would seem that the proposition “’bachelor’ and ‘unmarried man’ are synonymous” in fact, depends on empirical features of the language.

Again, two terms may share the same extension (e.g. “creatures with hearts” and “creatures with kidneys,” but, unless they do so necessarily, “all creatures with hearts have kidneys” is not an analytical proposition. And how do we ascertain necessity?
3.9.2013 | 6:01am
Michael PS says:
Harry

You quote St Augustine as saying, “Is theft a good thing? No!” But Rollin tells us, “Theft was permitted in Sparta. It was severely punished among the Scythians. The reason for this difference is obvious: the law, which alone determines the right to property and the use of goods, granted a private individual no right, among the Scythians, to the goods of another person, whereas in Sparta the contrary was the case.”

Now, we can say that theft means an “unlawful taking,” but what is unlawful cannot be known from reason. Speaking of the same Law of Moses that gives us the Decalogue, Rollin notes that “Nothing is more common than the existence of similar rights to the goods of another person; thus, God has not only given the poor the power to gather grapes in the vineyards and to glean in the fields and to take away whole sheaves but has also granted to every passer-by without distinction the freedom to enter as often as he likes the vineyard of another person and to eat as many grapes as he wants, in spite of the owner of the vineyard. God Himself gives the first reason for this. It is that the land of Israel belonged to Him and that the Israelites enjoyed possession of it only on that onerous condition.” But this is not part of the moral law, but of the civil law of the Jewish commonwealth, albeit given by God.

Again, remarriage after divorce is adultery in the Christian dispensation, but not the Mosaic and the distinction between lawful and unlawful killing raises difficult questions.
3.9.2013 | 10:40am
Publius says:
@ David Layman,

I may have been unclear. I meant to say that YOUR usage of "analytic" seemed idiosyncratic. I was employing the term NOT in some specialized sense unique to natural law theory but in the sense it is used by mainstream, contemporary analytic philosophers. In standard philosophic argumentation, then the premise in the argument above was indeed analytic (and would be represented as such in formalized arguments).

As it happens, I think Hume holds mathematical propositions are utterly trivial because (as he sees it) tautological (which is what he means by analytic). Mathematical propositions are not, for him, substantial or about anything. They have no referent. They are on par with "Bachelors are unmarried men."

Now I quite disagree with Hume. Most theorists who write about rights hold something like this: If X has a claim right vis-a-vis Y, then Y has an obligation corresponding to that right. If this statement is true, then it may be analytic. But please note that the statement is also NOT self-evident. Nor is their consensus about whether such rights exist or whether rights impose obligations or what a right is. So here we have an analytic statement about which there is controversy.

When I say you (David Layman) use "analytic" in an idiosyncratic way it's in view of your response to my post--in which you say that my statement concerning murder cannot be analytic because it employs controverted terms about which there is therefore no consensus. But no major contemporary philosopher so understands "analytic." In fact, you seem to be conflating "analytic" with a popular (but I think misguided) understanding of "self-evident." A proposition can certainly be analytic without being self-evident and while including "controversial" terms.
3.9.2013 | 11:50am
Paige says:
I think it worth pointing out that Feser's article here--which is too long and too heated--simply does not address Hart's argument at all. Feser is defending the place of traditional Natural Law in public discourse; Hart is attacking the attempt to create a "neutral" Natural Law discourse that does not acknowledge either supernatural or metaphysical principles that are not conformable to modern secular reason. All of Hart's remarks from the second paragraph onward refer to the impossibility of defeating modernity on terms dictated by modernity. That's why he says that Hume's argument is "formally correct" (not intrinsically correct). That means it conclusions follow from its premises. But Hart at the beginning of the piece rejects those premises. It's true Hart is not a two-tier Thomist, but Feser has gone off on a wild tangent and completely lost the thread of the discussion.
3.9.2013 | 12:05pm
Publius says:
@ Fr. Cox,

I've read wide and deep in Hart. But when it comes to this latest piece, I confess that I'm at a loss as to his purpose. Most of his points derive from secular and neo-Calvinist critiques of natural law that are quite old and have been adequately answered. And Hart's essay pretends as if these critiques of natural law were never replied to. It's as if Hart and others think these critiques were new or have never been heard or have never been engaged. Which is profoundly unfair.

Now if we distinguish the natural law itself from natural law theory, then its possible to affirm a limited degree of universal moral knowledge (no natural law theorist thinks all or even most of the natural law is known to all) in the midst of different and incompatible metaphysical and epistemic assumptions.

In fact, most of the critiques of natural law theory here prove too much. If they held, they would entail the impossibility of moral knowledge per se, moral argumentation, and moral persuasion. Most of these arguments have been employed by cultural and moral relativists. And there is a deep logical connection if moral relativists are right. But if moral relativists are wrong, then the critiques of natural law here and in Hart go way too far.

Finally, relatedly, Hart's argument can't be that natural law as such as fine but natural law as a persuasive tool fails if he genuinely affirms the naturalistic fallacy as framed by Hume. As I note above, the upshot of that fallacy is that moral obligation (and normatively more generally) is not among the things that are. The is-ought dichotomy means there are no "oughts." But then no account of morality (save that which says there is no such thing) is any good. I suspect Hume meant this entailment. His epistemology includes the conclusion that the law of causality, other minds, and an external world are all nonsense ideas--and morality too. So why invoke Hume? I have no idea.
3.9.2013 | 12:20pm
David Layman says:
@Michael PS

thanks for the pointer on "analytical".
3.9.2013 | 2:03pm
Publius says:
@ Michael PS,

I would be careful about Rollin here. There is a distinction permitted behavior and behavior viewed as morally licit. Moreover, it's just not the case that thd Spartans failed to treat theft as good or always permitted. In point of fact, what we have is less the permission of theft as such and more the varied instantiation of a common norm. Aristotle held the Spartans (and everyone else) knew the wrongness of theft.

Julius Caeser held that the Germans did not know the wrongness of theft. But MacIntyre points out that Caeser is a less than reliable witness when it came to the ancient Germans.

But here St. Thomas follows Caeser--though it's not entirely clear if he thinks the Germans did not know the norm outright or did not know that the norm applied outside their social group.

Just here's a problem in this discussion. Critics of natural law keep insisting that natural lawyers carry more water than their theory demands. In fact, some natural lawyers hold that the natural knowledge of the wrongness of theft, and of other things right or wrong for all, can be blocked in some individuals or groups.

Aquinas seems to hold as compatible with his theory the claim that Germans failed to know the wrongness of theft or got the norm against it badly wrong. Why are natural law critics then using cultural variation concerning the norm against theft as a critique of natural law theory? Seems to be another attack on a strawman.
3.11.2013 | 12:00am
Publius says:
@ Michael PS,

I disagree with Quine about most things. But whether or not one accepts him here, there is a fairly broad consensus among contemporary analytic philosophers as to what it means, at least broadly speaking, for a proposition to be analytic. Thus, A. P. Martinich and Rob Koons, though they might disagree about just what propositions are analytic would nevertheless agree what about what it means for a proposition to be analytic.
3.11.2013 | 4:53am
Michael PS says:
Publius

I do not think you are doing justice to Rollin’s argument.

As his use of the OT gleaning laws makes clear, he is arguing that property rights themselves are a matter of pure positive law and the prohibition of theft can only be understood as a requirement to respect those laws.

Thus, Mirabeau says, “Property is a social creation. The laws not only protect and maintain property; they bring it into being; they determine its scope and the extent that it occupies in the rights of the citizens” In this, he agrees with St Thomas, who says “The possession of all things in common is ascribed to the natural law; not in the sense that the natural law dicates that all things should be possessed in common, and that nothing should be possessed as one's own; but in the sense that no division of possessions is made by the natural law. This division arose from human agreement which belongs to the positive law.. .Hence, the ownership of possessions is not contrary to the natural law, but a super-addition (adinventio) thereto devised by human reason. [ST 2.2, q. 66, art. 2 ad 1]
3.11.2013 | 8:00am
harry says:
Michael PS

"... the ownership of possessions is not contrary to the natural law ..."

Then in the case of one possessing something where that is not contrary to natural law, it must then be contrary to natural law to steal it from him.
3.11.2013 | 1:55pm
The problem is that useful as Thomas Aquinas has been, and though his philosophy - Thomism - was until recently the semi-official philosophy of the Church, still most moderns no longer regard Thomism as literally, the answer to everything. Useful as Thomism is, in trying to reconcile say, Religion and Reason, today we have long since moved on. To say, Analytic Philosophy.

Which by the way, is not really "analytic" in the old sense. But seems to tentatively accept many various assertions; but only tentatively. Not giving a lot of credence to original foundational truths. Not as much as it looks to see if, given a given statement, and accepting it tentatively as a subject of analysis - if not absolute truth - then what would analytically follow.

Analytic philosophy therefore, could deal with local, as opposed to "ultimate" causes and purposes and so forth. We decide it is natural and good say, to look for food - just because our body is hungry. There is here no "ultimate" consideration about Life in general, or some other thing.

We are dealing with local, contingent causes and effects, motivations. And minor LOCAL "ought"s: we "ought" to go get some food soon, because we are hungry.

This might eventually though, beyond Hume, get to something LIKE morality; we "ought" to help others say, because they can also help us, etc.. Yet most more ultimate considerations and speculations and motivations, are interesting, but all too speculative. And in any case, we should not dogmatize too much about what kind of morality, if any, nature indicates; since dogmatic answers in general seem far to attached to the sound of their own voice.
3.11.2013 | 5:46pm
Paige says:
Sorry to repeat myself, but it remains the case that Feser is attacking a position that Hart never advanced. Nowhere does he agree with Hume's principles. He is referring to the formal consistency of Hume's argument WITHIN THE MODERN VISION OF NATURE. Why Feser misses this obvious point, I cannot guess.
3.11.2013 | 7:09pm
Woodbridge says:
Paige: I too had the impression that Feser was "attacking a position that Hart never advanced." Though the classic style in theology - and in Hart - is equivocation and ambiguity. So it might be hard to say exactly what Hart was "really" saying. If anything.

Though if anything? Among other things, I had the impression that Hart might have in part been simply hinting at the (alleged) impotency of at least a Scientific/Humean view, to get from "is" to "ought." A view which he seems to hint, invalidates most science-based moral theories. Of our time and all times. Here I think his analysis is partially wrong. Or in any case? Inability to come up with "Grand Moral Narratives" and judgements would be a virtue, as far as moderns are concerned. So Hume's ideas there are still fairly good - and by the way, consistent with modernity and "post" modernity too.

But? Hart ALSO offered a view of ancient/ ecclesiastical morality on the other hand, as well. As perhaps an alternative to science. And while his view of THAT is superifically more positive, Hart also hints that such a morality involves a perhaps lamentable, "apcalyptic" (/schizophrenic?) break, with normal sense.

So I'd read Hart's final, overall message, as being mildly pro-Church and for traditional religious morality; but hinting at problems with both the traditional Church views, and science-based moral schemes, in their application within Natural Law theory.

That would be my rough idea of what Hart was about; though by the way I think Hart is not quite right in his judgements here. Still, he raised important historical questions.

And though Feser's neo-Thomism might not have been entirely fair to Hart, he was right to continue the dialogue in this important subject; noting at least a few as-yet unresolved questions behind, if not directly inside, Hart's ideas. Questioning the nature of the relationship between ancient clerical Thomism, and Humean modern theories. A major question that Hart did not adequately address.
3.12.2013 | 10:50am
Publius says:
@ WoodbridgeGoodman,

Concerning the meaning of "analytic" in "analytic philosophy," see the introduction to Persons: Human and Divine, Peter VanInwagen and Dean Zimmerman, eds. I think you'll find their understanding (one shared by the contributors, including folks such as Al Plantinga) different from one the you convey above. Rob Koons Realism Regained is a work in and an argument for metaphysical and moral realism. And Rob, who is a first rate philosopher, would characterize his work as analytic.
3.12.2013 | 2:44pm
Publius says:
@ Michael PS,

St. Thomas also says that theft is contrary to a general precept of the natural law, which in no case fails. And he holds that the purloining of the Egyptians would have been contrary to natural law had it not been directly commanded by God who ultimately owns all things. What the natural law holds (as an immediate precept, according to St. Thomas--which is to say as a precept that is not known on the basis of anything else; i.e., as an underived but warranted rational belief) is that if P belongs to Y then it is contrary to the lex naturale for X to take P from Y without Y's permission. That's uncontroversial.

In these debates, we should keep in mind St. Thomas's proposition that the first precepts of the natural law do not admit of demonstration. A number of the posts in this thread are asking natural lawyers to demonstrate just what natural law says cannot be demonstrated. You can't demonstrate the first principles of moral reasoning anymore than you can demonstrate geometric axioms or the law of non-contradiction. But that doesn't mean these things are unknown. First principles of ethics are known without reflection or demonstration just as geometric axioms or the rules of deductive logic. Someone else who employed this pseudonym echoed St. Thomas's position here in the Federalist essays.
3.14.2013 | 11:23pm
Thaddeus says:
Hart's article can be summed by in these words by Aquinas: The rational will "unless it is cured by God's grace, follows its private good, on the account of the corruption of nature " (S.T. I-II 109. 3c). Thus, natural law must be articulated and promoted as a means to such curing, not as some self-sufficient "public reason" to preserve the status-quo or put a band-aid on it, a status-quo which is, at best, a God-unpleasing religious pluralism, and at worst, apostasy and flight from God in the people, with a psychopathic/satanic ethos among the elites.
3.18.2013 | 6:00am
Wendy says:
Thad:

At the same time as he values Grace and so forth, Aquinas seems to value Reason greatly too. He uses logic well in his many arguments. And he is often considered not "only" a Theologian, but also a (rational) Philosopher.

And that is good. If Reason can go astray without Religion, quite possibly however, the reverse is true as well, for Augustine and Aquinas: Religion, without the help of Reason, creates huge problems and perversions as well.

Fortunately for us all, the Bible itself embraced Reason: "Come let us reason together," etc..

Does this address anything in your "public reason"? Not sure. No need here to attack rationality iitself, though.
4.29.2013 | 11:42am
David says:
E. Feser wrote: "Now Hart characterizes natural law theory in general as committed to the reality of final causes, indicates that he affirms their reality himself, but then (bizarrely) appeals to Hume’s fact/value dichotomy as if it were obviously consistent with affirming final causes." This seems to be a main criticism of Hart in the above essay; it is, however, simply wrong. It is, to the contrary, indeed logically possible for a purpose or final cause to exist which might remain unknown or even unknowable to pure philosophical inquiry in the manner of classical foundationalism. Nothing bizarre or inconsistent about it! As per Eastern Christianity there might be divine realities that are simply mysterious, or if knowable to us are known only to the pure in heart who love God rather than via syllogistic process of discursive reasoning as its "foundation." Or as the Genesis narrative has it, knowledge of the good might be for us a part of the fall rather than a part of our created or natural state (this point was made by Bonhoeffer who called natural law "the devil's first lie"). What seems to this reader more ironic than anything in Hart's discussion is purportedly religiously neutral intellectual defense of a modern religious dogma (1871) of traditionalist Roman Catholicism claiming what can be known non-religiously about the good on the foundational basis of reason -non-religiously!- occurring in the face of virtual universal rejection of this notion not only among contemporary "pagan" philosophers, but also among philosophical theists who are Protestant, Jewish, Islamic, Orthodox Christian. Not to mention Roman Catholic philosophers who reject Natural Law Theory, despite this being labeled as dissent by traditionalists. This is why traditionalists so often seem to resort to claiming their opponents "must" either be committing some sort of "logical fallacy" (or a HOST of them, as alleged in Feser here) or they are simply not morally decent enough to get the intellectual point (also per Aquinas, and reflected by RC traditionalists in the comment section). -David H (not D.B.H.)
4.30.2013 | 3:02pm
Tyler says:
I would like the legal community to embrace "old school" natural law theory but I believe it will be difficult to convince lawyers that their current understanding of law is based on a Modern/Humean metaphysics. Most people today are either unaware of, or they outright deny that there is even a study of, metaphysics. And if the do acknowledge the study of metaphysics they typically refer to the fruits of this study as mere opinion. If you can teach lawyers that the current legal theory, such as Rawls, rests on metaphysical assumptions I am all for it and, indeed, I applaud the efforts...however, I just won't be holding my breath.
4.30.2013 | 7:04pm
Tyler says:
My beef is not with writers like Feser or Hart but with writers who fail to acknowledge that natural law theory does not provide the theoretical underpinnings for law in the 21st century (although I would like that to be the case). The general public assumes that natural law theory undergirds the law system, and it is to their demise when they have to deal with that law regime that is not so undergirded. In fact, the absolute horror of law in the 21st century is that it is a house of cards - anything goes, and at any time the whole house can come crumbling down.
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